^If we had better leadership at RTA, then I could see it happening. Has ODOT ever done a project where it includes mass transit? I just don't see if happening.

Have we learned nothing from ripping out neighborhoods in cleveland.

 

of course drivers who dont live in the neighborhood, yet want to drag race through it, won't care since their neighborhood will not be affected.

I don't think ODOT, in general, has learned anything from the past. But I guess that's because they're an organization that, historically, has built for the automobile in mind. I really wish that the "T" in transportation would truly mean that, in all forms. Otherwise, they should really change ODOT's name to something more like the Ohio Department of the Automobile Favorers.

 

Transportation doesn't only mean cars, people!! :(

It will be interesting to see how many homes this would take out. Back in 2005, the projected path of the roadway wouldn't have taken out that many homes. With the large amount of foreclosures and abandonemnt, the takes may not be so high in number.

^If we had better leadership at RTA, then I could see it happening. Has ODOT ever done a project where it includes mass transit? I just don't see if happening.

 

ODOT was more interested in including rail in this project than RTA was. Instead, RTA wants this road as a path for express buses from the suburbs. Thus, see my comments from a few posts ago.

Well KJP, I know in the past you were a supporter of this project, welcome to the dark side!

 

This project is half-assed and wrong!

Where is the traffic study for the Innerbelt Cuyahoga River bridge anyway?  I see the prime motivation for this OC highway to be to take traffic away from the Innerbelt Bridge (in view of the overhaul of the current span that is going to have to happen in the near future).

 

I am curious of how much of the Innerbelt traffic is originated downtown or in the city of Cleveland and how much could be shunted onto I-90 west through some improved routing from the flats up onto I-90 west.  (Hence taking traffic off of the Cuyahogo River bridge).

I know that this is wishful thinking, especially with ODOT, but if we absolutely MUST have this roadway built, it must (in my opinion) include rail access straight down the middle of it throughout the entire length of the roadway.  We don't live in an era of cheap gas prices anymore, and providing quick access to exurbanites isn't the best urban planning idea floating around C-town right now.

 

I understand your thinking and, in fact, transit-in-the-freeway is what Chicago has done to replace and extend its CTA L lines (in one case, with the L riding on the surface parallel to the current Eisenhower Exp).  But our RTA Red Line does not need extension or relocation from this area (esp w/ ECP going on line soon), as it is grade separated and doesn't interfere w/ street traffic – and there are no live 3rd rails endangering residents on the street surface as was apparently the case re the Eisenhower/Blue Line relocation (a situation that still exists at the ends of a few current L lines).  So putting the Red Line in the middle of the Opportunity Corridor roadway is counterintuitive to developing walkable, TOD districts, because the high-speed roadway discourages pedestrians and pushes potential development away from transit stations.

 

And I won’t even get into the fact the latest OC proposal has the road cutting through residential areas.  There’s just nothing sensible or good about this project only for the select suburbanites to speed cross-town faster.  KJP is correct in noting the outmoded-ness of OC planning (as in 5 decades late!), juxtaposed in the current $4.00+/gallon, soon-to-be $150/barrel for crude oil…

 

Can someone please hit Frank Jackson's snooze alarm?  I tend to like Frank, but why is he pushing this baby so hard when so many "Forgotten Triangle" residents don't even own cars (and can't afford to)??

 

This will be murder on east side neighborhoods and is, in light of gas prices and what their continued increase means to population trends, a terrible misuse of money.  The "forgotten triangle" notwithstanding, increasing the ease of access from the west and south side suburbs only hurts the other neighborhoods adjacent to UC such as Glenville, and Hough which with some smart investment have an incredible opportunity for rejuvenation in the next 2 decades if you ask me. 

^ I could see an argument for how it would hurt Fairfax, but I could only see how this would help Glenville and Hough.  They wouldn't be touched by the OC.

Before writing off the suburbs as dead, please check out the following.  :wink2:

 

http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080616First-FCX-Clarity/

 

Not sure to what thread this fits

Before writing off the suburbs as dead, please check out the following.  :wink2:

 

http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080616First-FCX-Clarity/

 

Not sure to what thread this fits

 

A) This is in no way related to the topic

B) Where/When did anyone say the 'burbs were dying?

Urb-a-saurus, please post that at the "high fuel prices" thread or even at the Peak Oil thread. Or post it in reply to my message about the problems associated with hydrogen-fueled cars:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16127.msg298074.html#msg298074

 

^ I could see an argument for how it would hurt Fairfax, but I could only see how this would help Glenville and Hough.  They wouldn't be touched by the OC.

