ct to give inner-city residents the training necessary to have a competitive "opportunity" at these jobs? We can't just look at transportation projects anymore as a means to move more vehicles farther and faster. Now that would be dystopian.

 

Once upon a time, it was called the public schools.

 

You'd be surprised at the amount of training employers will provide, but there needs to be a base to work with.

OK, putting aside for a bit whether this new roadway will provide "opportunity" for the neighborhood, what about the maintenance cost:

 

But my biggest concern is that we are adding lane-miles when we should be eliminating them to match the financial resources available to pay for their maintenance. Federal Highway Administration data on adding urban roadway lanes shows this road will only exacerbate a widening disconnect between maintenance needs and available financial resources to meet them. We used to build more roads to induce more demand and more gas tax revenues. That model has broken down and no longer works. And raising the gas tax or adding other new taxes/fees/tolls will only increase the cost of driving that has risen 71 percent so far since 2000 (according to AAA, IRS, etc).....

 

“Construction costs for adding lanes in urban areas average $10–$15 million per lane mile. In general, the funding for this type of construction comes from taxes that drivers pay when buying gas for their vehicles. Overall, funds generated from gas taxes on an added lane during rush hours amount to only $60,000 a year (based on 10,000 vehicles per day during rush hours, paying fuel taxes amounting to about 2 cents per mile). This amount is grossly insufficient to pay for the lane addition.”

 

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop08039/cp_prim1_02.htm

 

We ought to be looking at both the cost of construction and maintenance costs and finding funding for the total cost before moving forward.

 

New Pro-Cooridor vid from GCP.

 

Also a refresh on the site plan.

New Pro-Cooridor vid from GCP.

 

Also a refresh on the site plan.

 

BS all I "hear" is this is going to help downtown and university circle.  Not one person or resident from the "study area" was included in this video.  Not one iota on transportation and why no rail is included.  This is a huge waste.

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

 

It depends on the time of day.  More time is saved when the traffic is heavy on 77 close to downtown.

Understood. I used to fight that traffic daily. But we're talking a mile more between 490/ 55 st exit to say the E. 30th exit. Again, is $350MM worth saving 5 minutes more of sitting in traffic?

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

I think I've change my mind about this project a couple dozen times now, but I'm guessing we could rebuild 55th all the way to Chester with an extra lane (or two) and then resurface Quincy, Cedar, and Chester between 55th and 105th and still come in well under $350M.

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

I think I've change my mind about this project a couple dozen times now, but I'm guessing we could rebuild 55th all the way to Chester with an extra lane (or two) and then resurface Quincy, Cedar, and Chester between 55th and 105th and still come in well under $350M.

 

Bingo, why couldn't the city, county and neighborhood get a real boost.  Wouldn't a ECP type investment be more worthwhile for the above streets instead of building a highway?

Understood. I used to fight that traffic daily. But we're talking a mile more between 490/ 55 st exit to say the E. 30th exit. Again, is $350MM worth saving 5 minutes more of sitting in traffic?

 

It also allows for construction to happen with less disruption.

 

Indeed, that is probably why they aren't tearing up the existing routes.

Wouldn't a ECP type investment be more worthwhile for the above streets instead of building a highway?

 

BRT is something to avoid going forward.  And the whole idea of this is to provide a direct route to UC from the west and south, not to reinforce the current zig-zag arrangement.  I will say that there seem to be an awful lot of lights in this most recent rendering.  Can't help but wonder if some of those are there for the sake of impeding traffic as a gesture toward the "roads/highways are intrinsically bad" lobby, or if maybe it's mission creep as a gesture toward the Central/Fairfax lobby, or both.  Either way, I think the project would be more effective with a few less lights.

I thought the whole point of this was to create development opportunities in the target area. That's what everyone keeps telling me. 'No no, it's not for communting purposes...it's for "development". Think of the children. Won't somebody please think of the children??'

 

You've reinforced my concern that this will be a zippy new 'fastroad' so that Johnny Westside doesn't feel like he's driving through the bad area on his way to UC. There will be no stopping along the way. I don't buy that we couldn't open up existing routes which might have utilized the existing infrastructure more productively.

