I'm glad you found it too! Would you be interested in buying a couple of CUT fire alarm boxes and a framed poster showing alarm instructions etc. for various parts of the station?

 

I am interested in your photos and would be willing to scan them for you. I will be in touch via Personal Message.

Cross-posted from the West Shore Corridor thread in the public transit section....

 

This is the downtown Cleveland station site proposed for WestShore commuter trains, which can also bring other trains along with them -- "re-unionizing" Cleveland Union Terminal!

 

The consultant (PB) is proposing to built the west approach on a bridge over Canal Road. I propose relocating Canal Road...

 

 

 

Thanks to Hts121 for taking this picture of the site from the Stokes Courthouse Tower....

 

Interesting, but how much will this cost and who pays?

And what about the casino? 

And what about the casino? 

 

Like everything else in the area, the casino would go ABOVE.

Interesting, but how much will this cost and who pays?

 

That would be for preliminary engineering to determine. The alternatives analysis is being conducted for WestShore which is determining this is the best downtown destination for commuter rail -- not the lakefront. CVSR's most affordable and connected option is to go to Tower City. That brings in multiple federal funding sources -- FTA (surface transportation program, transit in the parks etc), FRA (PRIIA), NPS and perhaps others. Nonfederal funding could include ODOT/TRAC, Amtrak, CVSR, City of Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Forest City Enterprises, Cleveland casino, etc.

 

WestShore's initial Cleveland station is proposed to be West Boulevard while CVSR's initial Cleveland station is proposed to be Steelyard Commons. Meanwhile, Amtrak's station is the lonely site on the lakefront. Uniting all of these, plus 3C, would create a station that's active around the clock, and be an awesome ARC project.

Interesting, but how much will this cost and who pays?

 

That would be for preliminary engineering to determine. The alternatives analysis is being conducted for WestShore which is determining this is the best downtown destination for commuter rail -- not the lakefront. CVSR's most affordable and connected option is to go to Tower City. That brings in multiple federal funding sources -- FTA (surface transportation program, transit in the parks etc), FRA (PRIIA), NPS and perhaps others. Nonfederal funding could include ODOT/TRAC, Amtrak, CVSR, City of Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Forest City Enterprises, Cleveland casino, etc.

 

WestShore's initial Cleveland station is proposed to be West Boulevard while CVSR's initial Cleveland station is proposed to be Steelyard Commons. Meanwhile, Amtrak's station is the lonely site on the lakefront. Uniting all of these, plus 3C, would create a station that's active around the clock, and be an awesome ARC project.

 

I LIKE it! Puts the trains back at Public Square, as God intended! It looks like this is a big project...so big it will have to be tackled in stages.

And what about the casino?

 

Like everything else in the area, the casino would go ABOVE.

 

Jesus... of course it would.  My point is that it needs to be coordinated.  It may be simple enough to demolish the first and second level of the parking garage to make room for this station, but column spacing would be a very important factor and if not planned for and done correctly could cause track limitations.

^And also, barring a very large act of generosity by a private developer or some easement in RTA's archives that hasn't been discussed of late, I assume access to this land would need to be purchased.  Given that the owner has proposed moving an f'ing river in order to accommodate more parking, I'm slightly pessimistic that he's going to give away that much surface area for tracks and platforms without some serious $.  I really want to be wrong though.

The only reason why Gilbert might is this....

 

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20100722/FREE/100729955#

 

The private plan's backers and chief financiers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske, chairman of the project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, the project's co-chairman.

 

 

This is the downtown Cleveland station site proposed for WestShore commuter trains, which can also bring other trains along with them -- "re-unionizing" Cleveland Union Terminal!

 

I like the idea of having all trains stop at Tower City.  But how would you get Amtrak's Lakeshore Limited in and out of Tower City?

Here is how.....

 

The Lakeshore Limited route (Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland-Buffalo-Albany-New York/Boston) runs from the upper-right corner of this map to the lower left....

 

 

 

This photo, posted at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,13423.0.html shows the angle the west approach track would have to take in order to go over or replace Canal Road to get past the Stokes Federal Courthouse Tower....

 

Cross-posted from the Cleveland Casino thread....

