I agree Lester.  A casino on the riverfront would be far more attractive than placing it in the back of downtown.  BC would've been perfect for the IKEA in my opinion.  It needs something! but hey, a casino is much better than an ocean of blacktop, weeds, and light poles.  Argosy can kiss its business goodbye if this ever happens.

A well designed casino could incorporate a nice arena. The MGM Grand in Vegas has a decent arena. In my perfect world they need to keep enough room there for me to put a retractable-roof Major League Soccer stadium there. But I won't be that rich for a couple decades so a casino would be good :)

I agree Lester.  A casino on the riverfront would be far more attractive than placing it in the back of downtown.  BC would've been perfect for the IKEA in my opinion.  It needs something! but hey, a casino is much better than an ocean of blacktop, weeds, and light poles.  Argosy can kiss its business goodbye if this ever happens.

 

How does the size of the proposed BC casino compare to the expanded Hollywood Casino?

Broadway Commons is next to one of the most important historical districts in the country, and one of the most urban center city's west of the Appalachians.  To build something not in an urban context would be an insult and a travesty for the area.

Please don't build this!  Leave these building morals in the Hoosier State!

 

Actually "Broadway Commons" is barely visible in this photograph:

 

 

 

It will be interesting to see of the casino is forced to replace the parking spots which it comes to occupy.  I'm not sure how tight the parking situation is downtown, but the existence of the vast Broadway Commons lots has been a force that has kept parking prices down throughout downtown. 

 

This was a major problem with the Broadway Commons baseball stadium site, since more parking garage spaces were required than would have otherwise. 

 

What about a combined casino/sports arena complex?  The Coliseum was privately built and is still privately owned like the Cincinnati Gardens. It's also probably dumb to try to get the coliseum demolished before The Banks is built out.   

 

And before that, the corridor leading up along Bloody Run (where Interstate 71 is now) was a huge valley, marked with slaughterhouses. Bloody Run was aptly named for the blood oozing from the pigs that were dumped into the creek.

A better view of Broadway Commons.  Don't know when this was taken though.

 

That's a painting because I don't know who would build railroads that abruptly stop in front of a large street lol.

I believe their was some sort of bridge that spanned the railyards.  You can barely make out some sort of right of way on the 1932 historical aerials shot.

That's a painting because I don't know who would build railroads that abruptly stop in front of a large street lol.

 

There is a history about that, one that is the fault of the City of Cincinnati. The CL&N stopped at Court Street (a lengthy story goes here), and it took quite a number of years to cross that very boundary to connect with what became the Cincinnati Connecting Railway -- later the N&S that ran along the riverfront west of the L&N Bridge (Purple People Bridge) and east of the split in Lower Price Hill.

 

Did you know that an elevated line to an area near Fountain Square was seriously proposed from the Court Street yards?

 

Shameless plug, my article on the CL&N that describes this all in detail:

http://www.abandonedonline.net/index.php?catid=497

Not that its happening anytime soon, but I'd say if you going to put something there and provide enough parking, I'd imagine that you would shift it into the northern section of the land - dig it into the hillside and the set it to roughly the 12th Street level. That would give you plenty of space for parking/mass transit service and more developable space near dt.

I always wished they would build a really cool triangular shaped skyscraper or building on the corner of eggleston and broadway.  It just seems like the strangest place for a parking lot.  Maybe if the casino does happen, they'll want to build something there.

The only height we will get out of a casino is going to be in the form of hotel accommodations that would be built on-site or adjacent by another company.  I can't think of any casino with any vert...well, maybe Greektown.  BTW...I love the arena idea and it would definitely fit with plenty of space for casino/hotel on BC site.  The other thing is that this would create a nice bookend for the CBD with The Banks on the south end...inevitably people would be going from point A to B and this would create alot of traffic for Broadway, Sycamore, Main, Walnut...

Very well put, rabbithash.  The arena in BC makes so much sense on so many levels and I think Cincy really does need one.  USBank has aged terribly and we will have no shot of attracting major events going forward.  Obviously NBA/NHL would be a huge boon for the city but even without that dream, a new arena makes sense.  It would make the riverfront area near GABP so much better as well.  Looks awful right now.