For Johnny Westside I read "a large portion of the city and metro."  And don't forget Jimmy Eastside, who may live in or near UC and wish to visit points west.  The idea is to better connect the city as a whole, not to favor any one area, although the primary beneficiary is probably UC, which seems appropriate to me in the big picture.  A stronger and more accessible UC strengthens everything around it.

 

If the goal is to make people stop along the way between origin and destination, we can accomplish that by felling some trees.  Or by changing nothing at all, since the current route is already stop-and-go.  If the goal is to stimulate businesses in Central and Fairfax, I don't think roadbuilding is relevant.  That goal can and should be addressed in a more direct fashion.

I would love to see a breakdown of the project budget.  I'm utterly confused about how much, if any, of that $350 M is going to brownfield remediation and development site prep vs. road engineering, actual ROW acquisition, bridges, and roadway.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/trac/Lists/2013%20TRAC%20Application/Attachments/54/Cost%20Estimate%20PID%2077333%20Opportunity%20Corridor%20March%202013%20Cost%20Estimate.pdf

 

 

If I read it right, it is TBD

I thought the whole point of this was to create development opportunities in the target area. That's what everyone keeps telling me. 'No no, it's not for communting purposes...it's for "development". Think of the children. Won't somebody please think of the children??'

 

You've reinforced my concern that this will be a zippy new 'fastroad' so that Johnny Westside doesn't feel like he's driving through the bad area on his way to UC. There will be no stopping along the way. I don't buy that we couldn't open up existing routes which might have utilized the existing infrastructure more productively.

 

That would be extending 490 out to 105th street.  A big part of me thinks that's the best solution.

 

You can't "open up" a route without tearing it up for a significant period of time.

That would be extending 490 out to 105th street.  A big part of me thinks that's the best solution.

 

Me too, but that seems politically unfeasible.

That would be extending 490 out to 105th street.  A big part of me thinks that's the best solution.

 

Me too, but that seems politically unfeasible.

 

Agreed, and this is also a smart way to clean up a lot of brownfields that would otherwise fester.

Cleveland: Kasich delivering highway project $$$

 

Tom Beres

 

 

 

CLEVELAND -- On Monday, Governor John Kasich is expected to deliver some good news and significant dollars for multiple transportation projects in Greater Cleveland, starting with the Opportunity Corridor.

 

The $324 million project would link I-490 with University Circle by a 3.5-mile link through Cleveland's East Side neighborhoods.

 

 

 

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/307128/3/Cleveland-Kasich-delivering-highway-project-

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

 

AJ - When I see that map, I see all of the brownfields, abandoned industrial areas around the railroad tracks.  KJP and I disagree about this, but when Reagan deregulated trucking, manufactures saw highway access along main feeder roads as the most desirable spaces.  Nearly exclusively, that was greenfields with planned industrial parks.

 

There is a really good "opportunity" for the city to reopen these areas to industry, whether it is medical device, Utica Shale related equipment, or even automotive supplier companies.  By being next to rail, and a main street with a quick connection to I-77, I-71 and I-90, it could be a site selection committee's dream.  Also, manufacturing is still the best ticket to get under-educated people a decent wage. 

 

Another argument for this, if Cleveland isn't selected the money will go to some sprawl project elsewhere in the state.  For decades Cleveland area taxes helped fund those greenfield projects I spoke about earlier.  This time, some of that money is coming back inside the city limits, to benefit the city.

 

 

 

 

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

I think I've change my mind about this project a couple dozen times now, but I'm guessing we could rebuild 55th all the way to Chester with an extra lane (or two) and then resurface Quincy, Cedar, and Chester between 55th and 105th and still come in well under $350M.

 

Bingo, why couldn't the city, county and neighborhood get a real boost.  Wouldn't a ECP type investment be more worthwhile for the above streets instead of building a highway?

 

 

@MTS.  It is not a highway.  If you think it is a freeway please cite other 3.5 mile roads that has more than a dozen intersection, 9 traffic signals, a grassy median, is tree lined, has sidewalks, crosswalks and bikepaths, that you refer to as highways.

AJ - When I see that map, I see all of the brownfields, abandoned industrial areas around the railroad tracks.  KJP and I disagree about this, but when Reagan deregulated trucking, manufactures saw highway access along main feeder roads as the most desirable spaces.  Nearly exclusively, that was greenfields with planned industrial parks.

