I completely agree with Mr. Anderson, you have corporate citizens in some communities that do enough to just make things OK, and then you have corporate citizens in other communities that have decided that OK is not enough, they really want to take there communities to the next level. This includes not just supporting the arts, museums, local charities, (this is standard practice across the country) but actually working to create a better built environment, a better downtown, spin-off companies that create jobs and actively working to assists in cultivating an entrepreneur spirit in high tech growth areas in their community. Place like Columbus (Nationwide, Ohio State with their downtown/arena developments and research facilities), Charlotte (Bank of American and Wachovia and research parks) and yes, Indy with Lilly and Wellpoint and the IU/Purdue Research parks (right along the canal). A great city and a great downtown are not just about populations, its about the built environment, business, cultural and social environments that make up that community. Right now Cincy and its corporate citizens are a long ways from cultivating these pieces of the puzzle that are required for communities that wish to successed on a global scale in the coming decades. The gap is starting to widen. As a citizen in the Cincy area I want to see this community succeed, but it must get its act together, or it will continue to only do OK and not find that next level.

Think about how much money these companies give to local building projects and charities though...i.e. Freedom Center

Think about how much money these companies give to local building projects and charities though...i.e. Freedom Center

This is consider in most communities standard practices for the corporate community. What we are talking about is going way above this kind of effort.

Could you give me an example? P and G have one of the Aranoff theaters named after them, the Reds stadium is named after Great American Insurance Company, the Freedom Center was made possible in part to donations by P and G and Ed Rigaud...a former P and G employee, Macy's sponsers the music festival, etc. Is this less than what the average corporate world does in other cities?

Yes,

All those things are great and I am glad to see them take place, but I am talking about not only does the good corporate citizen do these things but they create spin-off companies, fund major research at the local universities that creates jobs, they actively take part in the development of your downtown (Nationwide - Columbus (arena district and downtown development), Lilly foundation in Indy (100 millions in research, university grants, and downtown development), Bank of America in Charlotte - downtown development and mixed use projects). What I am talking about is when a corporation actually changes the built environment and the business environment in a community above and beyond just being a company that employees people in town or gives to the museum, charity, theater, or festival. UncleRando has a point. The Banks development is very important to the future of downtown Cincy, if they need an extra 10 million to get the thing of the ground, I would think Krogers or P&G would see the value of this project to the community and to them as a company (helps to recruit talented people) and fill that financial gap.

Eh, I suppose the corporate community could do more, but overall I think Cincy's corporations do a fair ammount for the city. Certainly one could argue that the University of Cincinnati almost singlehandedly transforming (or is trying to transform) the whole uptown area and Fifth Third's extensive work with the redevelopment of Fountain Square are meeting your expectations of changing the "built environment"....I guess it just depends where you look.

I was comparing it to what the corporate and university community has done in place like Columbus, Indianapolis and Charlotte. If you compare all the items listed to what has been done in Cincy I think you will find there is a noticable difference.

Yes,

All those things are great and I am glad to see them take place, but I am talking about not only does the good corporate citizen do these things but they create spin-off companies, fund major research at the local universities that creates jobs, they actively take part in the development of your downtown (Nationwide - Columbus (arena district and downtown development), Lilly foundation in Indy (100 millions in research, university grants, and downtown development), Bank of America in Charlotte - downtown development and mixed use projects). What I am talking about is when a corporation actually changes the built environment and the business environment in a community above and beyond just being a company that employees people in town or gives to the museum, charity, theater, or festival. UncleRando has a point. The Banks development is very important to the future of downtown Cincy, if they need an extra 10 million to get the thing of the ground, I would think Krogers or P&G would see the value of this project to the community and to them as a company (helps to recruit talented people) and fill that financial gap.

 

Do you really think corporations in Cincy aren't doing these things?

Not at the level of some of the corporations in the communities I mentioned.

What exactly is Nationwide doing for Columbus other than the fact that the arena is named after it?

Not at the level of some of the corporations in the communities I mentioned.

