part of it has to do with the fact that downtown real estate (everywhere) is more expensive.  It's also more expensive to develop therefor it can often be extremely difficult for developers to hit the price points a lot of the younger just starting out types want.  I think sometimes people forget just how low the cost of living is here.  I've heard many developers talk about how hard it is to develop quality properties and still get them in the area which people around here consider acceptable.  Which is why you see a lot of developments like the avenue district where they subsidize a good amount of "less expensive" properties (230-260k) with significantly higher properties.  And you have to remmeber that with abatements those 230-260k properties end up really reflecting an aproximately 170kish mortgage.  To get the cheaper properties you have to go into places like Grand Arcade, and Pointe at Gateway which are a little older and weren't necessarily built with modern needs in mind (i.e. larger closets, in-suite laundry, etc).  Not that there are ANYTHING wrong with those places, but those are the places you can find units in the mid 100's and sometimes cheaper (though you can also get much more expensive pads).  They are available, they just don't come with all the bells and whistles people want.

 

As far as the rental market goes, everyone knows there's a lack of one bedrooms.  they are trying to correct that.  But don't forget that 1 br's are inherrently more expensive than say a 2 br unit where you have a roommate.  That is the best way to go when you are starting out... that's the way I did it.  Most 1 br's downtown are in the 700 range.  You can find some cheaper smaller ones, but 700's is pretty common.  Wherein 2 br's are much larger units and can be had from 900 up, so you only end up paying $450-600 a peice depending on how big a place you want....

 

roommates are the way to go starting out.

^You don't have to answer... Just being a smartass.

 

Well at least you admit it.  I think "smug" might have been a better word.   

 

Also, while I am enthusiastic about recent developments too, the fact is that there are dead-spots along Euclid.  So I actually do not get your point about E.4th. 

 

I was not talking about E.4th.  I was talking about the stretch of Euclid Ave from Public Square to CSU.  Is E. 4th included in that stretch?  Yes.  Playhouse Square is included too. 

 

However, the word "stretch" should have indicated that I was not talking about just one specific zone. 

 

 

Yes, I added the word young.  I did so because of all the demographics downtown living appeals to, it currently has the least to offer young people in terms of living options.  Regardless of unit size, it's too weighted toward condos and toward the high end of the market.  Alas, the Huntington building is most appropriate for additional hi-price/hi-commitment units.  But once those are done the imbalance will be even more stark.  Apparently it isn't economical for any given (re)developer to create 1br apartments for people who haven't yet "made it."  But these are the very people who are most interested in downtown residential, and the people from whom downtown has the most to gain long term.  This may be one of those cases where pure market forces come up with results that don't make any sense when viewed from above.     

 

I agree with this.  I am not a real estate person either, but I think that it is generally younger people who are more interested in living downtown, where restaurants, sporting events, and bars are easily accessible (not taking anything away from the empty-nesters).

 

I do not know how to solve it.  I suppose it would be illegal to subsidize living for those who do not need it, maybe even a little immoral. 

 

Some of the apartments on E.4th are very modely priced (the Buckeye), so maybe it is plausible. 

 

part of it has to do with the fact that downtown real estate (everywhere) is more expensive. It's also more expensive to develop therefor it can often be extremely difficult for developers to hit the price points a lot of the younger just starting out types want. I think sometimes people forget just how low the cost of living is here. I've heard many developers talk about how hard it is to develop quality properties and still get them in the area which people around here consider acceptable. Which is why you see a lot of developments like the avenue district where they subsidize a good amount of "less expensive" properties (230-260k) with significantly higher properties. And you have to remmeber that with abatements those 230-260k properties end up really reflecting an aproximately 170kish mortgage. To get the cheaper properties you have to go into places like Grand Arcade, and Pointe at Gateway which are a little older and weren't necessarily built with modern needs in mind (i.e. larger closets, in-suite laundry, etc). Not that there are ANYTHING wrong with those places, but those are the places you can find units in the mid 100's and sometimes cheaper (though you can also get much more expensive pads). They are available, they just don't come with all the bells and whistles people want.