 

 

I disagree because the deregulation of the railroads occurred the same year and had an opposite effect -- the railroads were no longer required to serve anyone located along their lines who wanted service. Their certificates of public convenience and necessity became rumors, for all practical purposes. The railroads were losing a ton of money on all those shippers and sidings so they gave them lousy service to drive them away. They wanted to load up those shipments at centralized locations -- intermodal terminals where trucks that serve all those shippers along the railroads would converge and get loaded onto trains. So you may have truck pulling away from your loading dock, but that doesn't mean that shipment went Over The Road to its ultimate destination.

 

BTW, Reagan didn't deregulate trucking (Motor Carrier Act of 1980) anymore than he did the airlines (1978) or the railroads (Staggers Rail Act of 1980). Carter did. The only transportation sector he can claim to have deregulated was the intercity bus carriers via The Bus Regulatory Reform Act of 1982. It resulted in the disappearance of intercity buses throughout America and especially Ohio. But I digress....

 

The rail access is important to warehousing and other shippers along the Opportunity Corridor because that can be used to get better contracts with lower rates from truckers, even if the shipper has no intention of using rail. Some even get public funding to build sidings up their docks yet never uses it.

 

And while I'm not crazy about the Opportunity Corridor -- unless they design it with a median wide enough to someday reroute the Rapid down it -- it most surely is not a highway.

I would fully support as much "connectivity" between the new road and the existing red line stops, and perhaps new stops.

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

 

AJ - When I see that map, I see all of the brownfields, abandoned industrial areas around the railroad tracks.  KJP and I disagree about this, but when Reagan deregulated trucking, manufactures saw highway access along main feeder roads as the most desirable spaces.  Nearly exclusively, that was greenfields with planned industrial parks.

 

There is a really good "opportunity" for the city to reopen these areas to industry, whether it is medical device, Utica Shale related equipment, or even automotive supplier companies.  By being next to rail, and a main street with a quick connection to I-77, I-71 and I-90, it could be a site selection committee's dream.  Also, manufacturing is still the best ticket to get under-educated people a decent wage. 

 

Another argument for this, if Cleveland isn't selected the money will go to some sprawl project elsewhere in the state.  For decades Cleveland area taxes helped fund those greenfield projects I spoke about earlier.  This time, some of that money is coming back inside the city limits, to benefit the city.

 

 

 

 

I'm no traffic pattern expert, but in looking at that map, I have to wonder why existing routes couldn't have been used / beefed up a little (i.e. 55 to quincy). I'm sure there's a reason.

 

Also, I have to wonder, given the number of lights, etc. just exactly how much of a time save this truly is from going north on 77 and getting off at Carnegie. Is it worth $350MM?

I think I've change my mind about this project a couple dozen times now, but I'm guessing we could rebuild 55th all the way to Chester with an extra lane (or two) and then resurface Quincy, Cedar, and Chester between 55th and 105th and still come in well under $350M.

 

Bingo, why couldn't the city, county and neighborhood get a real boost.  Wouldn't a ECP type investment be more worthwhile for the above streets instead of building a highway?

 

 

@MTS.  It is not a highway.  If you think it is a freeway please cite other 3.5 mile roads that has more than a dozen intersection, 9 traffic signals, a grassy median, is tree lined, has sidewalks, crosswalks and bikepaths, that you refer to as highways.

Fine, then it's a parkway!  But I see no documentation that confirms we'll have all the above.  For all intense purposes, this is a highway with lipstick thrown on it!

I would fully support as much "connectivity" between the new road and the existing red line stops, and perhaps new stops.

 

They said NOTHING about new stops!  NOTHING.  That is why this is a glorified highway.

It's less of a highway than Lakeshore Blvd, or Clifton. 

 

They said NOTHING about new stops!  NOTHING.  That is why this is a glorified highway.

 

There is a planned grade separation at Kinsman and there'll be limited intersections compared to most main streets on the East Side, even Chester... sounds like a highway to me...

 

Oh and btw, RTA General Manager stated yesterday that the agency plans to run buses from the far West Side into University Circle over the OC -- as in BRT ... meaning that they would COMPETE with the existing, very useful and civic gem the Red Line.  To wit:

 

"Calabrese said he could also see adding bus service on the boulevard to connect workers on the far west side of the county to new jobs in University Circle’s medical and educational institutions."