Here is a totally crude make up of what a marina could look like in place of US Bank arena.  Would be an awesome idea next to GABP

I also think people would have a fear of building close to the jail.  I personally think more NEEDS to be built by the jail so the place isn't singled out as an eye sore.

The jail fear is a hoot. The Ascent in Covington stands directly across the street from the Campbell County jail:

 

<img src="http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/fac52.jpg">

 

I think it is better in BC than on the River because it spreads the development around the basin, providing opportunities between the development points for new development keyed toward both tourism and locals.

I believe UC is looking into moving basketball to US Bank.  If that happens I think US Bank is planning major renovations, so you could probably kiss the move of arenas goodbye.

I believe UC is looking into moving basketball to US Bank.  If that happens I think US Bank is planning major renovations, so you could probably kiss the move of arenas goodbye.

 

Not true.....UC is currently fundraising for a new on campus arena, there are renderings of it on this site somewhere.

 

I also think people would have a fear of building close to the jail.  I personally think more NEEDS to be built by the jail so the place isn't singled out as an eye sore.

 

The whole jail thing has been beat to death several times.  First when development of BC was getting a lot of press in the early 90s, then again when people wanted the Reds ballpark built there.  I agree it is a stupid argument and something needs to go there soon though.

I believe UC is looking into moving basketball to US Bank.  If that happens I think US Bank is planning major renovations, so you could probably kiss the move of arenas goodbye.

 

??? Where did you hear this?

I also think people would have a fear of building close to the jail. I personally think more NEEDS to be built by the jail so the place isn't singled out as an eye sore.

 

The only real reason I'd advocate moving the jail is because I think that the casino would fit there nicely. The BC land could accomodate both an arena and a casino but one or the other would have to get pushed back into the corner with some pretty poor visibility.

 

Disagree...both could go.  Arenas never have poor visibility due to their size.

Casinos aren't very big. They are dwarfed by their parking garages. 

The jail fear is a hoot. The Ascent in Covington stands directly across the street from the Campbell County jail:

 

<img src="http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/fac52.jpg">

 

 

Not that it matters, but for accuracy's sake, that's the Kenton County jail.  As a side note, Kenton County has been embroiled in their own "where to build the new jail" controversy for the better part of a decade.  I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous.  Just pick a spot for a new jail, and then give the surrounding area some sort of special project or funding as compensation that they wouldn't otherwise receive.

I believe UC is looking into moving basketball to US Bank.  If that happens I think US Bank is planning major renovations, so you could probably kiss the move of arenas goodbye.

 

??? Where did you hear this?

 

I've heard it from a couple different places.  Nothing concrete or official yet to my knowledge, but I know the idea is floating around.  Apparently US Bank wants them there and would be willing to pay for renovations to get their games moved there.  The Shoemaker center is outdated for basketball use and they need a new arena.  But they don't have the money to build a new arena where the Shoe is and it's used for other sports/events.

I believe UC is looking into moving basketball to US Bank.  If that happens I think US Bank is planning major renovations, so you could probably kiss the move of arenas goodbye.

 

??? Where did you hear this?

 

I've heard it from a couple different places.  Nothing concrete or official yet to my knowledge, but I know the idea is floating around.  Apparently US Bank wants them there and would be willing to pay for renovations to get their games moved there.  The Shoemaker center is outdated for basketball use and they need a new arena.  But they don't have the money to build a new arena where the Shoe is and it's used for other sports/events.

 

If you had a streetcar running directly campus and US Bank Arena...

I hope the casinos fail again, but as long as it doesn't turn into anything like Niagara Falls, NY casino, we'll be okay.

I hope the casinos fail again, but as long as it doesn't turn into anything like Niagara Falls, NY casino, we'll be okay.

 

I agree.  Whereas the streetcar does great things for the surrounding area, casinos are quite the opposite.  I guess theoretically they could design a casino that would provide economic benefits to the area but generally people drive to the casino, park, lose their money, then drive back home.

