I may get lit up for it, but I like this project.  The way 490 ends where it does just screams out Mistake.  No, I don't want a freeway through Shaker Lakes.  At all.   

 

327, I hope you don't get Litt up for it.  As I recall, 490 ends there because the funds for what was to be the continuation of I-490 east toward E93rd and then south to connect to the Broadway I-480 exit / freeway stub was traded off for some other transportation projects and possibly a bowl of porridge.  That I-490 was supposed to be a politically acceptable routing for what had previously been part of the Shaker Lakes bound I -290 Clark Fwy east to 271 and the north south Lee Fwy which would have ripped the east side to shreds.  Those two paleozoic freeways were in the 1969 SCOTS (Seven County Transportation Study) study recommendation, which because of a projected population explosion, which sadly happened in reverse in Cleveland, was criss crossed with so many freeways, there would have been one for each of us here.  OK I am exaggerating.

 

So, looking (scrolling and scrolling, lol) at KJP's map, I have to ask.  Is alternative one a redo of Woodland?  On all the alternatives, how do they plan to use the road to revitalize the area?  Are they mostly thinking industrial accessibility?  Are they thinking FOD, Freeway Oriented Development a la Solon/Beachwood (hey they have money and relatively low property taxes?  They used freeways to their advantage.  What will be at the end on E105th street where the thing thuds to a stop?  If they put it up against the rapid/Nickel Plate line, will that crimp redevelopment around it?  Best stay tuned.

 

 

I may get lit up for it, but I like this project. The way 490 ends where it does just screams out Mistake. No, I don't want a freeway through Shaker Lakes. At all.  

 

327, I hope you don't get Litt up for it.

 

Ha, you beat me to it.  I was going to quote that and claim psychic powers.

Is alternative one a redo of Woodland? 

 

Yes.

 

 

On all the alternatives, how do they plan to use the road to revitalize the area?  Are they mostly thinking industrial accessibility?

 

Yes, and warehousing, etc. The Orlando Baking plant and distribution facility that's down there is an example of what they want more of.

 

Are they thinking FOD, Freeway Oriented Development a la Solon/Beachwood (hey they have money and relatively low property taxes?  They used freeways to their advantage.

 

Other than the Fairfax Renaissance Development Corporation's land use masterplan, I don't think the city has considered yet what sort of development patterns are desired for the area. I think that needs to be spelled out with actually zoning and overlays to clarify desired setbacks (or preferably lack of setbacks for pedestrian access), greenspace, stormwater retention areas, and more.

 

What will be at the end on E105th street where the thing thuds to a stop?  If they put it up against the rapid/Nickel Plate line, will that crimp redevelopment around it?  Best stay tuned.

 

Here's a small view of Fairfax's master plan which shows the Opportunity Corridor on it, including where it ends at East 105th....

 

 

It's from.....

 

http://www.fairfaxrenaissance.org/MasterPlan/masterplan.html

^ Here's the master plan from Burten, Bell, Carr CDC, the nonprofit that serves the bulk of the Forgotten Triangle: http://www.bbcdevelopment.org/documents/plans/final/draft%20triangle%20report_10-11.pdf.

 

The Opportunity Corridor was purposely omitted because 1) there is no guarantee that the project will ever happen; and, 2) the planning process was driven by neighborhood residents and other stakeholders, and because ODOT has never made a presentation on the project to those directly affected, staff sought for it not to revolve around the corridor and become convoluted by that single topic.

because they aren't talking about a street with interesections coming off 490 that benefits everyone... they are talking about a thoroughfare with basically no street lights... which benefits no one really except some cars flying from point A to point B. Done correctly this could be a great project that reinvigorates the neighborhoods around it while improving "connectivity". Done as basically an extension of 490, it does nothing but further decimate this neighborhood and make it easier for people who live in the far flung reaches of the west side.

