The Cavs couldn't/wouldn't surround LeBron with enough talent to win a championship, so he went to a team that did. How he left is just conversation for the rest of us.

^Are you being facetious? The Cavs won the most games in the NBA for two years in a row. The difference between the '12 Miami Heat and the 09-'10 Cavs is Lebron's play in the playoffs.  He's playing out of his mind right now. The notion that the Cavs weren't talented enough is revisionist history. They didn't have another transcendent talent like Dwyane Wade, but they were extremely deep. It's not a coincidence that the Cavs had their best years when Varejao stayed healthy and they had 5 (5!!!!) perimeter shooters who went for 40% from 3. They also ranked in the top 7 in offense and defense those years, topping out at the 4th highest rated offense and 3rd highest rated defense in '09. The "not enough talent" argument is so lazy.  Sure, superstars win championships, but you know what else does? Winning f*ing games, and the cavs won 127 in two years.

The Cavs couldn't/wouldn't surround LeBron with enough talent to win a championship, so he went to a team that did. How he left is just conversation for the rest of us.

 

Come on, those teams won 60 games in back-to-back seasons.  Average teams, heck even teams that are only a little better than average, just don't do that.  Those were championship-caliber basketball teams that underachieved in the playoffs for myriad reasons.

 

But if you want to argue that those teams didn't have enough to win a title, then I believe that "couldn't" is the word you're looking for...and a big part of that was because James let his ego get in the way of committing to the franchise and assisting in recruiting stars to play with him.  That's not to say that the management under Paxson and later Ferry didn't make any mistakes, but James didn't make their job any easier, especially for someone who supposedly wanted to win a championship so badly. 

 

That being said, as much as I'm optimistic about the Cavaliers getting better in the coming years, I just don't see any scenario (short of James returning, which I think would be ridiculous on so many levels) where they're anything more than a Jazz or Blazers type of a franchise.  Consistently in the playoffs just about every year without any real superstars and consequently little chance of winning a championship--and what fun is it if you know that your team realistically likely won't ever win it all?  The odds are so highly stacked against smaller/less glamorous markets in the NBA that I don't see the point.  I don't blame others for enjoying the game and getting behind the franchise, I just don't know if I can do it anymore.

Youre assuming that irving wont be a superstar.  What happens if he is the best point guard in the league in three years.  Could they be as good as this years bulls?  with two years of high draft picks, the cavs could be in position to have a strong, young supporting cast and may be a free agent away from serious contention.  This conversation may belong on the cavs thread but I think the cavs look as good going forward as you could possibly hope they could, given the circumstances. 

The Cavs couldn't/wouldn't surround LeBron with enough talent to win a championship, so he went to a team that did. How he left is just conversation for the rest of us.

 

Come on, those teams won 60 games in back-to-back seasons.  Average teams, heck even teams that are only a little better than average, just don't do that.  Those were championship-caliber basketball teams that underachieved in the playoffs for myriad reasons.

 

But if you want to argue that those teams didn't have enough to win a title, then I believe that "couldn't" is the word you're looking for...and a big part of that was because James let his ego get in the way of committing to the franchise and assisting in recruiting stars to play with him.  That's not to say that the management under Paxson and later Ferry didn't make any mistakes, but James didn't make their job any easier, especially for someone who supposedly wanted to win a championship so badly. 

 

That being said, as much as I'm optimistic about the Cavaliers getting better in the coming years, I just don't see any scenario (short of James returning, which I think would be ridiculous on so many levels) where they're anything more than a Jazz or Blazers type of a franchise.  Consistently in the playoffs just about every year without any real superstars and consequently little chance of winning a championship--and what fun is it if you know that your team realistically likely won't ever win it all?  The odds are so highly stacked against smaller/less glamorous markets in the NBA that I don't see the point.  I don't blame others for enjoying the game and getting behind the franchise, I just don't know if I can do it anymore.

 

The cavs were primed to win a title...all that they needed was Lebron to give the effort he is now.  Instead, he quit so he had a good exit strategy.  Faked an elbow injury, shot a ree throw left handed in the final minutes of a playoff game.  If you ask me, he is actually shouldering the load MORE in Miami than he did here.

 

The thing is, i root against the guy, but i could care less if he finishes this thing.  The party goes on here in CLE.  The media acts blind about this guys character, frankly it is puke.  If he came back to the cavs, i would root for the cavs...not for him.

Youre assuming that irving wont be a superstar.  What happens if he is the best point guard in the league in three years.  Could they be as good as this years bulls?  with two years of high draft picks, the cavs could be in position to have a strong, young supporting cast and may be a free agent away from serious contention.  This conversation may belong on the cavs thread but I think the cavs look as good going forward as you could possibly hope they could, given the circumstances.

