A closer look at some additional slides from the the Nov. 17 broad Presentation:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Definitely.

 

Also, CWRU's enrollment is up like 10% since 2014. In that same time period, college enrollment nationally is down about 15%. If CWRU can keep slowly ticking up its enrollment and CSU can execute on this massive increase all while the nation's enrollment rate is plunging....Then we'll really be cooking with gas. Big for the region, not just foot traffic in the area.

 

Obligatory

 

 

33 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

A closer look at some additional slides from the the Nov. 17 broad Presentation:

 

The development north of Chester looks great, but a pedestrian bridge across the avenue would be disappointing. It would be better to see more street level activity along Chester downtown/on campus. 

 

It also looks like they propose an extension of the Euclid bike lanes west of E 22nd to the end of campus (which would likely require something move invasive then paint to fit). Narrowing 21st and 22nd to 2/3 lanes with the addition of bike lanes is also a good addition. Nothing major, but they are small scale improvement to the campus area that would benefit the many cyclists that use the corridor. 

 

Also good to see that the first new development that "could start construction within 12 to 15 months" will be on Euclid next to the science building. With City Club, the last real "gaps" on Euclid are all on Campus. Filling this gap (with development on the area in front of Drinko hopefully coming next) will really improve the feeling of campus as most people experience it along Euclid. 

 

this plan is definately a step towards an urban-style campus.  looks good

So glad they dropped that "Green Ribbon" garbage that turned the Center for Innovation in Health Professions building into a an island in a sea of grass on Euclid.  

 

This is fantastic news. I think CSU could become a beautiful campus with the prime location it's in as Cleveland downtown gets built out. I love a good urban campus 

This is way better than the last master plan, as sizzlinbeef mentioned. It'd be nice if some of the buildings actually fronted the sidewalk without the pointless grass strip, like you'd expect a city building to.

 

Edited November 17, 20222 yr by Mendo

Is Cleveland state’s enrollment up? Only schools with a competitive acceptance rate have seen increased enrollment I thought. 

If they’re serious about having a real campus they got to kill the streets through the campus like university of Cincinnati

13 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

If they’re serious about having a real campus they got to kill the streets through the campus like university of Cincinnati

I absolutely get where you're coming from, but I think it would be far more difficult to do at CSU which is literally in our downtown straddling major arteries into the center of the city, thus making it difficult to even close down side streets. I do think they can do a better job at creating a more connective and safe feel for crossing these streets and they should heavily consider eliminating street usage wherever possible. 

 

I would compare UCs campus location and layout more akin to CWRU than CSU. Still definitely urban, but not city center urban. 

1 minute ago, KFM44107 said:

I absolutely get where you're coming from, but I think it would be far more difficult to do at CSU which is literally in our downtown straddling major arteries into the center of the city, thus making it difficult to even close down side streets. I do think they can do a better job at creating a more connective and safe feel for crossing these streets and they should heavily consider eliminating street usage wherever possible. 

 

I would compare UCs campus location and layout more akin to CWRU than CSU. Still definitely urban, but not city center urban. 

 

I think the zealots have departed so it's perhaps safe to mention a skywalk or few across Chester Avenue, as there are already some across the (N-S) number streets.   "Killing" Chester or Euclid becomes highly problematic as they are both US highways.

We're lucky to have our main University Campus Downtown. Same with Tri C being there, so many of our peer cities decided the suburbs were a better fit, which generations later is to their detriment. Speaking as a "commuter school" graduate of a big city I went to such a place because of its proximity to the city I lived in, like every other student I knew, not because of athletics or conventional college town life. This masterplan looks very promising as for so long I've felt the University has undersold itself, as yeah, merely a commuter school.

Edited November 17, 20222 yr by snakebite

Not much new here. Just a regurgitated press release....