 

I'm talking about larger-picture.  Regardless of the physical location of the "Opportunity Corridor", it's presence is a waste and hurts all neighborhoods adjacent to University Circle which would otherwise benefit from their proximity.

 

If the biggest problem with UC is that it's a pain in the ass to commute there from the west side suburbs, I'm totally fine with that.  All the better for places like Hough and Glenville.  UC is incentivizing* living in these neighborhoods already, or planning to, according to the UC thread in Cleveland Projects and Construction.  Now's not the time to negate those benefits by building a Chester Avenue from 490 to the parking ocean at Carnegie and 105th

 

*sorry for making up a word

Sorry, but you didn't make up that word. It's been floating around in planning circles for years. Doesn't mean that I don't hate it though!!

 

And I agree with your message 100 percent.

^ I could see an argument for how it would hurt Fairfax, but I could only see how this would help Glenville and Hough. They wouldn't be touched by the OC.

 

I'm talking about larger-picture. Regardless of the physical location of the "Opportunity Corridor", it's presence is a waste and hurts all neighborhoods adjacent to University Circle which would otherwise benefit from their proximity.

 

If the biggest problem with UC is that it's a pain in the ass to commute there from the west side suburbs, I'm totally fine with that. All the better for places like Hough and Glenville. ...

Was there a traffic study that said that the "Opportunity Corridor" would be carrying a lot of traffic from the West Side suburbs?

Yep. See.........

 

http://www.innerbelt.org/OpportunityCorridor/OCfrontpage1.htm

I don't know that a study was necessary.. The thing starts at the 490 stub and rolls to the Clinic's back yard.  And as has been pointed out, relatively few in the path of the thing own cars anyway.  I suppose people in Kinsman could use it to get to 490 faster and then drive to Brecksville.  That would be nice.

 

Incentivizing, i actually gagged a little, and Firefox underlined it in red so I'm going to continue to say it's not a word, no matter what the planners say.  :-)

I believe its part of a reliever corridor NOACA had in an old long range plan; sort of an outer innerbelt.  I like the idea of getting the straight shot from I-490/E55 right to the west end of Shaker Blvd, and then on out.  No doubt Shaker Hts will barricade Shaker Blvd at the Cleveland line  :wink:  They have a knack for that.

 

PS  Why is the innerbelt named as such.  It does not go all the way around like a belt does.  I propose "Innersash" or Innercravat"

I believe its part of a reliever corridor NOACA had in an old long range plan; sort of an outer innerbelt.  I like the idea of getting the straight shot from I-490/E55 right to the west end of Shaker Blvd, and then on out.  No doubt Shaker Hts will barricade Shaker Blvd at the Cleveland line  :wink:  They have a knack for that.

 

PS  Why is the innerbelt named as such.  It does not go all the way around like a belt does.  I propose "Innersash" or Innercravat"

 

Umm, this project wouldn't go near Shaker Hts., so why make that crack?

I believe its part of a reliever corridor NOACA had in an old long range plan; sort of an outer innerbelt. I like the idea of getting the straight shot from I-490/E55 right to the west end of Shaker Blvd, and then on out. No doubt Shaker Hts will barricade Shaker Blvd at the Cleveland line :wink: They have a knack for that.

 

PS Why is the innerbelt named as such. It does not go all the way around like a belt does. I propose "Innersash" or Innercravat"

 

Huh?  I'm trying to make sense of your point.  You love sprawl?  You dislike Shaker?  What is it?

I believe its part of a reliever corridor NOACA had in an old long range plan; sort of an outer innerbelt.  I like the idea of getting the straight shot from I-490/E55 right to the west end of Shaker Blvd, and then on out.  No doubt Shaker Hts will barricade Shaker Blvd at the Cleveland line  :wink:  They have a knack for that.

... "Innersash" or Innercravat"

Huh?  I'm trying to make sense of your point.  You love sprawl?  You dislike Shaker?  What is it?

Well that's a bit much.  I lived at three different addresses in the Heights and always wished that I could proceed down Mayfield or Cedar and get on a freeway to Berea or Cuyahoga Heights where I had business.  Now, Carnegie and Chester function as eighty-block-long freeway connectors.

 

Thanks for the link about Innerbelt.org, KJP, but that is a lot to read to find traffic predictions.  I never found them.  I think there is a fair point to be made that a highway/boulevard in Fairfax-Forgotten Triangle hardly serves a neighborhood when the people don't have cars and fuel for cars is only going to get more expensive so they never will.

