like i said, have rem koolhaas design it.

 

You're avoiding my question. 

 

If the stations are redesigned, and look super fabulous (in my kind of super fabulous way), what good does it do for the station or redline??  They will just be a fabulous stations, with a star designers name attached, in the middle of a glorified road! 

 

Where exactly are the originating/departing riders coming from, when very few riders live within walking distance of the stations?

i was joking about a pretty design. so where are riders going to come from anyway?

 

i suppose there would have to be a lot of housing and all sorts of goodies planned too. i thought this was the whole point of this project; to get people doing things in these neighborhoods. i really can't imagine the construction of a boulevard making the area around those rapid stations any less desirable than they are already; i don't see how aiming a street grid around these stations could be any more detracting for development than whats there already.

 

if its done right it might entice the right kind of development.

 

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

i was joking about a pretty design. so where are riders going to come from anyway?

 

i suppose there would have to be a lot of housing and all sorts of goodies planned too. i thought this was the whole point of this project; to get people doing things in these neighborhoods. i really can't imagine the construction of a boulevard making the area around those rapid stations any less desirable than they are already; i don't see how aiming a street grid around these stations could be any more detracting for development than whats there already.

 

if its done right it might entice the right kind of development.

 

[/color]

You thought?  re read this thread.

 

what is the secret part of this thread that i'm missing?

 

seems like any advertisement of activity or interest in these places is plenty welcome. rome wasn't built in a day. but there were a lot of risky moves for caesar to turn the city of bricks into a city of marble.

 

whats to lose on this bet? do you really think old red will disappear because of this activity?!? what do we have to lose here? be specific.

 

 

 

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

 

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

 

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

whats a bodega?

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

 

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

 

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

The red line was "hastily built"? 

 

Downtown looks like a suburban strip mall???  Downtown Cleveland looks nor has the feel of a strip mall or we would have a gap, starbucks, cvs, key bank, intermixx and dunkin donuts on nearly every corner.

 

Where do you folks get this stuff from???

 

In the core of a downtown I wouldn't think there would be a laundry mat as the buildings marketed have in suite laundry or located else where in the building, in addition the price for rent in a downtown core for a laundry mat would be sky high.  Now on the edge of downtown (example, CSU going east, that would great.)

 

A bodega?  Constantino's is a oversized bodega.  A very popular one!

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

 

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

 

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

 

Yep.  I absolutely believe a developer will come around and build a skyscraper along this corridor.  In fact, they're lining up to build one... can't wait for the new street! :roll: 

 

Again, this is an area which the city will be able to sort of start from scratch with in regards to development.  I believe it was noted in this thread before that the land around the railroad right-of-way would have to be cleaned by ODOT, as a large majority of the land considered brownfield.  Meaning that a developer would be able to save roughly 5% on the total cost of development, especially if there's a market for new residential units (which I would only assume, I haven't done a market analysis of the corridor).  Residential units are required to be on cleaner land than the standards set for retail- there's less of a chance a child will play in the grass and eat dirt at a retail development, for example.  My question would be if ODOT would be required to clean the land to residential standards, because that makes a difference in the price of developing any sort of neighborhood around this "boulevard".  Even if not, the cost of building mixed-use residential units along the corridor would be decreased just because of the state's investment.  And that's just one potential use out of many which could prove to be productive.

 

If the land is to be cleaned by ODOT, why the hell just stick with suburban strip development?  It's the easiest development obviously for a developer if traffic counts are roughly 30,000 cars or more each way, along with a high number of cars at the intersections.  The income of the residents in the surrounding neighborhoods, however, would probably keep something like a La Bodega from opening along the strip.  Their income has to be taken into account, as the only time business at a strip mall type of development would see any outside dollars would be during the lunch hours, and possibly during the rush back home.  That limits the potential revenues for any strip retail.  Therefore, if any strip malls were to be built along the corridor, I would expect some of the uses in place at developments such as the strip at E. 105th and St. Clair, which might be comparable in regards to surrounding income.  Without looking at data, the income in Glenville might even be higher than the income of the area in discussion.  Again, I haven't done a market study, so I can only assume; but you won't find any La Bodegas or hardware stores there at the Glenville Towne Center.