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2013/07/rtas_joe_calabrese_transit_can.html

 

This is progressive?  Not like maybe busing those same West Side workers into existing West Side Red Line stations (ie Brookpark, Puritas or Triskett)  to the new and relocated U. Circle Red Line stations for jobs at existing (and new) employers for, oh say, $350+M LESS than building this highway boondoggle and burning more fuel, more employee hours, expanded bus maintenance, etc., etc. ... along a road which of course we're told is designed to establish TOD to help the poor Forgotten Triangle residents? ... really? 

 

... oh and while you're at it, piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

 

They said NOTHING about new stops!  NOTHING.  That is why this is a glorified highway.

 

There is a planned grade separation at Kinsman and there'll be limited intersections compared to most main streets on the East Side, even Chester... sounds like a highway to me...

 

Oh and btw, RTA General Manager stated yesterday that the agency plans to run buses from the far West Side into University Circle over the OC -- as in BRT ... meaning that they would COMPETE with the existing, very useful and civic gem the Red Line.  To wit:

 

"Calabrese said he could also see adding bus service on the boulevard to connect workers on the far west side of the county to new jobs in University Circle’s medical and educational institutions."

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2013/07/rtas_joe_calabrese_transit_can.html

 

This is progressive?  Not like maybe busing those same West Side workers into existing West Side Red Line stations (ie Brookpark, Puritas or Triskett)  to the new and relocated U. Circle Red Line stations for jobs at existing (and new) employers for, oh say, $350+M LESS than building this highway boondoggle and burning more fuel, more employee hours, expanded bus maintenance, etc., etc. ... along a road which of course we're told is designed to establish TOD to help the poor Forgotten Triangle residents? ... really? 

 

... oh and while you're at it, piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

 

Agreed. 

It's less of a highway than Lakeshore Blvd, or Clifton. 

Now you're trying to justify what "type" of highway this is.  This. Is. A. Highway!  Period.  This will not help the people in those neighborhoods, but only further divide them!

It's less of a highway than Lakeshore Blvd, or Clifton. 

Now you're trying to justify what "type" of highway this is.  This. Is. A. Highway!  Period.  This will not help the people in those neighborhoods, but only further divide them!

 

Im not sure you can call that a neighborhood.

 

Also saying the road will divide them is a lie. That area is terrible connected because of the railroads. The OC will provide a central boulevard connecting these sections by road, foot, and bike. This road will greatly improve connection in the "neighborhood"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's less of a highway than Lakeshore Blvd, or Clifton. 

Now you're trying to justify what "type" of highway this is.  This. Is. A. Highway!  Period.  This will not help the people in those neighborhoods, but only further divide them!

 

Im not sure you can call that a neighborhood.

Don't get cute.  Just because the area defined in the study is under served, not very populated and "poor" that does not mean the area is not a neighborhood.

 

Your answer and mentality is why I am against this.  Everyone else has an opinion except the people that live here and as I said earlier it will make the poor, poorer and divide the neighborhoods.  Didn't we learn anything from building the inner belt. It's taken 55 years for Tremont to come back and it still has a long way to go.  Why is OK to cram a highway into this area, but OK to tear up the shoreway?  The people in DS don't want a divider between them and the lake.  They want access to the lakefront.  So why build another highway?  To me this is a way to appease westsiders who will be "inconvenienced" because of the shoreway project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honey I can use pictures to manipulate the situation.

^ Thats not manipulating the situation. That is what is there. I showed a wide variety, from empty land, to houses, to trash, etc. That pretty much shows the condition of the area besides for the industrial waste zones further east.

 

If anything your words are manipulating the situation by calling it a highway.

 

 

 

 

Who lives here, Rumpelstiltskin??

It's less of a highway than Lakeshore Blvd, or Clifton. 

 

Next year at this time I hope your opinion of Clifton improves.

 

I agree with MTS, I consider a cross town high speed traffic arterial a highway.  I consider a limited access road a freeway or expressway. They are rarely ped/bike friendly unless done really well.  Even when lined with residential and retail it is a hostile environment meant to just move cars.  Clifton sucks and even with medians (which will help) I still don't think it will be a great street for peds or bikes (or elderly/handicapped folks to cross).  I consider Carnegie a cross-town highway.  I think of Ashland Ave or Western Ave here in Chicago...pretty much 50 mph traffic speeding up to the next stop light.  Don't dare cross where there is no traffic signal, and both have medians that were put in to calm them.  They both serve as cross-town highways because there is no freeway.