 

Ragerunner, I think this is a great time to provide the statistics to back up your previous comments.

The Lilly Family and the Lilly Foundation each have been ranked as some of the most generous philanthropic persons/foundations in the country, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Indianapolis has seen a great deal of benefit from that.  As of a couple of years ago the Lilly Foundation was the second largest foundation in country, only behind the Gate Foundation.  I'm not sure where they rank now.

What exactly is Nationwide doing for Columbus other than the fact that the arena is named after it?

 

Are you kidding?!?!  Not ONLY the Arena and surrounding district, but renovations, infill projects, RiverSouth, AND a potential streetcar funding?  I'd say Nationwide is doing a DAMN good job being a "community leader."

 

I do agree with P&G, Kroger, etc should do a hell of a lot more than what they are doing (though I know they've done their quota...).

I found this newsletter by the Sacramento Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce to be an interesting read about what Indianapolis has done.  It is a summary of a trip that 95 government and business leaders of Sacromento took to Indy to study what they have done and how they have accomplished it. 

OK, sorry for the editorial highlighting in the above article.  But it goes to the heart of why this article is bullshit.  Downtown Indy, as has been said in this thread, is 6.5 square miles.  That is a circle with a radius of about 1.43 miles.  If you look out 1.43 miles from Fountain Square, heart of downtown Cincinnati, we have as much and more than Indianapolis.  This includes big chunks of Newport and Covington, as they form part of our urban core, regardless of the political boundaries that separate them from Cincinnati.  It also includes OTR, Mt. Adams, West End, parts of East End, most of the Mt. Auburn hillside, in addition to the CBD.

 

Also, with respect to the highlighted portion about the mall... It has been open 10 years.  Circle Center has been open 10 years; Tower Place (cinti) 15 years.  Ten years into its run, Tower Place was doing pretty well (still had Banana, Gap, Limited, Express, NY & Co., Williams Sonoma, etc.), but perhaps was starting to slow down, just as Circle Center may be.  I'm not saying it definitely will, but not addressing the point is one of the many reasons why this article is crap.

OK, sorry for the editorial highlighting in the above article.  But it goes to the heart of why this article is bullshit.  Downtown Indy, as has been said in this thread, is 6.5 square miles.  That is a circle with a radius of about 1.43 miles.  If you look out 1.43 miles from Fountain Square, heart of downtown Cincinnati, we have as much and more than Indianapolis.  This includes big chunks of Newport and Covington, as they form part of our urban core, regardless of the political boundaries that separate them from Cincinnati.  It also includes OTR, Mt. Adams, West End, parts of East End, most of the Mt. Auburn hillside, in addition to the CBD.

 

Also, with respect to the highlighted portion about the mall... It has been open 10 years.  Circle Center has been open 10 years; Tower Place (cinti) 15 years.  Ten years into its run, Tower Place was doing pretty well (still had Banana, Gap, Limited, Express, NY & Co., Williams Sonoma, etc.), but perhaps was starting to slow down, just as Circle Center may be.  I'm not saying it definitely will, but not addressing the point is one of the many reasons why this article is crap.

 

This is the same thing that I have been talking about....6.5 sq miles!!!!!  Thats a little rediculous...apples to apples please!  Oh, and interesting point about the mall comparisons.

What exactly is Nationwide doing for Columbus other than the fact that the arena is named after it?

 

Are you kidding?!?!  Not ONLY the Arena and surrounding district, but renovations, infill projects, RiverSouth, AND a potential streetcar funding?  I'd say Nationwide is doing a DAMN good job being a "community leader."

 

I do agree with P&G, Kroger, etc should do a hell of a lot more than what they are doing (though I know they've done their quota...).

 

I wasn't doubting Nationwide, I was just wondering what they had done because I don't keep up with much Columbus news.

Let me put it like this:  I "pray" that P&G and Kroger and whoever else put for the effort that Nationwide does for Columbus in Cincinnati.  And I rarely pray...

