Interesting... maybe this brings new life to the art building on Euclid concept, which I was pretty fond of before they dropped it.

 

Your confusing 2 different things here.

 

Oops... what am I missing?  I remember plans for a long building between the law school and 21st, which would have had studio space fronting Euclid, and which would also have housed the theater dept.  And I thought that had been scuttled in conjunction with the planned move to PHS.

 

As with everything else, youve rather simplified it.  There is the move of CSU performances to Allen, and then the Art and Theatre department, which was trying to move to E13th (which was the more recent development).  The possibility of a new center on Euclid isnt necessarly scuttled (but supposedly on the back burner), but thats related more to the Allan partnership than the E13th project.      http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/01/cleveland_state_university_art.html 

 

No, I think 327 was talking about the the plans for a black box type performing arts space that a study was done for a couple of years ago and proposed to be placed adjacent to the Music/Communication, and Law Buildings. Unless they have been cleaned from this thread (which they should not have because I put them here with permission from CSU) then you can probably find them several pages back (around the mid of 2007, iirc).

Interesting... maybe this brings new life to the art building on Euclid concept, which I was pretty fond of before they dropped it.

 

Your confusing 2 different things here.

 

Oops... what am I missing?  I remember plans for a long building between the law school and 21st, which would have had studio space fronting Euclid, and which would also have housed the theater dept.  And I thought that had been scuttled in conjunction with the planned move to PHS.

 

As with everything else, youve rather simplified it.  There is the move of CSU performances to Allen, and then the Art and Theatre department, which was trying to move to E13th (which was the more recent development).  The possibility of a new center on Euclid isnt necessarly scuttled (but supposedly on the back burner), but thats related more to the Allan partnership than the E13th project.      http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/01/cleveland_state_university_art.html 

 

No, I think 327 was talking about the the plans for a black box type performing arts space that a study was done for a couple of years ago and proposed to be placed adjacent to the Music/Communication, and Law Buildings. Unless they have been cleaned from this thread (which they should not have because I put them here with permission from CSU) then you can probably find them several pages back (around the mid of 2007, iirc).

 

No, I was quite aware that he was talking about that.  That is what I was refering to.  Thus the link further explaining...

If I wasn't confused before, I am now.  Obviously these plans have been evolving and I haven't kept up with them.  But my understanding, simple if you will, was that the new art building plan is mutually exclusive with all CSU-PHS plans, due to the scope of the art building plan.  The same problem doesn't need two solutions, right?  And I distinctly remember a quote establishing this relationship between the plans, although I don't remember where I heard or read it.  I'm actively involved at CSU and I do sometimes hear things.     

 

The art building I'm thinking of was proposed to take up all of the Euclid frontage there, including where Corlett was, and was to house all the art departments somewhat comprehensively.  Visual arts would be displayed along Euclid, performance space would be inside, etc.  Then, later, the PHS plans came along and this "comprehsive location" plan was back-burnered... I had thought.  In short I thought the art building plan was equally related to any given plan to house any art departments anywhere else.  I read the Litt article and it makes no reference to the art building proposal.  Again, what am I missing?  It's a simple question from a simple man.

^For reference (not an answer to your question, because I'm a little confused now too): http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2007/04/arts_complex_proposed_for_eucl.html

Thank you Strap, that's the one.  Willyboy, were you pointing out that there are multiple irons in the fire at PHS?  I guess my original comment still stands... I wonder if they'll now reconsider the art building idea, the one in StrapHanger's link.

We really could use a Skyline or a Gold Star at CSU. I'd be happy with anything name brand, besides Subway.

 

Skyline or Gold Star? Go to UC if you want that crap excuse for chili.

kstay2 +1

 

also, we have to, as a city, be careful of this. two years ago do you know cincinnati magazine published a story of the most powerful people in the metro area. you know who was #2? nancy zimpher, head of UC. why? because both UC and OSU are the LARGEST employers in their respective city limits. (keyword is city limits, not metro area). the city of cincinnati had to work hard to keep UC from expanding, but its efforts have been futile.

 

i dont thing cleve state is at that level, but places like cle clinic are. i guess its a macro view of what big business can do to us gov't.

 

I, however, would love to see CSU get to the level of UC/OSU. That kind of energy and young people can really liven up a city and, especially when done well, can help the brain drain immensely.

I feel like I’m in the twilight zone. 