 

 

Feds grant $25M for downtown light rail

Tom Greenwood / The Detroit News

 

Federal officials on Thursday announced a grant agreement has been signed for $25 million toward a proposed light rail project in downtown Detroit.

http://detnews.com/article/20110121/METRO05/101210386/Feds-grant-$25M-for-downtown-light-rail#ixzz1BgDuqf5W

 

That's great news! And note that one of the co-chairs of this rail project is Dan Gilbert, who is building the $600 million casino at Tower City Center. Hey Dan -- include a railroad station in the basement of your casino for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, the WestShore Corridor commuter rail and for Amtrak! You'll have up to 20 trains arriving and departing each day AT YOUR CASINO!

I while back there was a dicussion about the Van Sweringen's suite in the Terminal Tower.  There is a really good article in "Ohio Authority" this month about it, with a few pictures. 

 

If this is the wrong place for it, feel free to move. 

 

The Top Suite

Exploring the Van Sweringens' secret Terminal Tower

 

http://ohioauthority.com/articles/region/the-top-suite/page/1

Here is how.....

 

The Lakeshore Limited route (Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland-Buffalo-Albany-New York/Boston) runs from the upper-right corner of this map to the lower left....

 

 

 

 

Have we seen any interest in this from the people that would make it happen?

Yes, but a lot of work has yet to happen.

Just found this at Cleveland Memory. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but the maps and graphics are remarkable. I've not seen some of the original (1921) proposals for CUT.....

 

http://www.clevelandmemory.com/enr/terminal.html

Just found this at Cleveland Memory. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but the maps and graphics are remarkable. I've not seen some of the original (1921) proposals for CUT.....

 

http://www.clevelandmemory.com/enr/terminal.html

 

That's fantastic!

Cleveland's former train stations, summer nights on the shore, and polka king Ray Budzilek:

Cleveland Remembers Week in Review

 

Published: Sunday, July 24, 2011, 3:00 PM    Updated: Sunday, July 24, 2011, 5:57 PM

By John Kroll, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

 

The "Terminal" in Terminal Tower comes from its origin, standing atop Union Terminal -- nexus for many rail lines connecting Cleveland to the rest of the country.

 

Anne Karavantas of Cleveland Heights remembered when her father traveled on business, and she and her mother would go with him, down one of the brass-railed stairways to trains with names like the Washingtonian or the DeWitt Clinton. Others remembered, too:

 

Read more at: http://www.cleveland.com/remembers/index.ssf/2011/07/clevelands_former_train_statio.html

Restored broken links to most photos on Page 1 and added a couple of historic pics.

Cross-posted from the West Shore Corridor thread in the public transit section....

 

This is the downtown Cleveland station site proposed for WestShore commuter trains, which can also bring other trains along with them -- "re-unionizing" Cleveland Union Terminal!

 

 

Thanks to Hts121 for taking this picture of the site from the Stokes Courthouse Tower....

 

 

This entire span of riverfront has so much potential. With the Rib Festivals and TC Ampitheater events I've attended the area has been a very good host. With some targeted investment it could become quite a diverse and attractive locale.

 

Does anyone believe that with Phase II casino on the way, that there is any chance for this space to develop for retail and recreation?

 

It could be a fantastic "riverfront door" to the Casino. And the arena. And the ballpark. Plus if Commuter rail is still in the mix, with good planning that could be another tremendous advantage.

 

Or is this just another stretch of valuable waterfront property that's cursed for with surface parking?

 

Pure specurumor.  That is a double dose of Speculation and Rumor.

 

On my buddy's boat last weekend...one of the marina workers (not a waiter) was telling me how they were going to be tying boats up down there so you could boat in to the casino.

 

not sure how they get tooo many boats in there with having to keep the channel navigable for the shipping traffic......but there you go.

 

he said this was news all through the marinas, from detroit to buffalo.....

 

I can neither confirm or deny this.....BUT it sure sounds like a pretty decent idea.

 

 

Pure specurumor.  That is a double dose of Speculation and Rumor.

 

On my buddy's boat last weekend...one of the marina workers (not a waiter) was telling me how they were going to be tying boats up down there so you could boat in to the casino.

 

not sure how they get tooo many boats in there with having to keep the channel navigable for the shipping traffic......but there you go.

