It is time for the Sam Miller's, McFaul's to go the f*ck away.  They are clearly in leadership positions and are holding the city back.

It is time for the Sam Miller's, McFaul's to go the f*ck away.  They are clearly in leadership positions and are holding the city, county and region back.

 

I corrected that for you.  :wink: :wink:

MTS,

 

Why would CSU build their baseball stadium at E.55?  There already is one on Tri-C's campus.  No students would go to E.55 to watch a game. 

MTS,

 

Why would CSU build their baseball stadium at E.55?  There already is one on Tri-C's campus.  No students would go to E.55 to watch a game. 

 

I'm sorry.  I meant League Park.  If memory serves me correctly East Tech and the community use the field at tri-c.  So it is being used.

 

If people can drive (I wonder what attendance is?) to Lorain to watch the CSU baseball team they can certainly go to league park.  Partnering with league park would help the community and CSU.  It would certainly cut down on transportation cost, insurance and be a catalyst in a community development with historical ties.

Sam Miller needs to either get his head out of his arse or step down.  His is the type of self-aggrandizing/selfish, contentious mentality that keeps Cleveland in the Dark Ages...

 

... I'm lovin' CSU's residential/college town approach -- I say: it's about time!  We've seen the positive aspects of what development along Euclid has occurred: there is, now, 10-times the collegiate feel of the area than there was as recently as a decade ago when students joked that the Rascal House pizza joint doubled for the Student Union -- it was about the only serious retail space along an ugly, rundown, empty corridor.  Now it's more like a typical college strip with foot traffic, even... More dorms would not only boost campus but attract apt and condo builders to Euclid, Prospect and Chester around the campus area.  Having spent a lot of time around Philly and Detroit for more than a decade, I've seen how Temple and Wayne State's cold commuter campus, not unlike CSU's, have been turned into trendy student-friendly  (and most importantly SAFE) areas of their respective crime-ridden towns...  And even though I'm luke warm, at best, to RTA's Health Line, I can see some benefits for CSU's college town approach.

 

Up the road, we see the slow efforts of prestige-chasing CWRU to convert U.Circle into Hyde Park-type old-mansion/college town district finally bearing fruit.  CSU has the advantage of being downtown and the current proposal could go a long way towards extending downtown/residential/entertainment growth, while at the same time, boosting the image of CSU for suburban and out-of-town students/families... As for the grass roots/inner city gripes about the University turning it's back on it's mission to low-income students (a hot topic for both Temple and Wayne), I'll leave that for another time... 

 

 

I like it, creating school pride goes a long way, CSU needs to build up its athletic programs not just for its students, but the greater Cleveland area in general.  I love Ohio State, but it can be annoying that Cleveland is Columbus-north for college sports.

I like the clever idea of getting St. Ignatius to partner with the stadium.  Ignatius alumni may not be the local titans that a Ratner family may be, but they are a player in local and regional politics.  Getting that base exited about a plan for CSU could spark the political desire to get it done. 

Even if it is vetoed by the FCE board.

^Don't quite understand what the Forest City Board has to do with this.  Do you mean the CSU Board on which Sam Miller sits?

I was just making reference to the titans of this town.

I like the clever idea of getting St. Ignatius to partner with the stadium. Ignatius alumni may not be the local titans that a Ratner family may be, but they are a player in local and regional politics. Getting that base exited about a plan for CSU could spark the political desire to get it done.

Even if it is vetoed by the FCE board.

 

Good point with regard to SI alumni.  Some of the proudest out there.  For example,

 

QUESTION: How do you know if someone you are talking to graduated from St. Ignatius?

 

ANSWER: They'll tell you. :)

Good point with regard to SI alumni.  Some of the proudest out there.  For example,

 

QUESTION: How do you know if someone you are talking to graduated from St. Ignatius?

 

ANSWER: They'll tell you. :)

 

I don't know if that answer is entirely true.

 

 

BTW I went to St. Ignatius  :lol:

How about making ST ignatius and Glenville the home teams?

I'd be up for that.  Are any Ignatius alumni donating to the project - I ask, because that's why Benedictine plays their home games at Nobby Field at Case. 

The baseball field is a little curious.  It does seem like most of what could happen there could and should happen at League Park instead.  For CSU, why not make a park/quad/green that is for everybody and is open year round?  Ball parks by nature are surrounded by fences, and I didn't think that was the effect they were going for. 