 

To my knowledge they ARE talking about a street with intersections.  They are routing it through an area, however, whose existing network is so hosed that the result is few intersections.  The Alt. 3 alignment abuts the railroad right-of-way and included intersections at every street it happens to encounter:  55th, Kinsman, 75th, 79th, Buckeye, Woodland, 89th, 93rd, Quincy.  Alternative 4 includes a reported 8 signalized intersections between 490 and University Circle.

^ Here's the master plan from Burten, Bell, Carr CDC, the nonprofit that serves the bulk of the Forgotten Triangle: http://www.bbcdevelopment.org/documents/plans/final/draft%20triangle%20report_10-11.pdf.

 

The Opportunity Corridor was purposely omitted because 1) there is no guarantee that the project will ever happen; and, 2) the planning process was driven by neighborhood residents and other stakeholders, and because ODOT has never made a presentation on the project to those directly affected, staff sought for it not to revolve around the corridor and become convoluted by that single topic.

 

Wow, this has been talked about for some time.  ODOT really should meet with the locals.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/opportunity_corridor_project_b.html#more

Opportunity Corridor project between Interstate 490 and University Circle may be back on track

Posted by Karen Farkas

Ahhhh but who cares about the triangle anyway, those people are poor and don't count. 

 

Ahh I love when this line gets pulled.  If one thinks it makes sense to make University Circle, the 2nd largest area of employment in the region, more connected, then obviously they do not give a F**k about the poor! 

 

Like I said before, let's retard further growth and accessibility because certain areas have not had any vibrancy for 50 years.

 

I just can't fathom how opponents think this will not have benefits for the surrounding communities.  The more UC grows, the more the surrounding areas benefit.

Ahhhh but who cares about the triangle anyway, those people are poor and don't count. 

 

Ahh I love when this line gets pulled.  If one thinks it makes sense to make University Circle, the 2nd largest area of employment in the region, more connected, then obviously they do not give a F**k about the poor! 

 

Like I said before, let's retard further growth and accessibility because certain areas have not had any vibrancy for 50 years.

 

I just can't fathom how opponents think this will not have benefits for the surrounding communities.  The more UC grows, the more the surrounding areas benefit.

 

What, kind of like the more the clinic grows the better it is for Fairfax?  Oh wait... that hasn't worked out so well.

 

I never said we shouldn't better connect UC.  I am all for a version of this project similar to KJP's proposal which integrates the corridor into the neighborhood quite well... and quite against any proposal that just lays waste to the neighborhood simply to have a highway style road driven right through the middle of it.

I am glad to see the mayor be a little more proactive lately in his efforts to see some of these projects move forward. I don't think this is a perfect project, but I am fine with its intent as it is currently proposed. There needs to be a better connection to UC and this one is the most ready to go. I am also for anything that replaces some of the desolation that is there now. I believe this will have the same positive effect on spurring other developments in the area as the Euclid Corridor has.

No offense to anyone who lives there, but we cannot possibly lay waste to that neighborhood.  It's been done already.  Some of it goes back to when the place was built.  A new road would be hard pressed to tear it asunder any more than the freight railroads already have.  Forget the OCB entirely and it still needs several pedestrian bridges before it will really be functional.  I believe the mayor's neighborhood-specific plan addresses that issue.

 

This is where I'd like to see some of the "research park" development they're talking about for Euclid Avenue.  OCB seems like the shortest distance to that goal.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/opportunity_corridor_project_b.html#more

 

The 2¾-mile boulevard would run through Cleveland's Central, Kinsman and Fairfax neighborhoods, roughly following an old rail corridor.

 

 

hmm, the bittersweet irony.

 

 

Ahhhh but who cares about the triangle anyway, those people are poor and don't count. 

 

Ahh I love when this line gets pulled.  If one thinks it makes sense to make University Circle, the 2nd largest area of employment in the region, more connected, then obviously they do not give a F**k about the poor! 

 

Like I said before, let's retard further growth and accessibility because certain areas have not had any vibrancy for 50 years.

 

I just can't fathom how opponents think this will not have benefits for the surrounding communities.  The more UC grows, the more the surrounding areas benefit.