 

he said this was news all through the marinas, from detroit to buffalo.....

 

I can neither confirm or deny this.....BUT it sure sounds like a pretty decent idea.

 

 

That sounds promising. I'm sure Rock Gaming will have their eyes on the Rock Hall and their plan to accommodate visiting boats.

The Jet Express from Lorain and the islands may dock there at Collision Bend. They have been talking with the casino folks of having a "station" facility for boats. But no station for trains since we will put tax dollars into the Army Corps of Engineers to keep the Cuyahoga River dredged and navigable, but not to extend or restore rail lines (CVSR, West Shore Corridor etc) into downtown Cleveland. You get what you pay for and nothing for what you don't.

Redirected from the RTA thread.....

 

What exactly is the story for these empy rail paths?  There is one along the green line too and it looks like it even has the rapid power lines over it but its clearly abandoned. 

 

Wow, where do I start!

 

OK, how about the beginning? There were two brothers named Oris Paxton and Mantis James Van Sweringen (simply O.P. and M.J., or more commonly, The Vans) who began developing the land of the North Union Shakers into Shaker Heights just after the turn of the previous century. They wanted to build a high-speed rapid transit line into downtown to make their community accessible. To get access to several miles of right of way, they had to buy the 600-mile Nickel Plate RR system (later became part of Norfolk Southern). That got them into the railroad business, and the Vans kept acquiring railroads using borrowed money.

 

They began to envision a major railroad and transit station on Cleveland's Public Square and got the OK from voters in 1919 to build a grand Union Terminal that united all railroads, interurbans and rapid transit lines. They cleared out numerous city blocks southwest of Public Square all the way to the river and excavated it for a subterranean station, and began building high-speed electric railroad access routes from Collinwood to the east to Linndale on the west. The volume of dirt that was excavated for the station and its 19 miles of approach tracks surpassed that of the Panama Canal.

 

Soon, the Vans decided to add an office tower atop the main building facing Public Square. That tower was named Cleveland Union Terminal Tower, but later shortened to Terminal Tower. Below it and several new streets or extensions of other streets (Huron, Prospect, Second, Sixth, etc) as bridges through the terminal complex were six rapid transit station tracks, 12 railroad station tracks and nine railroad coach yard tracks that could be converted into station tracks to meet the ever-growing need for rail travel, envisioned at that time.

 

Instead of running dirty steam locomotives through the subterranean station, the Vans wanted passenger trains arriving CUT to be hauled by electric locomotives. This required a time-consuming change of locomotives at Collinwood and at Linndale. For trains traveling through Cleveland, this meant they had to change locomotives twice. Some express trains, like New York Central's 100-mph Chicago-New York City "Twentieth Century Limited", bypassed CUT by using the lakefront tracks. Express trains that originated in Cleveland, like New York Central's 90-mph Cleveland-Detroit "Mercury" departed Cleveland under steam power, but the locomotive was parked outside the station, south of Huron Road. In the mid-1940s, more than 100 passenger trains arrived and departed CUT each day.

 

The coming of diesel locomotives meant the end of the electric locomotive fleet in 1953. The overhead wires were removed above the railroad tracks. But the Cleveland Transit System "Rapid" opened for service in 1955, adding to the Shaker Rapid transit services, and keeping the "juice" flowing above its own tracks through CUT. But railroad service declined under the high cost of maintenance, governmental regulation, taxes, usage fees and labor costs at Cleveland Union Terminal. It and other privately owned stations could not compete with the lower cost of government owned and financed highways and airports.

 

The railroads saw the writing on the wall. Yet federal regulator would not let railroads like New York Central and others discontinue trains that were still popular yet lost money. So the railroad companies scheduled trains so they missed connections with other trains, operated them with as few as one car and jammed standees into them, put them into sidings to let slower freight trains pass, and even did not list certain trains on public timetables. So Amtrak was begun to take over the operation of railroads from the private sector. Congresspersons had great influence on what routes would be continued under Amtrak.

 

No Cleveland routes were urged by Ohio's Congressional delegation before Amtrak started operations on May 1, 1971. On that day, Cleveland lost trains to Columbus, Chicago, Indianapolis, Buffalo, New York City and cities in between. For a brief time, Amtrak used CUT for a Chicago-New York train that Ohio and New York state promised to financially support. New York did not support it so the train was withdrawn after less than a year of service.

