The title of this thread really bothers me...

The title of this thread really bothers me...

 

Despite me having the first post in this thread, I seriously don't remember typing that in as the title. :)

 

I think it's a bit sad that the Westgate property is smaller than Crocker Park, and yet is slated to have less building density than Crocker. Go figure.

 

It would have been better if they incorporated some residential into this development, or maybe split the property in two.  Granted, the area surrounding it isn't exactly urban, but it's not out in the sticks like Crocker Park or Legacy.

 

Oh well, I guess Westgate is doomed to continue its history of being an auto-centric development.  It started out as a drive-in theater, then it became a shopping mall, now it's going to be a lifestyle center abortion.  Fairview Park should instead be focusing its attention on Lorain Road, which I think has a lot of potential that sits unutilized.

the Cleveland Plain Dealer finally had a story listing some of the retailers coming. 

 

Jacobs Group's PR consultant Bill Fullington didn't release the initial list of retailers until Monday (3-12).

 

I think it's a bit sad that the Westgate property is smaller than Crocker Park, and yet is slated to have less building density than Crocker. Go figure.

 

It would have been better if they incorporated some residential into this development, or maybe split the property in two.  Granted, the area surrounding it isn't exactly urban, but it's not out in the sticks like Crocker Park or Legacy.

 

You're forgetting something... this is the Jacobs Group. They still design projects the old-fashioned way -- auto-centric and with little or no mixed use.

 

Fairview Park should instead be focusing its attention on Lorain Road, which I think has a lot of potential that sits unutilized.

 

They are. The city is using a NOACA TLCI grant to develop a plan for creating a more mixed-use, pedestrian-oriented plan for the west end of Lorain Road (from West 223rd to the North Olmsted line). What they do there will guide the rest of the Lorain corridor.

Fairview Park should instead be focusing its attention on Lorain Road, which I think has a lot of potential that sits unutilized.

 

They are. The city is using a NOACA TLCI grant to develop a plan for creating a more mixed-use, pedestrian-oriented plan for the west end of Lorain Road (from West 223rd to the North Olmsted line). What they do there will guide the rest of the Lorain corridor.

 

I've forgotten about that.  Lorain Road actually does have a fairly good pedestrian-friendly retail district going on between W.210th and 220th (I live a little west of 220th...giving away my location here).  I wish certain amenities like the library were closer to the street though.  Such an awesome-looking building should not have been set back by a 300-foot parking lot!

 

EDIT: Off topic to this thread (this whole post is off topic :wink:), but here's a photo of the library. Tiny, but it was the only pic I could find...

I like the library, too. And I can think of at least two other people that have remarked to me how much they like it when we happened to be passing by.. Agreed, it's a shame about the lot.. Not only does it set it back way too far, there's just something about it that's a just pain in the ass to navigate.

When I first started covering FP back in 1994, there was a push by some citizens (one of whom was Norm Bringman who later became city council president) to get the library to be built on the site of one of the former Lorain Road motels. The goal was to get it built near the street and eliminate a motel's blighting influence on the community. Alas, the county library system demolished the viable Naked Furniture store (which relocated to Middleburg Hts) and put the library far back from the street. The rationale was to put the library closer to the high school/middle school campus just south of Lorain near West 213th. That's the same rationale being used for the new community recreation center, which was built on the site of a ragtag trailer park!

 

Probably more than you wanted to know, but that's the history.

From the 4/20/07 PD:

 

 

New Target to open near old one

Friday, April 20, 2007

Janet H. Cho

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Target Corp. is closing its Rocky River store at 20001 Center Ridge Road on July 24 and opening a larger store less than a mile away at 20900 Westgate, at the site of the former mall, in Fairview Park the next morning.

