How extensive is the wireless "mesh" at this point?  You'd still need a PC or a laptop...

 

I could see a 24 hour spot with some PCs being marketable, but a place specifically for internet users?  I don't know...  The proliferation of in-room and in-hotel facilities has pretty much eliminated the need for this in terms of business travelers and tourists.  I suppose if its designed well enough, anything could work!

I'm talking something where a person with no laptop can check e-mail quickly before catching a bus or before a game. Put it in a 24 hour accessible spot and add a 24 hour store/snack bar.

a person with no laptop? what is this, 1996???

^ha, yeah they're still aroun, but an internet cafe would also benefit those who own laptops, but are going to a game or the club,

I got my first laptop in December -- second hand and it doesn't work. Can I get a conditional "welcome to 1996"? Just don't tell me I need to start liking music produced after 1989, OK? I happen to think melody is an important ingredient of music.  :|

What about Steve's Lunch at W48th and Lorain for a 24 hours spot?  If you are looking for late night characters, this place is choch full of them.  On any given friday or saturday at 3:30, my friends and I represent the drunk white mid 20's guy crowd for better or worse.  $1.29 chilli dogs, put me down for a half dozen.

The Sixth Street Market was recently turned into a really casual bar and pizzaria supposedly open late, but not sure exactly how late. I stopped in there a few days after it openned and had a slice. It was just okay, but a nice addition to the neighborhood. The Hookah Lounge and coffee shop on Euclid in Playhouse Square had aspirations of being open 24 hours, but with the construction and smoking ban, I'm not sure what is going on with that place.

I represent the drunk white mid 20's guy crowd for better or worse.  $1.29 chilli dogs, put me down for a half dozen.

 

Holy crap, 1/2 dozen? I guess the 30's crowd should be good for double that amount... I'll fit right in.

i think downtown cleveland needs Warren's Hot Dog Shoppe Downtown.

The Hookah Lounge and coffee shop on Euclid in Playhouse Square had aspirations of being open 24 hours, but with the construction and smoking ban, I'm not sure what is going on with that place.

 

i think they have closed.  my understanding is that none of the ground floor tenants of the theater buildings are paying ANY rent during the construction.  apparently business is way down in this area, and is probably why the new irish bar is in a wait and see hold pattern until the section in front on euclid is complete.

OK. Let me be more descriptive!

 

I wish downtown Cleveland had a bar like this http://www.vigbar.com

 

When I lived in NYC, this was were we went all the time. It's was small and just sort of "chill." You didn't need to dance around or anything like that. I personally don't like clubs so this fits my personality more. I wish there was little places like this around.

 

Jamie- not sure what the vig bar is like, but just a stones throw from downtown is the Velvet tango room -super classy (yet not at all stuffy) place to relax with the best cocktails in town. Mind you they come at a price (but come to think of it, they are not more the NYC  prices and the care put into them cannot be beat)  otherwise I agree, there are not enough "neighborhood joint" type places that you find in OC or Tremont. the only exception I can think of is the Little Bar, which has great burgers, wings, and atmosphere.

Are you sure/when did Hookah Lounge close?  I thought I saw people in there just the other night?

^what other night? last week, i noticed that it was closed during the day. there are not tell-tale signs that it has closed for good (missing equipment, boxes, etc).

maybe a week or so ago.  This calls for some investigation.

OK. Let me be more descriptive!

 

I wish downtown Cleveland had a bar like this http://www.vigbar.com

 

When I lived in NYC, this was were we went all the time. It's was small and just sort of "chill." You didn't need to dance around or anything like that. I personally don't like clubs so this fits my personality more. I wish there was little places like this around.

 

Jamie- not sure what the vig bar is like, but just a stones throw from downtown is the Velvet tango room -super classy (yet not at all stuffy) place to relax with the best cocktails in town. Mind you they come at a price (but come to think of it, they are not more the NYC  prices and the care put into them cannot be beat)  otherwise I agree, there are not enough "neighborhood joint" type places that you find in OC or Tremont. the only exception I can think of is the Little Bar, which has great burgers, wings, and atmosphere.

 

Thanks! I need to check out the Velvet Tango Room.

 

I think the WHD or Ohio City would be the PERFECT area for a place like the Vig Bar. Little Italy has a few low-key places similar to this...But different. I suppose the Vig Bar might be like Lola but just small and for just drinks.