 

 

CSU releases campus master plan
By Ken Prendergast / November 17, 2022

 

At a regular meeting today of its board of trustees, Cleveland State University (CSU) unveiled a new campus master plan to capitalize on its location in Cleveland’s urban core and to guide the development of the university’s physical campus over the next decade. Details of that plan were shared with NEOtrans and other Northeast Ohio media in a press release and an illustrated presentation.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/17/csu-releases-campus-master-plan/

justice center on the wolstein site?

I would love a name change. University of Cleveland or vice versa. Any name combining a city and a state sounds cheap. Cleveland State, Memphis State, Detroit State etc. Remove the State and the new name already sounds more prestigious. It's just a perception thing but in today's shallow world perception is king.

12 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I would love a name change. University of Cleveland or vice versa. Any name combining a city and a state sounds cheap. Cleveland State, Memphis State, Detroit State etc. Remove the State and the new name already sounds more prestigious. It's just a perception thing but in today's shallow world perception is king.

THE Cleveland State University 😀

Good one.

38 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I would love a name change. University of Cleveland or vice versa. Any name combining a city and a state sounds cheap. Cleveland State, Memphis State, Detroit State etc. Remove the State and the new name already sounds more prestigious. It's just a perception thing but in today's shallow world perception is king.

100% agree and as an alumnus I’m all for the name change. 

Maybe there wasn't a lot new in the press release, but it does have us talking about CSU - and, I think, deservedly.  I'm not an alumnus and/or knowledgeable about the school's strengths or challenges as an institution of higher learning.   But, just in terms of its relationship with the city of Cleveland  - the school has done a lot to transform its area just east of downtown and the campus district has changed a lot - and for the better, (even since the 1980's when my sister attended school there.)   As Cleveland has begun accelerating its transition to a modern 21st century city from its gritty industrial past - I think the school is in a perfect position.  It's located at the footstep of a rebounding downtown - and it's a short stop away from the booming Cleveland Clinic and University Circle.  I'm not sure about what's ahead for CSU because masterplans can come and go and things can change with national/international events such as the Pandemic - but I am optimistic about the possibilities for further development.  (I'd like to see some dynamic looking and vertically significant buildings added - and being a Kent graduate, I think they've raised the competitive level at least aesthetically.)

 

Hopefully, Cleveland State will continue to garner more national acclaim as its programs evolve -  its students become its ambassadors - and as CSU's reach becomes more ambitious and international in scope.  As that happens, it only can increase the perception of Cleveland as a  place where a new, young generation of aspiring men and women actually want to come to - and, hopefully, where many want to -and can - stay.  The energy of a large, dynamic college is unique and infectious and creates a great community of teachers and support staff in and around it as well.  Certainly, this environment helps bring residents that can contribute  much to the fabric and personality of the city.  

 

Edited November 18, 20222 yr by CleveFan

Please no major CSU setbacks and please please please, I hope that won't be able to keep that skywalk shown in the picture.

19 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

A closer look at some additional slides from the the Nov. 17 broad Presentation:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed -- please no elevated walkways and can we just stop with the "shared lane with bicycles" -- Chester does not need two lanes of traffic through campus.  Build a true separated bike lane before someone adds a white bike.  (http://ghostbikes.org/)

I'm probably the only one on this forum, but I think the skywalk makes sense. The whole point of this master plan is to have more students living on campus. Being able to get to the library without going outside at 9pm in the middle of January is a big selling point, and may help to persuade some fence sitting students (or parents) who have comfort or security concerns. More people downtown is good for the health of downtown, and if a skywalk helps with that, then I'm all for it.

Hopefully they don't go too small with the arena, otherwise it will restrict some of the events that can be held there.  It's a shame Kevin Mackey had a substance abuse problem.  The men's basketball program was flying high prior to his demise and starting to attract big name competition and big crowds.  Apparently, CSU had no plans to try to restore it to that level.  