 

Based on PER, Irving had a significantly better rookie season than Rose did (though Kyrie did play quite a few less games).  Ultimately, however, I think Irving's impact and style of play will be more in the realm of a guy like a Deron Williams or maybe even a Chris Paul...meaning that for the Cavs to be competing for championships he's going to need to be paired with the type of star wing player that I don't think will just be sitting around for the taking.  At the very least I definitely don't think that that player is in this year's draft.

 

As a general rule, while it's nice to have a great point guard (and Kyrie is well on his way to fitting the bill), in today's game I think you almost always still need a big-time scorer at the SG or SF position to win a title.  That's why I have a hard time getting overly excited about the future.

Such crap to wake up to.... Images of Lebron holding a trophy. This can't be a good day.

We knew the guy would get a trophy.  Whatev.  Good for him.  This is the problem with NE Ohio, too many people pin hopes and dreams to sports teams and when stuff like this happens we get made fun of.  I wish ppl in Ohio focused as much of their time on things like sustainability, urban development, creativity and this stuff wouldnt even matter. 

 

Sure, i root against the guy...but my day isnt going to be any better or worse because of him.  PS:  I think he ends up coming back here before his career is over.  He will want to try to smooth things out with his home at some point.

I'm not happy he won it, but at least now the anticipation of when he was going to get his first is behind us. Now he can be just another player on a team that I root against when they play the Cavs.

 

There's been a lot of chatter about him coming back to Cleveland. Personally, I think that this is just noise generated by the talking heads to drum up talking points. He can't ever really come back here, not after how he did us. I would have less respect for Cavs fans if we accepted him back. Plus, I can't believe that ever happens with Gilbert owning the team.

To me, this feels a little bit like I did after the Ravens won the Super Bowl. That one REALLY hurt me. This one hurts a little, but I felt a little better this morning when I woke up and saw the sun rising, heard the birds chirping and noticed people going about their business here in Cleveland as though nothing had changed. Because, in the real world outside of sports, nothing has.

^spot on KJP.  Ill stick to the point that i will root against the guy, but since he has won...who really cares?  If him winning affects someones day, then  that person should really take a look in the mirror.  Sports are way too important in your life if thats the case. These guys are putting a ball into a basket for petes sake. The thing im most upset about is that the national media has inadvertantly dragged Cleveland into this, like we are soooo mad and sooooo angry.  Frankly, i feel that they are just trying to write about something.  Its stupid and it makes us look bad.  I want us to come off and a well rounded city that loves where we live regardless of our sports team, instead they want us to be portrayed as living to watch this guy fail.  I am pretty pissed about that.

^Yeah, at the end of they day that's what I really dreaded about a Heat win: the inevitable interviews with "bitter Cleveland fans."  And WCPN was all to happy to offer up its contribution for national NPR play: http://www.npr.org/2012/06/22/155554828/lebron-james-accomplishes-nba-goal-post-cavaliers

I was exaggerating about it ruining my day. I am not even a Cleveland sports fan. More a Lebron hater than a Cavs fan, or even an NBA fan.

 

It wouldn't ruin my day either if Notre Dame won the BCS football championship, and I hate Brian Kelly at least as much as I hate Lebron.

^ i know, i wasnt referring to you, i was referring to the really angry fans.  I cant imagine anyone on this forum would not have other passions and revolve their life around what lebron does. I agree, Lebron is easy to dislike and i root against him...but some folks take it to a whole new level.

We knew the guy would get a trophy.  Whatev.  Good for him.  This is the problem with NE Ohio, too many people pin hopes and dreams to sports teams and when stuff like this happens we get made fun of.  I wish ppl in Ohio focused as much of their time on things like sustainability, urban development, creativity and this stuff wouldnt even matter. 

 

Sure, i root against the guy...but my day isnt going to be any better or worse because of him.  PS:  I think he ends up coming back here before his career is over.  He will want to try to smooth things out with his home at some point.

 

So is this really only a Cleveland problem?  And are there not a lot of other cities that take their sports seriously that are doing well in other civic areas?  I understand what you're saying, but I hate it when people make the mistake of framing this infatuation with professional sports as something that's unique to Cleveland.

^ I dont know.  I feel as if other cities see sports as a bonus.  They are proud sports fans, but if it doesnt work out...whatever...life goes on.  Take Boston, for example, they are proud fans up there...but even if they lose they know they have a great city and life goes on.  Now, i know there is a population of people here in Cleveland feel that way (same as Boston)...but i feel as if the sports fans as a whole rely way too much on sports for their happiness and it gives our city a bad name.  Im so sick of hearing about curses and fumbles and drives.  I wish the sports fans here in Cleveland were as passionate about being involved in rebuilding this city as they are the sports teams...because the hard work put into the cities wont let you down. 

 

Im sure its not only a Cleveland problem, but i feel that every time this happens its a point at Cleveland and laugh moment for the rest of the country because they know how it devastates the people.

