Many of those people do not have cars, KJP has the stats. With this road there will be a safer, more direct route to walk or bike to U.C. one of the largest employment centers in the state,  If industry comes in, along with the tax revenue it will bring to the city, it will also be an opportunity for residents to get jobs there. 

If housing springs up, people's property value will increase.

 

Ultimately, for me, this is about putting that vacant industrial land back to productive use.  That benefits the entire city of Cleveland and all of its residents. 

 

And the flip side is this: What has not building the road done for the community?  Is it thriving now?

So if many of these people dont have cars, building another road is going to help them as opposed to investing in the current major avenues (Quincy, Carneigie, Cedar, Central and possibly Woodland) in a similar manner as the ECP.  Fixing roadways, utilities, street scape and having TOD overlay on the major streets?  As well is make the vacant residential parcels available for market rate housing.  You're probably saying, well buses will run on the roadway, which as noted is counter productive to the Red Line.

 

Key words, "if industry....", that is a big problem I have, there is no mention of business coming in, that would help employ current or future residents? 

 

There is no plan or guarantee, which mean this road is strictly built to transport people thru a low income area, yet claim that is will help, but there is no plan.  I'm calling BS!

 

Since there is no mention of business coming in, other than building this road, how is this road putting vacant industrial land to productive use?

 

The area is under utilized, but 350m used in this area would do a hell of a lot more than building a highway straight thru it! 

Here is an aerial view then above the would be route of the OC. This is the fastest walking route from those houses to the Orlando Bakery Factory. The Opportunity Corridor wont divide this neighborhood.

 

 

Why would they walk when they could take the train one stop?

^ $$$ or time. It could be faster to walk/bike than wait 20 minutes for the next train.

^ $$$

 

If they are working they probably have money. at least for transportation to work.

^ $$$

 

If they are working they probably have money. at least for transportation to work.

 

If money is tight why spend that money when you can easily walk 15 minutes or take a short 5 minute bike ride? More convenient and free.

Those ODOT helicopter photos are kinda cool, but they argue against the OC more than for it... How many Cleveland areas are served by multiple stations on multiple rail lines?  Answer: not many.  No one has still answered why money just can't be spent upgrading businesses and housing around existing streets and upgraded rail stations as opposed to reaching in our pockets for $350M for this 'magic highway.'

 

And it seems the pro-OC faction of UOers doesn't seem to want to comment about RTA's folly of wanting to run buses along the OC that will likely siphon riders away from our vastly improving heavy-rail Red Line.  ... I guess rail transit just isn't all that important to the extent some of us are cool with spending taxpayers' hard-earned $350M for a roadway that very well may help kill it while simultaneously contributing to Cleveland's urban sprawl and against its walk-ability... I'm sure Cincy, Milwaukee or KC would just love for us to relocate the Red Line to their cities...  :wtf:

"Faction"?  Quit it.  Seriously.  This is getting obnoxious.

If the $350MM isn't spent on a new road within the city if Cleveland, it will be spent on roads somewhere else in the state. 

 

 

No dude, using pictures without any background information is very open to manipulation, how about attaching a map so we know where the pictures, and pictures rarely give the fullest soy of an area. Using them just reinforces your prejudice.

 

Checking the area more or less randomly will quite easily come up with pictures like that.  It's certainly reflective of the area as a whole.

Those ODOT helicopter photos are kinda cool, but they argue against the OC more than for it... How many Cleveland areas are served by multiple stations on multiple rail lines?  Answer: not many.  No one has still answered why money just can't be spent upgrading businesses and housing around existing streets and upgraded rail stations as opposed to reaching in our pockets for $350M for this 'magic highway.'

 

And it seems the pro-OC faction of UOers doesn't seem to want to comment about RTA's folly of wanting to run buses along the OC that will likely siphon riders away from our vastly improving heavy-rail Red Line.  ... I guess rail transit just isn't all that important to the extent some of us are cool with spending taxpayers' hard-earned $350M for a roadway that very well may help kill it while simultaneously contributing to Cleveland's urban sprawl and against its walk-ability... I'm sure Cincy, Milwaukee or KC would just love for us to relocate the Red Line to their cities...  :wtf:

 

This is taxpayer money.  It's really not supposed to be used to "upgrade businesses and housing". 