 

As far as the rental market goes, everyone knows there's a lack of one bedrooms. they are trying to correct that. But don't forget that 1 br's are inherrently more expensive than say a 2 br unit where you have a roommate. That is the best way to go when you are starting out... that's the way I did it. Most 1 br's downtown are in the 700 range. You can find some cheaper smaller ones, but 700's is pretty common. Wherein 2 br's are much larger units and can be had from 900 up, so you only end up paying $450-600 a peice depending on how big a place you want....

 

roommates are the way to go starting out.

 

Some of the oroginal lofts from the late 90's have been re-sold for $80-$100K.  The only reason I know that is because I asked a real estate agent to see how downtown was doing appreciation/depreciation-wise when we were considering buying our place, and most of what is just now starting to be re-sold were the "original" loft units.

Yes, I added the word young.  I did so because of all the demographics downtown living appeals to, it currently has the least to offer young people in terms of living options.  Regardless of unit size, it's too weighted toward condos and toward the high end of the market.  Alas, the Huntington building is most appropriate for additional hi-price/hi-commitment units.  But once those are done the imbalance will be even more stark.  Apparently it isn't economical for any given (re)developer to create 1br apartments for people who haven't yet "made it."  But these are the very people who are most interested in downtown residential, and the people from whom downtown has the most to gain long term.  This may be one of those cases where pure market forces come up with results that don't make any sense when viewed from above.     

 

We need a studio and one bedroom rental increase along with some generic condos.  However, downtown Cleveland is not at a point where it needs to start building new residential construction.  When that happens you'll start to see generic or "vanilla" apartments.

 

Downtown or urban living doesn't always equal "young"

 

These are wonderful buildings that deserve to be properly brought back to life and a low budget job, will me low budget and cheap.  Why go through all the work to get funding only to do a half-assed job?  These apartments are unique and you wont see that elsewhere.  That "unique" design makes the apartments that much more expensive and desirable.  And like the ECTP, once you open up an old building you never know what is going to come out.  So there are extra cost in preserving or replacing original fixtures, plumbing, lighting and adding modern day convenience like cable, security systems, wireless, etc.

 

In addition, high-end and luxury homes attract business residents can walk to or order delivery from within a 10 block radius.  And in order to make those residents feel special those shops will go the extra mile to make sure their establishments are up to snuff.  They also count on customer coming because they are "the best" at what they offer and "hype, exclusivity  unparalleled customer service" leads to more sales.

 

It's a very complicated tango.

I think sometimes people forget just how low the cost of living is here.  I've heard many developers talk about how hard it is to develop quality properties and still get them in the area which people around here consider acceptable. 

 

That also part of the problem with property virgins, they see stuff on TV and think that is how they should live - INSTANTLY. 

 

Instead they could easily buy an older home and spend the money to upgrade it gradually and come out with a better quality home.

I for one would like to see some bulk, even if it is generic.  Bottom line is we need people, and now more than ever people don't necessarily have money.  This philosophy may not fit well with the cost of historical rehab... so be it.  There should be more subsidy for that work anyway.  It's not like we don't already have a few "soviet" style high rises in Cleveland.  Would we be willing to look at one if it opened the door for thousands of new feet on downtown streets?  If we want a jump in population downtown, we need a jump in options there for average people.  Many average people aren't going to pay "house with a yard and a workshop" money to live downtown, so the price on the typical downtown unit has got to come down at some point.  Adding bulk to the market should accomplish this. 

I for one would like to see some bulk, even if it is generic.  Bottom line is we need people, and now more than ever people don't necessarily have money.  This philosophy may not fit well with the cost of historical rehab... so be it.  There should be more subsidy for that work anyway.  It's not like we don't already have a few "soviet" style high rises in Cleveland.  Would we be willing to look at one if it opened the door for thousands of new feet on downtown streets?  If we want a jump in population downtown, we need a jump in options there for average people.  Many average people aren't going to pay "house with a yard and a workshop" money to live downtown, so the price on the typical downtown unit has got to come down at some point.  Adding bulk to the market should accomplish this. 

 

I echo your sentiments.  For example, I would want to live downtown for all of the entertainment.  While the bells and whistles are nice, the cost of a place is what I look at. 