 

I can think of examples of highways in Ohio that have medians and cross streets/lights...Rt21 That splits from I77 in Fairlawn into Stark County, Parts of Rt30 across the state, Rt8 from Northfield to Cuyahoga falls, Rt 2 along the lake between Sandusky/Toledo.  Even though those are more rural, I don't think there is much of difference if its rural or urban, the design is a highway.

 

One of the few examples I can think of where this type of street in an urban setting was actually planned well and works is Paseo De Reforma in Mexico City, and the Champs-Elysees in Paris.  That's pretty much it off the top of my head.

^I agree with your assesment of this potential road being a highway, though different from a Freeway.

 

Just as another example, even Mayfield road, with sidewalks, street lights etc along most of its length in Cuyahoga County is considered a highway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_322

 

US Route 322 also includes Chester Avenue, which between East 40th street and Euclid Avenue will resemble the Opportunity Corridor.

^And the fact is, this so called Opportunity Corridor would never have materialized if it wasn't a direct feed to, and extension of, I-490, which IS a full fledged, limited-access freeway.  It has been a dream to extend a freeway into or near the Eastern suburbs since Albert S. Porter, the subway killer, tried to ram the Clark Freeway through the Shaker Lakes until community activists killed rose up enough stink that Gov. Jim Rhodes, a downstate Republican like Kasich, yanked funding...

 

The BIG difference is that Porter was dumb enough to try and run his highway through some homes of some of wealthiest, politically powerful individuals in Cuyahoga County.  The Opportunity Corridor folks are slick enough to want to ram it through the homes of the poorest... Yet folks (even on this board) want to showcase and exploit the poverty of these folks as if this highway is their sole salvation...

 

... never mind that, starting during Voinovich's mayoralty, and accelerating during Mike White's term and through to the current Jackson admin, there has been project after project where all-new, quality housing has risen on formerly rundown properties... does the names of Beacon Place, Lexington Village, Longwood and, most recently, Garden Valley strike a bell?  These all new townhouse developments range from federally subsidized housing to market-rate, tax-amnesty units... several of which have drawn national praise for Cleveland in whipping out blight and given often poor residents quality properties that they are proud of and take care of...

 

... So why, suddenly, do we need this HIGHWAY to recreate the progress we've been in the recent decades? 

 

ANSWER: Because Cleveland Clinic demands it and because too many West Siders want a quick access away from the "scary" poor areas containing low-income African Americans.  And now the RTA GM is telling us he wants to run BRT buses over it which will siphon riders from the parallel, heavy-rail Red Line on the cheap.  And just as with the absurd, history wrecking demands of Dan Gilbert with his casino, our obsequious pols bend over and,... well, you know the graphic metaphor. 

 

That's the way we roll here and Cleveland, and then we scratch our heads at why this community seems to be stuck in neutral.

This area never had a "main road" The OC will provide it

Roads are more than a conduit for personal transportation.  Raw goods and finished products also travel main roads and freeways.

I would wager the foreclosure crisis, and blight reduction strategies will claim/ have claimed 5 times as many houses in the area than construction of this road.

 

If opponents of this road are successful, the money will not go to mass transit.  It will likely go to another project downstate that is most likely an extension of sprawl. 

 

What is so bad about the Clinic?  If we didn't have our Medical center, how bad would the city be right now.  If they wanted a freeway, I would be against it.  But university circle and the city need to grow, and the new BOULEVARD is one way it can.

 

There isn't any reason the RTA could work with stakeholders to make areas around existing stations, near the new BOULEVARD, a TOD, like Eco Village on W. 65th.  If you are a new nurse, doctor or adminstrator at the Clinic or UH, wouldn't a new house near work, rapid transit, and dedicated bike paths be appealing?

 

Also, I grew up on the Euclid/Colinwood border.  I know how bad it is in pockets of the "lower" east side.  It never fails when something is going in in my neighborhoods, people from the Heights/Lakewood always find a way to call it a waste of money (see the Waterloo thread).  If this benefitted people in the Hts, or along the lake on the West side, there would be less arguments about it.