 

Does the Euclid Avenue BRT "siphon" riders?  If that's the criteria for adding (or in this case rejecting) transit options, how can GCRTA legitimately be called rider-oriented?

 

As an aside, look on that satellite shot at the area south of Francis between E. 65th and E. 63rd.  That's where we lived when I was born.  Fifteen years ago, it was full of houses.  Now I've seen less green space in city parks.

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

Buses don't do that? 

 

There's an opportunity (yeah, I know...) here to run a loop bus between the 55th and 105th Red Line stops.  You could even phase out the 79th street Red Line stop, which doesn't get used much.

 

I'm guessing a big chunk of Red Line users get to it by car or bus at some point anyway.

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

You're in luck, there already is one.  And I agree with clvlndr to the extent that there's little sense in running buses on this when it parallels the Red Line.  It's not like there aren't other routes that need those buses.

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

Buses don't do that? 

 

There's an opportunity (yeah, I know...) here to run a loop bus between the 55th and 105th Red Line stops.  You could even phase out the 79th street Red Line stop, which doesn't get used much.

 

I'm guessing a big chunk of Red Line users get to it by car or bus at some point anyway.

Rail transport is much more faster and efficient than bus. I despise catching the bus places just because it takes 40+ minutes to get to my destination where it takes rail 10-20 minutes. Also I feel in my personal opinion that the streets have no reason to be widened and will end uo too wide so why not do what couldn't be done on Euclid and create a streetcar.

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

You're in luck, there already is one.  And I agree with clvlndr to the extent that there's little sense in running buses on this when it parallels the Red Line.  It's not like there aren't other routes that need those buses.

There is? What is it?

EDIT: Your talking about the existing rail arent you?..... -__-

 

Those ODOT helicopter photos are kinda cool, but they argue against the OC more than for it... How many Cleveland areas are served by multiple stations on multiple rail lines?  Answer: not many.  No one has still answered why money just can't be spent upgrading businesses and housing around existing streets and upgraded rail stations as opposed to reaching in our pockets for $350M for this 'magic highway.'

 

And it seems the pro-OC faction of UOers doesn't seem to want to comment about RTA's folly of wanting to run buses along the OC that will likely siphon riders away from our vastly improving heavy-rail Red Line.  ... I guess rail transit just isn't all that important to the extent some of us are cool with spending taxpayers' hard-earned $350M for a roadway that very well may help kill it while simultaneously contributing to Cleveland's urban sprawl and against its walk-ability... I'm sure Cincy, Milwaukee or KC would just love for us to relocate the Red Line to their cities...  :wtf:

I agree with the first paragraph, but I do think you're being a over dramatic with your second paragrapsh.

 

"Faction"?  Quit it.  Seriously.  This is getting obnoxious.

Quit it?  Why, that is how he feels and he right, I asked punch the same question twice and he skipped over it.  I agree, this magic bullet road, now with transportation, is a waste.

 

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

Why?  The Red Line is already in this area and the Shaker 79 street station is short walk away?  reinvestment in the current infrastructure is what should take place.

 

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

Buses don't do that? 

 

There's an opportunity (yeah, I know...) here to run a loop bus between the 55th and 105th Red Line stops.  You could even phase out the 79th street Red Line stop, which doesn't get used much.

 

I'm guessing a big chunk of Red Line users get to it by car or bus at some point anyway.

Run a loop bus?  Really, so again we bypass the neighborhoods that actually NEED public transportation.  Now you say phase out the 70 station.  Instead of doing that why not rebuild TOD developments? Use that 350m to invest in street scape, road bed and educating people in the area?

 

This road is the equivalent of Tower Citys birth.  Tower City helped kill off the small bit of retail on Euclid and we've never recovered.  This road will take people, homes, businesses of the streets and onto a road PURPOSELY designed and built to take people thru an area, without actually having to see it.

 

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

Buses don't do that? 

 

There's an opportunity (yeah, I know...) here to run a loop bus between the 55th and 105th Red Line stops.  You could even phase out the 79th street Red Line stop, which doesn't get used much.

 

I'm guessing a big chunk of Red Line users get to it by car or bus at some point anyway.

Rail transport is much more faster and efficient than bus. I despise catching the bus places just because it takes 40+ minutes to get to my destination where it takes rail 10-20 minutes. Also I feel in my personal opinion that the streets have no reason to be widened and will end uo too wide so why not do what couldn't be done on Euclid and create a streetcar.