 

The 127,000-square-foot Fairview Park store is 20 percent larger than the 106,000-square-foot Rocky River store, and incorporates Target's new prototype, including expanded food offerings, a pharmacy, photo processing and a Starbucks, said spokesman Joshua Thomas, via telephone from the company's Minneapolis headquarters...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business-1/1177058135243560.xml&coll=2

 

From the 6/7/07 Sun Herald:

 

 

It's all about jobs

Westgate redevelopment earns award for retention

Thursday, June 07, 2007

By Ken Prendergast

 

FAIRVIEW PARK Mayor Eileen Patton will accept an award today that praises the city's efforts to facilitate the redevelopment of Westgate Mall into an open-air retail complex.

 

The new Westgate, its first store to open late next month, was redeveloped by the Richard E. Jacobs Group.

 

TeamNEO and Inside Business magazine jointly will present the NEO Award for job creation/retention to Patton at 5:30 p.m. at a dinner at the DoubleTree Hotel in Independence. The event is sponsored by Medical Mutual, TeamNEO and Inside Business...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/sun/sunherald/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1181234740157380.xml&coll=3

 

At that location (dense for a suburb and on many bus routes) and with so much land the whole development could have been so much more and so much better.  No reason for awards.

I would have loved to see a truly mixed-used place. Yes, even a Crocker Park-style development.

 

But read the article again. The award wasn't about land use design. It was about survival -- getting Jacobs to do something with the site to save the jobs and the taxbase for a fully built-out inner-ring suburb. Westgate was well on its way to becoming Euclid Square Mall-West when the city began a dialogue with Jacobs. It then provided incentives to get Jacobs to invest in something at that location. A city can't force a land-use concept on a developer who isn't interested in it and already owns the land. How many barriers are you trying to put in the way of the property owner creating economic development? The city's goal was to encourage the property owner to reinvest, not piss them off. That's why Fairview Park officials won the award.

I'm just reposting this so people can read it - and remember it. I'm the first to hope that developers embrace sensible planning, but...

 

A city can't force a land-use concept on a developer who isn't interested in it and already owns the land. How many barriers are you trying to put in the way of the property owner creating economic development?

Sorry KJP but you are preaching to the choir.  I am a pure capitalist and very pro developer.  Jacob has the right to build what ever poorly conceived center he would like as long as it follows zoning and architectural guidelines.  That said I am very disappointed in what is going up at that location.  It is a prime site and would have been a great location for a mixed used development (much better than Crocker Park as to a certain extent it is already a walkable neighborhood (with a lack of walkers)).  What is going up is something you would find in Streetboro.  The same old national chains and tons of surface parking and catering to the automobile.  I know from personal experience that they are not really interested  in courting local merchants  (which makes even your routine strip center more interesting). 

 

By the way, lets not forget the above when we start slamming Wolstein for what is going up on his property in the Flats.

I posted this in the restaurant relocation thread but also thought it fits nicely here

 

The PD reported today that Maxi's Deli is leaving its great location on Detroit after 25 years and moving to Westgate.  Now it will have LOTS of parking. 

 

While not a big fan of the redeveloped Westgate (see above), I am happy to see they are going to have at least one local business (any one aware of any more) among a sea of national chains you can pretty much find everywhere (although not happy that an institution like Max's is moving there from a great walkable neighborhood).

It'll be in Sun News tomorrow, too  :wink:

I'm not exactly certain that Max's location was "great".  Seems like there are a lot more customers within walking distance to Westgate.  Unless you want to traverse the valley, or go over the highway, there aren't a ton of homes/people near its current location?  Perhaps that's why they parking lot was always full!  I'm excited to see a local business join westgate as well.

There's plenty of residential in and around the former location - you have the Beachcliff neighborhood, new townhomes along Lake and Linda, the Westlake condos, and yes, the Detroit/Sloane area of Lakewood is in easy walking distance (along with other shops, Beachcliff Market Place, etc.). More importantly, the former location was near River's old downtown area which is far more charming, pedestrian-friendly, and scenic than Severance Town Center West... ahem, I mean Westgate. Let's compare - Old Detroit Road or Center Ridge, which is a nominal notch up from Lorain Road in North Olmsted. And what's the big draw for the new location? More parking! :roll:

^ I agree with MayDay, but, uhh, that's probably no surprise. Of course, most of the time you can close your eyes and open them in any given NEO suburb and  feel like you're in the same place.