 

Of course there are always pros and cons to any public expenditure.  The pros of this project outweigh the cons.

 

If opponents of this road are successful, the money will not go to mass transit.  It will likely go to another project downstate that is most likely an extension of sprawl. 

 

I'm fine with that because mass transit would not benefit anyway.  And with Calabrese's plan to run buses along the OC in competition with the Red Line, transit will be setback.  What really pisses me off about this project, is that with all the rail mass transit expansion that could make sense for a growing downtown and University Circle, this road/highway is likely all we're going to get.

 

What is so bad about the Clinic?  If we didn't have our Medical center, how bad would the city be right now. 

 

This isn't about Clinic bashing, because I LOVE the Clinic and all the advantages it brings to this community locally and internationally.  I also love all that Dan Gilbert has done for downtown... That said, it doesn't mean that these powerful entities/people can't be bullies whose demands and projects actually hurt their community unwittingly.

 

There isn't any reason the RTA could work with stakeholders to make areas around existing stations, near the new BOULEVARD, a TOD, like Eco Village on W. 65th.  If you are a new nurse, doctor or adminstrator at the Clinic or UH, wouldn't a new house near work, rapid transit, and dedicated bike paths be appealing?

 

This would be great, but Cleveland (neither RTA nor local pols) has not until recently given any serious consideration to TOD... the Uptown/Intesa push as well as the proposed new W. 25/Ohio City Red Line station-mixed-use apartment complex and FEB are evidence that we finally are understanding and embracing TOD, which is refreshing... the OC is a giant step backwards as I see it because it is the antithesis of TOD... of course Joe Calabrese's RTA once had a display at the Tower City Rapid station touting Crocker Park as TOD ... That only exemplifies the lack of local understanding of what TOD is all about, and why people today are waywardly touting this OC highway as a TOD generator.

 

We may be arguing, and agreeing.  I fully support holding the stakeholders feet to the fire to make sure this development is everything its promised, and all it can be.

 

I not convinced that people who oppose this project are truly informed about what is being proposed. My hope is that the energy/reputation they are expending to block this project could be channeled into making a complete, green, mass transit, industrial, and pedestrian friendly thoroughfare.

I can think of examples of highways in Ohio that have medians and cross streets/lights...Rt21 That splits from I77 in Fairlawn into Stark County, Parts of Rt30 across the state, Rt8 from Northfield to Cuyahoga falls, Rt 2 along the lake between Sandusky/Toledo.  Even though those are more rural, I don't think there is much of difference if its rural or urban, the design is a highway.

 

For what it's worth, they've gotten rid of all the traffic lights and cross streets on Route 8 south of Highland Road in Macedonia.  It's a true freeway now.

This area never had a "main road" The OC will provide it

Roads are more than a conduit for personal transportation.  Raw goods and finished products also travel main roads and freeways.

I would wager the foreclosure crisis, and blight reduction strategies will claim/ have claimed 5 times as many houses in the area than construction of this road.

 

If opponents of this road are successful, the money will not go to mass transit.  It will likely go to another project downstate that is most likely an extension of sprawl. 

 

What is so bad about the Clinic?  If we didn't have our Medical center, how bad would the city be right now.  If they wanted a freeway, I would be against it.  But university circle and the city need to grow, and the new BOULEVARD is one way it can.

 

There isn't any reason the RTA could work with stakeholders to make areas around existing stations, near the new BOULEVARD, a TOD, like Eco Village on W. 65th.  If you are a new nurse, doctor or adminstrator at the Clinic or UH, wouldn't a new house near work, rapid transit, and dedicated bike paths be appealing?

 

Also, I grew up on the Euclid/Colinwood border.  I know how bad it is in pockets of the "lower" east side.  It never fails when something is going in in my neighborhoods, people from the Heights/Lakewood always find a way to call it a waste of money (see the Waterloo thread).  If this benefitted people in the Hts, or along the lake on the West side, there would be less arguments about it.

 

Of course there are always pros and cons to any public expenditure.  The pros of this project outweigh the cons.

 

All the streets in this area lead to East 105, so what is your point about a "main road".  That makes no sense!

 

Person transportation?  Really, you've just proved, this is for people who don't want to take public transportation or care about the neighborhood this OC runs thru.

