July 5, 200717 yr 1. iPerbole The hype surrounding any product Apple unveils. Claims that the iPhone will change the world are all part of the iPerbole surrounding the cultish company.
July 5, 200717 yr Who cares if people are a little obsessive about a certain company. You see this with car companies, retail companies, etc... Right now, Apple is getting the hype and in a few months another company will come along and capture the media's attention. We live in a capitalistic society and this is one of the side effects. Personally I am a big Mac fan but the iPhone doesn't interest me that much. I am more interested in leaving Sprint in January when my contract is up though so I can have a GSM phone that works in Europe. I am tired of owning a CDMA phone that is worthless when I travel overseas.
July 5, 200717 yr did anyone hear about T-Mobile's new dealie? wi-fi cell phone service! http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/05/technology/circuits/05pogue.html?ex=1341288000&en=3963cc8a21e51f90&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
July 8, 200717 yr Apple 8GB iPhone components 'cost $220' By Tony Smith 6th July 2007 09:53 GMT Apple's 4GB iPhone costs $200 in components to make. The 8GB model's parts total just $20 more. So claims US market watcher and device stripper-down Portelligent. Of course, Portelligent's numbers - relayed by BusinessWeek - only cover the parts, not the cost off putting them together, shipping the finished product, marketing and, crucially, the cost of the software that makes the iPhone sing. But it shows Apple is in a good position to make money on the device. Whether you accept the more conservative sales estimates or the most bullish figures, there's no doubt Apple has sold a fair few iPhones since the device went on sale almost a week ago. Clearly, the high price of the handset is not putting buyers off to the extent that some observers anticipated it would. Portelligent's analysis follows its own disassembly of Apple's device, just one of many that surfaced in the days following the iPhone's debut. According to the breakdown, the iPhone's touchscreen, said to be made by Germany's Banda, is the most expensive component, coming in at approximately $60 a pop. While the handset is understood to be powered by a Samsung-made ARM chip, a peek a the firmware apparantly reveals the CPU to contain an integrated PowerVR MBX graphics chip. Samsung licensed the MBX design from developer Imagination Technologies a few years back. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/07/06/iphone_part_prices/
July 9, 200717 yr Boing Boing: http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/09/openmoko_linuxbased_.html OpenMoko: Linux-based $300 open smartphone The OpenMoko is a $300, Linux-based open smartphone. Unlike the iPhone, it doesn't come locked to any provider (and certainly not to the crooks at AT&T), it doesn't come with DRM, and it allows you to install any third party app you like, even if Steve Jobs worries that it might spoil your experience. It's still in "developer preview," but this might just be my next phone. The Neo 1973 boasts the following hardware specifications * 2.8" VGA TFT color display * Touchscreen, usable with stylus or fingers * 266MHz Samsung System on a Chip (SOC) * USB 1.1, switchable between Client and Host (unpowered) * Integrated AGPS * 2.5G GSM – quad band, voice, CSD, GPRS * Bluetooth 2.0 * Micro SD slot * High Quality audio codec http://www.openmoko.com/index.html
July 10, 200717 yr 1. iPerbole The hype surrounding any product Apple unveils. Epic. A friend of mine on another forum is reasonably high up in Apple. He got me a deal on my niece's Nano (pink) last Christmas, which earned me MFU status for awhile. I'm still going to have fun with this. :-D I don't see a difference between my Treo 650 and the iPhone that's worth the $400 price differential.
July 10, 200717 yr 1973 was a crappy year ;) 1976 was a better year. i was going to say the same thing. Don't give your product a number, that is in the past.
July 10, 200717 yr 1973 was a crappy year ;) 1976 was a better year. i was going to say the same thing. Don't give your product a number, that is in the past. Worked for WD 40
July 10, 200717 yr 1973 was a crappy year ;) 1976 was a better year. i was going to say the same thing. Don't give your product a number, that is in the past. Worked for WD 40 you know what I meant, give them a number resembling a historical year in most of our recent mind's history.
July 10, 200717 yr Apparently, the first mobile phone was introduced in 1973, so it's an homage to that. But it doesn't make for the best product name.
July 10, 200717 yr If the name is the greatest of its problems, then that's fine with me. It's a cool phone, from a cool company, with way better features.