The whole arena discussion thing is a moot point.  Unless some egotistical millionaire comes out and says that they want an NBA or NHL team in Cincinnati it's not going to happen.  If UC builds a new arena it will be on or around campus I'm sure...the city/county surely won't go to the voters looking for more money to build yet another sports venue especially when there won't be a primary tenant.

 

Sure a new marque arena would be great, but with no professional tenant around to fill it up, then the host of venues like Cintas Center, 5/3 Arena, Bank of Kentucky Center, US Bank Arena, and Cincinnati Gardens all seem to meet the current demand.

I've been to the Seneca Falls casino in Niagra Falls.  I believe it was formerly a convention center.  It has a wide arched roof which is a big improvement over the interior feel of most casinos (especially riverboat casinos), but unfortunately they have a center elevated stage where a Bon Jovi cover band plays every night for hours on end. Oh yeah, and the odds are against you.   

 

When you drive out of the casino parking garage, you are directly across the street from Detroit-esque ghetto streetscape. That casino has zero positive effect on its surroundings. Plus, lots of people who go to casinos are old and can barely walk to the parking garage. 

 

The Greektown Casino appears to be better integrated with its surroundings, but all that hubbub only supports a handful of restaurants and bars. I wouldn't expect a Broadway Commons casino to stimulate much activity in this immediate area, although it might eventually influence a hotel or two to locate on that side of downtown (yes, I already know one's planned for over there, but we have yet to see anything happen with that).   

 

I think the presence of the proposed streetcar nearby helps generate interest in the rest of the city from casino-goers, but I wouldn't expect it to have a cosmic effect. 

Jake's Seneca Falls example seems to go in opposition to L'burg and Rising Sun...Although, I can't reel off a ton of examples, I have seen positive effects in those towns in the form of improved infrastructure and greater traffic in/through town.

Like what?  Lawrenceburg is a ghost town with the exception of the big strip you turn off of to get to the casino and the new community college.  There are plenty of vacant storefronts and cheap apartments, unless something cosmic changed since last summer, when I spent an hour or two walking around the town. They still have an active railroad track that heads straight through town, right down the center of a residential street. 

 

One of the things the casinos collectively paid for was the paving of all of Indiana's gravel roads.  Sounds like a good plan, right?  Except they didn't rebuild the roads, they came through one day with an asphalt machine and laid down a strip right over the gravel without leveling it out the ruts or anything. The result is very poor paved roads, ones that are already cracking up despite having minimal truck traffic. I've heard the new roads are way worse in the snow than the gravel ones were.

 

These casino plans are a bunch of nonsense, because instead of just throwing the money in the general fund, it's funneled into projects designed to build political support.  The gravel roads one was a great one to get all of Indiana on board, even though they didn't need paved roads and the ones they got are crap.   

 

 

^Anyone looking to casinos as a panacea are pinning their hopes on a fantasy.  The good thing about this plan is that it brings other elements with it.

Like what? Lawrenceburg is a ghost town with the exception of the big strip you turn off of to get to the casino and the new community college.

You must be visiting a different Lawrenceburg than I am. I was there approx 1 month ago and I remember it prior to having a casino... there is all the difference in the world! That "ghost town" didn't even have a ghost before the casino. Even still, this is comparing two different scenarios as one is purely destination based whereas the other is placed in a downtown environment with other draws. Cincinnati is not a one trick pony like most other casino locations are.

 

It is true that this does not fix all problems, nothing does. But does this provide additional jobs? YES. Does it provide more reasons to visit downtown? YES. Does it provide additional opportunities for businesses on the periphery to benefit from these additional employees and visitors? YES.

 

Its got my vote as this will make Cincinnati more competitive with other cities when going for entertainment dollars.

The whole arena discussion thing is a moot point.  Unless some egotistical millionaire comes out and says that they want an NBA or NHL team in Cincinnati it's not going to happen.

 

Is that Uncle Optimism saying progress cannot happen in Cincinnati?