Great summation Kendall, my thoughts exactly.  Once again, the Enquirer went out of it's way to cast Cincinnati and downtown in a bad light.

Below is my post in their comment section:

 

Best Newspaper, Indianapolis or Cincinnati?

 

Indy has what Cincy wants… “A Better Newspaper”.  The residents of Cincinnati are fed up with the bias journalism of the Cincinnati Enquirer and reach out to the Indianapolis Star for better coverage.

 

To the people of the Cincinnati Enquirer, do you actually do research before you post articles?  Cincinnati has a CBD of .8 sq miles.  If Cincinnati used the inflated downtown population numbers of Indianapolis, you would have a population greater than downtown Indianapolis.  To include 6.5 sq miles in downtown Indianapolis’ population numbers is laughable.  Downtown Indianapolis is about the size of downtown Dayton.  Cincinnati also has something Indianapolis lacks, quality neighborhoods.  We have some of the finest neighborhood business districts in the Midwest.  Clifton, Hyde Park Square, Oakley Square, Mt. Lookout Square, Pleasant Ridge, Mt. Adams are superior to anything Indy has to offer.  Indianapolis has “Broad Ripple” which is 1 step above a strip mall.  The quality of homes, architecture and topography of the city of Cincinnati are also superior.  Different municipalities have different strengths and for our home newspaper to exploit our city to sell newspaper is pathetic.  I understand the need to report the news accurately even when it could reflect negatively on the city but your newspaper flames the city with misleading headlines too often than not with little factual data.  Does it make you sleep better at night to know that you have persuaded the local residents of this area to not go downtown?  Perhaps your journalists should walk a couple of blocks from 3rd street to see a downtown that was slammed with activity over the last couple of weeks since the square had partially reopened.  My family and I went ice skating this weekend and found that there was over an hour wait to skate.  There was good foot traffic throughout the stores on fourth street, Tower Place and our two department stores.  While Tower Place has seen better days, hopefully it can be reinvented and the city can continue to put store fronts on the street like the recent Joseph A. Bank.  Downtown Indy has done some things right, but it also has the advantage of a metropolitan area that offers little outside of downtown.  As a border city with lively business districts, Cincinnati has to work harder to lure people downtown.  While I would like to see the progress speed up, progress is being made.  The downtown population is on the rise, condo developments & loft conversions are popping up all over the city and $42 million is being invested into Fountain Square. 

 

The Enquirer preaches about good corporate citizens in Indianapolis, maybe it should look in the mirror.

 

Great summation Kendall, my thoughts exactly.  Once again, the Enquirer went out of it's way to cast Cincinnati and downtown in a bad light.

 

I don't really think that this article really casts Cincinnati in a bad light.  The only part that is crap, as kendall pointed out, is how the Enquirer is looking at Cincinnati's urban core.  Development such as what has been going on in Covington and Newport should not simply be discounted because they happen to be in a different political jurisdiction but are actually very much a part of the urban core.  But I don't think it is just the Enquirer that is guilty of this.

 

As far as the mall comparisons go, when you combine the square footage of Tower Place and Newport On The Levee, you still have about half the square footage of Circle Center Mall, which in my opinion puts them in two completely different leagues.  Indy has had a large number of suburban retail developments come online recently, so that will undoubtedly effect Circle Center.  But I do think Circle Center has a better chance than Tower City did for two reasons.  One, Simon is the largest owner of malls and there headquarters is just a couple of blocks away.  And secondly, Indianapolis has done a fantastic job with their convention industry, including sporting events such as the NCAA Final Four.

 

3CDC seems to be doing things right, so I think things are headed in the right direction for Cincinnati.  It will then be up the the big players such as the P&Gs and Krogers of the Cincinnati community as to how well the plans actually come to fruition.  I think this is where Indianapolis has had their greatest success and hopefully Cincinnati will be able to have similar success.

>the city's natural assets.

 

Like endless flat land, no woods, no pesky river to build bridges over...