 

The only train left at CUT was Erie-Lackawanna's remaining passenger train west of Port Jervis, NY -- the Cleveland-Youngstown commuter train. The reason it survived? E-L's corporate headquarters were in Terminal Tower, and many of E-L's executives and office workers used the train to get to/from work. It lasted until Jan. 14, 1977, shortly after Conrail absorbed E-L and relocated office workers to Philadelphia. That was the last railroad train to Cleveland Union Terminal.

 

After that, the Cleveland Union Terminal railroad tracks alongside the Rapid lines were pulled up and scrapped. Most of the overhead power line systems for the pre-1953 electric trains had been removed years earlier, except those shared by or otherwise still needed for the Rapid. And slowly the CUT rights of way and station has been gobbled up for other things.

 

Cleveland Union Terminal track layout at its peak:

 

 

 

Looking at the "guts" of CUT:

 

 

 

A CUT electric hauling a passenger train westbound across the Cuyahoga Valley viaduct to someplace like Chicago, St. Louis or Cincinnati. The photographer is standing where CTS will finish building its rapid transit tracks in 1955 (the work actually started in the 1920s):

 

 

 

One of the few steam-powered trains that served CUT -- New York Central's 90 mph Cleveland-Detroit streamliner called the "Mercury". It would reach Detroit's Michigan Central Station in about 2 hours and 45 minutes:

 

 

 

One of dozens of daily trains that paused at the west-side suburban station in Linndale to pick up passengers and drop off the electric locomotive for a steam-powered one:

 

 

 

In December 1967, a few months after I was born, New York Central's Chicagoan departed Cleveland on its run from New York to Chicago. There were more than 20 passenger trains a day between Chicago and East Coast in the 1950s, but was cut back by half by the mid-1960s. In December 1967, only six were left, plus trains to Columbus, Indianapolis, and Youngstown:

 

 

 

 

In 1971, this was one of the last pre-Amtrak trains to depart Cleveland Union Terminal, with the main post office at right. But a former airline executive took over the postal service in the mid-1960s and took all the mail contracts away from the railroads and gave them to the airlines by 1967:

 

 

 

Amtrak briefly used CUT for its "Lake Shore" which operated for less than one year, ending in 1972. This is the New York-Chicago train coming westbound across the CUT/CTS viaduct in the summer of 1971 and passing CTS's West 25th Station which was on the north side of Lorain Avenue at that time (see platform at left), photographed by Joseph D. Korman:

 

 

 

Erie-Lackawanna continued to run its weekdays-only Cleveland-Youngstown commuter train until 1977 (we have entire thread in the railroad section about this train and its route). This is the train picking up speed next to Broadway Avenue in 1971, where the main Post Office would relocate to from CUT in 1982:

 

 

 

This is the commuter train "mowing the lawn" on the east side of CUT in 1974:

 

 

Wow KJP, what a great summary! Very informative, thanks for taking the time to put that together.

I believe our local leaders sometime in the near future need to have a plan on how to best leverage the the IMO inevitable return of passenger rail to clevelland which is a logical gateway to the east coast. 

 

Cleveland is the X on the rail map

Chicago hub

 

Ohio hub system

 

 

Cleveland will be the HSR 150 MPH+ connection between Chicago and Pittsburgh and the most used node of the Ohio hub system. being a major transfer point on the future passenger network requires that Cleveland focuses on leveraging the 6.8 million trips that a 220mph link between Chicago and Cleveland, the 2.5 million trips A 110mph system between Cleveland and Cincinnati, and the 860,000 trips between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

 

that is roughly 10.4 million trips beginning or ending in a passenger rail station in Cleveland.  the question is how can the region best leverage this traffic into economic growth.

 

I will tell you dumping 10.4 million people into a  lake front station away from the Core of our Region transit hub at tower city does not offer the bang for the buck that a new passenger Rail station at tower city. 

 

building a new passenger rial corridor From Chicago that a 220mph connection will require easily 3-4 billion dollars to connect the rural line to a hypothetical station on the Cleveland lakefront. it could cost 1 -2 billion more to Redirect that connection into tower city and integrate the 220mph line with the Ohio hub network connections to Pittsburgh, buffalo, and Columbus. 