Quote from Boreal:  Well that's a bit much.  I lived at three different addresses in the Heights and always wished that I could proceed down Mayfield or Cedar and get on a freeway to Berea or Cuyahoga Heights where I had business.  Now, Carnegie and Chester function as eighty-block-long freeway connectors.

 

Precisely, Boreal: YOU got it.  :clap: By the way, even though the proposed roadway iteself does not come within 1-2 miles of the Shaker Line, if it connected directly to the Woodhill, Buckeye intersection with Shaker Blvd, it would potentially send considerable extra traffic down that venerable boulevard.  If so, the project WOULD affect Shaker Hts.  That would not likely be popular there.  The barricade reference was of course a joke (with a grain of truth), to when Shaker barricaded a number of its streets touching Cleveland to to try isolate itself from the city (I mean, limit through traffic :wink:) many years ago. Tough Room!  :-D

 

By the way, I vaguely remember that when I worked at NOACA in the 70's, the "Opportunity Corridor" was referred to as the WECO project after a local community organization that was trying to resurrect the area.  The more things change......

The Woodhill/Shaker Blvd. intersection is a good mile away from Shaker Hts.  It would upset the balance of Shaker Buckeye, Fairfax or Woodhill Neighborhods as more people would be traveling to University Circle.

 

Shaker Blvd. has way to many traffic lights to really be affected by this.

 

Using the Shaker/Lomond vs Cleveland/Lee-Glendale neighborhood stand off as an example is poor at best.

I think he meant it as a joke more than an example.

 

I disagree with Shaker Blvd. not being affected.  I can't stand to travel on that road if I'm coming from the Heights area to downtown, but I know many people that will go down to Shaker Blvd. to get downtown.  If Shaker ended at a freeway rather than Buckeye, I can see many more people taking that route from Shaker/southern CH/UH/Beachwood area to get downtown.  And I think it would have really bad effects on Shaker Square.

I think he meant it as a joke more than an example.

 

I disagree with Shaker Blvd. not being affected.  I can't stand to travel on that road if I'm coming from the Heights area to downtown, but I know many people that will go down to Shaker Blvd. to get downtown.  If Shaker ended at a freeway rather than Buckeye, I can see many more people taking that route from Shaker/southern CH/UH/Beachwood area to get downtown.  And I think it would have really bad effects on Shaker Square.

 

Yes it would and would affect - most importantly - MY quality of life!

 

I've never been a fan of this craptastic project and have let the Mayor know on more than one occasion!

Good.  I'm VERY against it as well.  I think the large affect it would have on the Heights would be for the worse.  It would really only be for the better for the Beachwood area, where their roads are built like highways already anyways.

Good.  I'm VERY against it as well.  I think the large affect it would have on the Heights would be for the worse.  It would really only be for the better for the Beachwood area, where their roads are built like highways already anyways.

 

...... I don't want those people driving thru my beautiful and peaceful neighborhood just to get back to their tacky split level late 70s gaudy "homes", if you can call them that!

 

I'll have Clvlndr, the other UO Shaker Square resident and ajknee out on Shaker Blvd. before I let them build this opportunity access road!

I'd be right there joining you.  This road is the worst idea ever.

Thanks, Jam, you got the meaning too!  The Clark Freeway (I 290) was nixed over 40 years ago, but the demand that spurred it didn't completely disappear, although I am sure many would be Clarkers are jamming I 480 making for that awful pileup near Warrensville and Northfield so they can go north on I 271.  Some of them might switch to the OC to get to Shaker.  Anyway, the OC, if built, would be as much a commuter alley as a neighborhood stimulus.  I do have to say though, even a paver like me would have cringed at the destruction of the Shaker Lakes.  I suppose we could tunnel under Shaker Square (just kidding).

 

Thanks, Jam, you got the meaning too!  The Clark Freeway (I 290) was nixed over 40 years ago, but the demand that spurred it didn't completely disappear, although I am sure many would be Clarkers are jamming I 480 making for that awful pileup near Warrensville and Northfield so they can go north on I 271.  Some of them might switch to the OC to get to Shaker.  Anyway, the OC, if built, would be as much a commuter alley as a neighborhood stimulus.  I do have to say though, even a paver like me would have cringed at the destruction of the Shaker Lakes.  I suppose we could tunnel under Shaker Square (just kidding).

 

dude i got it but you used two different "situations".  and the only tunnels under Shaker Square had better be to drop the train into a subway!

 

As agreed by many, the OC would not help anyone in the neighborhood it will dismantle and further corrode.