July 10, 200717 yr Actually, in my opinion ... the best cell-phone on the market currently is the Nokia e90 Communicator (based on UI, features, and specs): http://europe.nokia.com/A4346040 Video: http://europe.nokia.com/A4344289
July 11, 200717 yr mmmmm But will it blend ? http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone
July 18, 200717 yr Well the authority has now spoken on the issue... http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
July 18, 200717 yr LOL! Maddox exposes yet another overhyped product's BS. When will people wake up and realize they're paying for marketing? Unless the iPhone has one hell of a lithium battery I don't want my mp3 player to be the same device as my cell phone. and the features aren't very innovative anyway. I bought a creative labs mp3 player for much less than an ipod and it had a built in FM radio that you could record songs from, a voice recorder, and it allows you to download any kind mp3 without converting the file! No BS.
July 23, 200717 yr NYTimes: July 23, 2007 IPhone Flaw Lets Hackers Take Over, Security Firm Says By JOHN SCHWARTZ A team of computer security consultants say they have found a flaw in Apple’s wildly popular iPhone that allows them to take control of the device. The researchers, working for Independent Security Evaluators, a company that tests its clients’ computer security by hacking it, said that they could take control of iPhones through a WiFi connection or by tricking users into going to a Web site that contains malicious code. The hack, the first reported, allowed them to tap the wealth of personal information the phones contain. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/technology/23iphone.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=business&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin
July 26, 200717 yr iPhone Can Now Serve Web Pages, Run Python, Open Source Apps http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/breaking/iphone-can-now-serve-web-pages-run-python-open-source-apps-282139.php
July 26, 200717 yr Wow, I wasn't expecting anything like to happen until sometime around christmas. That was really fast.
August 29, 200717 yr Apparently that girl from the first video is a blogger...primarily video blogger. She is probably the hottest blogger of all time.
August 30, 200717 yr ^I saw her interviewed on the news in Columbus; maybe she's from there. What she failed to mention is that she sends 30 something thousand text messages on a monthly basis. It makes sense that they send you a hardcopy of text message transactions which take up an obnoxious number of pages, but many people need them as evidence in court or perhaps to retrieve important information that was sent or recieved but deleted. But yes, she is hot. Dumb as a rock, but hot.
August 30, 200717 yr LOL! Maddox exposes yet another overhyped product's BS. When will people wake up and realize they're paying for marketing? Unless the iPhone has one hell of a lithium battery I don't want my mp3 player to be the same device as my cell phone. and the features aren't very innovative anyway. I bought a creative labs mp3 player for much less than an ipod and it had a built in FM radio that you could record songs from, a voice recorder, and it allows you to download any kind mp3 without converting the file! No BS. You sound like a Zune kind of guy. :evil:
August 30, 200717 yr The girl has an interview with her on YouTube as well (too lazy to post it right now). I think she said she was from Pittsburgh, PA.
August 30, 200717 yr I still don't understand how someone can send and recieve so many text messages. Must be all the environmentalist guys that think they have a chance with her. LOL! Maddox exposes yet another overhyped product's BS. When will people wake up and realize they're paying for marketing? Unless the iPhone has one hell of a lithium battery I don't want my mp3 player to be the same device as my cell phone. and the features aren't very innovative anyway. I bought a creative labs mp3 player for much less than an ipod and it had a built in FM radio that you could record songs from, a voice recorder, and it allows you to download any kind mp3 without converting the file! No BS. You sound like a Zune kind of guy. :evil: No, I used to have a great Creative Labs mp3 player though, before I lost it. It had a voice recorder (which came in handy for early morning lectures) as well as an am/fm band that you could record in mp3 format. It had 5 gigs and I paid roughly 180 for it. I don't like to pay for "marketing", hence my bottled water rants.