 

Urban planning is all about making connections.  With this boulevard we're connecting the city's fastest growing employment area with a freeway (we already have a connection with MLK, but this is for the West Side's convenience).  A market could be in place for mixed-use residential and retail, office and retail for smaller businesses who want to be located near the Clinic, manufacturing for any biotech companies that want to be located both near the Circle and close to a freeway, industrial, etc.  And that's where zoning comes in, as the city will be able to plan what the best use should be in regards to development.  I'm hoping that the city zones for something which could help make the city more attractive to both potential residents and businesses, and not just zoning that caters to cars and retail.  We have enough of that as it is. 

 

...As for downtown being a strip mall, a) that's another topic, and b) I'm sure there will be many who would love that discussion.  :whip:

agree about the car business. so this is really supposed to be an interstate and not a street? bummer...

 

 

 

 

agree about the car business. so this is really supposed to be an interstate and not a street? bummer...

 

 

 

 

 

Haven't you read this thread?  Why do you think I'm opposed to this ridiculous plan  This money could be diverted to build rail under our streets.

OK guys, time for a chill pill and some fact-checking:

 

> The Red Line WAS hastily built. CTS looked for the cheapest, most easily built rapid transit line routing and selected the unfinished Van Swerigen rapid transit corridor through aging industrial areas.

 

> The Opportunity Corridor will be a boulevard with intersections. There was a proposal by ODOT for an interstate-type interchange at East 55th but neighborhood interests opposed it because it was anti-pedestrian and would reduce foot access to the new rapid transit station.

 

> The corridor, from East 55th to University Circle, is burdened with more than 40 EPA Superfund toxic cleanup sites left over from long-closed industries and warehouses. There is nowhere near enough to clean these sites. Road construction will help clean some properties by default.

 

> A primary development goal for this corridor is to construct warehousing and light industrial uses which have a lower brownfield cleanup threshold than housing. These types of uses also offer low-skilled jobs for residents in surrounding neighborhoods. The Orlando Baking Co. warehouse on Grand Avenue, between East 75th and 79th is a model for the type of development sought for the Opportunity Corridor.

at least the orlando warehouse is brick and has a sidewalk entrance... sigh.

 

i still wish these a-holes would consider moving the rapid lines to the center of the boulevard and eliminate that god awful trench and the extremely unwelcoming stations it produces.

You know I'm with you on that!!

so i looked through these pages again and i found what look like three different versions; one was clearly a freeway, one was a version invented by KJP (i liked it), and the last just looked like chester ave. i'm gonna guess, after meeting such resistance here, that chester ave. part 2 is the version they're going with.

 

is there a way to campaign to have roads removed? we need some billionaire lobbyist on our side. what happened to all those 19th century railroad tycoons?

 

also, i just heard a whole lot of money is going to the EPA to cleanup american's sacred brownfields. but i'm guessing this money will mostly go to places like atlanta... but maybe some more bucks for a cleanup here?

maybe they could fill the rapid trench with the goo that they rake out of the river. then the tracks would be level with humanity.

maybe they could fill the rapid trench with the goo that they rake out of the river. then the tracks would be level with humanity.

 

child boo!

 

is there a way to campaign to have roads removed? we need some billionaire lobbyist on our side. what happened to all those 19th century railroad tycoons?

 

 

They died, except that fella in Omaha.

 

BTW MTS, look over each of your messages in the last page on this forum. Each one consists of something like: "what??" "prove it!" "what are ya stupid or something?"

 

I know you spend a lot of time in New York, but try to have a normal conversation here.

i'm nominating KJP for mayor of cleveland. we'll get your plan built.

I did the next best thing. I gave a copy of my 2005 proposal to a friend in the mayor's office. Turns out they never knew anything about it. That's my fault for assuming I had already told them. A reason why my friend was interested is because there is criticism coming from the neighborhoods that this project doesn't do enough for them.

OK guys, time for a chill pill and some fact-checking:

 

> The Red Line WAS hastily built. CTS looked for the cheapest, most easily built rapid transit line routing and selected the unfinished Van Swerigen rapid transit corridor through aging industrial areas.