 

Also, I say bring the masses in first.  Once us proles start populating more of the downtown scene, the demand for more high-end apartments will increase.

Is there demand for that?

 

On a personal note: I wouldn't want to live downtown if it wasn't in an interesting place like a Huntington building. I thought the downtown renting options available when I was last looking for a place were pretty affordable. I just liked the close neighborhood options I looked at (Tremont/Ohio City/Shaker Square) better. In fact, I'm only paying $50 less per month where I am now than my top downtown choice. There were openings in every downtown apartment building I considered.

I for one would like to see some bulk, even if it is generic. Bottom line is we need people, and now more than ever people don't necessarily have money. This philosophy may not fit well with the cost of historical rehab... so be it. There should be more subsidy for that work anyway. It's not like we don't already have a few "soviet" style high rises in Cleveland. Would we be willing to look at one if it opened the door for thousands of new feet on downtown streets? If we want a jump in population downtown, we need a jump in options there for average people. Many average people aren't going to pay "house with a yard and a workshop" money to live downtown, so the price on the typical downtown unit has got to come down at some point. Adding bulk to the market should accomplish this.

 

327, I'm not sure what price point you're looking for, but the Perry-Payne building has a 1 bed 1 bath for $139K.  Have you tried looking around in some of the WHD buildings? 

[glow=red,2,300]Is there demand for that? [/glow]

 

ding..ding..ding.  No more calls, we have a winner!

1.  I have personally helped completely hijack the OFFICE DEVELOPMENT NEWS thread, I apologize, but let's get this back on topic.

 

2.  And because I'm a last word type (:)), when I have my friends over from Chicago, New York, and Boston, and they see my place and ask how much I pay they almost crap themselves.  Our downtown housing is pretty cheap relative to a lot of cities... and there are cheaper alternatives downtown you just have to look around.  For example you could live in heritage suites which are efficiencies above the downtown YMCA, but they are only about 400 a month I believe and include heat and water.  there are options... but they aren't going to be right smack in the middle of everything.

^That's what I was going to say, living in downtown nashville (with a very reasonable cost of living) I am paying $1500 a month for a 2 bedroom.  That's a good deal.  It's ridiculous-my friend in NYC is paying $2700 for a subsidized 380 sq ft efficiency.

I disagree...Euclid Avenue does not need any more 9-5 government/financial institutions taking up prime storefront/street level spaces.   

 

I'm with you in spirit but that's kinda what this building is.  It has retail, but mostly facing inward not outward.  Even if the rotunda becomes a club, that corner isn't ideal for nightlife.   

We all might agree on that point, but what developer gets the building, will dictate what goes in that building. 

 

Even if a business buys or leases the space on Euclid, there is still plenty of space for retail.  so lets not get to hyped up over what "could" or "should" be placed there.

 

hell there is space in existing building that aren't involved in any construction that could start to house everyday (see 327 we agree on things) needs in downtown.

 

Now here is the bigger question. Who here, who currently lives downtown or is a potential downtown resident, is making their voice heard about what type of business they would like to see come online in downtown?

 

Be apart of the change.  It's not enough to say "they should" but you have to do your part.  It not significant to just call or write but it does get a retailers interest when they look to where they can improve and increase market share.

Now here is the bigger question. Who here, who currently lives downtown or is a potential downtown resident, is making their voice heard about what type of business they would like to see come online in downtown?

:wave:

Now here is the bigger question. Who here, who currently lives downtown or is a potential downtown resident, is making their voice heard about what type of business they would like to see come online in downtown?

:wave:

Outside of you Mr. Mayor!

Bang the drum of the DCA.  They have people working on everything from "types" of tennants to trying to get specific tennants.

Bang the drum of the DCA.  They have people working on everything from "types" of tennants to trying to get specific tennants.

 

Thank you.  Now 327, and anyone one else, there is your chance to be heard.

Well, I'm considering moving downtown in late 2009.  Honestly, though, I couldn't care less what businesses are there as long as there's something, anything, that can fill a lot of these vacancies.  A Giant Eagle, movie theater, and Borders would of course be nice.

