June 15, 201014 yr 10-15 years their maybe no more airlines unless you are willing to pay 800-2k a ticket.
June 16, 201014 yr I think some people are just wondering what the market could be with normal conditions This is correct, but it's also the very point of dispute for MD88. He maintains that the conditions at CVG never were "abnormal". His contention is that "highest fares" does not entail "very high fares", and that "very high fares" never existed at CVG. I found some numbers, which maybe aren't the most informative, but the most obvious reading of them clearly contradicts MD88's claim. So far, I haven't seen the numbers he is using.
June 16, 201014 yr Did Delta require the higher pricing to make the CVG hub viable, or were they just doing it because they could? Lowering prices would have brought CVG more business, but would have lowered per passenger revenue. The question may be, does the equilibrium point between passenger volume and fare level support a sustainable hub operation? Hubs must have major fixed costs.
June 16, 201014 yr "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 16, 201014 yr ^ How is this not on topic? It's directly relevant to all the news that has been going on with CVG and Delta for the past many years, including very recent news. Did Delta require the higher pricing to make the CVG hub viable, or were they just doing it because they could? Lowering prices would have brought CVG more business, but would have lowered per passenger revenue. The question may be, does the equilibrium point between passenger volume and fare level support a sustainable hub operation? Hubs must have major fixed costs. This is the open question. I don't doubt that the level of past service was too much to sustain. Is the current level of service too much? The point is, we don't know, because service and prices were inflated for so long that there's been a shift in the culture, and one that cannot be simply reversed. MD88 and perhaps MTS maintain that there never was anything abnormal going on, so what you see is what you get, in terms of O&D at CVG. Their claim is stronger because they say we know the answer to your questions definitively. The rest of us are saying it's hard/impossible to tell, but the numbers you get for O&D are definitely a bit lower than they would be without the airport's history. We just don't know how much lower.
June 16, 201014 yr ^ How is this not on topic? It's directly relevant to all the news that has been going on with CVG and Delta for the past many years, including very recent news. Did Delta require the higher pricing to make the CVG hub viable, or were they just doing it because they could? Lowering prices would have brought CVG more business, but would have lowered per passenger revenue. The question may be, does the equilibrium point between passenger volume and fare level support a sustainable hub operation? Hubs must have major fixed costs. This is the open question. I don't doubt that the level of past service was too much to sustain. Is the current level of service too much? The point is, we don't know, because service and prices were inflated for so long that there's been a shift in the culture, and one that cannot be simply reversed. MD88 and perhaps MTS maintain that there never was anything abnormal going on, so what you see is what you get, in terms of O&D at CVG. Their claim is stronger because they say we know the answer to your questions definitively. The rest of us are saying it's hard/impossible to tell, but the numbers you get for O&D are definitely a bit lower than they would be without the airport's history. We just don't know how much lower. I reiterate... we are talking about AVERAGE FARES. There are many reasons why the average fare at CVG is/was higher. One reason is certain stage lengths of certain flights. For instance, back in the day CVG had alot of very short haul flights - some that were flown with mainline equipment. CVG to LEX, DAY, SDF, CMH, EVV, HSV... Now believe it or not, there are actually PAX that fly DAY to CVG or LEX to CVG as O&D. These fares are typically exhorbitantly high. So when talking about average fares (and CVG's were high), these city pairs will skew the average. What really needs to addressed to be accurate is weighted averages. I have some info, some of which is probably proprietary which shows that average fares at CVG fluctuated wildly these past 10-years. In fact there are some years where the avg. CVG fare is on par with CLE, CLT, EWR and PIT (before it was dehubbed). Then there were a couple of years where it was stratospheric. What's also interesting is that CLE has higher average fares than DTW and MSP for the most part. CAK and DAY do indeed have low avg fares as you migh suspect with CMH and IND somewhere in between. Now, when delaing with SPECIFIC city pairs, not the average of all pairs, CVG's affordability was on par with other airports. However, I will admit that the percentage of "cheap" seats on some pairs was relatively low, but then so was the amount of "premium" seats actually purchased. So keep in mind we are talking about averages.