I believe that was Uncle Pragmatist speaking.  It is pragmatism in this case that will help us achieve progress in Cincinnati.

It's been discussed repeatedly on sports sites -- we don't have the demographics to support a third pro sports team.  There is only so much discretionary income in a given area that can be spent on sports and entertainment and we're borderline.  Suddenly you're diluting the pool for luxury boxes for the Reds and Bengals and if it's NBA hurting local college basketball.  Plus county taxpayers are on the hook for yet another sports facility.   

Cincy needs to focus on priorities!  A new arena is not even close to being on that radar yet.  We may be the only ones even talking about this.  Unfortunately, USBank isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

The ideas on here are great, but I don't see BC waiting around for another decade until there is some pent up demand for a new state of the art arena while we have Cintas, The Shoe, USBank, and a rarely used gorgeous Cincy Gardens in Bond Hill.

Well, as much as people hate the design of US Bank Arena, what else can we do about it? We cannot afford yet another new stadium -- hell, we can't even afford the two stadiums we built. I think that a renovation of the arena and some other improvements can go a long way in enhancing the aesthetics of the development and providing fresh marketing opportunities. It's also much more cost efficient.

Still it's fun to talk about and this is a forum.

 

I couldn't agree more!  Not meant to criticize, just adding a dose of reality to the discussion. :-D   

 

I personally don't know how I feel on the casino plan.  It has it's pros, but I don't know what I think of the disconnect it will have on streetlife.  I have been liking the pipe dream idea of Coney Island getting the casino.  They have more than enough room. 

 

I really wouldn't mind seeing BC take more of a City West approach.  Stay residential, but maybe go a little bigger.  Kinda what 4th st in Cincy is/used to be menus the highrises.

 

I think I took this in Soho, but I personally would like this kind of height.  Same size if not slightly bigger than OTR.

 

If there is to be a casino, I think it should be more centrally located to take advantage of existing infrastructure (parking, food, shopping, other entertainment, etc.).  If it is a BC, it will likely end up an island into itself with a huge parking structure attached and little economic spinoff.  I may get blasted for this, but I think a location at The Banks would be much more of an economic benefit, and if anyone remembers, that is where they were pitching riverboat gambling years ago.

http://www.greensburgdailynews.com/honda/local_story_051100138.html

 

Casino revenue helps lure Honda

 

 

Debbie Blank

 

 

Lawrenceburg Mayor Bill Cunningham reminds Hoosiers not to go badmouthing casinos. Thanks to a long-standing arrangement that allows Argosy Casino there to share revenue with the City of Lawrenceburg, that city has pledged “in excess of $10 million” to improve the infrastructure around the proposed Honda plant west of Greensburg, Cunningham revealed June 29.

 

 

http://www.casinoassociation.org/devagreements.php

 

Development Agreements

Above and beyond the required admissions and wagering taxes paid by the Indiana casinos to the State and the host communities, there are the funds paid via the Local Development Agreements (LDA's). The LDA's were negotiated with the host communities, and approved by the Indiana Gaming Commission, as a requirement of initial and continued licensure in Indiana.

 

Summary of Indiana Local Development Agreement Terms

From Crowe Chizek January 15, 2002 Report "Indiana Riverboat Gaming Estimated Fiscal Impacts of Flexible Boarding"

 

Argosy

$115,112,646 in LDA payments;

Water, wastewater, electrical and emergency infrastructure improvements for the City of Lawrenceburg;

5%-14% sliding Scale AGR tax payable to the City of Lawrenceburg;

Improvements to US Route 50 payable to Indiana Department of Transportation

 

Belterra

$1,730,240 in LDA payments;

Graduated AGR taxes payable to Switzerland County School Corporation, Vevay-Switzerland County Foundation, Vevay Town Board and Patriot Town Board;

Funding for emergency medical facility;

Funding for EMS and firefighting equipment;

Donation to Switzerland County for infrastructure improvements;

Donation to 4-H fairgrounds for improvements;

Funding for law enforcement;

Donation for riverfront park;

 

Grand Victoria

$22,429,017 in LDA payments;

Cash contributions to the City of Rising Sun for legal, financial and consulting fees, the Rising Sun Redevelopment Commission, community parks, Rising Sun/Ohio County Convention and Visitors' Bureau and the Rising Sun Regional Foundation;

Road improvements payable to the City of Rising Sun and the Indiana Department of Transportation;

 

 

Taxes

The casino industry provides significant dollars through wagering and admission taxes. Since inception through August, 2009, Indiana casinos have paid over $6.8 billion in wagering taxes and $1.2 billion in admission taxes.

