Too bad the Tower City site will be favored for a convention center and medical mart as long as Jackson is mayor and Forest City Enterprises keeps bankrolling his campaigns.

That doesn't preclude planning for an appropriate rail station on the lakefront.

I have been trying to envisiage an intermodal Convention-Center/Ohio-Hub/Euclid-Corridor-Transit system.  Nothing works.  The Convo Center would either be near the current Amtrak stop and skip ECT, or it would be at Tower City and not near Amtrak. 

 

In my (admittedly) gloomy vision, there will be a time when the world has 40% of the petroleum to get by with, Americans will be priced out of cars, and travelers will want to use a train to get to Cleveland's hospitals or to a business meeting place (which would logically be the Convention Center in Cleveland).  A local transit system starting at the train station would be ultimate.

 

perhaps one day rta will "close the loop" and bring the wfl rapid crosstown to the blue-green line? its been talked about in the past. a rapid loop around downtown might tie it all up better.

 

:?I have always wondered what is the Old Shaker station's condition at Tower City. What can be run through there? To expand capacity or something? Does anyone have any pictures to better understand what is down there.

Oh jeez. You're just begging for yet another of KJP's photo layouts!!!  :-D

Any light rail train or an articulated heavy rail train.

 

This should be posted at one of the RTA threads.

 

IIRC, there are the two circular lops that the old PCC cars turned around on and running through the first loop is the LRV turn around that you see pictured in robs second picture.

Well, I'm guessing if that old wooden Shaker station and facilities -- at least the area -- is still in tact, at the very least, there's plenty of extra boarding space should RTA ever decide to operate commuter rail, diesel or otherwise -- from a radial freight route then over the Rapid tracks into Tower City. 

 

... like, say, the British Leland "RailBus" RTA tested (to Mentor,  stopping in Euclid), that was wildly popular, but still passed on, ... some 20 years ago!!!!

Well, I'm guessing if that old wooden Shaker station and facilities -- at least the area -- is still in tact, at the very least, there's plenty of extra boarding space should RTA ever decide to operate commuter rail, diesel or otherwise -- from a radial freight route then over the Rapid tracks into Tower City. 

 

... like, say, the British Leland "RailBus" RTA tested (to Mentor,  stopping in Euclid), that was wildly popular, but still passed on, ... some 20 years ago!!!!

 

the wooden station was rehabbed.  As you can see in this b&w picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/RTA_Blue_and_Green_Line_Public_Square_Station_Platform..jpg

 

Here are a couple of pictures of the old wooden station I think you're referring to.  On the left side of the picture are the steps that took you up to to higbees.

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56922

 

And here is a picture of the train after it turned around and would sit just at the end of the platform. 

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56922

 

Remember, this is when there were three set of doors closest to higbees.  You could walk out of Higbee's and right into the shaker entrance, the doors in the middle were only open during rush hour and was an exit or an entrence depending on AM or PM rushhour and the further doors were and exit.

 

I honestly don't miss climbing those stairs but I do miss never having to go outside when BP was in the LTV building.

 

And me here, I never knew this existed.

And me here, I never knew this existed.

 

How long have you been in Cleveland, you're not a native, correct?  Do you remember Terminal Tower Concourse, pre-Tower City?

And me here, I never knew this existed.

 

How long have you been in Cleveland, you're not a native, correct?  Do you remember Terminal Tower Concourse, pre-Tower City?

 

I moved to cleveland in 1999. But don't worry, my pops has some old pictures to take me down memory lane of the old concourse.

^I certainly don't.  I used to take the train down with my parents for the holiday displays and Bruce the Spruce at Higbee's, but I only started taking the train on a regular basis in 1994.  When was the new station and Tower City opened?  I seem to recall that it was right around that time.

As a child, I always begged for a hot pretzel from the Hough bakery every time we went through the old concourse and my mother was nice enough to oblige -- to shut me up I'm sure!

And apparently we've dipped back down into memory lane.

at least mine had an attempt at keeping on topic!

Yeah thats probably why you don't remember it.

 

The doors are all still there as the station hasn't been touched.  I do know that they stored trains there during bad weather.  I think the station has been used once since the shaker side of the new station opened. 

 

The old shaker station was still open for quite awhile the "new" station was being rebuilt.

 

Here are some other pics of CUT

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe%3FCISOROOT%3D/general%26CISOPTR%3D3594&imgrefurl=http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/results.php%3FCISOBOX1%3Dconcourse%26CISOFIELD1%3DCISOSEARCHALL%26CISOOP1%3Dany%26CISOROOT%3Dall&h=108&w=160&sz=5&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=j0ITjaWceMdAlM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcleveland%2Bunion%2Bterminal%2Bconcourse%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DX

 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Platform_west.jpg/120px-RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Platform_west.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_City_(RTA_Rapid_Transit_station)&h=94&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=44&um=1&tbnid=ogTU6jE8n6DZcM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcleveland%2Bunion%2Bterminal%2Bshaker%2Brapid%2Bstation%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

 

the old main entrance to the Cleveland Rapic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Entrance.jpg/800px-RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Entrance.jpg

I think the station was open throughout the entire rebuild but you had to walk through a maze of constructed corridors/tunnels.