Case had success putting its dorms around a football field

I don't think there's any comparison between college baseball and college football, in terms of contribution to campus life.  This despite the fact that the football team plays maybe 6 games a year there.  A campus ballpark for CSU isn't the worst idea in the world, it just clashes a little with plans for nearby League Park.

I'm not sure how much it does clash with the idea of league park being rebuilt. They are only a couple miles apart, but there's a big difference between asking people to go to a ballpark on the edge of downtown and asking them to go east of E 55th St. Interesting history or not, a good portion of people in Northeast Ohio would consider league park to be in a part of town they'd rather not visit. I personally think there's some potential left in that part of town, but not for a college ballpark. I think a ballpark in that part of town right now would be somewhat of a failure, because build it or not, they won't come. Plus I think it makes sense that if they're going to build a ballpark, it should be within walking distance of the new dorms they're building.

I'm not sure how much it does clash with the idea of league park being rebuilt. They are only a couple miles apart, but there's a big difference between asking people to go to a ballpark on the edge of downtown and asking them to go east of E 55th St. Interesting history or not, a good portion of people in Northeast Ohio would consider league park to be in a part of town they'd rather not visit. I personally think there's some potential left in that part of town, but not for a college ballpark. I think a ballpark in that part of town right now would be somewhat of a failure, because build it or not, they won't come. Plus I think it makes sense that if they're going to build a ballpark, it should be within walking distance of the new dorms they're building.

 

Again, if people can go to Lorain they can come to Hough.  I agree with 327.  It's how its marketted to the community.  Building this along with the other sports museum and development of the near by HL will help change the - real or perceived - perception of that area.

 

You can't just build it, you've got to building with a plan for further enhancement.  There are plenty of programs out there that would attach to this, such as the MLB inner city partnership, OHSAA games, Little League authorization, neighborhood leagues, etc.

My biggest concern is that the new CSU field will eat up events and programs that could have gone to LP, maybe enough to hinder its success.  What you say is true... people would rather go to CSU than Hough.  So there's a drawback.  Another drawback I mentioned earlier is that ball fields aren't as inclusive as what you'd ideally want in the center of a dorm cluster.  They're only good for baseball.  And how much demand is there among CSU students for a campus ballpark?  They aren't necessarily exclusive of each other, but I'd rather see these dollars put into getting a football program.

I don't see the the two ballfields being in conflict with each other. There are certainly enough high school and colleges in the area to keep them both busy. And as quoted in the article above the Indians have expressed an interest in using it. I think this is a great opportunity for CSU, and if done correctly it could turn out to be a smaller version of the Jake. Something that would bring the campus together. Oh yea and its replacing parking lots. CSU has a really strong baseball program for a midwest school. If the soccer team has a field then the baseball team deserves the same. What they have done at Case with the football field is a great example of how well this could work. I say never stop building, never stop dreaming. Oh and Play Ball!

I don't see the the two ballfields being in conflict with each other. There are certainly enough high school and colleges in the area to keep them both busy. And as quoted in the article above the Indians have expressed an interest in using it. I think this is a great opportunity for CSU, and if done correctly it could turn out to be a smaller version of the Jake. Something that would bring the campus together. Oh yea and its replacing parking lots. CSU has a really strong baseball program for a midwest school. If the soccer team has a field then the baseball team deserves the same. What they have done at Case with the football field is a great example of how well this could work. I say never stop building, never stop dreaming. Oh and Play Ball!

 

Well aren't you just a free thinker?!  :o :P ;)

^I know right.

Again, if people can go to Lorain they can come to Hough.

 

Look at it on a map and of course that's correct.  But who goes to the baseball games currently?  What is their attendance average and who are the ones going to the games?  DO people actually go to Lorain?  The issue isn't the difference between Lorain and Hough, we're talking about the difference between being right on the campus (surrounded by 250 residential units) and being in Hough, (surrounded by a broken neighborhood).  That's a major difference, both in distance and neighborhood perception.

 

This concept is clearly inspired by CWRU's football field experiment.  I would much prefer a reconstructed League Park, but I understand why they've proposed what they have.  A college stadium is ideal for the League Park site because of it's relatively small footprint.  I think a football field/athletics stadium at the site they're talking about would be ideal.  Baseball at League Park.

Why not just make it a nice slant walk, keep it green spring-fall, well kept.  There's nothing that adds to the college feel like a nice quad between residences to play frisbee, throw football, lay out, do homework, play guitar, etc, etc.  (I'm at Miami and kids flock to them on days like these last few). I'm assuming if it's big enough for a baseball stadium and seating that it's big enough to be a quad.  Is there much space like this at CSU?  I'm not as familiar with the campus as I'd like to be.  I like the baseball idea, but put it somewhere else.  League Park maybe.