 

> The Opportunity Corridor will be a boulevard with intersections. There was a proposal by ODOT for an interstate-type interchange at East 55th but neighborhood interests opposed it because it was anti-pedestrian and would reduce foot access to the new rapid transit station.

 

> The corridor, from East 55th to University Circle, is burdened with more than 40 EPA Superfund toxic cleanup sites left over from long-closed industries and warehouses. There is nowhere near enough to clean these sites. Road construction will help clean some properties by default.

 

>

 

I think the KJP post sums up the the challenges and the goal of this project. As I have stated throughout this thread I believe this is a worthwhile project and in the end will benefit the city. The cold fact that we have a highway deadend in the middle of a major city is embarrassing. Of course this project can really be something special with the move of the rapid tracks as part of the roadway. Hopefully someone will see the light. If you go to the pdf you can submit a comment or suggestion, tell them about including the rapid tracks.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/OpportunityCorridor/Documents/OC_Handout_Crop.pdf

 

 

OK guys, time for a chill pill and some fact-checking:

 

> The Red Line WAS hastily built. CTS looked for the cheapest, most easily built rapid transit line routing and selected the unfinished Van Swerigen rapid transit corridor through aging industrial areas.

 

> The Opportunity Corridor will be a boulevard with intersections. There was a proposal by ODOT for an interstate-type interchange at East 55th but neighborhood interests opposed it because it was anti-pedestrian and would reduce foot access to the new rapid transit station.

 

> The corridor, from East 55th to University Circle, is burdened with more than 40 EPA Superfund toxic cleanup sites left over from long-closed industries and warehouses. There is nowhere near enough to clean these sites. Road construction will help clean some properties by default.

 

> A primary development goal for this corridor is to construct warehousing and light industrial uses which have a lower brownfield cleanup threshold than housing. These types of uses also offer low-skilled jobs for residents in surrounding neighborhoods. The Orlando Baking Co. warehouse on Grand Avenue, between East 75th and 79th is a model for the type of development sought for the Opportunity Corridor.

 

KJP- Thanks for the fact check!  This corridor having intersections is really important to how the surrounding areas can be developed in the future.  I have to check the thread to see what intersections will be created.

Not to quote myself, but to save you some time, there's this:

 

To my knowledge they ARE talking about a street with intersections.  They are routing it through an area, however, whose existing network is so hosed that the result is few intersections.  The Alt. 3 alignment abuts the railroad right-of-way and included intersections at every street it happens to encounter:  55th, Kinsman, 75th, 79th, Buckeye, Woodland, 89th, 93rd, Quincy.  Alternative 4 includes a reported 8 signalized intersections between 490 and University Circle.

 

Also see page 2 of the following PDF: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/OpportunityCorridor/Documents/OC_Handout_Crop.pdf

looks like chester to me.

Opportunity Corridor Community Meeting

Tuesday, January 26, 2010

5:30-7:30 p.m.

 

Judson Manor - The Ballroom

1890 E. 107th Street

Cleveland, OH 44106

 

The Opportunity Corridor is planned as a three mile boulevard that will stretch from I-490 at East 55th Street to East 105th Street and Cedar Avenue. This transportation and economic development project will help revive and redevelop large tracts of vacant and underutilized land in the City of Cleveland and will increase access to and create jobs in several inner city neighborhoods.

 

The purpose of this meeting is to present the project to the University Circle community. Presenters will discuss the goals of the project, review possible corridor routes and gather public input regarding proposed land uses being considered along the corridor. All comments received will be given careful consideration as the project progresses.

 

For further information contact Terri Hamilton Brown at the Greater Cleveland Partnership at (216) 592-2258 or [email protected].

 

Additional project information is available at:

www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/clevelandurbancoreprojects/opportunitycorridor

Shockingly the Cleveland Scene thinks this is the worst idea since the Medical Mart, or the Healthline, or E. 4th, or Gateway.....

 

OPPORTUNITY OR OPPORTUNISM?

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/opportunity-or-opportunism/Content?oid=1836287

 

I am going to rant about this article and scene in general in the media thread.

 

 

Holy crap that is a poorly written & researched article.  It does nothing to speak of the millions of dollars of reinvestment this could bring, the local jobs created by the construction, the increased property values, the environmental cleanup...  Instead it tries to portray the few residents as pawns being manipulated and the leaders who are fighting for this project as backstabbers allied with outsiders or suburbans...