Just curious, where in Cleveland does this happen?  Where does rail/bus run parallel?  I was under the impression that most of those routes (12/13) were eliminated.  Or are you speaking in general terms?

I would be more excited for this if this included a streer car or rail of some sorts along this line to transport the people who can't drive.

 

Buses don't do that? 

 

There's an opportunity (yeah, I know...) here to run a loop bus between the 55th and 105th Red Line stops.  You could even phase out the 79th street Red Line stop, which doesn't get used much.

 

I'm guessing a big chunk of Red Line users get to it by car or bus at some point anyway.

Rail transport is much more faster and efficient than bus. I despise catching the bus places just because it takes 40+ minutes to get to my destination where it takes rail 10-20 minutes. Also I feel in my personal opinion that the streets have no reason to be widened and will end uo too wide so why not do what couldn't be done on Euclid and create a streetcar.

Just curious, where in Cleveland does this happen?  Where does rail/bus run parallel?  I was under the impression that most of those routes (12/13) were eliminated.  Or are you speaking in general terms?

General terms im using my experience riding the Healthline from Windermere to downtown (40 minutes) compared to riding the red line from Windermere to downtown (17 minutes)

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

..., but I do think you're being a over dramatic with your second paragrapsh.

 

I don't thinks so MTS... Remember that PD article a couple years ago talking about RTA's plans for expanded BRT?  The PD depicted routes up Kinsman and Buckeye paralleling the Shaker Rapid, among others.  Jerry denied this was RTA's plan, but the PD didn't pull the info out of thin air.  Joe C has clearly made it clear that his dream for RTA expansion is all bus and not rail... that should be legit reason for concern.

 

"Faction"?  Quit it.  Seriously.  This is getting obnoxious.

 

Quit it?  Why, that is how he feels and he right, I asked punch the same question twice and he skipped over it.  I agree, this magic bullet road, now with transportation, is a waste.

 

Thanks MTS.

Here is an aerial view then above the would be route of the OC. This is the fastest walking route from those houses to the Orlando Bakery Factory. The Opportunity Corridor wont divide this neighborhood.

 

 

This got me thinking about the Sidaway Bridge and how much easier that walk/bike ride would be if it were reopened, which led me to this interesting blog post:

 

http://silverstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/returning-to-sidaway-bridge.html

I think some of you are forgetting the Red Line doesn't serve a large portion of our region. The OC will also benefit those to the south and the south near west. A park and ride can be established to UC by way of the opportunity corridor.

 

So again how is that competing with the Red Line? And what is soo great about people driving their car 20 minutes to a rapid station to take the train the rest of the way. Also funny sidenote, many on here hate suburbanites. But without them the Red Line would practically have no ridership. That's why the line sort of sucks because its main purpose is that of a park and ride. It will reach its ridership limit very soon once the parking lots fill up.

 

Also this money can't be spent on anything else and if not here, it will be spent elsewhere. Those arguing to spend it elsewhere were the same people making fun of Kasich and calling him dumb for trying to spend the 3C rail money on something else, resulting in us losing it.

 

And for those who don't like the pictures I posted, please prove how wonderful the residential neighborhood is and how great the commercial streets are instead of occusing me to have some secret agenda. And while your at it prove how it divides the neighborhood.

 

Personally I think this is a massive waste of money. But I'd rather have this money spent here than in Columbus.

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

 

Hell I'd be with you, besides for turning this into a race issue, if this was an actual neighborhood, and of diverting funds was possible. But i cant when 95% of parcels are vacant and its either the OC or nothing.

..., but I do think you're being a over dramatic with your second paragrapsh.

 

I don't thinks so MTS... Remember that PD article a couple years ago talking about RTA's plans for expanded BRT?  The PD depicted routes up Kinsman and Buckeye paralleling the Shaker Rapid, among others.  Jerry denied this was RTA's plan, but the PD didn't pull the info out of thin air.  Joe C has clearly made it clear that his dream for RTA expansion is all bus and not rail... that should be legit reason for concern.

 

"Faction"?  Quit it.  Seriously.  This is getting obnoxious.