 

I can't remember when it "officially" reopened.  I do remember there being a small ceremony to close the old shaker station and the switch to the new center stub for weekday non rushhour service.

 

I remember there was a learning curb for all riders because we had to get off on the outside track during rush hour and some people on the redline side would wonder why a shaker train was going by.  Then RTA had to coordinate trains on eastbound track cause people on the shaker side would be like, what train is this and why do we have to rush on/off.

 

It was funny to see RTA works screaming to stay towards the middle of the platform as to not get near the Redline trains as they went past.

 

honestly I liked the individual station, but now that I have to travel it so much easier just to walk across.

Yeah thats probably why you don't remember it.

The old shaker station was still open for quite awhile the "new" station was being rebuilt.

 

Here are some other pics of CUT ...

 

I only saw the original concourse several years after the trains had quit running and the stairs to track level had been closed off and the skylight had been covered over. It was pretty drab, then.

 

The third image ("Grand Concourse of new Union Station at Public Square"), with the two-story atrium and high vaulted coffered ceiling, from the first link you posted looks like it might have been a representation from the original Burnham design. The original concourse at Terminal Tower never resembled it, so far as I know. It looks like someone lifted the arched window at the end from that design when they created Tower City, though.

^I think you're right about that image.  There are actually several old postcard images in circulation showing proposed designs (even at public square) rather than the one actually built.

 

MTS, thanks for the links to photos of the old rapid stations.  I have vague recollections of arriving at the old Shaker line platforms- usually for Indians games or going to my father's office (in the Midland building).  I definitely remember climbing lots of ramps which I used to love.

 

I never rode the Red Line before the Tower City station reconstruction though.  From this photo, the old station entry looked surprisingly cool:

 

that was the only part that was cool.  once you walked thru the turn still then down the stairs....ugly set in.

 

The stations(platiform level) were both butt ugly back then.

^From the other photos you found (see below), I believe it.  Looks like the bowels of Penn Station, but worse (if that's possible).  Still, I'm not a huge fan of the mall feel of the current RTA tower city station.  Just an aesthetic complaint though.  Someone else mentioned this, but it must really confuse people to be waiting for one type of train (Red line or green/blue) and see the other kind pass through without stopping.  It is a pretty weird setup now, though seems to work OK.  Just points to the silliness of having two different rail formats when one would be better and would provide better operational flexibility.

 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Platform_west.jpg/120px-RTA_Red_Line_Public_Square_Station_Platform_west.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_City_(RTA_Rapid_Transit_station)&h=94&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=44&um=1&tbnid=ogTU6jE8n6DZcM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcleveland%2Bunion%2Bterminal%2Bshaker%2Brapid%2Bstation%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

^From the other photos you found (see below), I believe it.  Looks like the bowels of Penn Station, but worse (if that's possible).  Still, I'm not a huge fan of the mall feel of the current RTA tower city station.  Just an aesthetic complaint though.  Someone else mentioned this, but it must really confuse people to be waiting for one type of train (Red line or green/blue) and see the other kind pass through without stopping.  It is a pretty weird setup now, though seems to work OK.  Just points to the silliness of having two different rail formats when one would be better and would provide better operational flexibility.

 

 

I can agree.  You can also see where the "middle" track and old red line station were cut in half to accommodate the blue and green line into one station. 

 

Redline trains can't run on shaker platforms or stations.  I think they draw different amounts of power and I think it would be expensive for RTA to refit all stations east of shaker square with platforms, ADA equipment, etc. so that we could have one fleet.

 

I like my shaker trains.  Just don't bring back the old PCC cars with no heat or air conditioning.  Those trains, on a curb, were like scratching a blackboard with a thousand tons of pressure.

 

Granted I would like to be able to find some of the cars that had the Canadian flag and American flag on them and the trains with the sunburt on them.  I thought that they were kind of cool. 

 

It would be nice to have those cars up and running on a weekend in spring or fall, when its not to hot or cold so that people can see and ride the old death traps cars.  Maybe open the old station for special tours, etc.  It would be great to hear a conductor announce, "this train is headed for public square, please you the front door to depart, the rear doors will not open."  or take a train to towercity and get out of a train and both middle doors open.