It's amazing how, in this town, people won't stop at anything to build the Clark Freeway in whatever form: the (so-called) OC, or the Shaker Blvd extension.  They simply won't rest... And the gall to come up w/ BS like it will help poor residents who don't own cars, or it will "save" University Circle from monumental, choking traffic (as if its like 42nd & Broadway in Manhattan, NOT!)... Worse, is that gullible Clevelanders just eat it up acting like this crock is somehow a lifeline for the city...

 

Sheesh!!

 

I'll have Clvlndr, the other UO Shaker Square resident and ajknee out on Shaker Blvd. before I let them build this opportunity access road!

 

Hey, I'll lay down in front of the 1st bulldozer... um, right behind you, Big Guy.  :-D

Hey, I'll lay down in front of the 1st bulldozer... um, right behind you, Big Guy.   :-D

 

jam40jeff, goes first.  I'll supervise from the sidewalk!

It's amazing how, in this town, people won't stop at anything to build the Clark Freeway in whatever form: the (so-called) OC, or the Shaker Blvd extension.  They simply won't rest... And the gall to come up w/ BS like it will help poor residents who don't own cars, or it will "save" University Circle from monumental, choking traffic (as if its like 42nd & Broadway in Manhattan, NOT!)... Worse, is that gullible Clevelanders just eat it up acting like this crock is somehow a lifeline for the city...

 

Sheesh!!

I see a thesis for a letter to the editor in there.  The Plain Dealer wrote yet another editorial in favor of the freeway yesterday: http://www.cleveland.com/editorials/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1214987617145460.xml&coll=2

Step up and take a swing.  Just don't call anybody a boogerhead.

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/lettertoeditor.ssf

^^ I wish I could (I'm not punking out, really, cause your idea is good)... Somebody needs to counter this besides us UOers cause, as we know, the PD usually hasn't a clue and frequently operates at odds with Cleveland's good.  If you read everything in this town other than UO's board you'd think everyone in Cleveland is in lockstep on this... fact is, though, every pol and media source does seem to be...

 

... which is why this city is in the shape it's in (don't get me started; I'm heading for a plane)...

^^ I wish I could (I'm not punking out, really, cause your idea is good)... Somebody needs to counter this besides us UOers cause, as we know, the PD usually hasn't a clue and frequently operates at odds with Cleveland's good.  If you read everything in this town other than UO's board you'd think everyone in Cleveland is in lockstep on this... fact is, though, every pol and media source does seem to be...

 

... which is why this city is in the shape it's in (don't get me started; I'm heading for a plane)...

 

You can write your comments on the plane.  I do it.  Sitting on the taxiway its the best time to write.

^will do... outta here... have a great 4th, folks!

I had kind of come to grips with this OC if indeed it was a boulevard (35 mph and lots of lights and intersections) but its sounds like it may be heading in another direction.

 

Either way, those of us who champion Cleveland really need to find a way to bring together all the various constituencies and impact the direction of this and the interbelt project in general  - somehow become a shadow NOACA group promoting smart growth/transportation planning. KJP's idea (and I'm paraphrasing) of making 490 to 77 to 90 the new interbelt and scrapping the current plan in favor of a boulevard into downtown make more and more sense each day.

 

Despite all the planning/consulting money money already peed away, why not force ODOT to start over and do it right?

Predictable:

 

PD's going all out for this silly road w/ a front page, in-depth advocacy for it.  I just some one would point out (as I have to them) that such a road will actually HURT the Red Line as West and East Siders, now using the Rapid directly through this corridor, will be more likely drive (and not share their seats with THEM).  Maybe, just maybe, a focus on TOD around the existing (and could-be built) Red, Blue-Green stations in this area might be a sounder, urban approach...

 

... and most importantly that St. Paul  where this glowing example is hoisted by the PD, unlike Cleveland, DOESN'T HAVE RAIL TRANSIT AT ALL!! 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2008/07/opportunity_corridor.html

 

Me?  I’ll hold to my belief that there was some kind of deal cut with West Side judges of Juvenile Court who’s new mega-building complex is rising at approx E. 100  & Quincy (2 blocks from a rebuilt Red Line station), to push this road through in exchange for them giving up their outmoded Quadrangle digs for the heart of the ghetto.  Note, the proposed road feeds right into E105 (right next to the aforementioned Rapid station) Also, you can bet the all-powerful Clinic is working behind the scenes to push this freeway/road too.

 

As I’ve said, show me just ONE rail transit (as in NOT ECP) project the PD, and pols ever push in this town as they’re pushing this stupid road.   