Are you thinking of Max and Erma's?

^ I agree with MayDay, but, uhh, that's probably no surprise. Of course, most of the time you can close your eyes and open them in any given NEO suburb and  feel like you're in the same place.

 

Which is, unfortunately, why I think a lot of people like the suburbs.  I will never understand it.

There had to be more people within walking distance to downtown Rocky River.  Anyone want to check density statistics on the Census website?  Not to mention that that part of Rocky River/Lakewood is a far more walkable area than Westgate.  Walking through the seas of parking alone is quite the hike!

I would have loved to see a truly mixed-used place. Yes, even a Crocker Park-style development.

 

But read the article again. The award wasn't about land use design. It was about survival -- getting Jacobs to do something with the site to save the jobs and the taxbase for a fully built-out inner-ring suburb. Westgate was well on its way to becoming Euclid Square Mall-West when the city began a dialogue with Jacobs. It then provided incentives to get Jacobs to invest in something at that location. A city can't force a land-use concept on a developer who isn't interested in it and already owns the land. How many barriers are you trying to put in the way of the property owner creating economic development? The city's goal was to encourage the property owner to reinvest, not piss them off. That's why Fairview Park officials won the award.

 

Well people when is Urbanohio going to start to give out rewards for good land management. Perhaps we can get a committiee together and next spring present a few awards.

 

Are you thinking of Max and Erma's?

 

No, I'm talking about Westgate.

Well people when is Urbanohio going to start to give out rewards for good land management. Perhaps we can get a committiee together and next spring present a few awards.

 

That is actually a superb idea!!

!!

.

Well people when is Urbanohio going to start to give out rewards for good land management. Perhaps we can get a committiee together and next spring present a few awards.

 

That is actually a superb idea!!

 

We can call the awards the Ubi's . We need a meeting,perhaps at harbor inn

I went by the project this morning.  I thought that the site plan was a little erratic.  Sort of reminds me of Brunswick Towne Center, though I don't know which one I like better.

 

The architecture didn't look bad, but it wasn't distinctive and was sort of the same sort of bland style that you see everywhere. 

 

I miss the old Westgate Mall. 

By the way, did anyone see the new Target on Brookpark and Great Northern Blvd in North Olmstead?  There are all kinds of square brick columns that are supposed to form a trellis around the building.  I thought it looked pretty nasty.

 

I didn't see a separate thread for it.

I took a walk around the Westgate site, during the Summerfest carnival at nearby Bohlken Park a few weeks ago. Besides poor land use, it looks to me like they're using some of the cheapest materials available for the buildings.  Even from 100 feet away the steel and vinyl looked flimsy.

 

No thanks, Westgate. You're an island of car-oriented exurban sprawl in the middle of two decently-walkable inner-ring burbs.

Drove by this the other day and had to return with camera in hand:

 

 

The "points" were added within the last week or so:

 

 

The responsible parties:

 

 

Begs the question, should there be such a thing as "architectural malpractice"...

I think they are supposed to be bi-cuspids.

No, they're demon horns!

Drove through this "development" for the first time yesterday.  While never a big fan of the project from day one, it really turned out worst that I thought it would.  Ignoring the horrible design and cheap looking materials, the site plan is such that most people will want to get in their cars and drive from one section to another rather than walk.  Also noticed that they appear to be having trouble leasing space.  It seems that at this late date in the project more that 50% of the smaller store fronts had  "for lease" signs on them.  It could be that this area is over built retail wise.

^"It could be that this area is over built retail wise."

 

gee, ya think?  you mean 50 new stores doesn't sound inviting to you?  i'm always looking for more disposable crap to fill my house with.  when is jacobs gonna see the light?!?