Well, I'm considering moving downtown in late 2009.  Honestly, though, I couldn't care less what businesses are there as long as there's something, anything, that can fill a lot of these vacancies.  A Giant Eagle, movie theater, and Borders would of course be nice.

 

But what are you doing to encourage a business to move there?

 

"I couldn't care" is exactly why there are no business there NOW.

 

PS.  that is an observation not a personal attack - I just want to put that out there.

I don't think specifics are the issue right now, and as far as types it would be the same types of amenities present in other downtowns, or other mainstay commercial areas.  We aren't reinventing the wheel here. 

MTS, lay off. This thread is already going off-topic as it is.

 

I think the discussion is relevant and you posted this after I edited my post.

 

Bottom line, people need to get involved and be apart of the change they want.

A Giant Eagle, movie theater, and Borders would of course be nice.

 

dave's has two groceries near the center of downtown.  not to mention the five or six specialty groceries that have popped up.  you might not be able to walk to get your groceries.  but there are numerous places that serve the downtown population.

 

tower city has a movie theater.  sure it can be a little crazy on a weekend night, but honestly, so can valley view.  gordon square theater is opening in a year. 

 

a borders would be nice, okay.  but the cleveland public library is right there, it's nicer and bigger than any borders, and its free.  if you really want to buy a book, go to visible voice in tremont. 

 

so there you have it, a grocery, a movie theater, and a bookstore, all within city limits.   

 

A Giant Eagle, movie theater, and Borders would of course be nice.

 

dave's has two groceries near the center of downtown. not to mention the five or six specialty groceries that have popped up. you might not be able to walk to get your groceries. but there are numerous places that serve the downtown population.

 

tower city has a movie theater. sure it can be a little crazy on a weekend night, but honestly, so can valley view. gordon square theater is opening in a year.

 

a borders would be nice, okay. but the cleveland public library is right there, it's nicer and bigger than any borders, and its free. if you really want to buy a book, go to visible voice in tremont.

 

so there you have it, a grocery, a movie theater, and a bookstore, all within city limits.

 

 

I think you made the point for him.  You list places as far off as W.65th.  We are talking about downtown amenitie.

 

Also, I highly doubt Valley View gets as crazy as Tower City theaters.

Here's one that hasn't been mentioned....Police.

 

There should be police all over downtown.  Every human beings first instinct is safety.  Please spare me the "I have never had a problem downtown" rhetoric, for I have not either.  But the perception is that downtown is not the safest place.  And if you want to attract more people to move downtown, having a more visible police presence would help. 

Here's one that hasn't been mentioned....Police.

 

There should be police all over downtown. Every human beings first instinct is safety. Please spare me the "I have never had a problem downtown" rhetoric, for I have not either. But the perception is that downtown is not the safest place. And if you want to attract more people to move downtown, having a more visible police presence would help.

 

I concur.  Although there is apparently a "downtown" unit, it says so on their cruisers.  They also had mounties out around the square until it got cold out.  The DCA people also help... I see more of them at night than I do police... I almost never see police downtown at night.  The city's budget is balanced, so that's a hopeful sign.

Here's one that hasn't been mentioned....Police.

 

There should be police all over downtown. Every human beings first instinct is safety. Please spare me the "I have never had a problem downtown" rhetoric, for I have not either. But the perception is that downtown is not the safest place. And if you want to attract more people to move downtown, having a more visible police presence would help.

 

I concur. Although there is apparently a "downtown" unit, it says so on their cruisers. They also had mounties out around the square until it got cold out. The DCA people also help... I see more of them at night than I do police... I almost never see police downtown at night. The city's budget is balanced, so that's a hopeful sign.

 

DCA is awesome.  One of their cars sits outside my front door on a regular basis.

Althought it does not qualify as downtown, ice skating is being brought back to UC.

Pali - seriously??? If there was a cop on every corner that would tell me

A) Downtown is so dangerous they need to be there

B) I shouldn't be in this area.

If there is a lack of police presence downtown its probably b/c they don't need to be there.  Why have our tax dollars being spent on cops to sit around doing nothing...........just so you can feel safe? Next 

Althought it does not qualify as downtown, ice skating is being brought back to UC.