June 16, 201014 yr ^ How is this not on topic? It's directly relevant to all the news that has been going on with CVG and Delta for the past many years, including very recent news. Did Delta require the higher pricing to make the CVG hub viable, or were they just doing it because they could? Lowering prices would have brought CVG more business, but would have lowered per passenger revenue. The question may be, does the equilibrium point between passenger volume and fare level support a sustainable hub operation? Hubs must have major fixed costs. A discussion about Cleveland's Airport and why people travel to God knows where vs. where God travels to is relevant to this thread how? "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 16, 201014 yr ^ CLE (and other airports) have been mentioned, but only in comparison to CVG. More specifically, in comparison of prices and O&D traffic, which is exactly what's at issue behind Delta's maneuvering at CVG. MD88, I'm glad you've finally gone a step beyond just flat-out stating "there's never been a significant difference." However, without seeing numbers, all I can do is go on unscientific data based on my own and others' experiences, plus the data I was able to find which considers only per-mile costs. Your explanation of why per-mile cost is not the best indicator of average fares is a priori plausible, which is why never committed myself to the data as "proof" of anything, just the best evidence available. Still, the data does jibe with my personal experience, and that of many other people I know (and many others on this board). It seems pretty weird to me that I don't see anyone on here from Cincinnati saying "ehh, the fares were never that bad." Forgive me for finding it quite implausible that we all arrived at the same statistically inaccurate conclusion, time and again, as we accumulated hours on the road for apparently meager savings.
June 16, 201014 yr ^ CLE (and other airports) have been mentioned, but only in comparison to CVG. More specifically, in comparison of prices and O&D traffic, which is exactly what's at issue behind Delta's maneuvering at CVG. MD88, I'm glad you've finally gone a step beyond just flat-out stating "there's never been a significant difference." However, without seeing numbers, all I can do is go on unscientific data based on my own and others' experiences, plus the data I was able to find which considers only per-mile costs. Your explanation of why per-mile cost is not the best indicator of average fares is a priori plausible, which is why never committed myself to the data as "proof" of anything, just the best evidence available. Still, the data does jibe with my personal experience, and that of many other people I know (and many others on this board). It seems pretty weird to me that I don't see anyone on here from Cincinnati saying "ehh, the fares were never that bad." Forgive me for finding it quite implausible that we all arrived at the same statistically inaccurate conclusion, time and again, as we accumulated hours on the road for apparently meager savings. O.K., the economist side of me will apologize for implying that your savings was meager. Obviously if you drive 125 miles to catch a flight the savings is more than likely worth it. However, the meaning of savings is relative. This is price elasticity. For some, $50.00 might justify a drive up to DAY, while for others $300.00 is chump change. In the end it all comes down to the market that the airline (Delta in this case) is trying to capture. I do know from the data that I've seen (which I stated above) the avg fares at CVG have been all over the place for the past decade.
June 16, 201014 yr ^ CLE (and other airports) have been mentioned, but only in comparison to CVG. More specifically, in comparison of prices and O&D traffic, which is exactly what's at issue behind Delta's maneuvering at CVG. That's pushing it (as the relevance of Cleveland instead of other regional airports impacts on CVG isn't really "with topic" about news from CVG) but I'll let it slide and take its course. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 17, 201014 yr Metro Daily O&D total total O&D O&D % # of Airports New York 127,801 51,883,694 23,131,981 44.60% 6 airports Los Angeles 104,723 34,789,171 18,954,863 54.50% 4 airports Chicago 86,821 39,281,585 15,714,601 40.00% 2 airports Miami 79,636 31,262,044 14,414,116 46.10% 3 airports Las Vegas 73,138 20,224,090 13,237,978 65.50% San Francisco 68,838 22,139,378 12,459,678 56.30% 2 airports Orlando 68,040 18,211,975 12,315,240 67.60% 2 airports Dallas/Ft.Worth 59,577 31,149,065 10,783,437 34.60% 2 airports Atlanta 56,645 43,008,154 10,252,745 23.80% Phoenix 54,040 18,968,897 9,781,240 51.60% Denver 53,747 24,337,554 9,728,207 40.00% Washington 52,832 19,915,669 9,562,592 48.00% 2 airports Boston 44,673 12,068,312 8,085,813 67.00% Seattle 43,376 14,787,443 7,851,056 53.10% Philadelphia 41,860 14,878,298 7,576,660 50.90% Houston 39,021 23,606,848 7,062,801 29.90% 2 airports Tampa 39,021 9,348,162 7,062,801 75.60% Baltimore 38,901 10,001,992 7,041,081 70.30% San Diego 36,242 8,171,820 6,559,802 80.30% Minneapolis 34,399 16,173,119 6,226,219 38.50% Detroit 33,128 15,715,346 5,996,168 38.20% Salt Lake City 22,696 9,988,837 4,107,976 41.10% St. Louis 22,361 6,258,829 4,047,341 64.70% Portland 22,144 6,116,995 4,008,064 65.50% Sacramento 20,175 4,356,274 3,651,675 83.80% Kansas City 19,973 4,685,648 3,615,113 77.20% Charlotte 19,562 17,215,648 3,540,722 20.60% Raleigh/Durham 18,585 4,291,234 3,363,885 78.40% San Jose 18,581 4,039,922 3,363,161 83.30% New Orleans 18,378 3,977,881 3,326,418 83.60% Austin 17,189 3,915,683 3,111,209 79.50% Pittsburgh 16,913 3,922,714 3,061,253 78.00% San Antonio 16,777 3,830,211 3,036,637 79.30% Nashville 16,751 4,329,413 3,031,931 70.00% Indianapolis 16,377 4,155,161 2,964,237 71.30% Riverside 14,623 3,302,863 2,646,763 80.10% 2 airports Columbus 13,328 3,028,930 2,412,368 79.60% Jacksonville 12,741 2,835,324 2,306,121 81.30% Milwaukee 12,541 3,560,224 2,269,921 63.80% Hartford 12,099 3,056,490 2,189,919 71.70% Cleveland 11,767 4,719,504 2,129,827 45.10% Buffalo 11,662 2,536,000 2,110,822 83.20% Providence 10,617 2,168,664 1,921,677 88.60% Norfolk 9,343 2,140,859 1,691,083 79.00% 2 airports Cincinnati 7,976 5,416,171 1,443,656 26.70% Memphis 7,408 4,855,090 1,340,848 27.60% Oklahoma City 6,763 1,643,426 1,224,103 74.50% Louisville 6,697 1,593,425 1,212,157 76.10% Richmond 6,617 1,608,958 1,197,677 74.40% Birmingham 5,845 1,444,029 1,057,945 73.30% First 6 months of 2009. http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-50%20Role_files/consumerairfarereport.htm
September 2, 201014 yr Comair to shrink fleet, staffing Business Courier of Cincinnati Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 9:28am EDT | Modified: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 5:00am With no buyer in sight, Comair Inc. said it will reduce the size of its fleet down to a 44-aircraft operation and cut staff in an effort to lower its cost structure. In a memo sent to employees Wednesday morning, the Northern Kentucky-based airline said it will entirely eliminate its aging 50-seat aircraft between now and 2012. The airline will keep flying its 65-seat CRJ-700s and 76-seat CRJ-900s, bringing its total fleet from nearly 100 planes to just 44 aircraft. Those aircraft will all have two-class cabins, which is something customers prefer, a Comair spokeswoman said. http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2010/08/30/daily24.html
July 27, 201212 yr News Release Comair to Cease Operations No significant changes to schedules or locations served for Delta customers Jul 27, 2012 ATLANTA, July 27, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) today announced its subsidiary, Comair, Inc. will cease operations after Sept. 29, 2012. (Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO ) In a memo issued today to the Officers and Directors of Delta Air Lines, Don Bornhorst, Senior Vice President of Delta Connection, said: "While regional flying has and will remain a key component of Delta's network, customer expectations and the unit costs of regional flying have evolved. In response, Delta recently announced its plans to reduce the total number of regional jets in its network while adding more mainline flying. This includes reducing the number of 50-seat regional jets from nearly 350 aircraft to 125 or fewer in the upcoming years. As a result of this reduction and changes to its customer-focused business strategy, Delta has made the difficult decision to cease Comair's operations." Ryan Gumm, President of Comair, communicated Delta's decision this morning to Comair employees in a memo, the full text of which is included below. The discontinuation of Comair's operations will not result in any significant changes to Delta's network, which has enough flexibility to accommodate these changes. Currently, Comair accounts for approximately one percent of Delta's network capacity. There will be no disruption to customers and no significant adjustments to Delta's flight schedule or locations served. All customers who travel on the Delta network, whether on Delta Connection flights or mainline aircraft, can continue to make travel plans with Delta as they have in the past. Cincinnati