What about Steve's Lunch at W48th and Lorain for a 24 hours spot?  If you are looking for late night characters, this place is choch full of them.  On any given friday or saturday at 3:30, my friends and I represent the drunk white mid 20's guy crowd for better or worse.  $1.29 chilli dogs, put me down for a half dozen.

steves is the BEST. There are characters there at all hours. I forgot about them being open all night...They have breakfast too, but have never gotten past the dogs

To me that Vig Bar doesn't look that unlike some of the bars in Cleveland mentioned already. The bar at Hyde Park immediately came to my mind. Other similar old time chill bars where you don't need to dance are the Little Bar, Waterstreet, Chophouse, Johnny's, Lobbey Court at the Rennaissance, or D'Vine. Mercury Lounge, Jaq's, XO, and Vivo's are more modern but can be pretty laid back as well.

Steve's, eh?  They do a good tofu dog?

 

Switching gears, if I were a Euclid Ave. merchant, I'd be pissed.  They haven't added a single brick (are they baking them one-at-a-time at RTA HQ?) to the stretch of Playhouse Square in front of the theaters in like two months.  Meanwhile, it sits in a state of disarray... what the hell?  I HATE walking over there these days...and I usually love a disheveled construction site.  Except that usually you can see PROGRESS!!!

It looks like they are preparing to do the south side of Euclid directly across from the theaters. The bricks are just sitting there.  Anyone for an urbanohio day of service??

I don't mind clean-up but bricklaying? I can make sacrifices, but not when it involves my nails! :lol:

^I was thinking that we could do some interesting things with the different colored bricks. We could spell out mayday or urbanohio or government waste, etc. ;)

"Dual Hub" might be fun to spell in brick.

"Dual Hub" might be fun to spell in brick.

 

hoooowwwlliiing  :laugh:  aaarrrghh cough cough -- _{ouch i hurt myself.}

Hey, I've got a question.

 

Is there anything we can do to bring more stores downtown, especially on Euclid? I don't have any money to invest, but I'm sick of complaining all the time. I'd like to do *something* to make things better. If they can put up giant-ass Avon Commons, there's got to be a way to fill up Euclid Avenue........ Right??

no

I don't mind clean-up but bricklaying? I can make sacrifices, but not when it involves my nails! :lol:

 

OK!  Complete agreed!  Its all about nail upkeep.

no

 

Man you're a grouch!

There really isn't much you can do, unless you want to start your own grassroots campaign for Euclid Avenue... ie: "Friends of Euclid Avenue."

no

 

Man you're a grouch!

 

I'm just saying retailers don't show up if you call and say "pretty please". These guys are pros at making money, they look for certain demographics (i.e. % with college degree, average income, downtown cbd population, etc. etc.)

I wouldn't assume that they have perfect, up to date info, however.  If you could be make a compelling case for why downtown Cleveland is a potentially lucrative market using demographic data, you might be able to convince retailers to "study the option" of moving downtown.

I wouldn't assume that they have perfect, up to date info, however.  If you could be make a compelling case for why downtown Cleveland is a potentially lucrative market using demographic data, you might be able to convince retailers to "study the option" of moving downtown.

 

knowing people that work in commercial real estate data, their info is very accurate.

knowing people that work in commercial real estate data, their info is very accurate.

 

 

That is somewhat of an inaccurate statement in terms of commercial real estate data.  Alot of times these companies gravitate to areas that are deemed "Hot" markets such as Phoenix and and Charlotte.  The information is generic computer census Numbers that they get from the govt. There is an area that is south of Atlanta that was deemed economically weak and would not be able to sustain commercial developments.  College students in a real estate class at Tech actually did a survey in the area to get a view of disposable income.  The findings were presented to a developer that contradicted what the experts said, who in turn convinced Target to become an anchor in the shopping plaza.  In their first quarter they termed that particular Target was the top grossing Target in the U.S.

As far as if there is something that can be done, sure it can.  It starts at a grassroots level use some college students in a marketing class, real estate class, etc...  Do studies then submit them to the city, developers, companies.  Alot of thesecompanies in Cle are very Very very Very very did I say very conservative. and they sometimes are not progressive enough.  They are followers instead of leaders that is why I am cheering for Stark because his plans are ambitious.