 

Thank you Strap, that's the one.  Willyboy, were you pointing out that there are multiple irons in the fire at PHS?  I guess my original comment still stands... I wonder if they'll now reconsider the art building idea, the one in StrapHanger's link.

 

Exactly.  The link I posted provided more background.  According to the Litt article the new building under consideration for where Corlett was, was never nesessarily out of consideration, just never had a source of funding. 

It was never more than a pipe dream without a major donor or unexpected source of funding. 

 

(you must have missed the last paragraph)

 

"Over the long term, CSU would like to build an arts complex on its own campus east of the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at E. 18th Street and Euclid Avenue. Land has been cleared for the arts complex, but that project awaits a donor, Boyle said.."

 

This does make it a bit confusing since they are partially investing in the Allen Theatre space and also possibly buying the building at E. 13th for Arts space etc (I could have seen leasing this if they were planning a new building down the road (again, the proposal at the Corlett sight)).  Anyway I got the idea that the possible new building on Euclid was more-so going to be for performing arts stuff where they would still have needed “other” art studio/gallery space (what E 13th would have been...?), but I dont really know.   

 

Does anybody know what is going on with the project between Chester and Payne with the dorms around the baseball field?  There was an article last year saying that CSU was picking between 2 finalists and that construction could start the summer of 2010.  Any more news on this?

I believe that in the last few pages, there is a link to a request for bids from CSU for this exact project, so its progressing I presume.

And you have to see those new dorms in person to really get a feel for the scope. This is an entire neighborhood, as dense and urban as you could ever want, going up where there was only surface parking last year.

 

And then came the pastel vinyl siding... blech.  I still love this project but holy crap, how ugly.

it appears to be wood or some type of wood substitute, not vinyl... and still not particuarly aesthetically pleasing.  At least in only appears to be on the sides of the buildings which aren't very visible.

^Except when you come up the Prospect Ave exit ramp, where the [edit]vinyl siding is very painfully visible.  I cringe when I see it.  Still love the site plan and overall impact of the project though.

 

 

^I don't think that is vinyl, but rather some sort of composite.

Whatever.  It looks like hell and I'm disturbed that nobody realized how inappropriate it was at an earlier stage.  I seem to remember people taking issue with this here when the renderings came out.  It's prominent as you're coming in westbound on Euclid, where it serves as a really tacky gateway for downtown.  Not a lot of winning CSU architecture recently.  This worries me, as they're planning a lot more construction in the near future.

Anyone care to post another project update photo post? :)

yea that is my main gripe with this CSU expansion. the architecture, but mostly building materials, is very cheap. the new student center, while formally interesting, absolutely PALES in comparison with the Morphosis building on UC's campus. I just don't see it here. The performing arts building was a great addition though.

yea that is my main gripe with this CSU expansion. the architecture, but mostly building materials, is very cheap. the new student center, while formally interesting, absolutely PALES in comparison with the Morphosis building on UC's campus. I just don't see it here. The performing arts building was a great addition though.

 

UC took a strong approach to progressive architecture two decades ago and have not looked back.  They do have some great buildings by all the big names, but there isn't any cohesive feel.  It's kind of like a hobby collection.  Not that I'm saying that's bad, but there are two different ways to approach a campus master plan.

 

I do think the Education and Human Services building is pretty nice.

regardless; it works. UC gets smarter and bigger every year, and has done incredible things to the local economy. If CSU wants to work towards this goal, that would be wonderful, but the way i see it its either go big or go home. I don't think their current buildings/site plan can compete with what is out there. Though, CSU is a LOT better than it used to be.

Whatever.  It looks like hell and I'm disturbed that nobody realized how inappropriate it was at an earlier stage. ..... It's prominent as you're coming in westbound on Euclid, where it serves as a really tacky gateway for downtown.  Not a lot of winning CSU architecture recently.  This worries me, as they're planning a lot more construction in the near future.

 

comment removed due to a request from the author.

My concern, as an alumnus, is that CSU will be viewed as second class based on the impressions created by its architecture and material choices.  I'm aware that this concern is somewhat superficial, but if appearance wasn't relevant we could replace architects with algorithms and save a lotta dough.

Hate to say it, but "second class" would be an improvement for CSU among the world's universities.

Lets keep the converstion relevent to the topic, and refrain from arguments or calling out members of the forum.