 

some way somehow, we have to unify all passenger rail plans into plan most beneficial to the region, and get our local leaders and stakeholders behind it. 

 

Cleveland needs a Vision just like Chicago's Union station master plan here .

 

the first step could be the lakefront inter-modal center,  and Amtrak improving service to it's existing station, either way it is back to the future with a new union station project.

 

Source

 

http://www.midwesthsr.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Midwest_Network_Benefits_Study_2012.pdf

 

http://www2.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Ohio%20Hub/Website/ordc/Ohio_Hub_Final_Docs/Final_Document_Rev_12_06_07/Executive_Summary_Full_Report.pdf

 

Added this picture to my post, above (with description of date, location, train):

 

Friday, 24 October 2014

Celebrating Terminal Tower's 85th train anniversary

rexnerCleveland[/member].com

 

Thursday marked the 85th anniversary of the first passenger train rolling into the Union Terminal on Cleveland's Public Square.

 

Here are seven facts and figures about the station, which hasn't served cross-country trains in years but remains the hub of the area's commuter rail service.

 

85:On Oct. 23, 1929 — 85 years ago — the first passenger train rolled into the Union Terminal beneath the Terminal Tower complex, which was still under construction.

 

Brothers O.P. and M.J. Van Sweringen boarded for a short ride with presidents of the Nickel Plate, Chesapeake & Ohio and Erie railroads. The front-page headline in the next day's Plain Dealer added emphasis with an exclamation point: ''Passenger Train Enters Terminal!''

 

READ MORE AT:

http://plaindealer.oh.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=079bbe416

Responding to a question from the North Coast Transportation Center thread....

 

It's a shame that access connections for Amtrak were not maintained over the course of the various renovations of the Tower City complex over the past 20-30 years.  The Tower City connection clearly has the most transformational potential.  Did the previous studies include any of the following alternatives:

 

Amtrak renovating or retrofitting  the excess track space on the Red line bridge that they are currently considering for a walking-bike trail?

Amtrak taking over the Red line bridge and re-routing The Red line down West 25th and into Tower City via the old streetcar right-of-way access on the lower level of the Detroit Superior bridge? 

 

Could either of these options trigger more funding if they were tied into redevelopment of the north end of Ohio City (west 25th, Detroit road, and a restored Franklin Circle) which has seen a lot of interest over the past couple of years?

 

Thanks in advance for your input!

 

Amtrak in 1984 studied routing its trains through Cleveland Union Terminal and found it would dramatically increase its costs from having to maintain a more elaborate station and several miles of access track, which it be would the only user. The longer, slower routing vs the lakefront tracks would also mean adding 25 minutes of run time to the Lake Shore Limited, then the only Amtrak train serving Cleveland.

 

Shortly after that report came out, Forest City Enterprises bought the Cleveland Union Terminal Co. which owned much of what is today Tower City Center as well as 17 miles of now-trackless railroad rights of way into the station. At least, FCE referred to that Amtrak report when deciding what to do with the railroad station track level of CUT/Tower City Center and the 17 miles of rights of way. At most, FCE may have requested the study. I have the study but can't find it in the foot-tall stack I have of all other studies done since the 1970s. Either way, it influenced FCE's decision to turn the entire track level of the station into parking and insert another level of parking in there, cutting the 25-foot overhead clearance for trains in half. FCE acquired the Tower City portion of the Cleveland Union Terminal Co. properties whereas GCRTA acquired the 17 miles of railroad rights of way, much of which has since been sold to other parties (the exceptions are the rights of way closest to Tower City).

 

In 1992, interest in 3C intercity rail, Cleveland-Pittsburgh and a possible commuter rail system grew, led by then-GCRTA GM Ron Tober. GCRTA requested a study of turning the former CUT coach yards (between Huron and Canal roads) into a station. That resulted in RL Banks conducting a study of a railroad station at Tower City as well as a walkway to the under-construction Gateway sports complex plus a Flats Trolley (using historic replica rail trolleys). RL Banks estimated the cost of railroad construction at $42 million (less property acquisition) and construction of station facilities at $11 million. The reason why this cost was so low was because the station was to be part of the Riverview Phase of Tower City to be built along and above the former CUT coach yards. Thus many accessways and support infrastructure would be funded by FCE for the Riverview development.