Yes, we know the Governments information is incorrect.  Hell even Cleveland did their own marketing study andn it was no where near the census.

 

That being said,there is no perfect formula, but someone has to be saying, that downtown living in Cleveland has to improve and there needs to be x, y & z.

 

again, we have no marketing/pr startegy in Cleveland to attract developers.

I'd prefer a 24/7 pharmacy drug shop downtown.. the CVS at E.9 and Euclid or the one at E.9 and Hamilton. And I'm saying "pretty please" nicely!

I've found that developers often use Census data to decide if they are seriously interested in a particular market or even a certain street corner. Usually, that data is accurate enough to nail down a site (although I question whether Census data is as accurate in the city, especially for bad neighborhoods, as it is in better areas of Cleveland and certainly the suburbs). But if their development is substantial enough, I've seen developers seek out more detailed data to shape the final product they will ultimately offer.

 

I also agree that too many Cleveland developers are followers and not leaders. Fortunately that situation is getting a little better. Stark, Zaremba,  Heartland, Marous, Rysar and others are taking risks that developers in the past wouldn't have. But for other developers, it's hard for them to find data for new, hot (or at least warming) areas in Cleveland's core when they're not even looking. Many are still looking in the opposite direction -- to farmlands at the urban fringe.

I'd prefer a 24/7 pharmacy drug shop downtown.. the CVS at E.9 and Euclid or the one at E.9 and Hamilton. And I'm saying "pretty please" nicely!

 

Yes!  The CVS at 9th & Euclid, with it's 6pm closing is really absurd.  It's sandwitched in btw flourishing E. 4th and the growing Corner Alley and residential crowd and other Gateway properties along Prospect/Huron like Osborne, Huron, Pointe @ Gateway, Statler and many others coming on-line ... not to mention the Arcade-Hyatt, Residence Inn, Holiday Inn Select, Radisson and a bunch of other boutique and other hotels in the area. ... someone needs to tap CVS on the shoulder and say: wake up, dudes.  Is anyone approaching Joe Cimperman about this?

I'd prefer a 24/7 pharmacy drug shop downtown.. the CVS at E.9 and Euclid or the one at E.9 and Hamilton. And I'm saying "pretty please" nicely!

 

Yes!  The CVS at 9th & Euclid, with it's 6pm closing is really absurd.  It's sandwitched in btw flourishing E. 4th and the growing Corner Alley and residential crowd and other Gateway properties along Prospect/Huron like Osborne, Huron, Pointe @ Gateway, Statler and many others coming on-line ... not to mention the Arcade-Hyatt, Residence Inn, Holiday Inn Select, Radisson and a bunch of other boutique and other hotels in the area. ... someone needs to tap CVS on the shoulder and say: wake up, dudes.  Is anyone approaching Joe Cimperman about this?

 

YOu've just made your case right there,  :wink:  I would put the above in a letter to city council, the store manager, CVS regional mgmt., Joe Cimperman.  Then with the help of people here, find out who building mgmt is for residencies in the immediate area and send the letter to them along with the Gateway folks, the indians, cavs, gund arena, businesses on E. 4th and Playhouse Sq., the arcade, etc...

I'd prefer a 24/7 pharmacy drug shop downtown.. the CVS at E.9 and Euclid or the one at E.9 and Hamilton. And I'm saying "pretty please" nicely!

 

Yes!  The CVS at 9th & Euclid, with it's 6pm closing is really absurd.  It's sandwitched in btw flourishing E. 4th and the growing Corner Alley and residential crowd and other Gateway properties along Prospect/Huron like Osborne, Huron, Pointe @ Gateway, Statler and many others coming on-line ... not to mention the Arcade-Hyatt, Residence Inn, Holiday Inn Select, Radisson and a bunch of other boutique and other hotels in the area. ... someone needs to tap CVS on the shoulder and say: wake up, dudes.  Is anyone approaching Joe Cimperman about this?

 

YOu've just made your case right there,  :wink:   I would put the above in a letter to city council, the store manager, CVS regional mgmt., Joe Cimperman.  Then with the help of people here, find out who building mgmt is for residencies in the immediate area and send the letter to them along with the Gateway folks, the indians, cavs, gund arena, businesses on E. 4th and Playhouse Sq., the arcade, etc...