September 4, 200717 yr Business 2.0: Unlocked iPhones Go On Sale Tomorrow The first independently verified product that allows Apple (AAPL) iPhones to run on networks other than AT&T's (T) is scheduled to go on sale today -- but not to existing iPhone customers. The pricing and terms of sale were made public in an e-mail from iPhoneSimFree.com that was sent to registered bulk buyers on Sunday and published that evening by Engadget. Sales start at $1,800 for 50 licenses; 5,000 can be had for $125,000. A redacted version of the e-mail is pasted below the fold. The plan is for the software is to be distributed only by iPhone resellers -- companies that buy the cell phones from Apple, modify them before they have been activated with AT&T, and then sell them to customers who want to use the iPhone on GSM networks overseas or on another GSM network in the U.S. (e.g. T-Mobile). Prices for the modified cell phones have not been set. People who are already using iPhones on AT&T's network could, in theory, pay to have their phones unlocked, but they would still be obligated to AT&T for the rest their 2-year contract. This distribution strategy was devised with advice of lawyers and seems designed to avoid -- or at least off-load -- the legal problems associated with unlocking a cellphone for money. An exemption to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act allows individuals to unlock their own phones, but does not necessarily protect companies that sell the same service to others. iPhoneSimFree has arranged things so that it won't be unlocking any iPhones directly; that transaction is carried out by the reseller, who would presumably take on any legal risk. Resellers will also have to deal with customers should future iPhone software updates from Apple interfere with the modified phones. iPhoneSimFree.com is the registered website of a core group of six anonymous software developers who broke the codes that locked the iPhone to AT&T's network. In demonstrations to Engadget and CNN, iPhones modified with iPhoneSimFree's software seemed to have all their functions intact except for Visual Voicemail and Apple's streamlined version of YouTube. iPhoneSimFree's e-mail is pasted below, courtesy of Engadget. From: Orders iPhoneSimFree.com Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 8:42 PM To: [redacted] Subject: iPhone unlocking - WE ARE NOW ACCEPTING ORDERS Thank you for contacting us. We are now ready to take orders. Iphonesimfree is the only pure software solution available for iphone unlocking. Easy to market, easy to use as indicated by several respected independent reviews such as: CNN: <http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/09/01/apple.iphone/index.html> Engadget: <http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/24/iphone-unlocked-atandt-loses-iphone-exclusivity-august-24-2007/> HOW DOES IT WORK? The reseller or his/her customer must install on the iphone our software, available by mail or through direct download from our site. This is a standard .app file and once installed on the iphone it will show up as a springboard icon on the main screen. The reseller must log into our back office and enter the required data specific to that iphone (his license credit will be substracted). Once done, the reseller or the customer must run the .app, which will communicate via the iphone wifi to our server. If the iphone has been registered, the software will proceed to unlock the iphone. It is that easy! In the unlikely case of any problem happening, we have a 24/7 hotline to assist our resellers. WHAT IS THE PRICING STRUCTURE? The minimum number of licenses you can order is 50 pieces. Minimum quantity and pricing are not negotiable. 50 licenses: $36/each 100 licenses: $34/each 250 licenses: $32/each 500 licenses: $30/each 1000 licenses: $28/each 2500 licenses: $27/each 5000 licenses: $25/each IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: WHAT GUARANTEES DO WE HAVE AGAINST FUTURE UPDATES? We CANNOT guarantee that this software will work after any future updates for the iphone. It does currently work on all firmware versions, up to and including, 1.02. We will naturally try to provide our resellers an updated version of our software for each firmware update, it is in our interest, but we do NOT guarantee that we will be able to do so. WE ARE A TEAM: Iphonesimfree.com is a wholesale only company. Although we could, we do not and will not sell directly to end users, because we want to work together with our valuable resellers as a team and not interfere in their business. HOW DO I PLACE AN ORDER: We are now taking orders. The delivery date is Tuesday, 4th of September. If you want to purchase a bulk of licenses please reply to this email with: - Number of licenses you want to purchase - Company name and address (or Name if you are not a company) - Name of the contact - Telephone number (at least one) You will shortly receive a proforma invoice with all the details on how to complete your order. Payment is by bank transfer only. THANK YOU, WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ORDER. Best regards, Iphonesimfree.com sales team.