That works too.  The space is plenty big.

Why not just make it a nice slant walk, keep it green spring-fall, well kept. There's nothing that adds to the college feel like a nice quad between residences to play frisbee, throw football, lay out, do homework, play guitar, etc, etc. (I'm at Miami and kids flock to them on days like these last few). I'm assuming if it's big enough for a baseball stadium and seating that it's big enough to be a quad. Is there much space like this at CSU? I'm not as familiar with the campus as I'd like to be. I like the baseball idea, but put it somewhere else. League Park maybe.

 

That seems ideal to me.

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough.  I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough.  I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

 

Why, have you been there?  Or is this a "perception" call?  I'm not going off on you (you tight assed republican) but I want to know how you can make a judgment call without having spent any time there or can say that pre development?

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough.  I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

 

Why, have you been there?  Or is this a "perception" call?  I'm not going off on you (you tight assed republican) but I want to know how you can make a judgment call without having spent any time there or can say that pre development?

 

I've been in the area a handful of times, and while I wasn't mugged, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I do downtown/near CSU campus.  You have to remember, CSU also has its own public safety dept. which would be present around a stadium on campus.

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough.  I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

 

Why, have you been there?  Or is this a "perception" call?  I'm not going off on you (you tight assed republican) but I want to know how you can make a judgment call without having spent any time there or can say that pre development?

 

I've been in the area a handful of times, and while I wasn't mugged, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I do downtown/near CSU campus.  You have to remember, CSU also has its own public safety dept. which would be present around a stadium on campus.

 

You still haven't answered my question.  How can you make that judgement decision BEFORE the development is complete.

 

Redeveloping LP, could be the start of transforming the areas image, real and perceived.

League Park is getting renovated and events are being scheduled there.  So not everyone is afraid of it.  It is a step down in safety from CSU main campus.  That can be addressed, and holding more events will begin to improve the situation around there.  Why build a similarly sized venue a couple miles away?

 

And I also don't want half the campus taken up with sports facilities.  We have the rec center, the convo center, the soccer field, some tennis courts... lots of that already for a tiny campus.  The rest needs to be residential/commercial, or green.

I like the idea of a grassy quad.  If you're at all familiar with Toledo's main campus, Centennial Mall at the center of campus was formerly a parking lot, and it's now a hub of activity in spring and fall.  Plus it makes a good place for the holy-roller campus preachers to assail the heathen students.  :-D  Even the smaller courtyard spaces see a fair amount of activity that contributes a lot to the sense of community and campus life on a mostly commuter campus.  (makes me want to go toss a frisbee on the Clinic's new allee  :evil:) 

 

I'd like to see more trees than grass.  It's the forest city.  Anything but another sports facility downtown.  I like them but we have plenty and it's a cop out.  I wish 18th had something other than a giant white bubble there for half the year.  Move that over by the freeway, after they move the freeway.

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

 

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough. I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

 

Why, have you been there? Or is this a "perception" call? I'm not going off on you (you tight assed republican) but I want to know how you can make a judgment call without having spent any time there or can say that pre development?

 

I've been in the area a handful of times, and while I wasn't mugged, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I do downtown/near CSU campus. You have to remember, CSU also has its own public safety dept. which would be present around a stadium on campus.

 

You still haven't answered my question. How can you make that judgement decision BEFORE the development is complete.

 

Redeveloping LP, could be the start of transforming the areas image, real and perceived.

 

Why are people not allowed to make educated assumptions?  It doesn't take a genius to know that a field for CSU makes sense to be... on their campus.

Also, adding this amenity in an already livable part of the city makes more sense than putting it in arguably one of the city's less economically stable neighborhoods.  While I certainly believe that the area around E55th Street has totally untapped potential, it really doesn't make sense for CSU to create a field 2 miles from campus.  It's like the ridiculous idea that Midtown Corp has for wanting to put a mountain bike park at Euclid and E55.  That program just doesn't make sense there.

 

They don't draw any attendance currently, that's why they want it on campus.

 

 

 

The goal is to keep people on campus, not have them off in Hough.  I sure as hell wouldn't go to a CSU game in that neighborhood.

 

Why, have you been there?  Or is this a "perception" call?  I'm not going off on you (you tight assed republican) but I want to know how you can make a judgment call without having spent any time there or can say that pre development?