2 hours ago, Ethan said:

I'm probably the only one on this forum, but I think the skywalk makes sense. The whole point of this master plan is to have more students living on campus. Being able to get to the library without going outside at 9pm in the middle of January is a big selling point, and may help to persuade some fence sitting students (or parents) who have comfort or security concerns. More people downtown is good for the health of downtown, and if a skywalk helps with that, then I'm all for it.

 

When you consider some of the drug dealing and crime that goes on late at night just around the edges of CSU's campus... yikes. And plenty of universities have all-indoor means to traverse campus anyway (e.g. MIT tunnels). A skywalk isn't a bad idea. 

 

Edited November 18, 20222 yr by ASP1984

I'm probably the only one on this forum, but I think the skywalk makes sense. The whole point of this master plan is to have more students living on campus. Being able to get to the library without going outside at 9pm in the middle of January is a big selling point, and may help to persuade some fence sitting students (or parents) who have comfort or security concerns. More people downtown is good for the health of downtown, and if a skywalk helps with that, then I'm all for it.

While I see your stance I’ll respectfully have to disagree with this take. If you make a neighborhood or area desirable enough people will flock and want to be apart of it. Also what good is having people downtown when they don’t have to step foot on a city street to enjoy it? Look at the Casino, so many people visit but you’d never know because they don’t have to go outside.

You (not specifically you) can use the crime slant every time but so many people use it that it becomes a cheap reason.
More eyes on the street makes crime less likely than a dark desolate street with no one there to serve as a witness.

The most vibrant urban areas are vibrant because they create areas that are desirable and people WANT to be apart of it and they don’t have skywalks to let people hide from the urban fabric.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

5 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Hopefully they don't go too small with the arena, otherwise it will restrict some of the events that can be held there.  It's a shame Kevin Mackey had a substance abuse problem.  The men's basketball program was flying high prior to his demise and starting to attract big name competition and big crowds.  Apparently, CSU had no plans to try to restore it to that level.  

 

The men's basketball team has been performing well the past couple of years and getting some good attention/interest...

 

The article was pretty clear that the Wolstein Center is currently running a $1M annual deficit and is too big to house events that are better suited for Playhouse Square and too small for events that are a better fit for RoMoFiHo. Seems pretty obvious CSU should right-size the facility so they can improve its utilization and not operate in a deficit. 

11 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

 

When you consider some of the drug dealing and crime that goes on late at night just around the edges of CSU's campus... yikes. A skywalk isn't a bad idea. 

 

7 kids were just murdered at U of Virginia and Idaho.  I guess they better be installing skywalks.  🙄

On 11/18/2022 at 12:32 PM, Cleburger said:

7 kids were just murdered at U of Virginia and Idaho.  I guess they better be installing skywalks.  [emoji849]

 
You're not wrong, but as Ethan notes, perception is important too. 
 
Crime aside, having an all-indoors way to traverse campus in bad weather and at night is a major amenity for any university. 
 
Also, my hunch is that this discussion is comprised of 100% men. I'm sure a fair portion of women would appreciate having an alternative to cross campus other than hoofing it outside at nighttime.

 

Edited November 21, 20222 yr by ASP1984

13 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

While I see your stance I’ll respectfully have to disagree with this take. If you make a neighborhood or area desirable enough people will flock and want to be apart of it. Also what good is having people downtown when they don’t have to step foot on a city street to enjoy it? Look at the Casino, so many people visit but you’d never know because they don’t have to go outside.

You (not specifically you) can use the crime slant every time but so many people use it that it becomes a cheap reason.
More eyes on the street makes crime less likely than a dark desolate street with no one there to serve as a witness.

The most vibrant urban areas are vibrant because they create areas that are desirable and people WANT to be apart of it and they don’t have skywalks to let people hide from the urban fabric.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the response! I more or less agree with a lot of this, but the one point I want to disagree with is that I think there's a huge difference between people coming down to the Casino, and people in on-campus housing.