September 5, 200717 yr Interesting this comes out today. Reuters: Apple slashes iPhone price Wed Sep 5, 2007 3:11 PM ET By Scott Hillis SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Apple Inc on Wednesday said the company was cutting the price of its iPhone and was on track to sell one million phones before the end of September. "We want to make the iPhone even more affordable" Jobs said at a product event, announcing that the price of the model with 8 gigabytes of storage was cut to $399 from $599. Jobs also unveiled an iPod with a touch screen that can browse the Internet wirelessly, fighting to maintain the digital media lead at a time when the company faces renewed attacks from rivals. Jobs, who also showed off an iPod nano with a video screen, said the company plans to refresh its entire line of music players. In addition, Apple's iTunes Web music store will begin selling songs over wireless connections, he said. Shares dropped about 2 percent as Jobs continued to introduce new products at an event in San Francisco. "Buy the anticipation and sell the reality. I guess investors were anticipating something more positive from Apple," said Paul Foster, options strategist at Web information site theflyonthewall.com in Chicago. The new touch-screen iPod will have many of the features of Apple's hit iPhone, including a touch screen, the ability to connect to the Internet wirelessly using Wi-Fi technology, and a mini Web browser. "We've built in Wi-Fi and we've made it usable," Jobs said, in what could be seen as a dig at Microsoft Corp's Zune music player, which beat the iPod to market with Wi-Fi but has not enjoyed the iPod's popularity. Apple will also update its iTunes online music store to let customers turn songs into ringtones for the iPhone and to allow customers to buy songs while connected wirelessly. Apple shares were down to $141.26 in midday trading on Nasdaq. (Reporting by Scott Hillis; additional reporting by Doris Frankel in Chicago)
November 3, 200717 yr Google phone, mobile OS, or absolutely nothing due on Monday Posted Nov 2nd 2007 11:18PM by Joshua Topolsky Look, we know how you feel -- rumor mongering over the Google Phone (or OS) and its supposed appearance (in a multitude of forms, with an avalanche of partners) has reached the tipping point where it goes from exciting to annoying. That said, when the Wall Street Journal (amongst others) mentions a date or a place, you tend to pay attention. The stock-market rag is now reporting that the infamous GPhone will be making its official appearance on Monday. On the flip side, some say the story is that Google-partner Android will deliver news of an SDK for a new mobile OS -- a "complete software stack" based on Linux. Of course, we're not going to be placing any bets on said activity (nor should you), because with the way things have been playing out thus far, it seems pretty unwise to make wagers -- unless they're on the fact that no one really knows right now. So, if by Monday night you're sobbing uncontrollably because the obviously-life-changing device / software never made a showing, don't say we didn't warn you. http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/02/google-phone-mobile-os-or-absolutely-nothing-due-on-monday/ It seems that anything Google touches turns to gold, I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with their cell phone. T-Mobile, please pick it up!!!
January 26, 200817 yr Those of you that have the Iphone, now that you've had it for a while, how do you like it? What don't you like about it? What features would you like added?
January 27, 200817 yr I still really like it, and it still feels like reaching into the future. I'd say it's perhaps the best electronic doohickey I've ever had. I'm also encouraged that Apple has released updates that have only made it better, especially the 1.1.3 update — the find location feature does a good job approaching the functionality of GPS, and webclips are very handy. I'd love to see a good implementation of copy and paste, and some changes to email to make it a bit better, like a multipane view. One thing that drives me nuts is the inabiity to create to-dos on the phone. Seems obvious and I can't figure out why it's not there. The developer SDK is released next month, so I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of that.
January 27, 200817 yr I have verizon not at and t (sry won't switch) but my LG Voyager is the bomb; and the battery? I charge it every two days; my other cell phones up to now were normal ones and each time I got a new one the graphic changes made the batteries die faster; not this one! I have friends with the iPHONE who say the batteries work well on that one too. And I thought I was the hottest blogger damn! LOL
March 5, 200817 yr Well, yesterday after holding out for the Sony Ericsson x1 and Android, I finally broke down and bought the 16GB iPhone, will plans of dumping my iPod and consolidating my devices ... I had it unlocked within 10 minutes and then the joy started pouring on ... I've got to say that this phone is the best phone I have ever used and seen period! The UI is very user-friendly, and not to mention the best mobile phone browser out there (well, Opera Mini 4 is close!) ... The bad part is ... TMO is launching their 3G this summer and it's supposed to be the best 3G network out there, so I guess I won't have it long considering Apple will more than likely launch the 3G iPhone before then (talk about milking the market) ... Question: iPhone users ... what are the best apps out there, what do you find most useful? Thanks!