 

What, kind of like the more the clinic grows the better it is for Fairfax?  Oh wait... that hasn't worked out so well.

 

Hmmm.. I wonder why if the Clinic were such a negative asset to the Fairfax community, Dr. Cosgrove won the Stokes Community Vision Award on October 13, 2008 (http://pureblogneohio.blogspot.com/2008/10/fairfax-and-cleveland-clinic-community.html).

 

While the Clinic could give much more, it still gives over $27.6 million to the community (Community Health Center at Langston Hughes (Opening January 2009), Community Health Center – Fatima, Community Health Center – Women In Need (WIN) Clinic, Community Health Initiative (CHI) – Medical Students at Fairfax, AGAPE Program, Bread of Life – Food Pantry).

 

I see the same such community benefits for the areas surrounding UC the more it continues to grow.  I just believe it is foolish to kill the idea because the areas the corridor would cut through are downtrodden.  If you make the OC like Mayfield or Cedar, then you would have no point in doing the project.  It needs to get built quickly to take advantage of the pending money available from the Feds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

sigh...

 

I never said the clinic wasn't charitable.  But I don't even think it's debatable that the Clinic's success has not translated into good development in the fairfax neighborhood.  I mean with the exception of the Zremba development as soon as you get 5 feet off the Clinic campus, the neighborhood is decimated.

 

Furthermore, and I'm getting fairly tired of explaining this, as I have stated many times in this thread... I am not against this road.  I am against this road as currently planned.  As currently planned it's just an automobile zip line that tears right through what's left of the neighborhood.  Most of the planned "development" in it's current iteration is just low rise light warehousing type stuff.  Neat.  Exceptionally beautiful too.  Should really invigorate things.

 

Then take for example KJP's plan.

http://members.cox.net/kjprendergast/OpportunityCorridorRapidREV.pdf

Integrating road access and rail.  Removing current rapid stations from that god awful inhuman trench and putting stations in safer well lit at grade locations.  Encouraging development that may actually make a difference in rebuilding the community.  Why do we always have to settle for the crap ODOT puts in front of us?  "Well, we need access to UC, therefor let's just lay waste to this area and continue the freeway system... It's the best we can hope for."

 

Why can't we do things right for a change?  It is possible to improve access and help the neighborhood all at the same time...

I promise not to mention this again on this thread, but this discussion really reminds me once again just how much better the dual hub would have been than the HealthLine (which isn't to say I don't like the HealthLine).  If you have direct high capacity rail service from highly accessible west side park and ride lots to the Clinic, UH, Case and several other institutions (though not really the VA hospital), you can really say with a straight face that public transit is a viable alternative to building the OC.  Not so much with the HealthLine.

 

Why can't we do things right for a change?  It is possible to improve access and help the neighborhood all at the same time...

 

Not as long as people see it as their god-given-right to zip from the SW 'burbs to UC in only 20 mins.

 

 

McCleveland -- thanks for posting the link to KJP's plan.  I hope everyone takes the time to read it.  I think it's an excellent, forward-thinking idea, and I think that it needs to get into the hands of the players involved in the Blvd. planning.

Thanks! The ironic part is that ODOT was interested in my proposal. RTA wasn't.

There's no escaping lo-rise warehouse crud if you want modern industry.  Modern industry seems like a good option for this stretch, and unfortunately for some of the east shoreway corridor as well (the proposed new port area).  Because both areas have been so heavily industrial for so long, I don't see them as the best bets for significant new residential development.

 

Few cities have this much area available to develop (hideously sprawling) modern industry.  Ugly windowless boxes filled with employed people would be a big improvement for this part of Cleveland.  Those work best on a fairly fluid truck artery, so I would lean toward making this thing more of a highway and less of a Van Aken. 