I wonder how many semi-interested sports fans remember what team LeBron played for before he came to Miami? My point is, I think we in Cleveland believe the rest of the nation pays more attention to us than the rest of the nation really does. And if the rest of the nation really does pay attention, it probably occupies their thoughts for a short period of time before they move on with the rest of their lives.

^Honestly, the "let's hear from some bitter Cleveland fans" NPR bit I linked to above was the first thing I heard on the radio this morning several hundred miles from Cleveland. In this particular case I think the embarrassing "Cleveland is obsessed with hating Lebron" narrative still has some national legs. But I think it can now officially be put to bed, thank god.

^^I disagree.  At this point, it seems like the "rest of the nation" is playing up our emotions on the topic more than us.  ESPN, the day after Miama won a title, was taping the Really Big Show to play highlights from callers on Sportscenter!  Really?  Try to find a national story on Lebron that doesn't mention his exodus from Cleveland and the general sentiment about that.

 

I think outside the media's (local and national) desire to play it up and a very loud minority, most Clevelanders and Cavs fans are well beyond it.  Last year was fun.  But, honestly, at this point I'm tired of it taking up so much of the sports talk here and nationally.

 

I reached a turning point after the Finals last year.  I went Mavaliers crazy, but then actually felt some sympathy towards him afterwards.  I'm glad he won.  Not a lot of people will say this, but he deserved it.  He improved himself as a player and a person.  He was a better teammate and a better representative of the game throughout the whole playoffs.  He carried Miami to this title and started playing more like the Lebron we saw the first 5-6 years here.  Unbelievable talent and unquestionably now the best player in the game.

The media's coverage doesn't necessarily equate to the public's values. It might in this case. It might not. My own feeling is that I'd be surprised if it did.

^ I dont know.  I feel as if other cities see sports as a bonus.  They are proud sports fans, but if it doesnt work out...whatever...life goes on.  Take Boston, for example, they are proud fans up there...but even if they lose they know they have a great city and life goes on.  Now, i know there is a population of people here in Cleveland feel that way (same as Boston)...but i feel as if the sports fans as a whole rely way too much on sports for their happiness and it gives our city a bad name.  Im so sick of hearing about curses and fumbles and drives.  I wish the sports fans here in Cleveland were as passionate about being involved in rebuilding this city as they are the sports teams...because the hard work put into the cities wont let you down. 

 

Im sure its not only a Cleveland problem, but i feel that every time this happens its a point at Cleveland and laugh moment for the rest of the country because they know how it devastates the people.

 

There are two significant issues pertaining to the Cleveland fanbases:

 

1. Having a sense of pride about mediocrity.  I don't see Cleveland fans demanding much of their teams outside of competitiveness.

 

2. Relishing the role of National Sports Victim.  Philadelphia does its fair share of whining, but Cleland probably takes the cake in this category.  Cincinnati had their  former franchise QB walk out on them with four years left on his contract and that city still doesn't weep like Cleveland did over Lebron.

 

St. Louis has a perennial winner downtown and that city still could use a professional cleaning crew.  Cleveland should focus on expanding the Rapid and forming a cohesive flow of self-sustaining neighborhoods within 3 miles of downtown.

The LeBron situation was unique as he was homegrown talent, a local-boy-done-good, and he made such a big production of leaving.  Boston doesn't complain about that because people don't do that to Boston.  Also, we do have that long term title drought, something no other major-leage city is dealing with.  There was even a popular movie about it, and that was over 20 years ago.  The story is there because it's there... people aren't making up things to complain about, nor are they blowing everyday issues out of proportion.  They're just sick of getting screwed.

^^

 

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2.

 

If we have to have the conversation, can we at least limit it to people who actually have some sense of what 'Cleveland sports fan' relishes in and has a sense of pride about.  I realize the door is wide open for cheap shots from people who 'relish' and 'take pride' in those sort of antics, but please don't generalize on subject you know nothing about.  Let's not turn this into another "AFC North thread" debacle................ whose stupid idea was that anyway

^^If you took the set of all cities, i guarantee that the quality of public transportation would closely correlate with the level and intensity of sports fandom.

^ I dont know.  I feel as if other cities see sports as a bonus.  They are proud sports fans, but if it doesnt work out...whatever...life goes on.  Take Boston, for example, they are proud fans up there...but even if they lose they know they have a great city and life goes on.  Now, i know there is a population of people here in Cleveland feel that way (same as Boston)...but i feel as if the sports fans as a whole rely way too much on sports for their happiness and it gives our city a bad name.  Im so sick of hearing about curses and fumbles and drives.  I wish the sports fans here in Cleveland were as passionate about being involved in rebuilding this city as they are the sports teams...because the hard work put into the cities wont let you down. 