 

 

How does the Cleveland Scene even consider itself a forum worth printing? 

Holy crap that is a poorly written & researched article. It does nothing to speak of the millions of dollars of reinvestment this could bring, the local jobs created by the construction, the increased property values, the environmental cleanup... Instead it tries to portray the few residents as pawns being manipulated and the leaders who are fighting for this project as backstabbers allied with outsiders or suburbans...

 

How does the Cleveland Scene even consider itself a forum worth printing?

 

Thank God for Scene on this issue.  I don't always agree with Scene and often have issues with Roldo's inflammatory rhetoric, but this article is dead on imho...  The so-called Opportunity Corridor is a fraudulent farce that business and elected leaders are attempting to front as some kind of savior to the community when, really, it's just it's going to be merely a freeway connector to allow West Side suburbanites zoom to Circle jobs w/o having to go through the "dangerous" city...  Businesses are not suddenly going to spring up along this freeway/road and the poor people, many who stand to lose their homes for this road, are the lowest per capita auto owners anyway, so how will this freeway/road help them?  The biggest obstacle to these folks, now, is the decreasing transit options with all the RTA cuts.  If businesses wanted to relocate in this area they could opt to do so (just as the soon-opening, gigantic Juvenile Justice center is about to do).

 

And Scene/Roldo are also correct that the PD is totally in the pockets of those pushing this project.  PD's cheerleading this farce has hardly been "objective reporting."

I usually agree with you clvlndr, but not on this one.  I think the city as a whole needs this logistical solution.  I also think it brings a lot more benefit to university circle and the near west side than it does to the suburbs.  People who work in UC will drive there because they have to.  This won't change that. 

 

But UC needs to be more accessible for its own sake.  Tourists from Columbus (and elsewhere to the south and west) ultimately reach UC the same way commuters from Westlake do.  Tourists from the east would probably also circle around to OC, rather than risk getting lost off another exit.

 

So if you're looking for inner-city benefit, you have to look beyond Fairfax.  This would also give the Heights areas much better access to downtown and to the near west side.  It will also reduce the auto-orientation of Carnegie and Chester, encouraging more urban forms of development along that corridor. 

 

EDIT: Earlier in the thread I had thought traffic on other E-W arteries would be unaffected by OC, as they connect with downtown while OC wouldn't.  But since then I realized most commuters probably take Chester/Carnegie east from the innerbelt anyway... even if you're coming up 77, the end of 490 is to be avoided.  So that adds another benefit in my view: a noticeable traffic reduction for Chester that may help get some hi-density residential built there.

^We have had 20 pages of this argument.  The choice is do we want to build a 35MPH boulevard with a grassy median, with potential for rapid transit either with the Red line or a new BRT, have environmental cleanup along the path, reconstruct the feeder roads through an area that is over 80% vacant, or do nothing.

 

Three Questions:  How does the PD profit from this road being built? 

                        How exactly will a 4-6 lane road with a median destroy entire neighborhoods?

                        Has a rebuilt Euclid Avenue done a good job attracting businesses?

Three Questions: How does the PD profit from this road being built? Not sure how this is relevant.

 

How exactly will a 4-6 lane road with a median destroy entire neighborhoods?  It won't.  This area needs change in the worst way.  The only people left are those who couldn't afford to get out.  Creating a new boulevard that is readily frequented by commuters during the week and others on the weekend trying to get to the museums, etc will only have positive effects.  Having this traffic will at the very least disrupt the crime and drive it elsewhere.  At the most, it will create redevelopment opportunities for housing & small business, especially after the environmental issues are addressed.

 

Has a rebuilt Euclid Avenue done a good job attracting businesses?  Too soon to tell.  Having the project reopen at the start of a major economic downturn hasn't been a very good indicator of anything.

 

Im finally hearing some sense on the OCB today (minus the Scene article and Clvlndr's observations of course). 

I'm uncomfortable taking the pro-road "anti-neighborhood" side of any issue.  But seriously.  That area is just plain trashed.  There are maybe 10-20 structures I'd keep in all of Fairfax... those that are mixed-use or multi-family.  Everything else should come down.

