Stark's not the only one who could do that. 

 

I don't think there's really that much missing from downtown, but the things that are missing are so egregious they make the situation seem worse than it is.  My own personal needs and preferences are not the end-all-be-all of development priorities... but I can't see why we'd prioritize $1000 purses over normally-priced underwear, if we're trying to build a residential base.  The purse seems to justify a trip to Beachwood so much more than the underwear.

 

Speak for yourself!  LOL

Stark's not the only one who could do that. 

 

You're right. He isn't.

 

But he was the first one with the vision big enough to see beyond the naysayers and do something Cleveland doesn't have. Unfortunately, it didn't work out (for the time being), but if it's anything that Cleveland needs, it's vision. And that goes for any city, any sector of the economy, any business. Without vision, you go nowhere, and without big vision, everything can be so piecemeal instead of creating something truly special and unique.

Stark's not the only one who could do that.

 

I don't think there's really that much missing from downtown, but the things that are missing are so egregious they make the situation seem worse than it is. My own personal needs and preferences are not the end-all-be-all of development priorities... but I can't see why we'd prioritize $1000 purses over normally-priced underwear, if we're trying to build a residential base. The purse seems to justify a trip to Beachwood so much more than the underwear.

 

Speak for yourself!   LOL

 

You know what I mean... downtown residents need a place to get mundane staple goods, things the average person is likely to need often.  Cheap office attire comes to mind.  Prestige stores and items are of secondary importance until the basics are in place.

Stark's not the only one who could do that. 

 

I don't think there's really that much missing from downtown, but the things that are missing are so egregious they make the situation seem worse than it is.  My own personal needs and preferences are not the end-all-be-all of development priorities... but I can't see why we'd prioritize $1000 purses over normally-priced underwear, if we're trying to build a residential base.  The purse seems to justify a trip to Beachwood so much more than the underwear.

 

Speak for yourself!  LOL

 

You know what I mean... downtown residents need a place to get mundane staple goods, things the average person is likely to need often.  Cheap office attire comes to mind.  Prestige stores and items are of secondary importance until the basics are in place.

Put a stake in my heart already!  >:D

I think everybody has something they won't buy cheap versions of, even when times are tough.  For some it's clothes, others coffee or beer, whatever.  But mass market stuff exists for a reason.  We still live in that kind of age.  Maybe it's always been that kind of age.  People will find their niche stuff.  So the more niche stuff we have in the general area, the better.  But the everyman stuff is foundational and downtown had a lot more of it 10-15 years ago. I think retail like we had in the early 90s would would bring an even bigger wave of residential, including that new residential skyline along Euclid that's supposedly brewing. 

I think everybody has something they won't buy cheap versions of, even when times are tough.  For some it's clothes, others coffee or beer, whatever.  But mass market stuff exists for a reason.  We still live in that kind of age.  Maybe it's always been that kind of age.  People will find their niche stuff.  So the more niche stuff we have in the general area, the better.  But the everyman stuff is foundational and downtown had a lot more of it 10-15 years ago. I think retail like we had in the early 90s would would bring an even bigger wave of residential, including that new residential skyline along Euclid that's supposedly brewing. 

 

See that is the problem.  in the past, if you notice, we had lots of stores.  Higbees, May Co., Halles, Galleria, Tower City and street stores, however we did not have the population immediate local population to support those stores 7 days a week 10 AM to 8 PM.

 

If we did, they would still be there.

I think everybody has something they won't buy cheap versions of, even when times are tough. For some it's clothes, others coffee or beer, whatever. But mass market stuff exists for a reason. We still live in that kind of age. Maybe it's always been that kind of age. People will find their niche stuff. So the more niche stuff we have in the general area, the better. But the everyman stuff is foundational and downtown had a lot more of it 10-15 years ago. I think retail like we had in the early 90s would would bring an even bigger wave of residential, including that new residential skyline along Euclid that's supposedly brewing.

 

See that is the problem. in the past, if you notice, we had lots of stores. Higbees, May Co., Halles, Galleria, Tower City and street stores, however we did not have the population immediate local population to support those stores 7 days a week 10 AM to 8 PM.

 

If we did, they would still be there.

 

I agree. I think that, in order for downtown to really change, there needs to be a fundamental shift in thinking, in terms of people supporting the urban core instead of bashing it. I don't think Cleveland has that as much as it needs to right now. I think the more we see that, the more we'll see Cleveland thrive and grow into a truly urban environment.

hey as long as everything in sight of downtown keeps getting renovated and redeveloped for residential, which it is, we will see stores start to come back.

hey as long as everything in sight of downtown keeps getting renovated and redeveloped for residential, which it is, we will see stores start to come back.