 

The RL Banks study was revisited in 1996 when GCRTA's plans for commuter rail got more serious and would require more significant track infrastructure to access the station from more directions. Also the Riverview phase was canceled shortly thereafter, so the costs of the station and pedestrian accessways would be solely attributed to the station project. The projected costs of a Tower City railroad station ballooned to $125 million. After that report came out, the only sites considered for a downtown station were along the lakefront.

 

Here's some graphics from the 1992 study....

 

 

Ron Tober was progressive in his views toward rail transit expansion... It's a shame that the powers that be took that to mean "extravagant" and ran him out of town in favor of the anti-rail Calabrese who better fits their paradigm. 

All Aboard Ohio ‏@AllAboardOhio  Jun 5

New York Central Train 322 to Columbus & Cincinnati departs WB over the Cleveland Union Terminal viaduct, June 1960.

http://www.clevelandmemory.com/speccoll/gamut/1983w/ctt/gamut9.html

Also posted these two pics in the Vintage Cleveland thread in the photo section....

 

Here's an evening shot from about 1950 of railroad passengers queuing at the top of stairs in Cleveland Union Terminal (or as my dad called it, simply "The Terminal") for one of two trains shown on the departure boards atop this stairwell (there were six stairwells leading to six platforms and 12 tracks). One train shown on the departure board for Track 20 (the track numbering included tracks below the rapid transit concourse) is the 5:55 p.m. eastbound departure of New York Central RR's "Interstate Express" to Boston via Buffalo where it exchanged rail cars with the Fifth Avenue Special to New York City. This was one of 15 passenger trains a day in each direction through Cleveland and Buffalo at speeds of 85 mph (thanks to automatic train stop signals, long since removed). The other station track had posted the 6:10 p.m. eastbound departure of the Erie Railroad's "Steel King" to Pittsburgh via Aurora, Warren and Youngstown. In 1950, there were six daily round trips between Cleveland and Youngstown, and most trains continued beyond. Most went to Pittsburgh but one went to Jersey City, NJ via the New York's Southern Tier "Scenic Route." Despite an incredible amount of steel-related rail traffic within and through Warren, Niles, Youngstown, Struthers, New Castle, Aliquippa and McKee's Rocks into the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Station (today's Station Square), this train managed to travel to Pittsburgh in 2 hours and 40 minutes.

 

CUT-concourse-c1950-2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

 

This 24-hour food counter in Cleveland Union Terminal was quick, cheap, convenient and friendly for passengers connecting between trains or riding trains without a diner, lounge, buffet car or automat like Erie Railroad's commuter train departing at 5:20 p.m. Monday-Friday to Youngstown and all stations in between. That was the last railroad service to Union Terminal, ending on Jan. 14, 1977 as a Conrail train. Five years later, the middle of the Cleveland-Youngstown was removed and the rest has rusted away.

 

CUT-lunchcounter-c1950 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

I don't know if this was ever posted, some wrong facts (it was Woolworth that was taller when it was topped off), but interesting factoids:

 

http://www.fiberglass-afi.com/press-4.htm

Why was Cleveland Union Terminal built on Public Square, and why was it built as a through station? It came at the suggestion of the federal government.......

 

http://www.clevelandmemory.com/speccoll/gamut/1983w/ctt/gamut3.html

Back in 1980 for the 50th anniversary of the christening of the Cleveland Union Terminal project, the PD re-issued this special insert it originally published in June 1930 but in an oversized, soft-cover booklet. My father bought one and I read it and re-read cover-to-cover when I was 13 years old. When my father died seven years ago, I saved all of my father's books on railroads and Cleveland. Somehow the PD book eluded my efforts to save it. But I'm glad the Cleveland Public Library saved it and digitized it. They posted it last April. Here it is. It's an historical treasure...

 

https://cplorg.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/collection/p128201coll0/id/3888/download

 

BTW, see the bottom of Page 6 for the Ontario Street building plan. These buildings were proposed to be built above the railroad and rapid transit tracks, using air rights -- a then-innovative approach to urban development.