will continue to be an important market in Delta's worldwide network. Over the past several years, working with community leaders, Delta has right-sized capacity at Cincinnati to better match service to local passenger demand. Cincinnati is now a profitable market for Delta and the city continues to enjoy over 120 peak daily flights, with non-stop service to 49 destinations. No reductions in the number of Delta flights are planned at Cincinnati as a result of this decision. To All Comair Employees From Ryan Gumm, President Subject Comair to Cease Operations Date July 27, 2012 All, Today, I am writing to let you know that Delta has made the difficult decision to cease Comair's operations after September 29, 2012. Delta recently announced its intent to reduce the overall number of 50-seat regional jets in its network from nearly 350 to 125 or fewer in light of the significant changes in the economic and competitive conditions in the airline industry. We believed this announcement would have a negative impact on Comair because we operate some of the oldest 50-seat aircraft in the Delta Connection fleet, which also have the highest unit cost per flight hour. And, in fact, Delta has decided to remove the remaining 16 Comair 50-seaters from the Delta network, leaving Comair with only 28 aircraft in scheduled service. This further reduction of Comair's active fleet will only create higher unit costs, which equates to a business model that is no longer sustainable in this competitive regional environment. I understand that today's news is very difficult and raises many questions for you and your family. Human Resources is prepared to directly assist you during this time. They will post a memo and other documents on the Human Resources Epic page to keep you informed of the assistance available and to help answer many of your questions. We will also have staff available over the weekend to answer questions if needed. If after reviewing the information on Epic you have any additional questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out to your departmental leadership as well. The discontinuation of Comair's operations is in no way a failure or a reflection of your work – it is an unfortunate necessity due to the economic limitations of our aging aircraft, cost structure, the long-term outlook for 50-seat aircraft, and our challenging industry and economy. The quality of our operations has continued to be outstanding during our lengthy restructuring efforts, and I am honored to have had the opportunity to lead such a committed team. I am asking that each of you recognize the importance of remaining focused on safety and the job at hand as we continue operations throughout the wind-down period. Your continued commitment and your dedication to a safe and reliable operation is a testament to the professional team we have built here at Comair.
December 4, 201212 yr Delta will cease nonstop service to Washington/Dulles and Oklahoma City from CVG in March 2013.
December 10, 201212 yr Delta will cease nonstop service to Washington/Dulles and Oklahoma City from CVG in March 2013. Omaha as opposed to Oklahoma City --- we lost OKC a couple years back. I've been kind of surprised OMA hung on this long. A colleague of mine flies CVG-OMA on DL about once a month --- the prices were always about 40% cheaper for him to route CVG-MEM/DTW/MSP-OMA versus direct anyway.
December 11, 201212 yr Looks like Memphis is taking some huge hits from Delta. Going to be an even smaller "hub" than CVG is. http://news.cincinnati.com/usatoday/article/1736789?odyssey=obinsite
December 12, 201212 yr United mainline service is leaving CVG in February next year....Not sure if United Express service will be staying on at this pont...
December 12, 201212 yr This has to be the most depressing Ohio-related thread on this site. At this rate, CVG will be the smallest, most feeble, least accommodating "international" airport in the Western Hemisphere by 2014.
December 12, 201212 yr Yep pains me to see.....Worked fo rboth United and Delta at CVG...Place is a ghosttown of its former self.
December 12, 201212 yr United mainline service is leaving CVG in February next year....Not sure if United Express service will be staying on at this pont... Sorry for being ignorant, but what are the "mainline" and "express" services? And together do they make up all of United's flights in & out of CVG?
December 12, 201212 yr Mainline is serviced by the larger aircraft out of in case Cincy 737..... Express service is the smaller 50 seat jets....
December 12, 201212 yr ^ Okay, thanks. I usually ride on the smaller jets, so hopefully they aren't going away.