 

Quit it?  Why, that is how he feels and he right, I asked punch the same question twice and he skipped over it.  I agree, this magic bullet road, now with transportation, is a waste.

 

Thanks MTS.

 

Kinsman is one thing, it wouldn't compete as the 14 and the 5 run on kinsman and Chagrin already.  Also, RTA discontinued the 12 and 13 (Buckeye and Woodland/Larchmere) so there is not competing service.  Since the Kinsman/Harvar/Broadway routes is so long maybe BRT is best for those routes, granted rail would be better on Broadway.

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

 

Hell I'd be with you, besides for turning this into a race issue, if this was an actual neighborhood, and of diverting funds was possible. But i cant when 95% of parcels are vacant and its either the OC or nothing.

It's not a race issue is a "have" vs "have nots" issue.  Another question asked, but never answered.  Has one person for the affected area spoke for this?

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

 

Hell I'd be with you, besides for turning this into a race issue, if this was an actual neighborhood, and of diverting funds was possible. But i cant when 95% of parcels are vacant and its either the OC or nothing.

It's not a race issue is a "have" vs "have nots" issue.  Another question asked, but never answered.  Has one person for the affected area spoke for this?

 

They've been searching for months but still haven't been able to find anyone who lives in the area  ;)

 

Hold on, I'll do some quick research.

 

Edit: I had to leave unexpectedly and using mobile is difficult so I'll answer the question tonight when I'm back in front of a computer.

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

 

Hell I'd be with you, besides for turning this into a race issue, if this was an actual neighborhood, and of diverting funds was possible. But i cant when 95% of parcels are vacant and its either the OC or nothing.

It's not a race issue is a "have" vs "have nots" issue.  Another question asked, but never answered.  Has one person for the affected area spoke for this?

 

They've been searching for months but still haven't been able to find anyone who lives in the area  ;)

 

Hold on, I'll do some quick research.

 

Edit: I had to leave unexpectedly and using mobile is difficult so I'll answer the question tonight when I'm back in front of a computer.

If there is so much opposition on this board about the corridor why is there so much political support (Kasich, Mayor Jackson) and support from the RTA?

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

NIMBY?  Are you serious?

 

This is more about making sure this area stays impoverish, because they had no voice or choice in the manner.  Are you really telling me that a concentrated effort to repair CURRENT roads, streetscapes and build new housing would make no difference to this area?

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

 

I totally agree, BuckeyeB!

If there is so much opposition on this board about the corridor why is there so much political support (Kasich, Mayor Jackson) and support from the RTA?

Because elected officials like posing for pictures in their suits with shiny shovels in their hands and poorly fitting hard hats on their heads so that in the next election they can claim credit for the project getting built.

 

Key words, "if industry....", that is a big problem I have, there is no mention of business coming in, that would help employ current or future residents? 

 

There is no plan or guarantee, which mean this road is strictly built to transport people thru a low income area, yet claim that is will help, but there is no plan.  I'm calling BS!

 

Since there is no mention of business coming in, other than building this road, how is this road putting vacant industrial land to productive use?

 

 

This same argument can be used against rail and other transit projects too.

Are you really telling me that a concentrated effort to repair CURRENT roads, streetscapes and build new housing would make no difference to this area?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, because the structural defects would remain.  "Streetscaping" is a cosmetic approach to a much deeper set of problems.  It will not solve poverty.  It's something I would recommend many steps down the line from where we are right now.  New housing would certainly help, but lack of housing is not what plagues this area.  This area needs economic activity. 

I think some of you are forgetting the Red Line doesn't serve a large portion of our region. The OC will also benefit those to the south and the south near west. A park and ride can be established to UC by way of the opportunity corridor.

 

So again how is that competing with the Red Line? And what is soo great about people driving their car 20 minutes to a rapid station to take the train the rest of the way. Also funny sidenote, many on here hate suburbanites. But without them the Red Line would practically have no ridership. That's why the line sort of sucks because its main purpose is that of a park and ride. It will reach its ridership limit very soon once the parking lots fill up.

 

It makes a difference because drivers/commuters would NOT have their cars at the destination end: University Circle, an area that is already compact, extremely well served by the Red Line, HL, UCI "greenie" buses and a number of RTA bus routes.  Even without the OC, cars are choking Univ. Circle, esp. during rush hour.  The OC is only going to compound the problem as it will encourage West Siders NOT to park and take the Red Line, but drive all the way into crowded University Circle.  Why does this make more sense (to the tune of $350M)?  Wouldn't it make more sense if these cars are parked in West Side Red Line lots while workers/visitors take the Red Line and walk to their destinations?