 

>"It's amazing. You get the big-city feel, but it's not like Chicago or New York. It's more homey," said Heather Sperry, a student at nearby Butler University.

 

She's an idiot.  There's no way this quote should have appeared in the story without a dissenting opinion.   

^ HA, you put a smile on my face Jake.

My latest comment to reply to the ignorance of the Enquirer comment thread:

 

Shoe, I can tell you are naive to Cincinnati and urban areas.  Any suburbanite that complains about downtown parking is merely regurgitating someone else’s rant.  Downtown has plenty of affordable parking.  Fountain square after 5PM during the weekday and all day during the weekends is $3.  The Westin & Gramercy offer $1 parking after 5PM and all day on the weekends.  During the week you can park there for $1 for 2 hours.  You can get a monthly parking spot in the city for $70.  People want to compare entertainment options with larger cities like Philly & Chicago.  Since this is an open playing field let me quote some parking numbers for you that was posted by USA Today two months ago.  The source was “Colliers International’s 2006 Parking Survey.

 

Midtown Manhattan - $574 a month

Downtown Manhattan - $500 a month

Boston - $420 a month

San Francisco - $335 a month

Chicago - $332 a month

 

The bottom line is parking is no excuse.  Downtown Indy charges more to park.  While not everyone is interested in urban life or downtown culture, don’t smear the city with ignorant comments that is just regurgitated from some media source.  Downtown is quite safe.  I feel quite comfortable walking my 8 year old daughter through the streets.  We spent Saturday morning at vibrant Findlay Market in Over-the-Rhine.  You can find those photos here:

 

http://www.pbase.com/cincyimages/findlay_market

 

Panhandling and street performers are part of city life.  ALL CITIES HAVE THEM. Sometimes they are a nuisance but most of the time they provide entertainment and are part of the urban experience that many of us love.  Take our resident pandhandler “Pokemon” for example, every time I seem him he is waving at kids. 

 

http://www.pbase.com/cincyimages/image/71496200

 

Is it so bad to be exposed to all walks of life?  Has the American subdivision really sheltered people that much?

^I saw that....very pleased to read your post on the enquirer!!!  Thx.

I think the real difference is Indy has a vision of were they want to be today and in the future and the Government, most of its citizens and Corporate community agree on that vision. This allows them to all work on the same plan and get things done. Cincy doesn't have a vision that is supported by its government, citizens and corporations. There is a great Japanese proverb that say, "Vision without action is a daydream. Action without a vision is a nightmare." Lets hope Cincy finally understands it must have a true vision of its future and then everyone must work to make it happen.

Another example of a Corporation helping take their community to another level.

"Mutual of Omaha will begin construction in early 2007 on one of the most significant development projects in Omaha’s recent history. The Fortune 500 company will invest $250 million on a 15-acre site immediately east of its headquarters. Known as Midtown Crossing at Turner Park, this redevelopment project will convert eight underutilized city blocks into a vibrant urban village with seven buildings, most of which will be nine stories high. The entire project will open at the same time, and will include 600 multifamily units and 200,000 square feet of retail space." http://www.heartlandrebusiness.com/articles/DEC06/cover1.html

My third post on the Enquirer comment board:

 

Cincinnati as a metropolitan area has so many options.  What the city doesn’t need to do is copy a city that doesn’t reflect the culture, topography or built out environment of our city.  We don’t want a mall like Circle Centre in downtown Cincinnati.  I am happy for Indy that they were able to make a mall work in their CBD.  It shows that the rest of the metro offers little where people have to come to their downtown to shop at a mall which is fundamentality a suburban way of life.  Hey I enjoy Kenwood from time to time but when I go to a city I go to experience urban life.  Street side retail, downtown groceries, light rail, street cars & businesses that stays open later would all be welcomed.  If Cincinnati is to look at a city and take note, use Portland as an example.  The two cities have many similarities in topography and built out environment.  Both have dense cores, great arts, minimal surfaces lot (relative to Indy) and beautiful rolling hills. 