 

Bingo!

 

See that is the problem.  in the past, if you notice, we had lots of stores.  Higbees, May Co., Halles, Galleria, Tower City and street stores, however we did not have the population immediate local population to support those stores 7 days a week 10 AM to 8 PM.

 

If we did, they would still be there.

 

Not so sure about that, MTS.  Despite the growth of urban living, the shopping mall, and now lifestyle center, is still sapping all big cities.  Philadelphia, with a very robust Center City resditential base (100K and growing), is down to only 1 major department store: Wanamaker/Lord & Taylor/Macys (there is a K-Mart and a Burlington Coat, but...)... 2 years ago Chicago, with probably the #2 downtown in America, lost famed old downtown palace, Carson Pirie Scott, to the burbs; and from what I hear, sales have really been off at the Loop's grand old Macy's since they came in and dumped the famous homegrown Marshall-Field name.  So both Philly and Chicago despite having huge downtown residential pops, are having issues holding grand, high-end dept stores, too.

 

See that is the problem.  in the past, if you notice, we had lots of stores.  Higbees, May Co., Halles, Galleria, Tower City and street stores, however we did not have the population immediate local population to support those stores 7 days a week 10 AM to 8 PM.

 

If we did, they would still be there.

 

Not so sure about that, MTS.  Despite the growth of urban living, the shopping mall, and now lifestyle center, is still sapping all big cities.  Philadelphia, with a very robust Center City resditential base (100K and growing), is down to only 1 major department store: Wanamaker/Lord & Taylor/Macys (there is a K-Mart and a Burlington Coat, but...)... 2 years ago Chicago, with probably the #2 downtown in America, lost famed old downtown palace, Carson Pirie Scott, to the burbs; and from what I hear, sales have really been off at the Loop's grand old Macy's since they came in and dumped the famous homegrown Marshall-Field name.  So both Philly and Chicago despite having huge downtown residential pops, are having issues holding grand, high-end dept stores, too.

Chicago and Philadelphia have had establishted downtown RESIDENTIAL popultions since the mid 70s.  Downtown Cleveland didn't enter the ballgame until the early 80s.  This isn't a discussion based on "department stores" in the center of the City. 

 

You're describing two different scenarios.   

[*]Cleveland not have an adequate downtown residential base OR adequate retailers period.

[*]Chicago and Philadelphia losing stores based on retail decisions/market consolidation.

 

Cleveland does not have stores because they do not have the populaton, demand or need at this moment.  I'm speaking in terms of just having 24 CVS, Rite Aid stores; a furniture store like West Elm or CB2; a GAP, American Outfiter, American Eagle; JCPenney's, Kohl's, Kmart/Sears nor are there multiple Barbers/beauty shops; doctors (eye, ear, foot, general practitioner) that have offices open after hours or on weekends.  Lastly we have very few mid level retaturants/cafe's/bistro's.  Lastly, we need some activities, that will being teenagers who can't afford eat out or shop downtown everyday, like a putt-putt course, volleyball, baseball, basketball, x-games (thats where it's at).

 

Chicago has TWO Macy's, a Bloomingdales and a dedicated home store, a mens and womens Saks, Neiman-Marcus along with flag ship general merchandisers.  In addition, that have high End/Luxury retailers on a Near the MM.  In the loop that have Macy's and Sears.  Those stores are not going to close.

 

Due to the selection/mix of stores on or near the MM, other stores have entered the market stores like Marshalls or unique retail ventures like the Hershey's store.

 

Philly has Macy's although severly reduced and they lost Strawbridge and Clothiers.  However, they have an immediate poplulation to support the many retailers on Market, Locust, Broad street and stores in Liberty Place.

 

The Macy's in CC is right sized for the market, yet the consumers have plenty of choices outside of a department store.

 

IIRC, Strawbridge& Clothiers & Wannamkers became Hechts (now Macy's).  L&T just occupied the S/C space when they made an attempt to enter the Philly market.

 

So you see, we're talking about two different things.

 

 

Chicago has TWO Macy's, a Bloomingdales and a dedicated home store, a mens and womens Saks, Neiman-Marcus along with flag ship general merchandisers.  In addition, that have high End/Luxury retailers on a Near the MM.  In the loop that have Macy's and Sears.  Those stores are not going to close.

 

You forgot Nordstrom :-o.  Carson Pirie is a glorified JC Penney, and through ownership changes, that beautiful downtown store was a dump inside quite honestly, the owners didn't take care of it.  Lord & Taylor also closed at Water Tower but are still in the burbs, which is too bad because the new owners seem to be trying to bring it back to it's former glory.  It's now that awful Amercian Girl Doll store.