 

Im sure its not only a Cleveland problem, but i feel that every time this happens its a point at Cleveland and laugh moment for the rest of the country because they know how it devastates the people.

 

I think part of the issue is that we haven't had a title here in any major sport in almost half a century.  There's little doubt in my mind that the passion of sports fans in Boston, Philly, Chicago, etc., etc. is right on par with the passion we have here.  However I think that the main difference of course is that they have watched their teams win championships in recent years while we have not.  It's a little bit easier to get over the defeats and see it "as a bonus" when you've seen titles in your lifetime and are likely to see more. 

 

Our intensity and love for our teams is not the problem.  The problem is that our teams haven't brought home any hardware since 1964.  We, as fans, don't own that flaw, we just try to deal with it as best as we can and as fans in other city certainly would were they in our shoes.  But we're not fundamentally any different than they are.

I reached a turning point after the Finals last year.  I went Mavaliers crazy, but then actually felt some sympathy towards him afterwards.  I'm glad he won.  Not a lot of people will say this, but he deserved it.  He improved himself as a player and a person.  He was a better teammate and a better representative of the game throughout the whole playoffs.  He carried Miami to this title and started playing more like the Lebron we saw the first 5-6 years here.  Unbelievable talent and unquestionably now the best player in the game.

 

He "deserved" it?  This is semantics to some degree, but I don't think that anyone "deserves" a championship.  Though if there were a list of players that "deserve" a title, I would think that there would be many others in line in front of him.  However he definitely put in the work and effort and earned it, but he didn't deserve it.  And I don't understand anyone having sympathy for him, either.  Most of the crap he's had to deal with he's brought upon himself for being arrogant, self-centered, conniving, and disingenuous in words and actions.

 

To be clear, he was never fully committed to winning a title in Cleveland, he may have wanted it and he tried at it, but he had a sense of entitlement that prevented him from doing what was necessary to get it.  If there's one area where's he matured since moving to Miami, it's in that he's changed his attitude and understanding in what is actually necessary to win himself a ring.  He definitely stepped his game up on the court, but off the court, as a person, he's still as arrogant and self-centered as ever.  I really don't see any improvement out of him in that area, especially after reading what he apparently said last night.  He may have a ring now, but I don't he'll ever not be a tactless jerk.

1. Having a sense of pride about mediocrity.  I don't see Cleveland fans demanding much of their teams outside of competitiveness.

 

Absolutely not true as a general rule.

 

2. Relishing the role of National Sports Victim.  Philadelphia does its fair share of whining, but Cleland probably takes the cake in this category.  Cincinnati had their  former franchise QB walk out on them with four years left on his contract and that city still doesn't weep like Cleveland did over Lebron.

 

You're equating the LeBron James situation to Carson Palmer?  Personally I think that's a huge stretch.  I think that any city with a large, passionate fanbase that had to deal with what Cleveland has had to deal with (either the James situation specifically or the numerous crushing sports defeats over the years) would react as we have reacted. 

I can agree on the 'earned it' / 'deserved it' semantics.  Whatever.

 

However, other than perhaps an inkling of credibility to the conspiracy theory that he threw the Boston series in 2010, I don't think you can even make the suggestion that he never wanted a title here in Cleveland.  Nonsense.  He played his arse off for this team for at least 6 3/4 years.  Game 5 against Detroit?  Anybody?  Two straight seasons with the best record in the league.  Two straight MVPs.  He just wasn't as mature as he made himself out to be and a lot of us thought he was.  He didn't make the adjustments to his game that he made this year which allowed him to get over the hump.  And, let's not underestimate that things fell pretty nicely for Miami this offseason, with the icing on the cake being the role players chipping in a lion's share of the 14-26 shooting behind the arc last night.  Top that off with the news that Perkins (OKC's 'enforcer') was playing with a torn groin.  Give us that luck in 07-10 and we have a ring or two as well.

I can agree on the 'earned it' / 'deserved it' semantics.  Whatever.

 

However, other than perhaps an inkling of credibility to the conspiracy theory that he threw the Boston series in 2010, I don't think you can even make the suggestion that he never wanted a title here in Cleveland.  Nonsense.  He played his arse off for this team for at least 6 3/4 years.  Game 5 against Detroit?  Anybody?  Two straight seasons with the best record in the league.  Two straight MVPs.  He just wasn't as mature as he made himself out to be and a lot of us thought he was.  He didn't make the adjustments to his game that he made this year which allowed him to get over the hump.  And, let's not underestimate that things fell pretty nicely for Miami this offseason, with the icing on the cake being the role players chipping in a lion's share of the 14-26 shooting behind the arc last night.  Top that off with the news that Perkins (OKC's 'enforcer') was playing with a torn groin.  Give us that luck in 07-10 and we have a ring or two as well.

 

Right, things definitely fell their way this season, like Derrick Rose going down in game one of the playoffs. 