 

 

 

 

I was told by one of the construction crew that the siding on the new dorms, Euclid Commons, is a composite that includes concrete.

I throw up a little in my mouth every time I bike down the Euclid Corridor to work past those dorms. I bike to work everyday. The siding, no matter what it is made of, whether it be hardee board, vinyl, fairy dust or another composite material, is completely inappropriate. The architect, Weber Murphy Fox, should have known better.

 

To move the argument from the subjective to something a little more objective, it made me realize there is, I believe, no example of siding on anything within the confines of downtown Cleveland inside the loop created by the Inner Belt trench. Mainly this is because there is not one single family house within the downtown area, as defined by the trench (this is not a complaint or problem, fyi). Its just out of place. An architect worth their fee would pick up on something like this. Aesthetics, while generally subjective, do have objective qualities. This falls under that category.

 

Its great that CSU is building dorms. Its great they are going for something high density. Its great they are doing it on the site they are doing it on. That does not mean they have not made some egregious mistakes with the commissioning and management of this project. At least they've given another architect a good renovation gig in a generation to fix it, as that siding isn't exactly a 100 year material.

 

And the builder, Marous, doesn't have a good reputation around town for their quality control. That is also worrisome.

 

Is it better then say, if they used eifs? Maybe... I don't know. If you're just going to build without much of a thought for design, as evidenced by these dorms, at least use brick. At least then you're showing you have some sensitivity to context.

 

I agree with others, this is very concerning precedent given CSU's ambitious expansion plans. Once one hack has done it, its tough to stop others.

 

Most colleges have relatively strict regulations in regards to what materials can and cannot be used on their campus buildings. It seems apparent that given CSU's lack of experience in new building and student housing that no such regulations exist. Anyone else know?

I pretty much agree with the comments about the siding.  I drive within feet of it every day and cannot believe how bad it looks on some really uninspiring buildings in the first place.

 

My question is how did this get past design review?

My prediction:  Give those buildings a scant few years in the proximity of the salt and road grime of the innerbelt combined with the overall lack of government building proactive maintenance and everyone will get their chance to review the design when it needs to be replaced.

 

I'm in agreement with the complaints above--it looks like it should be a medical office in Avon Lake.

@ Rockitect:  If you are throwing-up a little in your mouth  when you bicycle past the CSU dorms (along Euclid or Prospect?), I'd highly advise you not to bicycle down Detroit, past W. 65th as the newly constructed 'architecture' you see there could result in your gut bursting forth with partially digested foodstuffs or perhaps projectile vomiting.

 

That said, I may agree with you on the vinyl siding issue.  But, what is the cost effective replacement?  This siding is primarily being used on a part of the building that faces the highway, correct?  Further, this building is being constructed on a tight budget by the developer, which I believe is American Campus Communities.  Higher quality buildings at CSU have been constructed using different revenue sources.  For instance, the Rec Center was financed with funds from parking revenue.  The Health/Education building was financed w/ State of Ohio funds.  The Student Center, I believe, is being financed w/ in increase in general student fees.  I believe the type and amount of funding has a direct effect on material quality.  I could be wrong. 

While I generally agree that CSU needs to improve upon the quality of their built environment. I'd say that based on the history of constructed campus buildings, we are off to a pretty strong start.

@ Rockitect:  If you are throwing-up a little in your mouth  when you bicycle past the CSU dorms (along Euclid or Prospect?), I'd highly advise you not to bicycle down Detroit, past W. 65th as the newly constructed 'architecture' you see there could result in your gut bursting forth with partially digested foodstuffs or perhaps projectile vomiting.

 

Oh that already happened to me there.  Even though its not downtown and is a neighborhood, I couldnt get over the amount of horrible vinyl there (gee that outa age well)..  I guess affordability has its price :|.

 

I only wished I had stopped at Gypsy after as opposed to before for their wonderful muffins.   

@willyboy (& future readers)...

 

On Detroit near W. 65th, I am not speaking of vinyl.  It's actually stainless steel ART w/ absolutely no function that may induce vomiting.

 

Regarding American Campus Communities, have a look at their site:

 

http://www.americancampus.com (corporate site)

 

http://studenthousing.com  (consumer site)

 

You will likely note lots of vinyl in projects all over the USA.  I am in no way justifying vinyl.  But, what is the cost effective replacement, especially in the instances where the developer is not going to own the building?