 

I read comments on here asking why people would come downtown when they can shop at Target.  Well downtown isn’t for you so disregard the conversation.  Again there is nothing wrong with that, just don’t smear the city that many of us love because you don’t understand what we see here.  At the same time, of course there is room for improvement, the city isn’t perfect and I am not trying to say it is.  For one I think the city can do a better job with signage.  Our signage is embarrassing.  Our uptown has signs so faded they look like they are from the late 70’s.  For signage I point to Pittsburgh for example.  They have done a wonderful job with signage.  It won’t save a city (Pittsburgh is the only major metropolitan area to lose population) but it will provide tourists, conventioneers and locals with bright lively directions.  It is also a simple fix.  Next the square is progressing nicely, we need to get our local institutions down there.  Graeter’s, Montgomery Inn BBQ, Dewey’s, Joseph Beth, etc…  These local institutions are Cincinnati and would all be welcomed downtown.  I also hear grumbles about Hard Rock from people – no thanks.  That was yesterday’s chain.  Since suburbanites like chains, I would suggest ESPN Zone or BW3’s.  Put it on Fourth & Plum across from the convention center which will stimulate “West 5th” as Cincinnati’s new “nightlife” district.  Uni-gov would also be welcomed as well as aggressive annexation.  The city suffers from a perception problem.  Uni-gov would help with the perception.  All of a sudden Cincinnati is the largest city in the state and growing. – Yes like Columbus.  After all many people don’t realize that the original 1950 boundaries of Columbus are actually shrinking.

Wow ... http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=421739

I cannot get past the fact that the whole comparison is not on equal terms, and I am going to make sure the writer of the article knows.  Why go out your way to mention a boundary for "downtown" Indianapolis and not even mention it for Cincinnati?  I think that could have resulted in some questions of the validity of the boundaries, as if the fact that the zoo is part of downtown shouldn't have.  I guess I should be thankful that the size was pointed out at all.  I want to stress that I think Indianapolis has done great things, but let's be consistent.

I just reread the article in the newspaper, which features the quotes from those responding to the poll at the end. At least one mentions how much safer people feel in Indy. While Cincinnati does have its more "risky" areas that wouldnt necessarily be the best places to stroll, the fact is, many many cities have the places you avoid. Indianapolis Im sure has those areas. Honestly, I feel pretty safe walking around downtown, and my parents let me go down a lot to just walk and explore with a friend, and Im only 17. This perception just really bothered me...

Why go out your way to mention a boundary for "downtown" Indianapolis and not even mention it for Cincinnati?  I think that could have resulted in some questions of the validity of the boundaries,

 

I agree with you in terms of making comparisons, but I think it does bring up a valid point in why and how we define downtown.  Why have we chosen to make downtown and the CBD synonymous?  In Cincinnati, Uptown includes several neighborhoods, correct?  I'm sure tradition has a lot to do with it, but why shouldn't downtown have a broader definition.  Sure, you'd have to take the bad with the good that would come from that, but I think it is something to at least consider.

 

David Esrati has made the point many times in Dayton that downtown needs to be defined more broadly, including the Oregon District, Webster Station, McPherson Town, and possible even the Brown Street corridor and the UD area.  I thought it was kind of ridiculous as first, but the more I have thought about it, I think it does have some merit to it.

 

Again, I'm not completely sold on the idea, but it is something to ponder.

In the enquirer article today they stated the population of 'downtown' indy at 20k and cincy at 6k.  with downtown indy 6.5 sq miles and downtown cincy about .8 sq miles* that would put population densities at:

 

Cincinnati: 7500 persons/sq mi.

Indianapolis: 3076 person/sq mi.

 

 

 

*(someone else in this thread used that number, I'm assuming it is true if Downtown is borded by 71, 75, river, central parkway)

Good job, Monte on posting the comments ... it was definitely NOT a waste of time and will be remembered in the minds of it's readers for a long time.

 

 

It's just a bitch that we were beaten by the Colts at a time like this. Damn.