 

My point was not about LeBron wanting a title while in Cleveland.  I have little doubt that he want to win one here.  My point has more to do with him being really committed to actually doing what was necessary off (and to some degree on) the court to get that title.  Things like meeting Michael Redd at the airport when he visited with Cavaliers management (and helping to recruit players in general).  Or signing a long-term to indicate to guys like Trevor Ariza that he was in it for the long haul.  Little things like that that his ego prevented him from doing here, he's gladly been doing since going to Miami.  As I said upthread, everyone wants to blame Paxson and Ferry for failing to surround James with the pieces to win it all, but the truth is that James did not make their jobs any easier, which made it more difficult for the entire organization to get that title. 

 

I guess I'm just a little bitter that he wouldn't sacrifice a bit of his ego for the betterment of the franchise while in Cleveland, but he's had no problem doing so for Miami.  On second thought, maybe you're right, maybe that is a sign of maturity.

^ i feel as if we cant compare Lebron 2003-2008 and Lebron post 2008.  Lebron was out of his mind at a young stage when there wasnt expectations.  Once the expectations came and then the olympics when he allegedly conspired with Wade and Bosh about getting together, i feel he was checked out knowing where his future was going.  How was he to win a ring here in 2010 and justify leaving if winning was most important to him.  I honestly think 2010 was a wasted, thrown season and he gave up.  Thats fine, whatever, but dont compare those years to 2007 when he was trying to establish himself. 

 

Its over, hes done.  I jsut wish the national media would leave us out of it.

Yesterday night as he held the trophy would have been LBJ's perfect chance to apologize to Cleveland.  I heard nothing.  None the less, I am still amazed by his talent.  Just wish he could step up his backstage game and leave his old neighborhood handlers behind and embrace the fact that he has risen above the Akron projects. 

^^

 

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2.

 

If we have to have the conversation, can we at least limit it to people who actually have some sense of what 'Cleveland sports fan' relishes in and has a sense of pride about.  I realize the door is wide open for cheap shots from people who 'relish' and 'take pride' in those sort of antics, but please don't generalize on subject you know nothing about.  Let's not turn this into another "AFC North thread" debacle................ whose stupid idea was that anyway

 

I know nothing about Cleveland now?  News to me.

 

The Browns home attendance is always one of the tops in the league.  What has their record been lately?  Off the top of my head:

 

2011: 5/11

2010: 5/11

2009: 4/12

 

They haven't won more than 5 games since 2007 I believe.  Having a sense of pride about mediocrity is showing up to games to root for a team that consistently delivers a mediocre product.  Cincinnati fans smartened up and curbed their direct spending with Mike Brown, gaining them leverage in ticket prices and other concessions the owner has made in the past 9 months.

 

How many more 5-11's do Cleveland fans have to endure before they boycott the stadium? 

1. Having a sense of pride about mediocrity.  I don't see Cleveland fans demanding much of their teams outside of competitiveness.

 

Absolutely not true as a general rule.

 

2. Relishing the role of National Sports Victim.  Philadelphia does its fair share of whining, but Cleland probably takes the cake in this category.  Cincinnati had their  former franchise QB walk out on them with four years left on his contract and that city still doesn't weep like Cleveland did over Lebron.

 

You're equating the LeBron James situation to Carson Palmer?  Personally I think that's a huge stretch.  I think that any city with a large, passionate fanbase that had to deal with what Cleveland has had to deal with (either the James situation specifically or the numerous crushing sports defeats over the years) would react as we have reacted. 

 

No situation could compare to the Lebron-Cleveland fallout.  Why?  Carson Palmer, a former #1 overall, once one of the best players in the game, quit on his team halfway through a 2010 season that began with Super Bowl aspirations and then retired in order to force a trade.  That has never happened before.  If anything, there's no comparing Cincinnati's situation to anyone else's.

 

There are other cities that have experienced significant sports tragedy, including my example of Cincinnati. 

 

The Drive?  How about Joe Montana going down the field on the Bengals in the 88' Super Bowl?

 

The Fumble?  How about The Hit?  A 66-yard completion to Chris Henry turns into an Carson Palmer ACL injury and a lifetime of What If's...The hit that took Carson out didn't become illegal until it happened to Tom Brady a few years later...how do you think Cincinnati fans felt seeing that the league cared so little about them?

 

The Decision?  How about The Strike?  The Reds were one of the best teams in baseball with a Hall of Famer in the middle of their lineup (Barry Larkin) in 1994.  Either the Braves, Expos or Reds were going to win the World Series that year.  In 1995 the team was a little older and couldn't keep up with the fresher Atlanta squad in the playoffs.  1994 may have been their time.

 

The Injury.  Kenyon Martin breaks his leg the University of Cincinnati's conference tournament in 2000.  The Bearcats were ranked #1 in the country and the prohibitive favorite to win it all.