 

The difference being that on campus students are choosing to live downtown. If CSU can convert a few thousand commuters into residents it will make a huge difference, even if they stick to skywalks for most school functions. They'll still venture out to restaurants, bars, and entertainment FAR more than the average commuter will, and the area will look less like a ghost town when school isn't in session as these students will likely still be here on weekends and some holidays. 

31 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Hopefully they don't go too small with the arena, otherwise it will restrict some of the events that can be held there.  It's a shame Kevin Mackey had a substance abuse problem.  The men's basketball program was flying high prior to his demise and starting to attract big name competition and big crowds.  Apparently, CSU had no plans to try to restore it to that level.  

I don't think you need a cavernous 13K seat arena to grow the basketball program.  I think having a smaller arena will actually make the atmosphere better which will hopefully attract more fans. There are plenty of examples of urban schools with smaller arenas that have successful programs.  (VCU in Richmond, Butler in Indy, Drake in Des Moines, etc.)   

47 minutes ago, ML11 said:

I don't think you need a cavernous 13K seat arena to grow the basketball program.  I think having a smaller arena will actually make the atmosphere better which will hopefully attract more fans. There are plenty of examples of urban schools with smaller arenas that have successful programs.  (VCU in Richmond, Butler in Indy, Drake in Des Moines, etc.)   

 

100% agree.

 

Likening this to the planning concept of "smart shrinkage" (*chuckles), its refreshing to see an institution consider the concept that almighty sportsball doesn't have to be granted disproportionate weight in driving costly, risky, long-term capital planning decisions (*see University of Akron Football Stadium). 

 

Edited November 18, 20222 yr by ASP1984

13K was too big. But you have to remember Gund Arena (aka The Q aka RMFH) did not yet exist when it was built. So they wanted something big enough not just for men's basketball but other big events.

 

Somewhere around 7-8K would make sense.  That would allow for events requiring more capacity than any of the Playhouse Square theaters but not as much as RMFH. 

 

I'm not sure what's happening with indoor soccer.  The Cleveland Crunch returned a couple years ago and was contemplating a move to a downtown venue, but that hasn't happened yet.  The prior version of the Crunch playied at Wolstein Center and I believe they were attracting some decent crowds.

 

Edited November 18, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

41 minutes ago, Ethan said:

The difference being that on campus students are choosing to live downtown. If CSU can convert a few thousand commuters into residents it will make a huge difference, even if they stick to skywalks for most school functions. They'll still venture out to restaurants, bars, and entertainment FAR more than the average commuter will, and the area will look less like a ghost town when school isn't in session as these students will likely still be here on weekends and some holidays. 

 

I haven't been to Boney Fingers since they moved to the Days Inn but I'd be curious how their traffic has changed with their move right across from CSU vs the Arcade. Kind of surprising that there aren't more food joints across the street from that part of campus. I could see that neck of Euclid being like E College St across from Penn State: https://goo.gl/maps/7D88FtUzA6zbSm2F6

6 hours ago, Ethan said:

I'm probably the only one on this forum, but I think the skywalk makes sense. The whole point of this master plan is to have more students living on campus. Being able to get to the library without going outside at 9pm in the middle of January is a big selling point, and may help to persuade some fence sitting students (or parents) who have comfort or security concerns. More people downtown is good for the health of downtown, and if a skywalk helps with that, then I'm all for it.

 

We had this discussion vis a vis the casino and I was pleasantly surprised how many people here pushed back against the guy who apparently only joined to push against them.   Between weather, wind, potential crime or harassment, and general student comfort, they make sense.   If not having to venture onto the public sidewalk makes someone marginally more likely to come downtown (or agree to, in a group) it's a net positive, I would think..

3 hours ago, Luke_S said:

The men's basketball team has been performing well the past couple of years and getting some good attention/interest...

Yes, they have.  Unfortunately, they don't seem to be attracting many fans to their games.

12 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, they have.  Unfortunately, they don't seem to be attracting many fans to their games.