How about a park and ride near the new road, that comes with a refurbished red or blue/green station

How about a park and ride near the new road, that comes with a refurbished red or blue/green station

 

Redundant and adds to the waste!

Are you really telling me that a concentrated effort to repair CURRENT roads, streetscapes and build new housing would make no difference to this area?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, because the structural defects would remain.  "Streetscaping" is a cosmetic approach to a much deeper set of problems.  It will not solve poverty.  It's something I would recommend many steps down the line from where we are right now.  New housing would certainly help, but lack of housing is not what plagues this area.  This area needs economic activity. 

 

So I guess what I suggest didn't work in Arbor Village?  Because that entire neighborhood was rebuilt.  Why can't this work in Eastern Central and Fairfax??

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

 

This is where I disagree with you, 327. I don't see this road as a major regional need. I haven't heard the argument that there are people who aren't investing in UC, or working in UC, or going to UC, because they can't get there easily. In fact, I would say there is currently as high a level of investment in UC and awareness of the treasure UC is as there ever has been.

 

A regional need I do see is a catalyst for continued investment in Cleveland, particularly in an area that has not seen any in a great number of years. My concern remains that a simple road, particularly a road designed to expedite traffic to the freeway system, does nothing to aid that...by itself. Hence my request that either 1) we route the OC through existing roadways to open up the possiblity that investment in some of the neglected properties might occur, creating new business / employment opportunities, or 2) we tie the development of this new road to incentives to bring businesses in along that road. This doesn't just benefit the immediate neighborhood, it opens up a whole new area of the city for potential new investment.

 

But that's not going to happen magically with just the road (IMO). Just the road gives us just commuters speeding along, never even blinking an eye at the surroundings.

 

Do we know for a fact that the money can't be used for creating an opportunity corridor using existing roadways? I don't know, and I'm not sure where to look.

I think some of you are forgetting the Red Line doesn't serve a large portion of our region. The OC will also benefit those to the south and the south near west. A park and ride can be established to UC by way of the opportunity corridor.

 

So again how is that competing with the Red Line? And what is soo great about people driving their car 20 minutes to a rapid station to take the train the rest of the way. Also funny sidenote, many on here hate suburbanites. But without them the Red Line would practically have no ridership. That's why the line sort of sucks because its main purpose is that of a park and ride. It will reach its ridership limit very soon once the parking lots fill up.

 

It makes a difference because drivers/commuters would NOT have their cars at the destination end: University Circle, an area that is already compact, extremely well served by the Red Line, HL, UCI "greenie" buses and a number of RTA bus routes.  Even without the OC, cars are choking Univ. Circle, esp. during rush hour.  The OC is only going to compound the problem as it will encourage West Siders NOT to park and take the Red Line, but drive all the way into crowded University Circle.  Why does this make more sense (to the tune of $350M)?  Wouldn't it make more sense if these cars are parked in West Side Red Line lots while workers/visitors take the Red Line and walk to their destinations?

 

100% agree.  Also, the city and RTA should find money to fix the 79 street station and create a TOD overlay for the area.

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

 

This is where I disagree with you, 327. I don't see this road as a major regional need. I haven't heard the argument that there are people who aren't investing in UC, or working in UC, or going to UC, because they can't get there easily. In fact, I would say there is currently as high a level of investment in UC and awareness of the treasure UC is as there ever has been.

 

A regional need I do see is a catalyst for continued investment in Cleveland, particularly in an area that has not seen any in a great number of years. My concern remains that a simple road, particularly a road designed to expedite traffic to the freeway system, does nothing to aid that...by itself. Hence my request that either 1) we route the OC through existing roadways to open up the possiblity that investment in some of the neglected properties might occur, creating new business / employment opportunities, or 2) we tie the development of this new road to incentives to bring businesses in along that road. This doesn't just benefit the immediate neighborhood, it opens up a whole new area of the city for potential new investment.

 

But that's not going to happen magically with just the road (IMO). Just the road gives us just commuters speeding along, never even blinking an eye at the surroundings.