 

Pete Rose received a lifetime ban for gambling that no commissioner dare touch, yet Mark McGwire could use steroids to increase his own odds of winning and is currently employed by the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

I think you just gave credence to my belief that a good section of the Cleveland fanbase does feel victimized.  Other cities have had to deal with sports tragedy too.

*asterisk* season!

 

1. Having a sense of pride about mediocrity.  I don't see Cleveland fans demanding much of their teams outside of competitiveness.

 

Absolutely not true as a general rule.

 

2. Relishing the role of National Sports Victim.  Philadelphia does its fair share of whining, but Cleland probably takes the cake in this category.  Cincinnati had their  former franchise QB walk out on them with four years left on his contract and that city still doesn't weep like Cleveland did over Lebron.

 

You're equating the LeBron James situation to Carson Palmer?  Personally I think that's a huge stretch.  I think that any city with a large, passionate fanbase that had to deal with what Cleveland has had to deal with (either the James situation specifically or the numerous crushing sports defeats over the years) would react as we have reacted. 

 

No situation could compare to the Lebron-Cleveland fallout.  Why?  Carson Palmer, a former #1 overall, once one of the best players in the game, quit on his team halfway through a 2010 season that began with Super Bowl aspirations and then retired in order to force a trade.  That has never happened before.  If anything, there's no comparing Cincinnati's situation to anyone else's.

 

There are other cities that have experienced significant sports tragedy, including my example of Cincinnati. 

 

The Drive?  How about Joe Montana going down the field on the Bengals in the 88' Super Bowl?

 

The Fumble?  How about The Hit?  A 66-yard completion to Chris Henry turns into an Carson Palmer ACL injury and a lifetime of What If's...The hit that took Carson out didn't become illegal until it happened to Tom Brady a few years later...how do you think Cincinnati fans felt seeing that the league cared so little about them?

 

The Decision?  How about The Strike?  The Reds were one of the best teams in baseball with a Hall of Famer in the middle of their lineup (Barry Larkin) in 1994.  Either the Braves, Expos or Reds were going to win the World Series that year.  In 1995 the team was a little older and couldn't keep up with the fresher Atlanta squad in the playoffs.  1994 may have been their time.

 

The Injury.  Kenyon Martin breaks his leg the University of Cincinnati's conference tournament in 2000.  The Bearcats were ranked #1 in the country and the prohibitive favorite to win it all.

 

Pete Rose received a lifetime ban for gambling that no commissioner dare touch, yet Mark McGwire could use steroids to increase his own odds of winning and is currently employed by the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

I think you just gave credence to my belief that a good section of the Cleveland fanbase does feel victimized.  Other cities have had to deal with sports tragedy too.

 

While i understand your frustrations as a cincy sports fan, talk to us when is it 2041 and you are 50 years out from your last championship. 

No situation could compare to the Lebron-Cleveland fallout.  Why?  Carson Palmer, a former #1 overall, once one of the best players in the game, quit on his team halfway through a 2010 season that began with Super Bowl aspirations and then retired in order to force a trade.  That has never happened before.  If anything, there's no comparing Cincinnati's situation to anyone else's.

 

There are other cities that have experienced significant sports tragedy, including my example of Cincinnati. 

 

The Drive?  How about Joe Montana going down the field on the Bengals in the 88' Super Bowl?

 

The Fumble?  How about The Hit?  A 66-yard completion to Chris Henry turns into an Carson Palmer ACL injury and a lifetime of What If's...The hit that took Carson out didn't become illegal until it happened to Tom Brady a few years later...how do you think Cincinnati fans felt seeing that the league cared so little about them?

 

The Decision?  How about The Strike?  The Reds were one of the best teams in baseball with a Hall of Famer in the middle of their lineup (Barry Larkin) in 1994.  Either the Braves, Expos or Reds were going to win the World Series that year.  In 1995 the team was a little older and couldn't keep up with the fresher Atlanta squad in the playoffs.  1994 may have been their time.

 

The Injury.  Kenyon Martin breaks his leg the University of Cincinnati's conference tournament in 2000.  The Bearcats were ranked #1 in the country and the prohibitive favorite to win it all.

 

Pete Rose received a lifetime ban for gambling that no commissioner dare touch, yet Mark McGwire could use steroids to increase his own odds of winning and is currently employed by the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

I think you just gave credence to my belief that a good section of the Cleveland fanbase does feel victimized.  Other cities have had to deal with sports tragedy too.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, Carson Palmer was the local hero from Middletown, Ohio who was going to save the city from their 70 year title drought.  Except for the part about him being from Middletown.  And the part about the seven decade drought. 