A rejuvenated stadium next to more student housing hopefully will flip the script. Honestly it's depressing watching basketball at Wolstein. 

5 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

A rejuvenated stadium next to more student housing hopefully will flip the script. Honestly it's depressing watching basketball at Wolstein. 

 

The impact of COVID the past few seasons can't be discounted either. 

In general I'm against sky-walks for all the reasons stated. But for CSU I think a sky-walk bridging Chester and connecting dorms with many classrooms makes sense. I know if I lived in those dorms in the winter I would appreciate the convenience, warmth and lighting if I had to make the walk. 

 

At best there are only going to be a few thousand living north of Chester and that's not going to create much of a critical mass that ordinarily might encourage a greater street presence. Sure if 10,000 students lived there and were walking back and forth from the dorms to classrooms then, yeah, there's safety and energy in numbers but I don't think that's the case here. In this instance I think a need for warmth, safety and convenience out-way a desire for a strong street presence. We're not talking about a leafy promenade connecting dorms to a campus. Were talking about a four season city looking to connect a dorm area with classrooms that are separated buy a large and busy city street. In this case I think it's ok.

Most people that follow the Vikings and have seen their situation at Wolstein know this, but it's important to underscore how truly outmoded and oversized the current arena is. I made this chart a few years ago to demonstrate the issue:

 

In the first 29 years of Viking’s Basketball at Wolstein, they have had an average attendance greater than ⅓ of Wolstein capacity once with 4,589 in 1997. They haven’t averaged above 25% of Wolstein capacity since 2000. They have never sold out Wolstein. Although they had improved last season to an average of 2,082 (after their 3rd NCAA tournament appearance), attendance has been trending downwards for years despite a growing on campus (and downtown) population. CSU women's basketball hasn’t averaged above 500. Only ~4% of NCAA Division 1 programs had a higher average attendance then Wolstein's capacity. 

 

One of the factors most negatively affecting game attendance isn’t Wolstein’s age, but rather its size. The fan experience and game atmosphere is significantly limited when there are always thousands of empty seats, even with a third of the arena curtained off. If the Vikings played in a ~4/5,000 seat venue, their attendance would increase above what they can draw at Wolstein. A smaller venue would also be better for the women's team, while potentially serving as a new venue for volleyball and wrestling which both play at Woodling. 

 

Construction on Wolstein started roughly a year before the successful sin tax vote for gateway/The Q. (This all happened years before I was born so I’m not entirely sure), but I assume Wolstein was planned and built at a time when they expected to be the only arena downtown for a period of time. Some of the early proposals for Gateway in the 80's didn’t include a separate arena, instead favoring a multipurpose dome. If The Q wasn't built, and the Cavs stayed out in the suburbs, then Wolstein's continued existence would be justified being the only large arena downtown. It losses over a million a year. Wolstein's existence hasn't been justified for a quarter of a century.

Hopefully they don't go too small with the arena, otherwise it will restrict some of the events that can be held there.  It's a shame Kevin Mackey had a substance abuse problem.  The men's basketball program was flying high prior to his demise and starting to attract big name competition and big crowds.  Apparently, CSU had no plans to try to restore it to that level.  

I’m was thinking of this. I know Wolstein is a great alternative for events compared to the more expensive and sometimes too large rocket mortgage field house, such a larger wrestling events, music concerts etc. I definitely believe that having a second arena the size of wolstein was seen as a major bonus when hosting the all star game last year as well as they held overlapping events in both arenas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I’m was thinking of this. I know Wolstein is a great alternative for events compared to the more expensive and sometimes too large rocket mortgage field house, such a larger wrestling events, music concerts etc. I definitely believe that having a second arena the size of wolstein was seen as a major bonus when hosting the all star game last year as well as they held overlapping events in both arenas.

This and the city/college should be actively marketing it as a world-class sound stage for film, or rehearsal facility for concert tours.    As we've seen upthread, CSU basketball is not drawing.  they can play in a smaller facility to free up the avails at the Wolstein for long term rentals.  