Penn Station is not gonna win any beauty contests that's for sure, when I was getting off the train this morning I actually looked up at the ceiling for an extended amount of time due to a stupid mother trying to get her stroller up the stairs instead of using the elevator, and realized how disgusting the ceilings are in there.

When Tower City first opened, the ceiling coffers above the tracks were bordered with neon. As I recall, the color matched the line served. The insulating bushings are still in place, but the neon tubes are gone. Does anyone know why they did away with the neon? The color really livened up the otherwise drab station platforms.

 

A couple more from my archive, also on my web site:

 

Pullman-built "Airporter" at Hopkins, 1978 or 1979. They had luggage shelves right inside the doors.

 

Airport Rapid at Terminal Tower 1978

Rob, I forgot about the airport cars.

 

Also, you can see where the train line on a normal basis had 3 or more cars.  RTA really (I know Jerry, I know) needs to add an additional car to each train and man each station both from 6AM to 8PM. 

 

When Tower City first opened, the ceiling coffers above the tracks were bordered with neon. As I recall, the color matched the line served. The insulating bushings are still in place, but the neon tubes are gone. Does anyone know why they did away with the neon? The color really livened up the otherwise drab station platforms.

 

I remember those as well, I searched high and low but I can't find any photos.

^I too remember those and remember wondering why they took them down so quickly. Maybe they were a maintenance issue?

 

 

Redline trains can't run on shaker platforms or stations.  I think they draw different amounts of power and I think it would be expensive for RTA to refit all stations east of shaker square with platforms, ADA equipment, etc. so that we could have one fleet.

 

I think the big mistake was choosing high platform for the Red Line 50 years ago.  But you wouldn't have to change any platform heights to use a single vehicle type- the SF light rails manages both platform types with on-board stairs that elevate when the trains enter the Market Street tunnel (which is all high platform).  Something to think about when the fleet is retired (in 10-20 years)?  MTS, just imagine a one seat ride from Shaker Square to the airport!

MTS, just imagine a one seat ride from Shaker Square to the airport!

 

I know, but I like the shaker cars...now.  Ironic as I hated them at first.

 

Yeah I hear you about the platform heights.  Also the NJ Transit trains have built in stairs as some of their stations are just little slabs of crumbling concrete on the side of a track.

Back to the OP: what's the old station like today?  I don't hear that much about urban exploration in the Cleveland area except for abandoned factories, and I'm surprised there's no photos of the lost station's current state.

 

I wonder if there's any old photos of the old traction track area from the 1930s and 1940s.  I've seen photos of the concourse, but nothing from track level.  Track plans show several more tracks, but photos seem nonexistent.

 

I'm fascinated with parts of the Shaker rapid that were only partially built, like the loop provision in Gates Mills and the graded ROW in Beachwood.  From what I understand, Shaker Heights was originally planned to extend eastward to the Chagrin River valley (Shaker Country Estates), but I've never seen maps of what was originally planned for buildout.

to my knowledtge, the station is the same as it is in the (b&w wiki picture) you see below.

 

I thought the trains were only go to be extended to Brainard?

MTS, thanks for the reminder... I'd totally put the "transitional" Shaker station, for the 'new' LRV's, out of my mind... Too most people, that old wooden station was probably dark, dank, drafty and, frankly, ugly, w/ it's cheap wooden benches, wire fences, old drugstore fluorescent lights hanging from the rafters and wood benches.  To some, downright scary after hours... But to us kids, it was treasure trove of excitement and wonderment.  To us it was a big-city subway station -- we had what New York had.  And, of course, a transit-loving kid like yours truly simply went nuts on his 1st Airport Rapid ride at the CTS Terminal Tower station, which was absolutely identical (in our minds anyway) to a New York subway... Those old rob shots bring back kid memories... Cleveland seemed so BIG as a kid; a great city to grow up in.

 

Dan, you might try your public library (though, I'm sure, if you sniff around on the Net, you can find stuff).  I know way back, as a grade schooler writing on the History of Shaker Heights and the North Union Shakers, I found a lot of stuff in both the Shaker Hts and Cleveland Heights libraries about the Vans and their ultimate Rapid plans.  The late Harry Christiansen has several books exclusively on Cleveland transit with a lot on the Rapid system as a whole where I'm sure you can find stuff; lots of maps, too, if I recall...

 

You're right, the Vans planned to extend their interurban (the name for the Shaker lines back then) to Chagrin Falls and Gates Mills, but never got past Green Road, their last extension.  The fledgling RTA, in the late 70s was, as its 1st signature 'big project' was set to extend the Green line to I-271, which would have been a great boon to travel connecting all the east burbs along the outerbelt, Beachwood, Pepper Pike, Woodmere, etc... but, as usual, politics got in the way and, well, ... another promising Cleveland plan that bit the dust.