I don't know if restoration of passenger rail service into Cleveland Union Terminal (Tower City) will come up for discussion as Amtrak proposes to make Cleveland a mini-hub and CVSR's extension to downtown is weighed, but it should come up for discussion for both. RTA is about to undergo a major renovation of the deck of its Cuyahoga Viaduct. With Bedrock Real Estate considering a Tower City Riverview phase, this may be the last opportunity for restoring passenger railroad service at Tower City/CUT.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

I don't know if restoration of passenger rail service into Cleveland Union Terminal (Tower City) will come up for discussion as Amtrak proposes to make Cleveland a mini-hub and CVSR's extension to downtown is weighed, but it should come up for discussion for both. RTA is about to undergo a major renovation of the deck of its Cuyahoga Viaduct. With Bedrock Real Estate considering a Tower City Riverview phase, this may be the last opportunity for restoring passenger railroad service at Tower City/CUT.

 

 

 

 

Are you suggesting building a new railroad station? Or am I miss-interpretting your picture? Because I don't see why we would decide to do that instead of just restoring service to Tower City. It isn't like every shop is full and the space is too valuable for a couple more rail stops. What is the impediment to using the old stations? Am I missing something? I apologize if this was all covered earlier in the thread. 

41 minutes ago, Ethan said:

 

Are you suggesting building a new railroad station? Or am I miss-interpretting your picture? Because I don't see why we would decide to do that instead of just restoring service to Tower City. It isn't like every shop is full and the space is too valuable for a couple more rail stops. What is the impediment to using the old stations? Am I missing something? I apologize if this was all covered earlier in the thread. 

 

This thread has many great posts to answer that question.  In summary - back when it was a train station, there were tracks where Ken is showing tracks.  There were also more tracks further under Terminal Tower.  When the Federal Courthouse was built, it blocked the rail right-of-way, meaning that it is not possible for new rail to follow the old path.  The building should have been built above the RoW in the air rights, like all the other building in that area.  But they felt it added too much cost.  Because of this, to bring passenger rail in would require building a new approach around the south of that building, as shown in @KJP's drawing above.  Ken has previously estimated this would cost $100M. 

 

Here are the highlights of this thread, which I think will answer your question:

 

What the new train routes would be if Amtrak was moved to Tower City:

 

Ken put LOTS of details in this post:

 

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

I don't know if restoration of passenger rail service into Cleveland Union Terminal (Tower City) will come up for discussion as Amtrak proposes to make Cleveland a mini-hub and CVSR's extension to downtown is weighed, but it should come up for discussion for both. RTA is about to undergo a major renovation of the deck of its Cuyahoga Viaduct. With Bedrock Real Estate considering a Tower City Riverview phase, this may be the last opportunity for restoring passenger railroad service at Tower City/CUT.

 

 

This is a fascinating concept.  But if we're going to leverage government spending on rail to new Cleveland infrastructure, wouldn't your land bridge / multi-modal concept provide more bang for the buck? (Conclusion: no, no it would not. See my thoughts below)

 

Thinking out loud:

New rail at Tower City advantages:

- Direct connection from passenger rail to Red and Blue and Green lines

- CVSR downtown extension would share the station (no way to get CVSR to lakefront station)

- West bound trains use high level bridge, meaning the NS bridge at the mouth of the Cuyahoga doesn't have to close for every passenger train. (This is HUGE, especially if we were ever able to add commuter rail.)

- Tower City is way more beautiful than anything that would be built new

- With Bedrock wanting to develop that area, it might enable "creative financing" for some of the infrastructure.

- Whoever owns the casino hopefully recognizes that transit brings customers, and therefore might contribute funding.

- Multi-modal transit connections could really help the Tower City business incubator concept

- Easy access to the arena and baseball stadium

- Future commuter rail - existing track route on East side would make it easier to include a University Circle station as compared to the Lakefront tracks, which would require a brand new and presumably very expensive connection between the tracks that cross, grade-separated, near E79th and Buckeye.

Disadvantage: Lose new Red Line Greenway. (This would be a fight.)

 

New Lakefront Landbridge / Multi-modal station advantages:

- Leverage federal funding for transit to build land bridge that is desperately needed and would otherwise be much harder to fund.