 

Over $8.0 billion in taxes!

 

 

Wagering Tax

 

 

Wagering Tax Distribution

 

* In the case of Caesars Indiana, the host city's portion of the wagering tax is paid to Harrison County, as Harrison County is designated as the home dock of the riverboat.

The wagering tax is 22.5% of a casino's adjusted gross revenue, paid daily for casinos that cruise. For dockside casinos, a graduated tax scale is utilized (HB1001 (ss) effective 7/1/02):

< $25 million - 15%

$25 - 50 million - 20%

$50 - 75 million - 25%

$75 - 150 million - 30%

> $150 million - 35%

Wagering taxes are paid "off the top," before employees, vendors, operating costs and normal business taxes, etc. are paid.

The state of Indiana's portion of the wagering tax goes to the Build Indiana Fund for capital improvements throughout the state and to reduce the state auto excise tax.

 

HB1001 (ss), effective 7/1/02, provides revenue sharing for counties without riverboats. Distributions to host communities are capped at FY02 levels, and a $33 million per year Revenue Sharing Program is created for local Police and Fire Pension Municipal Server and Drinking Water Projects or additional property tax reduction.

 

I don't even mind the Banks for a casino.  The Banks of Queensgate!  :-D

Cincy needs to focus on priorities!   A new arena is not even close to being on that radar yet.   We may be the only ones even talking about this.   Unfortunately, USBank isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

The ideas on here are great, but I don't see BC waiting around for another decade until there is some pent up demand for a new state of the art arena while we have Cintas, The Shoe, USBank, and a rarely used gorgeous Cincy Gardens in Bond Hill.

 

An interesting model would be to look at Kansas City. They built a brand new arena w/o any Pro teams playing there.  I am curious if it makes money or not (I will follow up on this).  I mentioned this idea in passing once to a Cincinnatian and he said the city is too scarred by the Paul Brown fiasco to build an arena.  While certainly understandable, the big difference is the city would reap the benefits and see the profits. This could include NCAA tournament games, major concerts, pehaps a deal w/ the Blue Jackets to host 5  games a year.. Trust me, US Bank Arena is not attracting any halfway decent events whatsoever.  The city needs a new arena.

The link includes details on the Sprint Center in KC.  $275 MM price tag in 2007.  You see the list of of concerts they have hosted there...not happening at US Bank. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Center

 

 

 

Actually, Cincy has had almost all of those same concerts in the past year or two, with many of them being at US Bank.  My parents saw Elton John and Billy Joel there, as well the Eagles, and in 07 I saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers, so I don't think it's doing too terribly.

5/3 Arena is a tricky situation and I'm interested to see what they'll finally come up with as a solution.  From what I remember, Mike Thomas has said he isn't too keen on building an arena off-campus, or at least not very far.  That said, there really isn't any room to put a separate arena (BK and the football team won the corner spot for their practice fields by performing)?  US Bank could be used while a new arena is under construction and if the team is decent again they wouldn't have too much trouble selling out US Bank - it's only 1 or 2,000 more seats than 5/3rd, right?  I might be in favor of a larger arena that stands out over all of our smaller ones in the area but another losing team.

 

Casinos- is there a certain demographic that casinos appeal to the most?  I personally don't know a lot of younger people that gamble much and wonder where the trend is going.  I personally barely gamble (b/c I lose all of my money?) and the few casinos I've been to in the last couple years seem to be full of the older crowd (emotionless at the slot machines).  Just a thought.

>Casinos- is there a certain demographic that casinos appeal to the most?

 

Suckers.