 

Thats a good idea, downtown residences have more power in numbers, if the store can get the support of the neighborhood, I would think they would want to stay open.  I would also send a letter to the Historic gateway and PSF and elected state/federal official.  Also, our Cuyahoga County leaders...they will soon be right across the street. 

Why doesn't downtown Cleveland have ...

 

More surface parking lots?  :lol: Just kidding.

 

Seriously, I wish that downtown had a market district. I know we have the West Side Market directly across the bridge, but I mean something a) outside, b) downtown and c) with a mix of products other than groceries, such as jewelry, paintings, etc. Outdoor markets increase street vibrancy, pedestrian activity and spillover activity in restaurants, etc. Moreover, they are grassroots in nature (i.e. don't require a pitch to an out-of-region chain store, have rents that are not exclusionary to vendors of lower income levels and result in more money staying in the local economy). And for those of you who say North Coast weather precludes a year-round market, check out the Byward Market District in Ottawa (http://www.byward-market.com/) ... who are currently sponsoring a Snow Volleyball Tourament.

Oh, and jamiec, if you don't mind hanging with the gays, Hamilton's Martini Lounge in the Theatre District bears a striking resemblance to the vig bar pics.

^I'll echo that sentiment. That's exactly what I'd like to see under consideration in a redesign of Public Square. The main median in Crocker Park includes a small scale version of the type of market common in Europe that I am thinking about. I'd like to see something like that all around the inner perimeter of Public Square; permanent structures for a variety of vendors to lease out.

"And for those of you who say North Coast weather precludes a year-round market"

 

I agree that sometimes the "weather" excuse is over-used but there is a factor that affects Cleveland more than some other colder-climate cities - the wind. Cold temps are one thing and plenty of cities manage to prosper in spite of them. However, combine those cold temps with some often horrific downdrafts, and a quick lunch/errand walk can be downright unbearable - and even though I'm a freezebaby, I *always* go out during lunch.

 

The wind frequently comes in from the west and north, and because of downtown's location on the Lake - there is absolutely nothing to dissipate the air currents. That's why during some recent storms, there were windows knocked out of the lakefront buildings (Galleria, Federal Building, Penton, etc.) and planes damaged at Burke. Try walking to Key Tower from the Arcade along Superior on a day like today - that 20something with flurries becomes @ss-freezing while being pelted in the face :-( I'm not saying a market environment couldn't happen but if nominal relief from winter winds would be feasible, you'd probably have a better chance at success.

^I'll echo that sentiment. That's exactly what I'd like to see under consideration in a redesign of Public Square. The main median in Crocker Park includes a small scale version of the type of market common in Europe that I am thinking about. I'd like to see something like that all around the inner perimeter of Public Square; permanent structures for a variety of vendors to lease out.

 

I agree that uses like this should definitely be considered when thinking of new uses for Public Square, but markets don't necessarily have to spring from these high-profile places.  I once proposed creating a temporary (lunch hours on some week days) international food market on Mall B when I worked at City Hall.  The response I got was that it wouldn't work...too difficult to organize...no electrical outlets and what not.  But these things sprout up on parking lots in cities that really want them.  Or under bridges!  Look at Portland's Saturday Market...under a big bridge overpass!  This helps with weather and shade, but it's also not going to be used for anything else, so why not?

 

On a side note, I'm too young to remember the Central Market, but what was it and its surroundings like when it was still operating on land that is now the Gateway Sports Complex?

^^ Agreed. I used to have to do office runs in the ultimate wind tunnel ... Ontario between Lakeside and St. Clair. Yikes! That being said, there are ways of strategically locating an outdoor market to shield it from the wind. At the very least, I think an outdoor market would certainly be viable for six months a year in downtown.

 

^I've always thought that outdoor market rows in downtown alleyways (such as the popular cut-through Daniel Thompson Way) would be an interesting use of space. I know this might cause some delivery headaches, but I would assume that it would be feasible.

doesn't columbus have some type of market in an alley downtown?

I'd prefer a 24/7 pharmacy drug shop downtown.. the CVS at E.9 and Euclid or the one at E.9 and Hamilton. And I'm saying "pretty please" nicely!