 

Really though, as someone else pointed out, it's that last statement that is the key here.  Out of all of the cities with at least three major pro sports franchises, none has had to deal with almost a half-century without one winning a title.  If some of us "feel victimized," it's a pretty legitimate feeling.  While Cincinnati's luck may not be the greatest, at least most Reds fans can remember what it's like to see a team lift the hardware.

 

Ultimately as I've said time and again, most of the Cleveland sports fan's psychopathology, most of the way we look at past defeats, is built around not having a recent championship.  And to bring this discussion full circle and back on topic, it's why watching the best player in the NBA who we drafted win a title in another city is a difficult pill to swallow.  If we had a few titles under our belt, the anger and sadness towards James would still be there, but the intensity would be nowhere close to what it is with the current situation.

*asterisk* season!

 

As much as I'd love to agree, what's this based on?

^^

 

1.

 

2.

 

If we have to have the conversation, can we at least limit it to people who actually have some sense of what 'Cleveland sports fan' relishes in and has a sense of pride about.  I realize the door is wide open for cheap shots from people who 'relish' and 'take pride' in those sort of antics, but please don't generalize on subject you know nothing about.  Let's not turn this into another "AFC North thread" debacle................ whose stupid idea was that anyway

 

I know nothing about Cleveland now?  News to me.

 

The Browns home attendance is always one of the tops in the league.  What has their record been lately?  Off the top of my head:

 

2011: 5/11

2010: 5/11

2009: 4/12

 

They haven't won more than 5 games since 2007 I believe.  Having a sense of pride about mediocrity is showing up to games to root for a team that consistently delivers a mediocre product.  Cincinnati fans smartened up and curbed their direct spending with Mike Brown, gaining them leverage in ticket prices and other concessions the owner has made in the past 9 months.

 

How many more 5-11's do Cleveland fans have to endure before they boycott the stadium?

 

This post is rich with irony.

 

Cleveland is a Browns town.  Always has been and always will be and fans will support the franchise through thick and thin.  Additionally, the NFL is the most popular professional sports league in the Americas, and since there are only eight home games in each market, you can pretty much guarantee that unless you have a team in a place like Miles City, Montana (i.e. the middle of nowhere), the stadium is likely to be 90% full no matter how good the teams on the field are.

 

Now all of that being said, if you were paying close attention, you'd know that over the past season or two, there have been about 2-3 home games that were in danger of being blacked out because not enough tickets were sold.  Luckily in those cases the local media purchased the tickets so the games would be able to be televised, but by no means do the Browns have any kind of a sellout streak through the lousy football of recent years.

Let's not turn this into another "AFC North thread" debacle................ whose stupid idea was that anyway

 

That was me. Not one of my finer moments.

*asterisk* season!

 

As much as I'd love to agree, what's this based on?

 

the shortened season of course - fake title! fake title!

 

to be fair, it works the same in our direction too, the tribe was on a holy tear when the 1994 mlb season was cancelled. not to mention the poor expos! woulda been an indians-expos ws, with an *asterisk, but if the tribe won that one i wouldnt have cared about it lol!

I recall Tony Gwynn was hitting around the 400 mark, and Bagwell had some insane home run numbers. What a waste of a season

Does NBA stand for National Baseball Association? hint hint

No situation could compare to the Lebron-Cleveland fallout.  Why?  Carson Palmer, a former #1 overall, once one of the best players in the game, quit on his team halfway through a 2010 season that began with Super Bowl aspirations and then retired in order to force a trade.  That has never happened before.  If anything, there's no comparing Cincinnati's situation to anyone else's.

 

There are other cities that have experienced significant sports tragedy, including my example of Cincinnati. 

 

The Drive?  How about Joe Montana going down the field on the Bengals in the 88' Super Bowl?

 

The Fumble?  How about The Hit?  A 66-yard completion to Chris Henry turns into an Carson Palmer ACL injury and a lifetime of What If's...The hit that took Carson out didn't become illegal until it happened to Tom Brady a few years later...how do you think Cincinnati fans felt seeing that the league cared so little about them?

 

The Decision?  How about The Strike?  The Reds were one of the best teams in baseball with a Hall of Famer in the middle of their lineup (Barry Larkin) in 1994.  Either the Braves, Expos or Reds were going to win the World Series that year.  In 1995 the team was a little older and couldn't keep up with the fresher Atlanta squad in the playoffs.  1994 may have been their time.

 

The Injury.  Kenyon Martin breaks his leg the University of Cincinnati's conference tournament in 2000.  The Bearcats were ranked #1 in the country and the prohibitive favorite to win it all.

 

Pete Rose received a lifetime ban for gambling that no commissioner dare touch, yet Mark McGwire could use steroids to increase his own odds of winning and is currently employed by the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

I think you just gave credence to my belief that a good section of the Cleveland fanbase does feel victimized.  Other cities have had to deal with sports tragedy too.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, Carson Palmer was the local hero from Middletown, Ohio who was going to save the city from their 70 year title drought.  Except for the part about him being from Middletown.  And the part about the seven decade drought. 