 

Do we know for a fact that the money can't be used for creating an opportunity corridor using existing roadways? I don't know, and I'm not sure where to look.

As CLVNDR already wrote, why is there a need to bring more cars and congestion to the area instead of using the existing bus, BRT and rail lines?

The Red Line is not convenient or even a viable option for a ton of people in the region who could benefit from the OC.

Personally, I'd rather the $300 million+ be invested in the neighborhood itself...the NEIGHBORHOOD. New housing, new parks, new sidewalks and bike trails, improved LOCAL streets and lights, landscaping and so on. Forget the "Opportunity Corridor." We are forgetting the PEOPLE who live there. There used to be phrase that was used when the Interstate Highway System was built though inner city neighborhoods: "White mens highways through black mens bedrooms." It more than applies here, since it will mostly save suburbanites a few minutes on their way to Cleveland Clinic.

 

AMEN!

 

Hell I'd be with you, besides for turning this into a race issue, if this was an actual neighborhood, and of diverting funds was possible. But i cant when 95% of parcels are vacant and its either the OC or nothing.

It's not a race issue is a "have" vs "have nots" issue.  Another question asked, but never answered.  Has one person for the affected area spoke for this?

 

It's both an issue of race and have-nots. Keep in mind that these are people who have probably been downtrodden for so long they are not likely to speak up for themselves. However, it IS odd that no one from NAACP or other urban coalitions have not spoken out, at least not that I am aware of. I hope they do.

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

NIMBY?  Are you serious?

 

This is more about making sure this area stays impoverish, because they had no voice or choice in the manner.  Are you really telling me that a concentrated effort to repair CURRENT roads, streetscapes and build new housing would make no difference to this area?

 

To repair a road, you have to largely take it out of service.  You'd choke off access to UC for a long time before it would improve.

The Red Line is not convenient or even a viable option for a ton of people in the region who could benefit from the OC.

Now you're speaking in general terms?  So people who live near the 79 street stations don't work in UC or downtown?  Who are these "ton" of people. Why seperate residents from all visitors and workers to UC, Downtown and beyond.  Just because someone may not disembark at 79 street, why should the station remain the only station on the eastside not to be rehabbed?  Again, poor people have no voice.  "They're poor, they don't need a nice station" blah, blah, blah

 

Also the same could be made for East 105, which is the closest station to CCF.  Why do people need a road to UC/CCF when the University Cedar station is being rehabed, East 105/Quincy is a short bus ride or walk to the Clinic.

 

Instead of building a road thru "nowhere" fix up Quincy as there are residents and businesses on the north end of Quincy like Karamu.  East 105 street can be fixed up and housing retail added and current bus service increased.  BRT on E. 105/Woodhill I would embrace as it's a north/west route.

 

Again, this road is a waste!

 

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

NIMBY?  Are you serious?

 

This is more about making sure this area stays impoverish, because they had no voice or choice in the manner.  Are you really telling me that a concentrated effort to repair CURRENT roads, streetscapes and build new housing would make no difference to this area?

 

To repair a road, you have to largely take it out of service.  You'd choke off access to UC for a long time before it would improve.

:wtf: This is the most ridiculous thing EVER written on urbanohio.  With all the avenues that lead to East 105 Street or Euclid in UC, how in the hell can access to UC be choked off?  Not to mention we have rail, bus and BRT access.  Access to UC chocked off?  How many people from the westside are driving on cedar, Central or Quincy to UC/CCF now?  I would go out on a limb to say most use Carnegie or Chester.  If they are coming from 490 I think they would drive to Carnegie.

The Red Line is not convenient or even a viable option for a ton of people in the region who could benefit from the OC.

Now you're speaking in general terms?  So people who live near the 79 street stations don't work in UC or downtown?  Who are these "ton" of people. Why seperate residents from all visitors and workers to UC, Downtown and beyond.  Just because someone may not disembark at 79 street, why should the station remain the only station on the eastside not to be rehabbed?  Again, poor people have no voice.  "They're poor, they don't need a nice station" blah, blah, blah

 

Also the same could be made for East 105, which is the closest station to CCF.  Why do people need a road to UC/CCF when the University Cedar station is being rehabed, East 105/Quincy is a short bus ride or walk to the Clinic.