 

yes its been discussed in the UC thread.  ;)

Pali - seriously??? If there was a cop on every corner that would tell me

A) Downtown is so dangerous they need to be there

B) I shouldn't be in this area.

If there is a lack of police presence downtown its probably b/c they don't need to be there.  Why have our tax dollars being spent on cops to sit around doing nothing...........just so you can feel safe? Next 

 

I don't agree.  I think what palijandro7 is saying he/she would like to physically "see" more cops.  He may be under the impression that physical sighting makes people feel safe and can combate the perception that downtown is unsafe.

I've heard residents in Fairview Park wonder if their suburb isn't safe anymore because the Giant Eagle at Fairview Shopping Center has an off-duty, uniformed police officer working there as store security.

 

If police are stationed around downtown, suburbanites coming downtown might question downtown's safety. But people with that kind of thinking processes probably already think downtown is a war zone anyway. I wonder if they even come downtown....

A Giant Eagle, movie theater, and Borders would of course be nice.

 

dave's has two groceries near the center of downtown. not to mention the five or six specialty groceries that have popped up. you might not be able to walk to get your groceries. but there are numerous places that serve the downtown population.

 

tower city has a movie theater. sure it can be a little crazy on a weekend night, but honestly, so can valley view. gordon square theater is opening in a year.

 

a borders would be nice, okay. but the cleveland public library is right there, it's nicer and bigger than any borders, and its free. if you really want to buy a book, go to visible voice in tremont.

 

so there you have it, a grocery, a movie theater, and a bookstore, all within city limits.

 

 

I think you made the point for him. You list places as far off as W.65th. We are talking about downtown amenitie.

 

Also, I highly doubt Valley View gets as crazy as Tower City theaters.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about...

Daves - W.25th Street

Avenue Supermarket (and this is a full service grocery store) - Reserve Square E. 12th and Chester

Constantino's Market - W. 9th

(2) CVS's

Tower City Movie Theatre

Borders Express in Tower City

Brooks Brothers in Tower City

Johnston & Murphy in Tower City

Cleveland Public Library (where you can get all the latest CD's and Movies for free, burn them and take them back) - E. 6th and Superior

 

Downtown Cleveland may not be Manhattan or the Chicago Loop... but it is hardly devoid of ammenities.  I know, I have lived down here for nearly 6 years, me and my fiance have 1 car and she uses it for work, which means I basically don't have a car... and I get by just fine.  If you are referring to the Gordon Square Movie Theatre with your W. 65th comment, he was referring to an independent movie theatre.  I don't know many downtowns that have an Indy theatre in them. I'd actually be willing to bet that there are probably only 2 or 3 such cities in the country that have a downtown Independent Theatre.

 

The fact that you're comparing the Cleveland Public Library and a Borders Express to a Borders is ludicrious.  And I don't just want a specialty, expensive grocerymart - I want a Giant Eagle.  And regarding the Tower City theater, well, let's just say it's not the most pleasant of places though perhaps any other movie theaters downtown would have similar troubles

And I don't just want a specialty, expensive grocerymart - I want a Giant Eagle. 

 

Have you been in or shopped at the Avenue District Grocery store?

The fact that you're comparing the Cleveland Public Library and a Borders Express to a Borders is ludicrious. And I don't just want a specialty, expensive grocerymart - I want a Giant Eagle. And regarding the Tower City theater, well, let's just say it's not the most pleasant of places though perhaps any other movie theaters downtown would have similar troubles

 

It's all about perspective.  I, too, prefer Giant Eagle, so I go to the one on W. 117th.  However, the time it takes me to get there is no more than the time it took me to get to the Giant Eagle on Chagrin when I lived in Shaker Heights....  Additionally, if I don't want to go to Tower City, it takes me less time to get to the Valley View theatre than it did to get to Severance or Mayfield when I lived in Shaker.....  So, no, you can't walk everywhere, but the drive to places is, on the whole, shorter.

The grocery store in reserve square is not a "full service" grocery.  They do not even have a scale to weigh produce.