:shoot: :shoot: :whip: :whip:

In a year or two, the only people who will be able to afford gasoline will be Cleveland Clinic doctors and executives, plus Cuyahoga County judges. I'm sure they'll love having this road all to themselves. They will make easy targets for the downtrodden who live along this concrete mischief.

i love this line that equates pavement to progress:

 

"They have quietly worked with state and federal "stakeholders" for two years to try to pave the way for new pavement, and new opportunity."

i love this line that equates pavement to progress:

 

"They have quietly worked with state and federal "stakeholders" for two years to try to pave the way for new pavement, and new opportunity."

 

And you've gotta love how the PD touts as some widely renowned expert Norm Krumholz, perhaps the leading rail hater in Greater Cleveland; a man who has as his negative trophy the extremely logical Green Line Mode Mixer, 1.5 mile extension to I-271 he helped kill 30 years ago ... Such a trophy belongs to Albert S. Porter's scuttled downtown subway -- Porter, no doubt, a Krumholz hero... Should anyone be surprised ol' Norm favors shoving a highway right through the car-less, poor East Side?

 

Amazing people are buying this crap hook, line and sinker with no objection... Cleveland: you get what you pay for (including who you elect).

 

This will never get built. There's no money for new road construction. Won't be for at least several years at current materials prices and gas tax revenues.

 

The only way this road gets built is if gas prices down over the next few years to spur more driving and gas tax revenues while reducing materials costs.

 

I think the opposite will happen. From that, many of us in the middle class may get closer to the economic situation of those living in the Forgotten Triangle. And then we may come to understand why they don't support the road's construction.

One other Opportunity Corridor point:  Cleveland already has a very well paved corridor that connects poor neighborhoods to the highway and University Circle: Chester/Euclid/Carnegie.  And yet this corridor is still riddled with brownfields and other vacant and underused land. 

 

If the solution is focusing public subsidies on such a corridor, let's pour them into Midtown before we carve a new one out.

^Agreed

One other Opportunity Corridor point: Cleveland already has a very well paved corridor that connects poor neighborhoods to the highway and University Circle: Chester/Euclid/Carnegie. And yet this corridor is still riddled with brownfields and other vacant and underused land.

 

 

... and why not throw in 2 rapid rail train transit lines (for those not clear on what it is) that weave through the area just waiting for TOD development around their stations.  We have rapid transit, yet act like it doesn't exist (or that it's some cutesie amusment ride REAL people don't seriously use).

You mean these, clvlndr? (see link below to a 2mb report I wrote):

 

http://members.cox.net/kjprendergast/OpportunityCorridorRapidREV.pdf

Not bad; certainly sans the OC.  If it will jump start growth WITHOUT CARS I'm for it... But what's wrong w/ the current lines over the current grid?  During Voinovich's mayoralty, there was talk of adding an E. 89th/Buckeye/Woodland Red Line station; brownfields now, certainly, w/ potential if cleaned up and certainly at the vertex of 3 major arteries; 2 w/ existing RTA bus lines... Although you've said the rising E. 105/Quincy Juvey Center is not TOD, there is potential for spin-off retail development right at/near the RTA stop.  This town needs to build on what it's got before restructuring it (rail expansion is cool, though).

 

All of these ideas, including yours, merit discussion.  Just without the OC.  Lord knows, though a nice system, we could certainly use expandeed rail -- it's beyond credulity, though, that we keep thumbing our collective noses at the system we've got.

There is a huge supporter who's pushing the OC Boulevard -- Albert Ratner. In addition to running Forest City Enterprises, he also serves on ODOT's 21st Century Transportation Task Force.

There is a huge supporter who's pushing the OC Boulevard -- Albert Ratner. In addition to running Forest City Enterprises, he also serves on ODOT's 21st Century Transportation Task Force.

 

I'm not totally surprised.  Though TC sits atop Cleveland's transit hub, FCE has done everything to ignore RTA and discourage transit use.  Tower City literature barely even mentions the Rapid (I've seen some that doesn't at all), but FCE trumpets there oh-so-precocious parking.  Some may defend Ratner/Miller b/c, at least according to some, the city's cross-town school busing plan allegedly flooded TC with kids (largely minority kids) which helped (allegedly) scare away Neiman-Marcus and led to the continued exit of TC high-ends... Maybe, but I'm sure not giving Ratner a bye by any measure.

 

As I've said often, RTA hovers between barely tolearted and deeply despised in the minds/actions of our local leaders.  Nice talk is one thing, but actions speak louder than words.