 

I've been in the area a handful of times, and while I wasn't mugged, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I do downtown/near CSU campus.  You have to remember, CSU also has its own public safety dept. which would be present around a stadium on campus.

 

You still haven't answered my question.  How can you make that judgement decision BEFORE the development is complete.

 

Redeveloping LP, could be the start of transforming the areas image, real and perceived.

 

Why are people not allowed to make educated assumptions?  It doesn't take a genius to know that a field for CSU makes sense to be... on their campus.

Also, adding this amenity in an already livable part of the city makes more sense than putting it in arguably one of the city's less economically stable neighborhoods.  While I certainly believe that the area around E55th Street has totally untapped potential, it really doesn't make sense for CSU to create a field 2 miles from campus.  It's like the ridiculous idea that Midtown Corp has for wanting to put a mountain bike park at Euclid and E55.  That program just doesn't make sense there.

 

 

I asked him a question to better understand his comments.

MTS,

 

You know that area is not as safe.  Look at crime stats and use common sense.  While CSU's campus isn't free from its problems, it's much better than that part of Hough.  You can call it a "perception" or whatever you want.  I think "reality" also fits. 

 

Kids are not going to drive there just to watch a CSU baseball game.  I'm sure holding night games there would be a real treat, too.  For a man who is all about market forces when it comes to retail, I don't see why you don't apply the same principles here.  If the market dictates it, things will be built in Hough.   

Sam Miller, a CSU trustee and an executive at Forest City Enterprises, said Boyle and others are "dreaming" if they think developers will take on the campus project. Dan Moore, another trustee and local businessman, also questioned how much interest it will draw.

 

Sam, it's dreams that lead and inspire others to follow. Try it sometime. And nothing ever gets built without a dream shared first. If Sam doesn't see the potential of building rental housing around a publicly funded university in a downtown where rental occupancy rates are already at 95 percent, then it's clear that Sam has outlived his usefulness.

The idea of a quad is excellent and I do like it better than a ballfield. I like the idea of grass I can sit on and trees I can sit under. It would add significantly to the perception of CSU as more than just a handful of buildings on the edge of downtown that happen to have classes in them.

Does everyone realize that League Park is already being refurbished?  It's not proposed, it's underway.  All questions about whether that should be done have been answered in the positive, some time ago.  So a field at CSU would be highly redundant.  This isn't a question of where we should build one, it's a question of whether we should build another.  Go ahead, tell the student body that Hough is so bad CSU has to build it's own single-purpose facility.  That will not help sell CSU, because Hough is very very close to it.

MTS,

 

You know that area is not as safe.  Look at crime stats and use common sense.  While CSU's campus isn't free from its problems, it's much better than that part of Hough.  You can call it a "perception" or whatever you want.  I think "reality" also fits. 

 

Kids are not going to drive there just to watch a CSU baseball game.  I'm sure holding night games there would be a real treat, too.  For a man who is all about market forces when it comes to retail, I don't see why you don't apply the same principles here.  If the market dictates it, things will be built in Hough.   

 

Again, attaching to this would help.  Yes or No?  You've got to start somewhere and building/rebuilding/refurbishing a venue that is just sitting there would help not only Hough but Cleveland State.  As I said before, you can't just build the stadium, there needs to be a plan for the area and multiple uses.

 

Retail and this baseball stadium are like comparing Mango's and Kumquats!

I favor the idea of a grassy area surrounded by trees and dorms. I am a huge baseball fan, but college baseball is just not that big of a draw. I searched for a comparison and I found a link from the University of Florida, which has an elite college baseball program, 50K+ students and a lot nicer weather than Cleveland.

 

http://www.gatorzone.com/facilities/?venue=mckethan&sport=baseb

 

I'm liking the idea of a quad better than a baseball stadium, too.  It would have to be a bigger draw for on-campus living.

it would be worth exploring to see if anything comparable to what CSU is proposing has been built on any other campus around the world.  while i too favor a campus green/quad, i would be very interested to see how a baseball field w/ spectator seating could be integrated into this type of space..

I agree regarding the stadium. I think some open space would be a better decision.

There's enough unused open space on CSU's campus.  Whether or not this is because of the low quality of the space or if there aren't enough people interested in populating it, I don't know at this point.

If the university needs anything though, without a doubt it's a higher density of different uses at street level, engaging the street and sidewalk, and defining Euclid Avenue as the main focus of the university.  Another campus green in addition to the one at the Levin Urban Affairs Building (E18th and Euclid Ave) will do absolutely nothing for campus or city life.