 

Instead of building a road thru "nowhere" fix up Quincy as there are residents and businesses on the north end of Quincy like Karamu.  East 105 street can be fixed up and housing retail added and current bus service increased.  BRT on E. 105/Woodhill I would embrace as it's a north/west route.

 

Again, this road is a waste!

 

 

 

What are you talking about? I never even mentioned the East 79th station.  And I never said those people who live there don't work in UC! ??

 

What I did say is that telling people to take the red line makes no sense since it doesn't serve them. People who live in any of the cities to the south or the southwest don't have good access to the red line. People on here act as if the OC will only benefit those who live on the west side where the red line runs. That is not true.

To repair a road, you have to largely take it out of service.  You'd choke off access to UC for a long time before it would improve.

 

Eh? I see roads rebuilt and widened all the time with the same number of lanes kept open for the public.

The Red Line is not convenient or even a viable option for a ton of people in the region who could benefit from the OC.

 

Who are you talking about?  Because if you're talking about West Siders, they can park at a West Side Red Line stop and either ride straight through to the rebuilding UC-Cedar Glen Station or the soon-to-be relocated UC-Little Italy station.  To get to the Clinic, they can transfer to the Health Line at Tower City for a direct ride to CC's front door.  Where is the inconvenience?  There's no OC currently and many people are already using these transit options to get to CWRU, University Hospital, Uptown, Little Italy and many places in between... and, if you haven't noticed, University Circle is the hottest investment ticket in the region for multiunit housing, while UC rents are skyrocketing -- under EXISTING conditions. So where's crying need for the OC?... Are you say people can't use transit or are they just closed minded and lazy?

This sounds more and more like NIMBY every day.  We can't make city and regional planning decisions on a block by block basis.  That's what we've been doing and look where it's gotten us.  Connecting UC to the freeway network will benefit the region, the city, and the east side in particular.  It could also lead to more industrial development in an area that needs some, and where other development alternatives are tougher because of all the brownfields.         

 

New paving, landscaping, bike trails... none of that is going to help these neighborhoods the OC would pass through.  Not in any meaningful sense.  It will still be the same area with the same problems.  There is concentrated poverty, crime, abandonment, no retail and no employment base outside UC/CCF.  A new road isn't going to fix all that any more than a few bike paths will, but at least the road addresses a major regional need.  This notion that every neighborhood has to get theirs is a big part of what's holding us back as a city.  The best thing for Central and Fairfax right now, IMO, would be to take University Circle to the next level. 

 

This is where I disagree with you, 327. I don't see this road as a major regional need. I haven't heard the argument that there are people who aren't investing in UC, or working in UC, or going to UC, because they can't get there easily. In fact, I would say there is currently as high a level of investment in UC and awareness of the treasure UC is as there ever has been.

 

A regional need I do see is a catalyst for continued investment in Cleveland, particularly in an area that has not seen any in a great number of years. My concern remains that a simple road, particularly a road designed to expedite traffic to the freeway system, does nothing to aid that...by itself. Hence my request that either 1) we route the OC through existing roadways to open up the possiblity that investment in some of the neglected properties might occur, creating new business / employment opportunities, or 2) we tie the development of this new road to incentives to bring businesses in along that road. This doesn't just benefit the immediate neighborhood, it opens up a whole new area of the city for potential new investment.

 

But that's not going to happen magically with just the road (IMO). Just the road gives us just commuters speeding along, never even blinking an eye at the surroundings.

 

Do we know for a fact that the money can't be used for creating an opportunity corridor using existing roadways? I don't know, and I'm not sure where to look.

As CLVNDR already wrote, why is there a need to bring more cars and congestion to the area instead of using the existing bus, BRT and rail lines?

 

Ok, so now this is where I disagree with you, MTS (and why I'm still on the fence with regard to this project). The fact is that the bus and rail lines are not driving any new investment into this area. If we're just speaking to moving people, I agree that we have sufficient infrastructure. But I am not against promoting imrovements that make driving more desirable through this area. More transportation options are better than less.

 

And as others have argued, a large infrastructure project like this does have the potential (again, IMO, and IME) to spur like private investment. If the state / local govts are willing to put this money in place, then it encourages other people to come in and see what all the fuss is about. But I would hope that would enhance the existing built environment, not cause further neglect as the new investment follows this new route.