I have heard that Forest City is a major property holder in this area... I would have to guess that, yes, even Forest City can see the growth potential around University Circle.  If they actually do own large amounts of property in the vicinity of the corridor, I would hope that they develop it in some "fashion" according to zoning codes, of course.

 

Speaking of which, has there been any discussion in the city regarding the zoning of the land around the corridor?  This is, IMO the most important factor of connecting UC to this corridor.

"when, really, it's just it's going to be merely a freeway connector to allow West Side suburbanites zoom to Circle jobs w/o having to go through the "dangerous" city...

- Plenty of people would use this route to get to museums and other attractions of University Circle on the weekends.  If you go back and do some research, you'd find that ODOT originally mapped this area for a freeway back in the 50's & 60's because even then, before the real blight & abandonment set in, it was an obvious location for freeway transit.  Now that University Circle has grown so much and the Kinsman area has become the "forgotten triangle", it makes more sense than ever to target it for redevelopment.

 

"Businesses are not suddenly going to spring up along this freeway/road and the poor people..."

- maybe not overnight, but eventually I think it would.  Especially once the environmental cleanup is done.  Think of all the jobs that could be provided to local residents from the construction of the corridor alone...

 

 

"many who stand to lose their homes for this road, are the lowest per capita auto owners anyway, so how will this freeway/road help them?" 

- Buying these people out and relocating them to other areas with better police patrols, better schools, and better shopping options would be the best thing to happen to them.  There is zero chance of them moving otherwise since they would never be able to sell the home.  Read some chapters of "Shrinking Cities" when you have time.

 

"If businesses wanted to relocate in this area they could opt to do so (just as the soon-opening, gigantic Juvenile Justice center is about to do"

- Relocating major public facilities like the Justice Center to this area are a simple way of getting the most bang for tax payer dollars and cleaning up a blighted, contaminated area at the same time.  By the way, Cuyahoga Metro Housing Authority is relocating it's new campus headquarters to this area in 2011 as well.  Over 400 people will operate out of the new office at E. 79th & Kinsman.  How do you propose all these people get to work?  The surface streets will be overwhelmed at 7:30 & 5:30.  More options are necessary.  The Opportunity Corridor provides that option in the best manner.

 

 

Well said gottaplan.  As I believe 327 put it a while back, this neighborhood stopped being relevant long ago, and will likely never be again. 

It is too fragmented and scattered to do anybody any good and is a huge drain on city services. 

 

The city needs to be thinking in terms of how best to make current neighborhoods stronger and how to best utilize the land in places like this to be productive again some day.

 

Some people are still using the text book argument of why this would be bad, which most of us would be behind if it fell into that text book case, but it just doesnt.  It is just too far gone.   

I respect your opinion 327, and btw, my comment was not meant to take a shot at West Siders -- hell, you're right, some of the Heights crowd has been bitching about fast access to downtown (as in a freeway or similar roadway) since the death of the Clark Freeway 40 years ago... Punch is correct, for my opinions against this road, see pages above.  And as far as Scene, I must have missed the Med Mart/E. 4th comments, which sound stupid...

 

To the 3 Questions:

 

1.  Don't know, but I get uncomfortable when PD articles come off as cheerleading.  If they are columns or opinion pieces, like Steve Litt's, then OK, otherwise, they make me uncomfortable ... that even applies to issues that I AGREE with the PD, like the 3-C Amtrak line Obama's funding.

 

2. This isn't my main issue, because the bulk of the roadway appears slated for the wide right-of-way with abandoned tracks next to the RTA Red Line and NS line; its depressed, so it won't hit many houses, although there does appear to be some houses that are directly in the way of expansion at the end of the I-490 stub at E. 55th Street.  My MAIN gripe, like the Scene piece is, please stop selling this as SAVING these poor folks by saving this neighborhood.  The OC won't...