I throw up a little in my mouth every time I bike down the Euclid Corridor to work past those dorms. I bike to work everyday. The siding, no matter what it is made of, whether it be hardee board, vinyl, fairy dust or another composite material, is completely inappropriate. The architect, Weber Murphy Fox, should have known better.

 

To move the argument from the subjective to something a little more objective, it made me realize there is, I believe, no example of siding on anything within the confines of downtown Cleveland inside the loop created by the Inner Belt trench. Mainly this is because there is not one single family house within the downtown area, as defined by the trench (this is not a complaint or problem, fyi). Its just out of place. An architect worth their fee would pick up on something like this. Aesthetics, while generally subjective, do have objective qualities. This falls under that category.

 

Its great that CSU is building dorms. Its great they are going for something high density. Its great they are doing it on the site they are doing it on. That does not mean they have not made some egregious mistakes with the commissioning and management of this project. At least they've given another architect a good renovation gig in a generation to fix it, as that siding isn't exactly a 100 year material.

 

And the builder, Marous, doesn't have a good reputation around town for their quality control. That is also worrisome.

 

Is it better then say, if they used eifs? Maybe... I don't know. If you're just going to build without much of a thought for design, as evidenced by these dorms, at least use brick. At least then you're showing you have some sensitivity to context.

 

I agree with others, this is very concerning precedent given CSU's ambitious expansion plans. Once one hack has done it, its tough to stop others.

 

Most colleges have relatively strict regulations in regards to what materials can and cannot be used on their campus buildings. It seems apparent that given CSU's lack of experience in new building and student housing that no such regulations exist. Anyone else know?

 

My house has some composite siding (Ave. Dist.).......  And no, I definitely don't agree with its use in dorms, especially with college students' propensity to burn things while attempting to cook, but it really is coming into mainstream use by lots of universities.

Oh I was wondering, but then I thought you had to mean Battery Park (since the talk of vinyl).....

 

Oh the bus shelters.... thats hardly comparable... At least they are cool and interesting, even though they may be functionless....

Spend more money and do it right. Honestly. These are dorms... the profit / payback period is over a much longer period... there is no excuse in my mind. None. Its just laziness / lack of foresight / universities buying the developer's B.S. CSU hired the wrong team for this project. They went for money over innovation, and that is sad.

 

Collectively, we need to have higher standards for these types of projects. Just because they are doing dense urban development, doesn't mean that alone is good enough. If you're happy just get anything, that is what you're going to get. Anything.

 

Its not like this is a condo project in a depressed market, where you have to make your profit in your sales, or else, and you're assuming you have to make profit on only selling 1/2-3/4 of the units and anything beyond that is butter and you may not even do that... (Ahem, Avenue District).

 

Could we please quite using vinyl as the nomenclature. The CSU dorms are not vinyl. Its just siding. They never would have let vinyl through. I hope.

 

Composite can be fine, when used appropriately. This was not the situation.

 

Lots of colleges are going this route, but they also aren't colleges that are urban campuses doing infill projects. They are campuses doing what amounts to are suburban style condo / apartment buildings. Which are horrible in their own right. I went to Kent State, and I think the Centennial dorms they did are an abomination. They used so much vinyl in the finishes, the dorms were still releasing off gases 3-4 years after opening when you were inside.

 

Personally, they look more like a Motel 6 someplace like Streetsboro. All they need is huge fake roofs.

 

As far as I know, the entire dorms are going to be covered in the siding. If my memory is correct, they might be using some brick near Euclid.

 

Re: Gordon Square bustops. I'll answer you in the right forum. My answer is too long.

Correction on two things:

 

It sounds like the material is hardiplank, not vinyl.  It's not really appropriate, but it's still far better than vinyl, and it tends to last a while.

 

Also, there are indeed sided, wood frame houses within the Innerbelt.  Check on the side streets north of Superior and south of Hamilton from East 18th to East 25th.

Also, there are indeed sided, wood frame houses within the Innerbelt.  Check on the side streets north of Superior and south of Hamilton from East 18th to East 25th.

 

Well, yeah, but that area is generally not considered part of downtown.  Almost by definition.  It's more of an anomaly than an examplar.  I believe last week someone even created a "what's up with this area?" thread to bemoan its underdevelopment.  And it's not seen as you approach on Euclid, which is supposed to be downtown's grand entrance from the east... arguably its most important entrance of all.