On 11/17/2022 at 4:21 PM, KFM44107 said:

I absolutely get where you're coming from, but I think it would be far more difficult to do at CSU which is literally in our downtown straddling major arteries into the center of the city, thus making it difficult to even close down side streets. I do think they can do a better job at creating a more connective and safe feel for crossing these streets and they should heavily consider eliminating street usage wherever possible. 

 

I would compare UCs campus location and layout more akin to CWRU than CSU. Still definitely urban, but not city center urban. 

 

This count is from 2015, which was roughly 4,000 cars over a 24 hour timeframe back then.   

 

Every time a street is shut down, people find a way around it to still get to where they need to go.  Think of all the times streets have been shut down (temporarily) for movie productions... those of us who worked downtown still found a way around.  

 

The growth of CSU would positively affect both Cleveland and the region.  I would hope that shutting down E. 21st and 22nd were at least considered as part of the planning process.    

 

 

Edited November 19, 20222 yr by Oldmanladyluck

On 11/18/2022 at 9:27 AM, Foraker said:

Agreed -- please no elevated walkways and can we just stop with the "shared lane with bicycles" -- Chester does not need two lanes of traffic through campus.  Build a true separated bike lane before someone adds a white bike.  (http://ghostbikes.org/)

just move the street parking out from the curb by 7 feet + requisite paint and bollards. Detroit has used this style successfully. These protected lanes are well received by cyclists and generally a joy to ride. JOY + urban cycling can happen! Where does Will meet Way in The Land though? https://8woodblog.com/in-praise-of-detroits-new-protected-bike-lanes/

13 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

 

This count is from 2015, which was roughly 4,000 cars over a 24 hour timeframe back then.   

 

Every time a street is shut down, people find a way around it to still get to where they need to go.  Think of all the times streets have been shut down (temporarily) for movie productions... those of us who worked downtown still found a way around.  

 

 

Sometimes. Other times when you shut down a major road for an extended period or permanently, people change their lifestyle. Just as the construction of roads or additional lanes induce more traffic, so does the elimination of roads or extra lanes.

18 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

In the first 29 years of Viking’s Basketball at Wolstein, they have had an average attendance greater than ⅓ of Wolstein capacity once with 4,589 in 1997. They haven’t averaged above 25% of Wolstein capacity since 2000. They have never sold out Wolstein. Although they had improved last season to an average of 2,082 (after their 3rd NCAA tournament appearance), attendance has been trending downwards for years despite a growing on campus (and downtown) population. CSU women's basketball hasn’t averaged above 500. Only ~4% of NCAA Division 1 programs had a higher average attendance then Wolstein's capacity.

That's great information.  I would think that the only other major and regular use of Wolstein is graduation - what do attendance figures for graduation look like?  CSU is still going to want to have an arena that big.

Is the entirety of the State’s funding for the Innovation District allocated?  I would think a portion of CSU’s master plan would be able to tap into that.

On 11/18/2022 at 5:44 PM, NorthShore647 said:

 

Construction on Wolstein started roughly a year before the successful sin tax vote for gateway/The Q. (This all happened years before I was born so I’m not entirely sure), but I assume Wolstein was planned and built at a time when they expected to be the only arena downtown for a period of time. 

And it was also planned when Kevin Mackey was transforming the men's basketball program into the big time and drawing large crowds.  When still playing at Woodling Gym, some of their games were moved to Public Hall to accommodate the larger crowds.  

Yes!  I thought I remembered CSU playing at Public Hall and it being on TV in the mid 80’s.  Thanks for confirming that.

23 hours ago, BigMacky said:

 Public Hall

Yes, Public Auditorium can seat 10k. Music Hall can seat 3k.  Any concert/event too small for RoMoFiHo should go there in place of Wolstein Center.

By the way, does Woodling Gym still exist?