 

I (really really) want a new transit corridor like KJP's, but I'd rather see it go up a street that already has semi-viable mixed use development, one that just needs the transit line to light a fire.  Somewhere like St. Clair, Superior, E105, Broadway, or W25th/Pearl, to say nothing of the west shore corridor proposal.  I would put all other infrastructure projects aside to get that one done.  With money so short, several areas deserve rail investment priority over the existing red line trench, and over a route that also sorta parallels the brand new healthline. 

This is a waste of time and money!

McCleveland -- thanks for posting the link to KJP's plan. I hope everyone takes the time to read it. I think it's an excellent, forward-thinking idea, and I think that it needs to get into the hands of the players involved in the Blvd. planning.

 

Ditto...I particularly enjoy the "Future NE Ohio Rail Line" shown on page 16.

There's no escaping lo-rise warehouse crud if you want modern industry. Modern industry seems like a good option for this stretch, and unfortunately for some of the east shoreway corridor as well (the proposed new port area). Because both areas have been so heavily industrial for so long, I don't see them as the best bets for significant new residential development.

 

I reluctantly agree with this, as long as the zoning can at least cut out the idiotic front yards that seem to be the norm in suburban industrial parks.  I just don't see any seismic shift coming to the city that is going to make demand for inner city living increase to the extent that this will be a viable area for new housing development, unless it is all heavily subsidized and coupled with the elimination of existing housing units (like the projects near downtown?).

 

So fine, let's provide a 2-lane truck route to connect underdeveloped parcels to 490 (or at least E55th).  You definitely don't need a $300M Opportunity Corridor if this is your goal.

Where's the guarantee that development will happen if this thing is built?  Is anyone banging on the doors of city hall saying that this is expressly where they'd like to be if the road happens? 

 

Developers never build a shop center, then lease it out after it's completed.  Why can't the same principle be applied to this project?

 

Re the above proposal.  Is the red line compatible with an at grade boulevard and stoplights?  It doesn't have any at grade crossings now.

It could be. Similar types of trains are operated on the Chicago El, which has grade crossings on the Ravenswood/Brown Line.

 

Or the RTA rail system could be retrofitted with a standard-type rail car in the coming years, such as a dual-floor light-rail car that could serve the existing high- and low-platform stations. Imagine running through trains from one of the Shaker lines to the airport, or if my Opportunity Corridor proposal was implemented, some rush hour trains could be run from Warrensville to Windermere, providing direct rail service from Van Aken and Shaker Square to University Circle and Little Italy. Oh well, RTA didn't bite....

 

Where's the guarantee that development will happen if this thing is built?  Is anyone banging on the doors of city hall saying that this is expressly where they'd like to be if the road happens? 

 

Developers never build a shop center, then lease it out after it's completed.  Why can't the same principle be applied to this project?

 

 

That is a problem, but maybe we can get most of the way there.  They could do a TIF to help with the road and get everything set up.  Then a public private partnership to put some of those ugly buildings up and offer them at a reduced rate.  They look cheap and they're mostly hollow anyway.  There's an industrial park that someone just put in out on 422 past Rt 44.  That's in the middle of nowhere, how did they get people in?  Encourage some of those places on Detroit to come over and redevelop that shoreway overlook with residential.

 

Even before any development happens, the road would be helping to connect UC directly to the near west side.  It will also help the far west side and beyond, but the places it connects will be the main beneficiaies.  That way instead of having linear growth we can have a triangle of downtown, the near west side, and university circle.  It includes all the hot spots and it brings the area south of Euclid into the mix.

This is a waste of time and money!

 

Agreed... the fact that so many powerful people are pushing this road and, yet, don't really know what form this "boulevard" will take -- it's becoming more and more patently clear, it is envisioned as a freeway or freeway-type road -- is all the more disturbing.

Slavic Village Development is pushing for bike lanes to be installed along the corridor, especially in their part of it.

Do we know for sure what City Hall and the powers that be envision for the OCB?

 

If the people on the board would be so kind, let me spout off what I think is the current situation, and what I hope will happen if it is built.  If anyone has facts that run counter to my ideas, it would help shape my opinion.