March 5, 200817 yr Well, yesterday after holding out for the Sony Ericsson x1 and Android, I finally broke down and bought the 16GB iPhone, will plans of dumping my iPod and consolidating my devices ... I had it unlocked within 10 minutes and then the joy started pouring on ... I've got to say that this phone is the best phone I have ever used and seen period! The UI is very user-friendly, and not to mention the best mobile phone browser out there (well, Opera Mini 4 is close!) ... The bad part is ... TMO is launching their 3G this summer and it's supposed to be the best 3G network out there, so I guess I won't have it long considering Apple will more than likely launch the 3G iPhone before then (talk about milking the market) ... Question: iPhone users ... what are the best apps out there, what do you find most useful? Thanks! I gave mine to my nephew. He loves it, but then again, he's 15, so he has no clue as to how it works for a person who would like to use it for business purposes.
March 5, 200817 yr The iPhone is the sexiest phone ever. The fact that it's so expensive and that you can only officially get it through AT&T is a massive dealbreaker to me. Otherwise, I want it sooo badly. But I'm a major Mac Head.
March 5, 200817 yr I gave mine to my nephew. He loves it, but then again, he's 15, so he has no clue as to how it works for a person who would like to use it for business purposes. I have a family member and a friend who both were early adopters and got the I-phone when it came out. Both have switched back to alternatives as they have reported spotty cell coverage with AT&T. One went back to a Blackberry (also like the keyboard better on the Blackberry), the other just a standard phone he had previously (I think a Razr). I'm holding out for my company to just buy me a blackberry. I'm not spending any more money on exotic phones.
March 5, 200817 yr The iphone is amazing. The best thing about it is when you're typing on a forum like this and the phone is moved to the side. The keyboard is then extended and while it's not the same length asa regular size keyboard (obviously), it's still a neat experience and you can easily type 40/50 words am minute with minimal mistakes. I've had my iphone for 2 weeks now and absolutely love it. When on a wifi connection somewhere, it's really a lot of fun and a joy to play with. It's also a very attractive phone cosmetically and not too bulky at all. It's only frozen up on me once so far and there haven't been any hardware or softward issues thus far. The sound and connection quality is generally pretty good too i.e. its phone features are actually pretty decent, though there are obviously dead spots. While the good far outweighs the bad, I think I'll just rattle a few improvements that need to be made. The battery gets drained way too quickly, but that's also a symptom of my continual use. The Edge network can be frustratingly slow, but what can you do? A lack of a video camera and flash photography is, however, inexcusable, as both are common features on most cell phones. In fact, the lack of flash photography does bug me some. It would also be nice for the phone to have flash, quicktime, etc but that would only make a difference on a wifi connection. I don't know how compatible this will be with google android - maybe that will improve things? Overall, a 9 out of 10 and a hell of a first generation phone. I am very happy with this purchase and have yet to have buyer's remorse.
March 5, 200817 yr we'll I got mine when they sent the media the phones, I wasn't paying for that! :roll: :roll: :roll: I usually get all the cool toys :-P :-P However, my blackberry is corporate standard, worldwide (at times I need to log into one to seven different company networks) and barely use that thing. as its to hard to type on for me. big fingers + little buttons = lots of typos. :whip: My nephew thinks the ipod is the worlds great invention, but then so does the majority of his generation. He had the nerve to say, "what did I ever do before this" as if he was 55 years old. Now he's lobbying, rather sucking up to, my mother to buy him a new laptop. Last week he did mention that his service is occasionally spotty. He said he was at my house and had no wireless service, walked toward SS and got a signal. He says he doesn't always get a signal inside my parents house either, although that could be the paint or just because its an old house.