The fact that you're comparing the Cleveland Public Library and a Borders Express to a Borders is ludicrious.  And I don't just want a specialty, expensive grocerymart - I want a Giant Eagle.  And regarding the Tower City theater, well, let's just say it's not the most pleasant of places though perhaps any other movie theaters downtown would have similar troubles

 

It's all about perspective.  I, too, prefer Giant Eagle, so I go to the one on W. 117th.  However, the time it takes me to get there is no more than the time it took me to get to the Giant Eagle on Chagrin when I lived in Shaker Heights....  Additionally, if I don't want to go to Tower City, it takes me less time to get to the Valley View theatre than it did to get to Severance or Mayfield when I lived in Shaker.....  So, no, you can't walk everywhere, but the drive to places is, on the whole, shorter.

 

doc beat me to it. Just because you live downtown, doesn't preclude you from leaving the confines of downtown to find an amenity. I highly doubt you have a Borders / Giant Eagle / Clothing Store all within walking distance from any suburban location (technically I do, all clustered together in an area 1 mile away, in but hey, location location location, baby ;-) )

 

Also, how many major downtowns (like a nyc, or Chicago) have full size supermarkets like what you're describing. Seems to me that during my jaunts in NYC, I saw a lot of the same specialty/ high priced grocers, but nothing equivalent to a Giant Eagle. Maybe I missed it, but I'm thinking the cost premium placed on space would preclude a lot of that. 

This is a strange argument.  One of the posters asked what people wanted downtown, and I gave three answers.  Perhaps New York doesn't have Giant Eagles on every corner, but for me personally, I would like to have one downtown.

 

I'm not saying what's most economically or pratically feasible, just what I'd like.  What's the issue here??

The grocery store in reserve square is not a "full service" grocery. They do not even have a scale to weigh produce.

:roll:

 

it's a very large grocery store, with everything a giant eagle has... except apparently scales to weigh your produce.  my point was that there is a grocery store downtown and not just a constantino's type market. Sometimes I walk to this place and do all my shopping.  Sometimes I drive to Dave's which is a whopping .8 miles from my home, which is probably closer than most suburban people are to their grocery store.

 

TBideon, I don't have a problem, you are free to wish for whatever you like  :)

 

I was just getting a little annoyed at a couple people who keep acting like there is absolutely no way for a downtown resident to get the things they need down here... Not. True.

I was just getting a little annoyed at a couple people who keep acting like there is absolutely no way for a downtown resident to get the things they need down here... Not. True.

 

Preach on!

Don't forget about Steelyard Commons. Even if you don't care for Wal-mart you still have Target, Best Buy etc. Granted it's not downtown but it's still pretty close.

The grocery store in reserve square is not a "full service" grocery. They do not even have a scale to weigh produce.

it's a very large grocery store, with everything a giant eagle has... except apparently scales to weigh your produce.

 

The selection there is very poor in terms of offering different brands or a variety.  They might have 10 lean cuisines vs. 50 at a bigger grocery, or 1 type of canned tomatoes instead of 15 to choose from.  There is no olive bar, I don't recall a deli counter or a bakery with fresh baked goods, you can't even weigh a salad at the salad bar (which is a poor salad bar compared to ones in GE or Heinen's, the ingredients are old, cheap and dry most of the time, they don't even have balsamic vinegar).  And forget about an organic section or the "nature's basket" section at GE, which is where I buy a lot of products when I shop there, which has organic and/or natural products including H&B items, organic wine, environmentally friendly soaps, etc. 

I don't think avenue supermarket compares favorably with what would be considered full-service in the burbs, not at all.  Still room for improvement in groceries, but between them and constantinos downtown is not without service.  It just isn't competitive.  I'm guessing larger cities, which also lack giant eagles downtown, have more specialty produce and meat places to make up for what their groceries lack.

 

As for BB and J&M... my belt broke one day downtown and I needed one pretty desparately.  I went to J&M in tower city and got mugged for $75.00.  Cheapest belt they had.  That is not a realistic shopping option for many people I know.  I have browsed Brooks Brothers and they seemed to have similar misconceptions about the economy. 

 

During construction, I wanted to buy a shirt from one of the oppressed Euclid Avenue tailors.  They wouldn't sell me one.  The minimum purchase was four (or two in February for some reason).  Even with the cheapest material they had, the prices were not competitive.  I checked out two places, same basic deal.  I'm sure the shirts would have been of superior quality and fit.  But theirs is not my market segment, and given the cost of education it may not ever be.