 

What I think is the current situation.

    -I-490 pretty much dead ends onto E. 55th, not close to any main arterial road

    -The path from the end of I-490 to University Circle, and the Heights beyond is cumbersome.

    -Between the end of I-490 and UC is a host of dead end streets and oddly aligned streets.  Many of them were constructed that way to serve factories that are no longer there.

    -There is a lot of vacant industrial land, aka brownfields along the path.

 

Here is what I think will happen if the OC is approved and begins construction (again, an opinion based on my reading of the subject)

    - An existing road will be chosen for a total reconstruction into a 5 lane Boulevard, much like Euclid Avenue was rebuilt (new sewers, pipes, electrial, gas...)

    -The road may be realigned, and pass through the brownfields.  This would require brownfield to be rehabilitated.  (thus fresh land for development)

    - Splinters of the new road would be constructed to connect to dead end streets and introduce more of a grid system to the area

  -Euclid Avenue at UC would reconfigured, and hopefully not be such a clusterf*ck.

 

So, that is how I read it.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

Thanks

 

 

Again we're building a rode to get people from A to Z with no stops.

 

I don't care what spin is put on this, this is not a good thing! 

 

 

I can't help but think that the public participation process would be completely different if this was an affluent or middle-class neighborhood. 

 

I think it's pretty interesting that Frank Jackson was staunchly against the Opportunity Corridor when he was councilman.  You can tell that pressures from the GCP and UC institutions have transformed his perspectives and priorities.

 

While Fairfax CDC is one of the strongest in the city, I've heard murmurs that residents have a distrust of the organization because they see it as under the control of the clinic.  Remember that just because the organization supports the project, it is not the neighborhood nor is it a representative of it.  My bet is that people from the community will fight the project.

Again we're building a rode to get people from A to Z with no stops.

 

I don't care what spin is put on this, this is not a good thing!

 

 

 

How in the hell is getting to your destination a bad thing?  Roads aren't built to stop on-- roads are for going!  Go park if you wanna park.  Why are so many people against the very concept of going?  The desire to go is the sole reason for the existence of roads, bicycles, trains, airplanes, all of it. 

 

These things aren't evil!  They have nothing to do with suburbs!  Cities have roads too, and that doesn't uncity-fy them!  Ancient Rome had big, clear roads, it was kind of a calling card for them... does that make Ancient Rome anti-urban somehow?  I don't get that at all.  That logic completely escapes me.  The concept that obstacles are to be avoided isn't "spin," it's common sense.   

Not saying Im for the OCB, but doesnt Fairfax CDC have a board made up of residents of the neighborhood like others (such as Ohio City) Or is it heavily filled with people from institutions such as the clinic?

 

While I agree that the public participation process would be different if the neighborhood were affluent or middle class, Im not sure what that says or does for the argument, since that is comparing a likely stable and healthy neighborhood where people are going to feel a stake to something that is pretty much ravaged and mostly un-occupied (is it to say that people dont care here (because they are not affluent or middle class)?, and if thats the case, why should people that are not residents care?) 

 

Just asking for opinions.... 

Again we're building a rode to get people from A to Z with no stops.

 

I don't care what spin is put on this, this is not a good thing! 

 

 

 

How in the hell is getting to your destination a bad thing?  Roads aren't built to stop on-- roads are for going!  Go park if you wanna park.  Why are so many people against the very concept of going?  The desire to go is the sole reason for the existence of roads, bicycles, trains, airplanes, all of it. 

 

These things aren't evil!  They have nothing to do with suburbs!  Cities have roads too, and that doesn't uncity-fy them!  Ancient Rome had big, clear roads, it was kind of a calling card for them... does that make Ancient Rome anti-urban somehow?  I don't get that at all.  That logic completely escapes me.  The concept that obstacles are to be avoided isn't "spin," it's common sense.   