 

I thought there was a Forever 21 in TC??  They have cheap crap, including men's clothes.  There used to be a men's store in the hyatt arcade that had basics...did it close?

^Now you're mixing apples 'n oranges, MTS.  I was only reacting to your statement that our Big 3 department stores would still be around if we had the downtown population of today.  I doubt that; maybe 1 but certainly not all 3.  You're talking about Philly's other specialty stores which Cleveland has in Tower City and can have more along Euclid.  Again, I just think the day of the big downtown palace department store is over.  Even Philly's surviving 1 -- Macy's, has been downsized to a main floor and a mezzanine; down from 10 floors at one time, the upper 9 of which have been converted to offices.  We're talking about 2 different things.

 

^Now you're mixing apples 'n oranges, MTS.  I was only reacting to your statement that our Big 3 department stores would still be around if we had the downtown population of today.  I doubt that; maybe 1 but certainly not all 3.  You're talking about Philly's other specialty stores which Cleveland has in Tower City and can have more along Euclid.  Again, I just think the day of the big downtown palace department store is over.  Even Philly's surviving 1 -- Macy's, has been downsized to a main floor and a mezzanine; down from 10 floors at one time, the upper 9 of which have been converted to offices.  We're talking about 2 different things.

 

 

I see what you mean, however, my INITIAL comment wasn't limited to department stores but to retail in general.  ;)  Also the stores that Philly has in free standing stores, Cleveland does not have.  There are alot of fun and hip stores in Philly that appeal to 20 & 30 something shoppers.

 

I don't think Cleveland would have three stores downtown because of industry consolidation unless one was to enter the market.  I strongly believe that, if May Co had a OPERATING store in Downtown Cleveland in 2006, I feel we would have a middle of the road Macy's downtown EXACTLY like the downtown Philly store.

 

Dillard's is a middle level boring store and Clevelanders were accustomed to fine items in Halle's and Higbee's and Nordstrom or Bloomingdales would have to go into that space.

 

Retail has changed from the 70's when you went to a department store to buy everything from clothing, records, cards, shoes, beds, Audio & Video equipment, luggage, appliances, fabric, have a meal at a restaurant, etc.  Many brands that had "in store" boutiques in department stores up until the 70's now have free standing store. 

 

Outside of NYC & Chicago, most older department stores have reduced space to the lower selling floors since the selling space required when built is not needed today.  Most department stores built today are three, possibly four floor boxes.  Example see beachwood, Lenox, Pentagon City, King of Prussia, or either of the Texas Galleria mall anchor department stores.

 

With the introduction of the Internet you don't have to "introduce" your product IN a department store to take advantage of the department store marketing machine or brand strenght in order to cover distribution and monitor sales or share profit.

I don't know many downtowns that have an Indy theatre in them. I'd actually be willing to bet that there are probably only 2 or 3 such cities in the country that have a downtown Independent Theatre.

 

 

Well both independent cinema and downtowns are both difficult to define, but..... Columbus has the Arena Grand downtown, which is run by the Drexler folks.  It appears to have a line-up similar to Shaker Square.  Downtown Chicago has the Siskel (of Siskel & Ebert) Film Center (similar to Cleveland's Cinematheque).  Downtown Sarasota has the Burns Court Cinema and Minneapolis has an indie called the St. Anthony Main Theater.  This of course, does not even consider arts-intensive cities like San Fran, Seattle, Portland, & Austin.

great to hear from you, guv.  your insight is worth a million bucks!

 

but what exactly do you mean by "arts-intensive cities"  :?  :wink:  :?

Pali - seriously??? If there was a cop on every corner that would tell me

A) Downtown is so dangerous they need to be there

B) I shouldn't be in this area.

If there is a lack of police presence downtown its probably b/c they don't need to be there.  Why have our tax dollars being spent on cops to sit around doing nothing...........just so you can feel safe? Next 

 

I completely disagree.  Whether it is true or not, many suburbanites fear downtown bc they think it is dangerous (it made CQ Press's top 12 I think again).  If you fill downtown with cops, these fears would lessen.

 

Regarding your idea that a lot of cops creates a perception of danger, I have lived in Italy and there are cops EVERYWHERE.  From the Guardia di Finanza, the carabinieri, la polizia, etc, you cannot go 100 feet without seeing them. 