December 13, 201212 yr United's 1 mainline flight here is a A319/320 that comes from Chicago on the last flight in and leaves on the first flight out. My understanding is that this is done primarily because it's cheaper to RON (remain over night) the plane at CVG than at ORD. Also, lots of business travelers on that first flight out in the AM to connect at United megahub at ORD. The Airbus also has first class which appeals to United's frequent flyers. I would not be surprised if this is a seasonal adjustment...that Airbus may be moving onto a route than is ramped up seasonally like CLE-RSW or other snowbird destinations. I don't think there is even a chance that United would leave CVG at all. Way too much lucrative business travel here.
December 13, 201212 yr All I know is UAL CVG employees have been told service out of CVG will stop in February....There are United mainline employees at CVG.
December 13, 201212 yr To beat a dead horse: What a failure passenger air has become at CVG. I'm sure it has been said and analyzed what with the departure of Chiquita but it is/will be a huge liability for attracting and retaining our large corporations.
December 13, 201212 yr Well, if misery loves company, take comfort in knowing that you're not alone with CVG...... http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Aviation%20Industry%20Performance%5E9-24-12.pdf Of note..... Yet there has also been a significant reduction in service at some hub airports and in short-haul flights (i.e., less than 500 miles), which in turn is limiting the choices of many air travelers. Further details of these changes in business conditions, airline actions, and their impacts are described below. Ultimately, the trends presented in this report suggest that the changes in the number of airlines controlling the industry, fare increases, and capacity reductions that began in 2008 are not a brief phase, but rather are signs of a greater shift in the industry that will remain for years to come. The recent resurgence in prices has pushed fuel expenses to 35 percent of airline operating costs in 2011, near the all-time high of 40 percent experienced in 2008 (see figure 2). In contrast, fuel was only 10 percent of operating costs in 2001. Fuel is now the largest single component of airline costs, exceeding payroll and fringe benefits costs—with U.S. airlines spending $31 billion for fuel in 2011 or triple the expense of 2000. READ MORE AT THE ABOVE LINK "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 13, 201212 yr ^ We kind of are alone. From that report: The most significant decreases were experienced at Cincinnati (-63.1 percent), Pittsburgh (-40.1 percent), and Memphis (-35.5 percent). We had a 57% greater percent decline than Pittsburgh, who came in second place for lost flights (6/07-6/12).
December 13, 201212 yr Do you know why United may be leaving CVG? This is contrary to the thought that the hole Delta left could be filled by other airlines.
December 13, 201212 yr If I had to hazard a guess I think mainline will pull out and United Express will service CVG....Cutting cosst as Express is cheaper for UAL bottom line to run out of a smaller station.Just a guess but this scenario has been considered for quite some time and is not a real suprise to UAL CVG employees
December 13, 201212 yr ^ We kind of are alone. From that report: The most significant decreases were experienced at Cincinnati (-63.1 percent), Pittsburgh (-40.1 percent), and Memphis (-35.5 percent). You're alone at the top (bottom?) but not alone in when it comes to sharp decline of air traffic. And while CVG finished a $250 million expansion the same month Delta announced its first round of cutbacks, CVG wasn't the loser of the biggest bet made on future expansion. That was St. Louis which demolished 2,000 homes and businesses for a $1 billion expansion. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 13, 201212 yr ^ We kind of are alone. From that report: The most significant decreases were experienced at Cincinnati (-63.1 percent), Pittsburgh (-40.1 percent), and Memphis (-35.5 percent). We had a 57% greater percent decline than Pittsburgh, who came in second place for lost flights (6/07-6/12). That report is from September. I wonder how much the numbers have changed since then with the announced cuts at Memphis? No matter what the numbers say both cities have lost a lot simply based on geography.
December 15, 201212 yr I always hear of people saying CVG has some of the highest landing fees in the country, but honestly I don't think that is the case. The landing fees this year were $3.981 per thousand pounds and will be $3.975 next year. Anyone know where this puts us compared to other airports?
February 6, 201312 yr http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/money/business_news/delta-air-lines-cutting-nonstop-flights-to-washington-san-francisco Lack of demand? Of course lower your ticket prices to the same as other markets.
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