 

You prove my point.  There is no interest in developing/redeveloping the neighborhood

 

This is an express way for those WHO WANT TO BYPASS THIS AREA OF THE CITY AS THEY WOULDN'T DREAM OF STEPPING INTO.

 

We don't need another highway.

So you're telling me this new road would somehow chase away all the downtown-UC traffic that currently goes through this neighborhood?  There isn't any!  It's like you're envisioning some bustling paradise this road will rip apart.  What are you talking about? 

 

Nobody goes to or through this area now.  There's no reason to, and too many roads there are dead-end.  The layout is hostile.  We even have a "Central" avenue that ends abruptly before it gets to anything. 

 

I think this road would substantially de-isolate Central/Kinsman/Fairfax.  It would also supply a reason for redeveloping the industry there, so that it becomes a destination in itself.  None of that is happening now.  The only thing happening there now is people bypass it, throwing all that crosstown traffic onto Chester. 

 

Right now, this area has no good road going through it-- and nobody goes there.  They don't pass through to get somewhere else, and they don't stop there to do business.  They avoid it entirely.  You think giving it a clear, inviting roadway with quality destinations on both ends will put less people there than there are now?  Once again, I must protest your reasoning.

MTS are you speculating that it will be a highway, or is this on the record somewhere?

MTS are you speculating that it will be a highway, or is this on the record somewhere?

 

I feel as though it will ''act" as a highway.

MTS are you speculating that it will be a highway, or is this on the record somewhere?

 

I feel as though it will ''act" as a highway.

 

It's been a very Monty Python couple of days in Cleveland.  All you keep saying is "no it isn't."  That's not an argument.  I would like to know what you actually think this project would hurt, and how it would manage to do so.  Open question. 

 

Granting you your highway point, and your bypass point because I think people already do, would you rather a road through these brownfields be the highway, or would you prefer that highway be Chester Avenue?  Because right now it is, and that volume of traffic isn't great for hi-density residential.  It isn't awful but it isn't great.  I think Chester has a lot more potential than, say, Quincy for new residential development because a) we've already seen renderings of a bunch, and b) Quincy & friends run through a largely industrial area while Chester doesn't. 

 

The more industrial area seems like the place you'd want to route your thru traffic thru.  That will stimulate commercial development there, which will be good for the neighborhoods nearby.  It might not be perfect for those immediately adjacent, but the area has always been industrial.  Think about all the freight trains that used to go through there.  Historically the attraction of these neighborhoods was being able to walk to factory jobs, and this project could get it back to that in a hurry.

 

I'm presenting an either-or choice because neither the red line nor the health line is ideal for every travel situation.  There needs to be one reletively unobstructed path for cars & trucks between downtown and UC, or synergy between the two will remain limited.

 

Think about Clifton in Cincinnati, Oakland in Pittsburgh, and OSU in Columbus.  Each of them has A LOT more activity than UC does, and each of them feels more connected with its respective downtown.  Why is this?  University Circle is about twice as far from its downtown as the other three are from theirs.  That is a gigantic factor.  We have to do a better job of bridging that gap.  The health line was a major step but we need a lot more.  That is a big stretch of major city to have between two points if you want them to feed each other. 

 

One day we'll have twice as much development between our two main hubs as those other nearby cities.  But when it's all broken up and empty like now, the distance becomes more of a problem than a benefit.   

Again we're building a rode to get people from A to Z with no stops.

 

I don't care what spin is put on this, this is not a good thing! 

 

 

 

How in the hell is getting to your destination a bad thing?  Roads aren't built to stop on-- roads are for going!  Go park if you wanna park.  Why are so many people against the very concept of going?  The desire to go is the sole reason for the existence of roads, bicycles, trains, airplanes, all of it. 

 

These things aren't evil!  They have nothing to do with suburbs!  Cities have roads too, and that doesn't uncity-fy them!  Ancient Rome had big, clear roads, it was kind of a calling card for them... does that make Ancient Rome anti-urban somehow?  I don't get that at all.  That logic completely escapes me.  The concept that obstacles are to be avoided isn't "spin," it's common sense.   