 

3.  I don't see the HL/Euclid rebuild as attracting businesses.  The main nodes of growth along Euclid -- CSU and the E.79/Clinic area, were growing BEFORE the Euclid rebuild.  CSU's plans to grow its neighborhood into a "college town" have been in the pipeline for over a decade, and the plan is parallel to what's happening with similar large urban state-run universities like Temple (Philly) and Wayne State (Detroit)... In fact, despite some small growth/rehab near E.55, Euclid in between these nodes looks bleaker and more vacant than I've seen it at any time during my lifetime.  Yes, the economic downturn has hurt all growth here, but HL + Euclid rebuild, which has actually greatly speed-ed up driving times down the corridor, don't seem compatible to the kind of high-density, TOD growth rail rapid transit (esp subways) + a traffic-calmed, narrower street (certainly unlike rebuilt Euclid) tends to attract ... so my answer is: no.

 

 

Good points clvlndr, especially #3.  I'm in the it's-too-early camp... the recession makes 2009 an invalid test.  And the healthline is nothing like what's being discussed for OC, so they really don't compare. 

 

What floors me is that the healthline is set up like a trolley system, one that is very likely to stimulate mixed-use and hi-density residential in the long term.  But they're approving public-sector and industrial stuff along Euclid which will chase away everything else, and which match very poorly with the TOD potential of a trolley-like bus line. 

 

Meanwhile those developments are all ideal for OC.  I say wait and put the mental hospital, tech center, and "transitional housing" along this new semi-industrial commuter boulevard.  If the hospital can't wait, build it somewhere that would be along any reasonable OC routing plan.

Excellent point 327.  That seems to be more the reason for this to get started sooner before more public and industrial entities decide to move alongside the EC..

I think the big thing that makes this project unique is the large scale environmental cleanup required.  That's why this area has been abandoned and void of any redevelopment.  It's also why the cost estimates are so high.  No new development will occur in the area until its been cleaned up and documented.  No banks will loan money for construction or development if the property has a history of heavy industry.  Otherwise they'd be opening themselves up to lawsuit-heaven.

I keep going back and forth on this.  What bugs me the most about it is the underperforming areas around University Circle.  I want to encourage more and more new employees in the UC area to live IN the UC area, not give them an easier commute from far-off-lands.

 

Also, this is a $375 million+ project.  Where is this money coming from isn't there a better way we could spend it?

To the detractors of the project.  You need not look further than the first paragraph:

 

"Opportunity fled Emma Barnes' Kinsman neighborhood decades ago, along with the white people who flew to the suburbs and the industry that closed up shop (but conveniently forgot to take its toxic waste). Kinsman earned the bleak tag of "Forgotten Triangle." Barnes, 79, has lived among the neglect all her life, but local government and big business want to assure her that prosperity is on the way."

 

This poor woman has lived in despair HER ENTIRE LIFE in that neighborhood.  And she's only 79.  But the Scene turns her into an example of piling on some poor folks.  When there's no where to go but up, are we really doing much damage?

 

All I have to say is:  at least it's not a wall-lined limited access highway.  Cleveland could do much worse. 

I think the big thing that makes this project unique is the large scale environmental cleanup required.  That's why this area has been abandoned and void of any redevelopment.  It's also why the cost estimates are so high.  No new development will occur in the area until its been cleaned up and documented.  No banks will loan money for construction or development if the property has a history of heavy industry.  Otherwise they'd be opening themselves up to lawsuit-heaven.

 

A side effect of the ultimate cost levied to society of poor or no regulation on polluters, or them exercising little if any social responsibility/accountability. So, in the future...we live and learn...and some may want to be a bit more selective on their 'de-regulation' agenda. Not all regulation is "evil!" Moreso, it is to have a private tyranny to do as it wishes with no accountability, under the honest and noble guise of good business. In the long run, few have gained from the outcome as described in 'gottaplan's' post. 

Also, this is a $375 million+ project. Where is this money coming from isn't there a better way we could spend it?

 

Kind of amazing, isn't it?  Obama awards a relatively small (considering project reach) $400M for Amtrak's Ohio 3-C rail line, and many are at least uncomfortable w/ the amount for start-up, 79 MPH max trains... Btw, I like the idea of the waste cleanup aspect.  I just wish it wouldn't take a roadway to accomplish it.

Apparently, the new TRAC project list has appeared on the ODOT web site.  It is dated 3/18/2010.  There has been a bit of a hiatus, while ODOT was retooling their criteria.  Opportunity Corridor is listed under "Tier 2: Existing Projects Advancing with Existing Funding."  The total funding is listed as $360M. The project ID is 77333, and it has a score of 49.  $10M is committed in 2010 for preliminary engineering.