There's enough unused open space on CSU's campus. Whether or not this is because of the low quality of the space or if there aren't enough people interested in populating it, I don't know at this point.

If the university needs anything though, without a doubt it's a higher density of different uses at street level, engaging the street and sidewalk, and defining Euclid Avenue as the main focus of the university. Another campus green in addition to the one at the Levin Urban Affairs Building (E18th and Euclid Ave) will do absolutely nothing for campus or city life.

 

While there is decent amount of open space, there isn't any well-planned open space. If there were at least a small quad that was surrounded by dorms that opened up to it, you would encourage more lively interaction. CSU needs some kids with frisbees and hacky-sacks who will enjoy hanging out on campus. I agree that we need more diverse uses on Euclid, but that is all part of the plan. CSU needs both if it wants to move towards a residential college that creates a lot of vibrant street life.

CSU has made some real progress in recent years, but it's still very hard not to look at that campus in its entirety, shake your head and wonder WTF happened.  CSU and Tri-C have both been so disappointing when it comes to architecture, place making, and, in the case of Tri-C, connectivity.  Frustrating to see so many hundreds of millions of public dollars leverage so little.

 

I guess what happened was the 1970s and its unforgivably crappy design legacy, sigh.

There's enough unused open space on CSU's campus.  Whether or not this is because of the low quality of the space or if there aren't enough people interested in populating it, I don't know at this point.

If the university needs anything though, without a doubt it's a higher density of different uses at street level, engaging the street and sidewalk, and defining Euclid Avenue as the main focus of the university.  Another campus green in addition to the one at the Levin Urban Affairs Building (E18th and Euclid Ave) will do absolutely nothing for campus or city life.

 

While there is decent amount of open space, there isn't any well-planned open space. If there were at least a small quad that was surrounded by dorms that opened up to it, you would encourage more lively interaction. CSU needs some kids with frisbees and hacky-sacks who will enjoy hanging out on campus. I agree that we need more diverse uses on Euclid, but that is all part of the plan. CSU needs both if it wants to move towards a residential college that creates a lot of vibrant street life.

 

I would rather see mixed-use than open space, and if it's to be open space I certainly don't want bare grass.  A nice quad surrounded by dorms would work.  That is, something mid-block and surrounded by buildings.  NOT another suburban lawn fronting a major downtown street.  Grass for the sake of grass, which most "green space" seems to be these days, is no good at all.  That we have too much of throughout the city.  Unfortunately the majority of Euclid through there is already developed, much of it with ugly buildings that don't belong.  So we're only talking about the area to the north.

There's enough unused open space on CSU's campus.  Whether or not this is because of the low quality of the space or if there aren't enough people interested in populating it, I don't know at this point.

If the university needs anything though, without a doubt it's a higher density of different uses at street level, engaging the street and sidewalk, and defining Euclid Avenue as the main focus of the university.  Another campus green in addition to the one at the Levin Urban Affairs Building (E18th and Euclid Ave) will do absolutely nothing for campus or city life.

 

While there is decent amount of open space, there isn't any well-planned open space. If there were at least a small quad that was surrounded by dorms that opened up to it, you would encourage more lively interaction. CSU needs some kids with frisbees and hacky-sacks who will enjoy hanging out on campus. I agree that we need more diverse uses on Euclid, but that is all part of the plan. CSU needs both if it wants to move towards a residential college that creates a lot of vibrant street life.

 

I would rather see mixed-use than open space, and if it's to be open space I certainly don't want bare grass.  A nice quad surrounded by dorms would work.  That is, something mid-block and surrounded by buildings.  NOT another suburban lawn fronting a major downtown street.  Grass for the sake of grass, which most "green space" seems to be these days, is no good at all.  That we have too much of throughout the city.  Unfortunately the majority of Euclid through there is already developed, much of it with ugly buildings that don't belong.  So we're only talking about the area to the north.

 

That's absolutely right.  Having residences surrounding this green space is key.  Forcing students to walk by it to go to class, the rec, etc will liven the space.  Green space without any intention or reasoning wouldn't benefit the area.  Given the proximity to the dorms and CSU's vision to have kids on/near campus, this would be a better fit than the ballpark.

CSU issued a request for proposals yesterday:

 

http://www.csuohio.edu/offices/architect/projects/CSU%20RFP-%20031809%20FINAL.pdf