 

It would seem to follow that because the UC is an underutilized gem due to its connectivity, a freeway-esque OC, providing a quick and efficient way for more people to visit UC, makes the most sense.  It would very likely increase visitors, which would create more revenue, possibly more business, and possibly more jobs (all of these are very likely outcomes).  I've always thought these outcomes were pretty positive.

 

Yet on the other hand, there is a line of thinking that desires another Cedar/Carnegie/Euclid/Chester.  There is little evidence that putting a boulevard through the Forgotten Triangle would produce dividends, yet because it seems the politically correct thing to do, we should do it. 

 

If people are not willing to make the drive to UC because of how cumbersome it is to get to, is building a boulevard going to alleviate any of those very frustrations?  NOOOOOOOOOOO. 

 

Call it "spin" or whatever you like.  Spending tax payer money is like responsible gambling: go with your best bet, and do not let your emotions get in the way. 

 

 

for those interested, WCPN will have an update on this project in the next half hour

"Tolls" could be used for the project without it being a freeway, using the concept of "shadow tolls," in which a private partner agrees to finance and build the road in exchange for a fee for each vehicle which uses the road. The risk is on the private partner if traffic or development projections fall short. With or without traffic, the public gets a new road.

 

But of course some people are against the OC for other reasons.

A toll road is even worse and more exclusionary.  The people from the neighborhoods would have to live with the burdens of the Opportunity Corridor, but not benefit from actually using it.  And would businesses want to locate here if they'd have to pay tolls all of the time?

Wow, if it were a toll road I would be completely against this too.  That article also mentioned I-73 and I-74-- we'd better not build those before the 3C rail system.  I used to drive Columbus-Toledo a lot and a direct interstate certainly wouldn't suck, but the 23-15-75 method works well enough.  Extending I-74 sounds pretty pointless.  I'm not too familiar with that area of the state, but I know Portsmouth is no Toledo and it doesn't need 2 new interstates right now.

I would have to say this sounds like the dumbest suggestion yet regarding the OC. A toll road will do wonders for redeveloping the neighborhood.  :roll:

dumb...dumb...dumb.

 

Hell put a toll on the L-C and D-S bridges!

dumb...dumb...dumb.

 

Hell put a toll on the L-C and D-S bridges!

 

Don't give them any ideas.

Wow, a toll road.  Hands down the worst idea to surface in a long time.  :wtf:

 

"Tolls" could be used for the project without it being a freeway, using the concept of "shadow tolls," in which a private partner agrees to finance and build the road in exchange for a fee for each vehicle which uses the road. The risk is on the private partner if traffic or development projections fall short. With or without traffic, the public gets a new road.

 

But of course some people are against the OC for other reasons.

 

 

Also, I am very against private ownership of certain public goods, like roads.  Their goal would be to make a profit, which does not necessarily mean correct traffic issues, maintenance, etc.

This would seriously be the worst idea for this project ever. I agree with cd-cleveland. This would completely keep the surrounding residents away from it even more, and wouldn't provide any "opportunity" for them to use it. The whole argument for this project has been that it will provide a link to get to University Circle more easily. I certainly don't see how placing a toll on this stretch of road will do that.

 

Obviously, they're not saying this will definitely happen. But if it does, I hope every single one of those residents protest.

A toll so that I don't have to endure the Innerbelt Bridge and 60 blocks of Carnegie Avenue?  "I'd buy that for a dollar!"

 

Seriously, I wonder what a poll of Clinic, CWRU, and University Hospital commuters would say.(There just might be a movie line in this post.) 

Clarence Boddicker you are under arrest, and I am blown away they would even think of putting a toll road through the middle of Cleveland.  271, however, would make a great toll road.

Seriously, I wonder what a poll of Clinic, CWRU, and University Hospital commuters would say.(There just might be a movie line in this post.) 

 

They would say "Dead or alive you're coming with me!"

 

OK, that's enough, or I will rescind Directive 4.