 

we recently had an event at the universalist unitarian church on hilliard, about 5 blocks from westgate.  i took the #326 out there from detroit shoreway.  it was a quick 30 min ride from W. 65th to the west gate transit center.  i can't say i've spent much time out that way beforehand, but i was surprised by the amount of dense housing in this area, so to end up with this car-centric development is beyond a wee-bit dissapointing.  when are clevo developers gonna figure this stuff out!?

 

i'm with Edisou in creating some sort of urban awards for land use.  anybody can stage a press conf in the internet era, so i says let's do it!  i'll meet you at the harbor inn amigo.

Folks at the Jacobs Group won't ever get it, at least as long as the old man is still around and involved.

 

I'm with you on doling out urban awards, for best and worst in various categories, based on clearly communicated criteria.

 

It could be done solely as an UrbanOhio award, or done in conjunction with other like-minded organizations -- All Aboard Ohio, Earth Day Coalition, others?

With Max's Deli pulling out of the project (silly of them to attempt the move in the first place since they had such a great location before...of course who knows  what other business reasons may have existed for the proposed move) this makes this mediocre shopping strip even more bland as Max's was going to be one of the few places that gave the place a local flavor.

I was in the neighborhood about a week ago, so I took a quick drive through this development to see it for myself.  It's really pathetic compared to what the developer claimed it would be.  It's just a glorified strip mall with slightly better than average strip mall materials. ;)

 

Plus, the layout (as noted above) is not conducive to parking and walking around, you really almost have to drive from one area to another.  (Otherwise, I'd be afraid of being mowed down.)  And the driving lanes seem to intersect strangely in many areas.  I forsee a lot of fender-benders here!

 

The positive is, instead of letting another retail center dye (Randall Park, Eucld Square) they reinvested in the area.

The positive is, instead of letting another retail center dye (Randall Park, Eucld Square) they reinvested in the area.

 

dye or die?  :wink: 

I wonder where Max's Deli will go?  Crocker Park? Seems to hit their target demo squarely.

maybe so, but I only think chains go in CP. not sure why, perhaps cost of doing business or fear that non chains may color outside the lines.

Back in early 2005 when the original site plans were first published in local papers, I remember thinking how bad the design looked, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt, that it might have just been an early draft.  Then construction began and, lo and behold, the place was being built just as it appeared in the newspapers. As for the flow of the place, it's bad enough trying to navigate the parking lots on your feet, but driving through it is just as mind-bendingly frustrating.

 

I've been hearing that Westgate is having a hard time attracting tenants.  The pullout of Max's really makes the situation all the more obvious.  Personally, I think a place like Max's belongs in an on-the-street retail space in an urban-suburban area. Leave the stripmalls for the chain stores/restaurants.

Do you think Max's would work in the Wilsher building on Clifton? (the cursed restaurant space that most recently housed Velocity)

maybe so, but I only think chains go in CP. not sure why, perhaps cost of doing business or fear that non chains may color outside the lines.

 

A place called Agave is opening at CP where Hoggy's was...I don't think its a chain.

 

^It may not be, but it could be corporate owned. If not it would be an exception for sure. It is hard for the indy's to go in more upscale places.

A place called Agave is opening at CP where Hoggy's was

 

I thought that was a cold stone going there?

Looks like Cold Stone and Agave are splitting the space formerly occupied by Hoggy's

Agave is owned by Luchitas

Cool - finally a light... dim, but a light none-the-less.

maybe so, but I only think chains go in CP. not sure why, perhaps cost of doing business or fear that non chains may color outside the lines.

 

Marcell, RR Freestyle, Cara's, Frames Unlimited, Lee Hayden Art Gallery and Secret Closet are independent shops. Crocker Park has a number of regional chains that I wouldn't consider corporate; Indigo Nation, Liquid Planet, Dave's Cosmic Subs, Hyde Park, Aladin's and Blake's.

While I'm not thrilled about the topic (WESTGATE), can we please get back on it?!?

Maybe Max's decided to move in across the street to Beachcliff? I heard White House Black Market was already closing there.