 

Tower city theater isn't that bad, but unfortunately due to bathroom conditions it should be condemned.  I'm not a stickler about bathrooms either-- this one was truly shocking.  Have some freaking pride, FCE.  Why doesn't Playhouse Square show indy films once in a while?

 

I maintain that lack of reasonable retail options for average people is a severe impediment to downtown residential growth.  Requiring a drive, however short, violates such a basic priciple of the downtown living concept that the contribution from those options is limited.

I maintain that lack of reasonable retail options for average people is a severe impediment to downtown residential growth. Requiring a drive, however short, violates such a basic priciple of the downtown living concept that the contribution from those options is limited.

 

I think a lot of this is due to the chicken/egg problem, unfortunately. Neither side (potential residents or potential retailers) often times wants to make that first risky move.

I maintain that lack of reasonable retail options for average people is a severe impediment to downtown residential growth. Requiring a drive, however short, violates such a basic priciple of the downtown living concept that the contribution from those options is limited.

 

I think a lot of this is due to the chicken/egg problem, unfortunately. Neither side (potential residents or potential retailers) often times wants to make that first risky move.

 

To me, that's the signal for govenment to step in.  Downtown is so close to taking off.  My position is still: do what must be done.   

I maintain that lack of reasonable retail options for average people is a severe impediment to downtown residential growth. Requiring a drive, however short, violates such a basic priciple of the downtown living concept that the contribution from those options is limited.

 

I think a lot of this is due to the chicken/egg problem, unfortunately. Neither side (potential residents or potential retailers) often times wants to make that first risky move.

 

To me, that's the signal for govenment to step in. Downtown is so close to taking off. My position is still: do what must be done.

 

Yeah. It's an interesting situation. I think it honestly takes someone who is really willing to go for it and build downtown into a real urban community. Which was one of the reasons I was excited about Bob Stark .. I really think he had it right when he wanted to build a massive project all at once and bring the jumpstart all at once instead of dragging things out.

 

I think something needs to happen at some point to CHANGE downtown into something more than it is because otherwise it's just going to be this self-perpetuating cycle. People will keep blaming something for not wanting to invest in downtown and make it something bigger, more urbane than it is now, whether it's retailers or residents.

I maintain that lack of reasonable retail options for average people is a severe impediment to downtown residential growth.  Requiring a drive, however short, violates such a basic priciple of the downtown living concept that the contribution from those options is limited.

 

I think a lot of this is due to the chicken/egg problem, unfortunately. Neither side (potential residents or potential retailers) often times wants to make that first risky move.

 

To me, that's the signal for govenment to step in.  Downtown is so close to taking off.  My position is still: do what must be done.   

 

As much as a shopper as I am (AKA HSIC), I wouldn't want a store to come here if it has to be propped up by the city/state. 

 

That to me would not bode well for the store (it would not be a flagship) as store buyers would already "think" that that store itself cannot be self contained.

 

There has to be a market in place before we see the return of the big boys.  Michican Avenue, Madison Ave, and Rodeo Drive didn't happen overnight.

 

As stated earlier, there is a market currently for smaller discount stores (TJ Maxx, Marshalls, etc.) however, those stores alone will not garner enough foot traffic to keep them open or they will not be unique enough to make consumer change where they currently shop.

I wish the Rego brothers would have done this instead of trying (unsuccessfully) to move into the suburbs, where they are losing ground rapidly.  A locally owned but big-time grocery would have been great for downtown.  A lot of people (like me) who come in weekly or bi-weekly to shop at the WSM would love to have a grocery here so you could get everything done in one place, as it is I have to make 2 trips.

Stark's not the only one who could do that. 

 

I don't think there's really that much missing from downtown, but the things that are missing are so egregious they make the situation seem worse than it is.  My own personal needs and preferences are not the end-all-be-all of development priorities... but I can't see why we'd prioritize $1000 purses over normally-priced underwear, if we're trying to build a residential base.  The purse seems to justify a trip to Beachwood so much more than the underwear.