 

How in the hell is a city to grow by adding more roadway?  Cars don't increase population.  Highways, expressways, parkways, Boulevards do not add more people or housing.  Cities are for people not for cars!

 

Instead of building this BS, use the money to fix up existing streets and street scape and RTA work with the city and state to build housing near the existing train stations.  Also, a campaign to educated Clevelanders - residents and businesses - about the benefits of using public transportation.

 

I live in CLEVELAND and this is a waste!

I'm like Keith in that on any given day, I feel differently about this. I'm all for improved access, and this could potentially be advantageous, but not by itself. As I said before, my preference is to just beef up the existing roadways and make the drive more streamlined, but if new roadway is the only way to do this, then I'd like to see those funds tied to some kind of economic development for this region (i.e. low interest loans for companies that would like to set up along this new roadway, training programs for local residents to make them more qualified for potential jobs, things of that nature).

 

You just build a road, and a road is what you get. If everyone is truly serious about this being an economic driver, then let's truly put some muscle behind that initiative and get as much bang out of the $350MM in bucks we're spending.

I'm like Keith in that on any given day, I feel differently about this. I'm all for improved access, and this certainly could potentially be advantageous, but not by itself. As I said before, my preference is to just beef up the existing roadways and make the drive more streamlined, but if new roadway is the only way to do this, then I'd like to see those funds tied to some kind of economic development for this region (i.e. low interest loans for companies that would like to set up along this new roadway, training programs for local residents to make them more qualified for potential jobs, things of that nature).

 

You just build a road, and a road is what you get. If everyone is truly serious about this being an economic driver, then let's truly put some muscle behind that initiative and get as much bang out of the $350MM in bucks we're spending.

 

Sounds like a plan.  I think the argument that this road would create Opportunity for adjacent residents is a stretch, so I'd like to see some component of the project just for them.  I believe the project's potential value is substantial, but the value is not keyed to proximity to the ROW, while some of the potential negative effects might be.

 

Honey I can use pictures to manipulate the situation.

 

I agree 100%

 

^ Thats not manipulating the situation. That is what is there. I showed a wide variety, from empty land, to houses, to trash, etc. That pretty much shows the condition of the area besides for the industrial waste zones further east.

 

If anything your words are manipulating the situation by calling it a highway.

 

No dude, using pictures without any background information is very open to manipulation, how about attaching a map so we know where the pictures, and pictures rarely give the fullest soy of an area. Using them just reinforces your prejudice.

 

These are the aerials of the path, taken from the ODOT website.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/OpportunityCorridor/Documents/2012%20Project%20Area%20Aerials.pdf

 

^If you don't like his pictures, why not supply your own to counterbalance.  If not on foot, you can use streetview.

These are the aerials of the path, taken from the ODOT website.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/OpportunityCorridor/Documents/2012%20Project%20Area%20Aerials.pdf

 

^If you don't like his pictures, why not supply your own to counterbalance.  If not on foot, you can use streetview.

 

And the way those pictures are assembled, the average person cannot tell where the road will go.  Hell, I'm somewhat familiar with the area but I have trouble visualizing the area.

 

Even those images don't tell the whole story of the area!  Out of the study area, have we heard from one resident? 

 

Punch, you appear to be for this project, please explain to me:

How, you understand it, how this road will help, those living in the neighborhoods it route goes through?

How will it improve the quality of life to the neighborhoods and adjacent areas impacted?

How will it help Cleveland as a whole OTHER THAN providing more road and alleged cross town access?

 

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but this box belongs to Pandora!

Many of those people do not have cars, KJP has the stats. With this road there will be a safer, more direct route to walk or bike to U.C. one of the largest employment centers in the state,  If industry comes in, along with the tax revenue it will bring to the city, it will also be an opportunity for residents to get jobs there. 

If housing springs up, people's property value will increase.

 

Ultimately, for me, this is about putting that vacant industrial land back to productive use.  That benefits the entire city of Cleveland and all of its residents. 

 

And the flip side is this: What has not building the road done for the community?  Is it thriving now?

Here is an aerial view then above the would be route of the OC. This is the fastest walking route from those houses to the Orlando Bakery Factory. The Opportunity Corridor wont divide this neighborhood.