March 5, 200817 yr I've had the iPhone for a few months, and I like almost everything about it except: You can't shoot video The speaker for music or speakerphone is really, really weak It has bluetooth, but you can't use that to connect to the computer, you must have the cable Every once in a while it flakes out and I have to reboot, though I have found that just turning the thing off every few days lessens the frequency of it going nuts on me All that said, I was playing with my buddy's voyager last week and I thought it sucked. The touch screen was terrible compared to the iPhone, and the resolution was pretty bad. Plus I hate verizon, so I am biased against their service. I haven't unlocked the phone, I am just going along with the updates. Once the SDK comes out this thing will be even more incredible.
March 5, 200817 yr I have played around with an iPhone quite a bit and own a Voyager. My thoughts: The iPhone has a better "feel" about the UI, in typical Mac fashion. There is nothing wrong with the Voyager's touch screen, it's just that the software on the iPhone uses it to its advantage more. The tactile feedback (small vibration) when you touch the Voyager's screen is great. With the sound off, it gives GREAT feedback as to when you touch the screen, similar to an actual button press. The web browser on the iPhone is better and scrolls more smoothly. The LG does offer some nice rendering alternatives for when you just don't need the full HTML page. However, in full HTML page mode, the browser can be fairly clunky, although still adequate. The Voyager's full keyboard on the inside blows away the iPhone's horrendous on-screen keyboard input method. This reason alone ensures that I would never trade in my Voyager for an iPhone even if they both worked on the same provider. Verizon's broadband service is far superior to the slow AT&T network that the iPhone works with. Using Google Maps on the iPhone is quite frustratingly slow. VZ Navigator is much more user-friendly, responsive, and GPS-integrated than Google Maps on the iPhone. Email on the iPhone is better than the Mobile Email app on the Voyager. The iPhone works with WiFi, the Voyager doesn't. All in all, they both have advantages and disadvantages, but after about a month of use, I have to say that I use the keyboard enough to make it a feature I couldn't do without (at least not if the alternative is the iPhone's input method).
March 6, 200817 yr The iPhone is the sexiest phone ever. The fact that it's so expensive and that you can only officially get it through AT&T is a massive dealbreaker to me. Otherwise, I want it sooo badly. But I'm a major Mac Head. I'm using it on T-Mobile + I have excellent coverage. Almost never a dropped call.
March 6, 200817 yr Every once in a while it flakes out and I have to reboot, though I have found that just turning the thing off every few days lessens the frequency of it going nuts on me I've had the same experience; quite understandable in the first few months but the fact that it stills happens really bothers me. That and the rumor that the SDK isn't really going to open it up to third-party apps, only "Apple approved" ones. I really hope that's not the case since I bought mine on good faith that they were moving to open it up (I'm not interested in jailbreaking).
March 6, 200817 yr I have heard that apps for sale on itunes will have to go through apple, but free apps will not be controlled.
March 6, 200817 yr I have played around with an iPhone quite a bit and own a Voyager. My thoughts: The iPhone has a better "feel" about the UI, in typical Mac fashion. There is nothing wrong with the Voyager's touch screen, it's just that the software on the iPhone uses it to its advantage more. The tactile feedback (small vibration) when you touch the Voyager's screen is great. With the sound off, it gives GREAT feedback as to when you touch the screen, similar to an actual button press. The web browser on the iPhone is better and scrolls more smoothly. The LG does offer some nice rendering alternatives for when you just don't need the full HTML page. However, in full HTML page mode, the browser can be fairly clunky, although still adequate. The Voyager's full keyboard on the inside blows away the iPhone's horrendous on-screen keyboard input method. This reason alone ensures that I would never trade in my Voyager for an iPhone even if they both worked on the same provider. Verizon's broadband service is far superior to the slow AT&T network that the iPhone works with. Using Google Maps on the iPhone is quite frustratingly slow. VZ Navigator is much more user-friendly, responsive, and GPS-integrated than Google Maps on the iPhone. Email on the iPhone is better than the Mobile Email app on the Voyager. The iPhone works with WiFi, the Voyager doesn't. All in all, they both have advantages and disadvantages, but after about a month of use, I have to say that I use the keyboard enough to make it a feature I couldn't do without (at least not if the alternative is the iPhone's input method). As far as the keyboard issue, I can type much faster now with the iphone keyboard, because I don't have to be exact with what button I hit. The dictionary is smart enough, that 99 times out of 100 it picks the right word and I just keep typing. Lack of GPS is a downfall...
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