 

People aren't going to do mass spectroscopy or whatever before their minds register a judgment upon viewing this scene.  Man I wish I could post a picture.

People aren't going to do mass spectroscopy or whatever before their minds register a judgment upon viewing this scene.  Man I wish I could post a picture.

 

What are you looking for that to tell you, lol?  And it's mass spectrometry, but I digress!

I made it up.

 

Point being, nobody really cares about the true nature of the material.  People care about the end result, which is the sense you get from looking at it.  And clearly this stuff was meant to mimic vinyl siding, for reasons I cannot fathom.

That we don't care what specifically it is made of or what the technical term for the amterial is; it still looks like sh!t.

That we don't care what specifically it is made of or what the technical term for the amterial is; it still looks like sh!t.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you there - the siding bugs me too; however, I think the vinyl windows bug me more!  There is something to be said about Cleveland architecture, though.  Cleveland isn't known for brick bungalows - it's known for sided bungalows.  It honestly kinda blends in with much of the city housing stock.....

I made it up.

 

Point being, nobody really cares about the true nature of the material. People care about the end result, which is the sense you get from looking at it. And clearly this stuff was meant to mimic vinyl siding, for reasons I cannot fathom.

 

Be fair, both are mimicking wood siding.

 

Also, I didn't say whether or not the area north of Superior was part of downtown.  I corrected an incorrect statement that there are no buildings with siding within that area.

 

Just because you don't like the material (I don't either) doesn't mean that we should go around stating things that are factually incorrect.  Just because you don't like that you had convenient but incorrect facts corrected doesn't mean you can refute them by simply restating your opinion.

 

Hell, this is getting so irritating that I'm starting to like the siding on the dorms!  More siding says I!

Actually, the design of these dorms is so bad, that the siding is actually better than the alternative.  the brick goes about half way up.  If it hadn't been broken up by "something" these buildings would be a clone of all the worthless non descript brick boxes built in the 60's and early 70's. (many of which populate euclid from the inner belt to east 40thish).

You're absolutely right X.  It just seems like we're having to put inordinate effort into proving that jelly is sticky and cows eat grass.  U. G. L. Y. they ain't got no alibi they're ugly, these dorms. are. ugly.

Is this up and running?  I can't see it from my work computer:

 

New Student Housing: Euclid Commons

http://www.csuohio.edu/offices/architect/webcam/studenthouse.html

Is this up and running?  I can't see it from my work computer:

 

New Student Housing: Euclid Commons

http://www.csuohio.edu/offices/architect/webcam/studenthouse.html

Yes.

My prediction:   Give those buildings a scant few years in the proximity of the salt and road grime of the innerbelt combined with the overall lack of government building proactive maintenance and everyone will get their chance to review the design when it needs to be replaced.

 

I'm in agreement with the complaints above--it looks like it should be a medical office in Avon Lake.

 

or downtown apartment living in places like Charlotte..... 

OK, someone definitely needs to post a photo of the dorms so we expats can share in the horror. The construction cam is too zoomed out.  Though I already feel queasy typing on a bus stuck in traffic, so maybe I shouldn't see something that's making so many people throw up in their mouths.

My prediction: Give those buildings a scant few years in the proximity of the salt and road grime of the innerbelt combined with the overall lack of government building proactive maintenance and everyone will get their chance to review the design when it needs to be replaced.

 

I'm in agreement with the complaints above--it looks like it should be a medical office in Avon Lake.

 

or downtown apartment living in places like Charlotte.....

 

Avon Lake and Charlotte--sort of the same thing, though Charlotte is coming round.

@willyboy (& future readers)...

 

On Detroit near W. 65th, I am not speaking of vinyl. It's actually stainless steel ART w/ absolutely no function that may induce vomiting.

 

Regarding American Campus Communities, have a look at their site:

 

http://www.americancampus.com (corporate site)

 

http://studenthousing.com (consumer site)

 

You will likely note lots of vinyl in projects all over the USA. I am in no way justifying vinyl. But, what is the cost effective replacement, especially in the instances where the developer is not going to own the building?

 

WOW, talk about salesman.   Went on the consumer site to check out their portfolio, started scrolling around. Go to Owens Community College (Ohio) - The Enclave. No photo or plans of the building, but a stock photo of two girls in bikins! Who cares how it looks / functions, I want to live there!

[/img]

That's some Staten Island chic, right there!