 

 

 

 

Been done...

MGD, there were two Central Markets. Here's something I wrote in 2000 about the original Central Market House (1867-1949)...

 

The Central Market can be traced back to 1839, when the city's first municipally owned market house opened as the Michigan Street Market, at the corner of Ontario and the market's namesake, a block south of Public Square. It created a traffic nightmare, so the city council in 1857 authorized moving it to a new site, one mile farther south and renaming it the Central Market. That brought harsh criticism from market vendors, who feared no customers would travel so far uptown. But the Central Market opened for business in 1867 and soon became a fixture at the confluence of Ontario, Broadway, Woodland, Sheriff (East 4th), Eagle, Bolivar, and an approach to the east end of the Central Viaduct (replaced in 1932 by the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge). But as downtown grew up around it, the market's location soon doomed it for the same reasons that prompted the moving of the Michigan Street Market. Streetcars, trucks, cars and buses inched their way around vendors unloading fresh meat, fish, chicken and produce. The age of the building, and its antiquated sewage system, also raised fears that the site was creating unsanitary conditions. Six years after this picture was taken from the top of the Landmark office building, Cleveland voters passed a bond issue to fund citywide public improvements, including moving the Central Market into the old Sheriff Street Market a block north. The old Central Market burned in 1949, bringing to an end its service to a rapidly changing city after 82 years.

 

Here's another write-up about the Central Market and other municipal markets in Cleveland....

 

Municipal Markets in Cleveland

Charles Kamp

Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 50, Reducing the Cost of Food Distribution (Nov., 1913), pp. 128-130

 

 

 

And the later version of the Central Market opened in the remnants of the former Sheriff's Street Market. Here's what I wrote about that, also in 2000....

 

Along Sheriff Street (later East 4th Street), between Huron and Bolivar roads, one of the largest food markets in the city was built in 1890. While it was equipped with an electric power plant, there was no way to keep perishable food fresh for an entire day. Housewives headed downtown early on the streetcar, often with their work-bound husbands, to buy food while it was still fresh. When the market first opened its doors, shoppers could buy ham at 10 cents a pound, sirloin at 12 cents, and porterhouse at 15. Sheriff Street Market competed for 50 years with the Central Market, located a block away, until the former closed its doors at the start of the Great Depression. On May 9, 1930, as the Sheriff Street Market was being converted into a bus station, it caught fire, causing extensive damage to the north head house and display areas. The surrounding neighborhood had been in decline in the preceding decade, and the market's demise only hastened it. Some of the funding from a 1946 bond issue for citywide public improvements was used to restore the Sheriff Street Market and relocate the Central Market into it. This market, along with the West Side Market on the other side of the Cuyahoga River, were the only two food markets left that rented out stands for vendors to sell fresh meat, chicken, fish and produce. But the Central Market closed in the early 1980s to make way for a domed stadium that was never built.

 

There are pictures of both buildings at http://www.clevelandmemory.org/search/

Why doesn't downtown Cleveland have ...

 

More surface parking lots?  :lol: Just kidding.

 

Seriously, I wish that downtown had a market district. I know we have the West Side Market directly across the bridge, but I mean something a) outside, b) downtown and c) with a mix of products other than groceries, such as jewelry, paintings, etc. Outdoor markets increase street vibrancy, pedestrian activity and spillover activity in restaurants, etc. Moreover, they are grassroots in nature (i.e. don't require a pitch to an out-of-region chain store, have rents that are not exclusionary to vendors of lower income levels and result in more money staying in the local economy). And for those of you who say North Coast weather precludes a year-round market, check out the Byward Market District in Ottawa (http://www.byward-market.com/) ... who are currently sponsoring a Snow Volleyball Tourament.

 

Surface lots.  We outta stone you for that!  :wink:

 

We had a central market....it was raised for gateway, I would hope that one of the new projects would include/create a new market.

 

In any weather, its a win win.  In the late 80s both markets looked pretty bad, but because of the quality and variety of products they were both packed.

 

 

since my first bridge tour I always thought the space under the Superior Bridge would make a great open market place...food vendors, some music, arts and crafts, and a seasonal farm market ala North Union. 

^ I think that would be a pretty amazing use of space. At the very least, I think that would be promising during the summer months.