Holy crap that is a poorly written & researched article.  It does nothing to speak of the millions of dollars of reinvestment this could bring, the local jobs created by the construction, the increased property values, the environmental cleanup...  Instead it tries to portray the few residents as pawns being manipulated and the leaders who are fighting for this project as backstabbers allied with outsiders or suburbans...

 

How does the Cleveland Scene even consider itself a forum worth printing? 

 

Thank God for Scene on this issue.  I don't always agree with Scene and often have issues with Roldo's inflammatory rhetoric, but this article is dead on imho...  The so-called Opportunity Corridor is a fraudulent farce that business and elected leaders are attempting to front as some kind of savior to the community when, really, it's just it's going to be merely a freeway connector to allow West Side suburbanites zoom to Circle jobs w/o having to go through the "dangerous" city...  Businesses are not suddenly going to spring up along this freeway/road and the poor people, many who stand to lose their homes for this road, are the lowest per capita auto owners anyway, so how will this freeway/road help them?  The biggest obstacle to these folks, now, is the decreasing transit options with all the RTA cuts.  If businesses wanted to relocate in this area they could opt to do so (just as the soon-opening, gigantic Juvenile Justice center is about to do).

 

And Scene/Roldo are also correct that the PD is totally in the pockets of those pushing this project.  PD's cheerleading this farce has hardly been "objective reporting."

 

Agreed!  I've been against this from the start.

To the detractors of the project.  You need not look further than the first paragraph:

 

"Opportunity fled Emma Barnes' Kinsman neighborhood decades ago, along with the white people who flew to the suburbs and the industry that closed up shop (but conveniently forgot to take its toxic waste). Kinsman earned the bleak tag of "Forgotten Triangle." Barnes, 79, has lived among the neglect all her life, but local government and big business want to assure her that prosperity is on the way."

 

This poor woman has lived in despair HER ENTIRE LIFE in that neighborhood.  And she's only 79.  But the Scene turns her into an example of piling on some poor folks.  When there's no where to go but up, are we really doing much damage?

 

All I have to say is:  at least it's not a wall-lined limited access highway.  Cleveland could do much worse. 

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All this is, is a bambi advertorial.  Smoke and mirrors son!

Thank God for Scene ... this article is dead on imho... The so-called Opportunity Corridor is a fraudulent farce that business and elected leaders are attempting to front as some kind of savior to the community when, really, it's just it's going to be merely a freeway connector to allow West Side suburbanites zoom to Circle jobs w/o having to go through the "dangerous" city...  

Says who?  Do you golf with Doctor Cosgrove and have inside information?

Let's see, pro's of the project:  Cleanup industrial contamination left over from decades ago, increase property values, create jobs, increase traffic to University Circle and institutions in the area, create new development along the corridor.

 

Cons: ?????  Some old,  dead broke people who've lived in the area forever are going to have to move out of their dilapidated houses that they cannot sell for $10k anyhow?

 

Sounds like a SCAM!!! Props to the SCENE for such amazing investigative journalism!!!  whatever

 

Cons: ?????   Some old, dead broke people who've lived in the area forever are going to have to move out of their dilapidated houses that they cannot sell for $10k anyhow?

 

Sounds like a SCAM!!! Props to the SCENE for such amazing investigative journalism!!!   whatever

 

Gee, that sounds like the same thing Albert Porter said to the folks who were in the way of the Willow Freeway (I-77) in the 1950s. They were pushed out and landed in Hough creating conditions so desperate that many of its residents didn't care anymore and rioted, burning 240 buildings, killing four people and injuring more than 30.

 

Now I grant you that nothing much is left in the Forgotten Triangle. But what kind of development are we going to put back there. Exclusionary stuff that's set back behind chain-link fences and big parking lots so only people with cars can reach these places? Or will the land use policy require accessible buildings fronted by mixed-use that are near the sidewalks on a low-speed, landscaped road with a bike path and attractive, comfortable and safe transit-waiting environments?

 

If ODOT is just going to build a road without paying attention to these kinds of details, then we really haven't learned much since Albert Porter fucked up this city.