 

Does this make the Italian citizens feel less safe?  NO WAY.  In fact, due to a recent upswing in pick-pocketing and petty theft, Berlusconi brought in the national guard.  Accoring to your logic, the law-abiding citizens must have been hiding the women and children with the on-set of the national guard.  Of course, this was not the case.  Instead, they welcomed law and order with open arms. 

 

Apologies for getting off topic, so I'll cease with my argument about the need for a heightened police presence downtown.  :police:

I've lived downtown for almost 2 yrs.  Not once have my suburban friends or family mentioned anything about Cleveland needing more police downtown.  Also there's more police downtown than one might know.  Ever hear of undercover cops???? I know some of the force that position themselves on rooftops watching for criminals stealing cars and commiting other crimes.  Compare Cleveland to other major cities in the United States, not Italy. 

also check your facts CQ's rankings were for the whole city, NOT downtown. 

I have to disagree with some of these posts.  Downtown Cleveland desperately needs some kind of visible police force at night.  I'm a relatively big guy but even I get a bit nervous and extra vigilant (is that the right word?) when leaving work late at night and walking to Tower City alone, more so than I would think I should.

I agree with palijandro-- more visible police presence is needed.  I commend any suburbanites who don't see a problem.  If all of them felt the same way downtown would be better off.  Accurate or not, there's a widespread perception of downtown not being safe at night.  There are many accounts on other UO threads, coming from pro-downtown individuals, of scary situations taking place with no help in sight.  The majority reaction from girls who attend CSU is "You walk down Euclid at night?  No way would I do that, ever."  It's obviously not a unanimous sentiment but I'd call it a consensus.

 

The view that additional police visibility would make people feel less safe... I disagree, and I think your reasoning would work better in a setting people generally considered safe to begin with, like for example the mall in Strongsville.  If cops were suddenly all over it, people might wonder what's going on.  But there's nothing odd or out of place about police walking the beat on downtown streets.  It's a pretty normal scene.  A downtown street completely deserted at night is not so normal.       

If the image or perception is so bad why is the fastest growing neighborhood in Cleveland, downtown???  I feel safer living downtown than I would in areas of Ohio city and Tremont. 

The majority reaction from girls who attend CSU is "You walk down Euclid at night? No way would I do that, ever." It's obviously not a unanimous sentiment but I'd call it a consensus.

 

 

Although  I am not a Viking Girl, I recently graduated from there and must believe that a much larger part of this problem is the sheer number of vacant storefronts on Euclid.  Vacancy is a magnet for illicit behavior.  Does it really make sense to put more uniformed police on Euclid when there is little night-time foot traffic? 

 

I suppose this is a bit of a chicken and egg problemo.  The BEST solution to safety is more eyes on the street, ala Jane Jacobs (who may have once been a Viking girl), but to get said people to move downtown, do we need more police on the streets?  I, for one, am not a fan of the type of noticeably armed policemyn one sees when walking around in Moscow or Quito or São Paulo.  To me it makes things feel more dangerous.  IMHO, I think the DCA's Clean&Safe Ambassadors do a great job of creating a welcoming environment.  Apparently, they cover downtown for 18 hours of each day.  Not sure what the effect would be if a portion of their staff were on duty for the remaining six.

If the image or perception is so bad why is the fastest growing neighborhood in Cleveland, downtown???  

 

Because perceptions of outlying neighborhoods are even worse than those of downtown.  I don't agree with many of these perceptions, and you don't appear to either, but I think it's measurable how many people do agree with them and need to be won over.

 

I'm all for using DCA ambassadors instead.  They could accomplish the same essential function while being less threatening than police.

I'm all for using DCA ambassadors instead. They could accomplish the same essential function while being less threatening than police.

 

I like that idea

I'm all for using DCA ambassadors instead. They could accomplish the same essential function while being less threatening than police.

 

And less costly.

If the image or perception is so bad why is the fastest growing neighborhood in Cleveland, downtown???  I feel safer living downtown than I would in areas of Ohio city and Tremont. 

 

Not to be negative, but you're talking about the fastest growing area in a city that has been hemmoraging people for 60 years.   

 

Also, kudos to the ambassadors, they do a great job.

 

I agree with previous posters who have said we need to establish more residents DT in order to get more stores.  While I am no uber-capitalist, if the demand is there, I guarantee the stores will come.

Its not just growing compared to other neighborhoods in Cleveland. Its growing compared to other cities downtown populations. 

 

"Cleveland's downtown population grew from 7,261 in 1990 to 9,599 as of the 2000 Census, and in 2005 was rated by the Brookings Institution as one of America's "Emerging Downtowns", due to its 32.2% growth rate over this period".

Which is why it should have stuff.

More CSU bars!