MTS, thanks for the reminder... I'd totally put the "transitional" Shaker station, for the 'new' LRV's, out of my mind... Too most people, that old wooden station was probably dark, dank, drafty and, frankly, ugly, w/ it's cheap wooden benches, wire fences, old drugstore fluorescent lights hanging from the rafters and wood benches.  To some, downright scary after hours... But to us kids, it was treasure trove of excitement and wonderment.  To us it was a big-city subway station -- we had what New York had.  And, of course, a transit-loving kid like yours truly simply went nuts on his 1st Airport Rapid ride at the CTS Terminal Tower station, which was absolutely identical (in our minds anyway) to a New York subway... Those old rob shots bring back kid memories... Cleveland seemed so BIG as a kid; a great city to grow up in.

 

I know.  I loved riding in the first car of the train.  My favorite seat was right behind the driver. [ http://davesrailpix.com/shrt/htm/shrt060.htm ]  There was no "divider" or "wall" so it was like you were driving.  My mother would always tell me to sit down and be quiet so the driver wouldnt run into a car!  and at every street crossing I would ask if I could blow the whistle or ring the bell.  Which they would let you do back then.  Ironically I HATE that damn horn now!  :|  and the drivers wore cool uniforms, with bowties.  I always had to be the first kid on a Shaker Square so I could pay the fare for me and my mom.

 

Remember when the Shaker (East 55 to TowerCity) and CTS (TowerCity to Windermere) trains ran "london"?

 

And speaking of hopkins (this is going waaaaaaay off topic) but I remember riding out to the airport on the train (the shaker rapid was 35 cents and CTS was 40 cents) to watch the planes from the outside deck of the B concourse.

 

Damn.....we are old! :-o

^Hopkins observation deck was the best... So many things to do.  Like I said, I can't think of a better city to grow up in.

I may have posted this before, but it bears repeating.  Here's what Cleveland's Lake Front Station (as designed by Daniel Burnham) would have looked like had the Van Swearingen brothers not pushed for the construction of Terminal Tower.

and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's at the end of Mall C?

and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's at the end of Mall C?

 

I'm being serious here, but is that a trick question? Mall B or D.

 

The Union Station as part of the Group Plan would have been located at the north end of Mall C.

The Union Station as part of the Group Plan would have been located at the north end of Mall C.

 

Yes I realize that.  Maybe my brain isn't clicking on all cylinders today.

Jerry.....I wonder if a tour can be organized?  :wink:

BTW, this has got to be one of the weirdest threads ever -- kind of a catch-all about Cleveland Union Terminal.

 

There is a thread about CUT, located at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11674.0.html

 

Moderators?? Time to combine?

 

Blam-o, threads combined.

This thread has brought back a flood of memories.  (kjp/florida guy - still no memories of the snow storm though  :?).

 

I just want to wrap myself up in a Cleveland memories blanket and have a good cup of coffee.

Thank you!

I just want to wrap myself up in a Cleveland memories blanket and have a good cup of coffee.

 

Coffee!?  No Bosco?  ... at least, Ovaltine.

God we were such a civilized, sophisticated bunch back then... :cry:

 

Awesome picture! 

More here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11674.msg154560.html#msg154560

^ ah ha, i knew there was a thread on this. thx. i searched but it didnt come up for some reason.

By request....

 

So I was digging through my files, through one marked "Cleveland station" to get some dimensional information about the North Coast Transportation Center site (see: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17673.msg411240.html#msg411240). That's when I found these two gems (I never did find the NCTC site dimension info!)....

 

This is a rendering done for the erstwhile Ohio High Speed Rail Authority in 1980, showing what Cleveland Union Terminal's concource might look like if it were modernized for the high-speed rail system that voters derailed in 1982:

 

 

 

And now, for the crem de la crem of images. I knew I had this, I just didn't know where it was. This is a detailed floorplan of the station concourse level of Cleveland Union Terminal circa 1930. I scanned it and left it large here so you can read the details. This is one for your personal archives:

 

Wow! Will the dream Cleveland come true one day?

I am glad I found this site, and some others who are interested in Cleveland's railroads and the terminal.  I am not able to scan and post photos yet - many of which are slides - but I have many photos and info about the last days of the C.U.T.  I also rode the E-L commuter train in February of '73 in the engine, taking photos, and two reels of 16mm b/w motion picture film, which is still intact.  Anyone who has questions should contact me - I may know what you are looking for.  The union terminal staff was usually helpful with my search for information, but anyone connected with PC, including the police, were a huge impediment, due to their desire to avoid lawsuits at all costs.  I can answer some of the technical questions.  I have one of the dwarf signals, and a track and signal blueprint from January of 1969, which I hand corrected as much as possible to what I knew about the original signal and switch machine levers.