- Transit hub at Convention Center becomes selling point for future conventions.

- Tourist attractions close to transit hub.

- Maybe helps create political will for extending Waterfront line as a downtown loop.

Disadvantage: no direct connection to Red Line

 

OK, moving passenger rail to Tower City is clearly the better choice, at least in absence of detailed cost estimates.

35 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

When the Federal Courthouse was built, it blocked the rail right-of-way, meaning that it is not possible for new rail to follow the old path.  The building should have been built above the RoW in the air rights, like all the other building in that area.  But they felt it added too much cost.  Because of this, to bring passenger rail in would require building a new approach around the south of that building, as shown in @KJP's drawing above.  Ken has previously estimated this would cost $100M. 

Wow! That is an astonishing lack of foresight! Even for the city of Cleveland. I'm sure I'm late to the party in being annoyed by this, but the city dropped the ball when they allowed that to happen. (It's a shame, because I really like the Federal Courthouse building, architecturally, it's a very attractive building). Thanks for clearing that up for me @Boomerang_Brian! I now have something to do some research on. 

Amtrak conducted a report in 1984 (I still have a copy of it!) in which they were approached by Forest City Enterprises about possibly rerouting their Lake Shore Limited to serve their proposed Tower City development. Amtrak found the routing would increase the running time by about 25 minutes and they would be wholly responsible for maintaining something like 15 miles of track for just one train a day in each direction. It wasn't worth doing. What Amtrak is proposing now is very different.

So going westbound, they would follow the RTA right-of-way until somewhere around the Detroit- W98 station, where the tracks intersect with the current route?

3 hours ago, bjk said:

So going westbound, they would follow the RTA right-of-way until somewhere around the Detroit- W98 station, where the tracks intersect with the current route?

I think that would be an option; however, if you check out @KJP’s post from Dec 20, 2010 that I linked a few posts up, you’ll see a slightly different route. Roughly where W 25th crosses the rail RoW, there is a line with a more south-westerly path towards Lynndale. Hopefully Ken can shed some light on why that was discussed at that time. 

Commuter trains between Lorain-Cleveland would have traveled west along the NS track through Lakewood. That would have taken the routing past the Detroit-West 98th area. If the commuter trains were lighter weight and had dual-mode (electric and diesel, or electric from overhead wire or battery), the trains could have switched over from the NS tracks west of RTA's West Boulevard station to use the RTA Red Line east of that station.

This might be another ignorant question, but I don't understand why the parking garage under Tower City can't be renovated to become a train station. I just walked through it, and it seems like other than the cost of removing the the second level of the parking garage, it could be renovated to add one or two more train lines without too much difficulty. The routing onto the red line bridge doesn't look like it would be an issue from this point. 

The West entrance into the former Cleveland Union Terminal was blocked by the construction of the Stokes Federal Courthouse. The Waterfront Line narrowed the approach as well, although a second railroad track deck could be added above a short piece of the Waterfront Line's inbound track ramp. The courthouse is the real killer to using the old station area… unless someone wants to relocate for RTA the Red Line below West 25th and the Detroit-Superior bridge to get into Tower City that way. Then we could put railroad tracks where the RTA tracks are now on the Cuyahoga viaduct. But that could add anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion to the cost.

Well, I'm sure you're more knowledgeable about this than me, but walking around down there, it definitely seems like there is space to add another rail line, and I'd bet on there being space for at least two more lines. 

 

Honestly, I'm not sure the courthouse blocks all that much, given how close it is to the start of the red line bridge. (EDIT: by which I mean the level change for the waterfront line). Maybe the line that would exist closest to the entrance of the parking garage, would merge in that space, but the lines that did/would/could exist closer to the existing lines look like they did/would/could merge far sooner. The courthouse is not really the issue, given that the waterfront line already blocks most of that space. 

 

I guess if the courthouse and the waterfront line weren't there you could accommodate more lines merging later, but how many more lines does Cleveland really need? As a separate question, how many lines would the people who read this forum like to see added?

 

The pictures/video I took aren't very helpful, and one video wouldn't load, but I included them anyway. 

 

Edit: double posted to include video. 

 

Edited March 13, 20214 yr by Ethan