 

Really though, as someone else pointed out, it's that last statement that is the key here.  Out of all of the cities with at least three major pro sports franchises, none has had to deal with almost a half-century without one winning a title.  If some of us "feel victimized," it's a pretty legitimate feeling.  While Cincinnati's luck may not be the greatest, at least most Reds fans can remember what it's like to see a team lift the hardware.

 

Ultimately as I've said time and again, most of the Cleveland sports fan's psychopathology, most of the way we look at past defeats, is built around not having a recent championship.  And to bring this discussion full circle and back on topic, it's why watching the best player in the NBA who we drafted win a title in another city is a difficult pill to swallow.  If we had a few titles under our belt, the anger and sadness towards James would still be there, but the intensity would be nowhere close to what it is with the current situation.

 

I honestly don't want to make this convo redundant or appear as if I'm attacking Cleveland fans.  It just seems that no matter what, Cleveland fans will believe that their misfortune supersedes that of any other fanbase.  The Bengals have never won a Super Bowl.  The NBA squad left town, never to return like the Browns did.  Just a little food for thought.

^nah!  food for your thought - the bengals actually made it to superbowls!! cle fans would be a lot less woe me if that had ever happened. not to mention the reds ws wins, which really makes cinci a poor candidate for comparison to cle pro sports misery.  edit -- i almost forgot, also lost nhl team too, but won what? indoor soccer in a disbanded sport? thats like a booby prize. so not even close.

I can't believe this conversation has gone on this long. No other city in the country has gone through the sports' hell that Clevelanders have. This isn't a woe-is-me claim; it's simply what it is. Fifty plus years. No major championships other than NPSL, and i'm really reaching there.

 

And all this talk about Carson Palmer. The guy left his team on awful terms, whereas the entire Cleveland Browns left the team on even worse terms .... only to win a Bowl a little later and leaving us with this expansion crap.

 

Who hurt their team more, Carson or Lebron....well, football is a team sport more so than basketball, so I'd give the chosen one the edge here. Two years and 40 wins later, it's been really ugly. Meanwhile the Bengals are studs (remarkably).

Actually, I would prefer that we not have a debate on who's had it worse. Ever go to a bar and there's this beaten-down guy at the end of the bar who has his own private stool to sit on for the past few decades? From it, he cops an attitude about everything, has a chip on his shoulder about everything and lives his life through a rear-view mirror. When some poor unsuspecting soul sits down next to him and starts complaining about something, the bartender winces. Why? For the next however-long the new arrival cares to stay, the debate continues for who has had the toughest life. And who wins? What do they win? The chance to sit on that stool for the next 50 years until someone else comes along who can convince someone he has had a tougher life?

 

No thanks. There's a great line in the movie The Shawshank Redemption: "Get busy living, or get busy dying." Yesterday is dead. Today and tomorrow are still alive. And if pro sports is that depressing for you (as it is sometimes for me), then find something else that brings you joy. I have no intention of spending the rest of my life on that barstool, looking back. Look ahead or die.

Actually, I would prefer that we not have a debate on who's had it worse. Ever go to a bar and there's this beaten-down guy at the end of the bar who has his own private stool to sit on for the past few decades? From it, he cops an attitude about everything, has a chip on his shoulder about everything and lives his life through a rear-view mirror. When some poor unsuspecting soul sits down next to him and starts complaining about something, the bartender winces. Why? For the next however-long the new arrival cares to stay, the debate continues for who has had the toughest life. And who wins? What do they win? The chance to sit on that stool for the next 50 years until someone else comes along who can convince someone he has had a tougher life?

 

No thanks. There's a great line in the movie The Shawshank Redemption: "Get busy living, or get busy dying." Yesterday is dead. Today and tomorrow are still alive. And if pro sports is that depressing for you (as it is sometimes for me), then find something else that brings you joy. I have no intention of spending the rest of my life on that barstool, looking back. Look ahead or die.

 

Nice post, KJP.  While I am a big Cleveland sports fan and follow them through and through, i never complain about curses.  I go back to growing my own vegetables/fruits, running races and killing the day with a good microbrew.  True hobbies that you find with your own passion for something will never let you down.

And I wasn't singling out anyone. I just think its more important to look ahead. I love learning about history, but not as a means to get energized from regret.

 

EDIT: BTW, that's why I love summer and Browns training camp. I love to look ahead as hope springs eternal! Then comes fall and I start watching other teams and doing other things. :)

 

But this thread is about basketball. So who's going to the Heat parade today?? ;)

^Bah. BTW, did everyone see Mark Johnson's 'meltdown' after the Heat win? I got a chuckle out of it.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/newschannel5-meteorologist-mark-johnson-shows-frustration-for-miami-heats-win-during-forecast

No thanks.