Write to Mayor Frank Jackson, with a copy to Councilman Cimperman, asking that they tell ODOT to "start over." There are rumblings that the Strickland Administration may tell ODOT to do just that.

Great article, KJP... as always.

I can't help but wonder, though, it seemed like it was a little short.

Was some of it edited out?

sometimes i forgot to notice if the article was written by KJP, so....um....what they said, "well said sir!"

Awesome article, KJP!  "Start over" needs to be the message, and this time, we need to begin by having an urban planning based approach to how we want the Innerbelt to serve our Downtown and adjacent neighborhoods.

Thanks all.

 

Great article, KJP... as always.

I can't help but wonder, though, it seemed like it was a little short.

Was some of it edited out?

 

Yes, I chopped it down. It was originally a "Train of Thought" column in the All Aboard Ohio newsletter. But IMHO, it needed to be read by more people. So I used it for my Write of Way column in Sun. I didn't chop it much, but at 25 column inches, it was still a little long for Sun (20 is typical). Fortunately, it ran without further deletions. But the original Train of Thought column was about 30 column inches.

could you post the original version? It is really a great article.

I like the Sun version better. It's tighter and gets to the point more quickly. But, here's the original Train of Thought column...

________________

 

Train of Thought

 

  As one of the state's oldest urban interstate highways, downtown Cleveland's Inner Belt harkens back to a dark era in the history of American cities. The 1950s was a time when men like New York's Robert Moses or his Cleveland counterpart Cuyahoga County Engineer Albert Porter unabashedly sought to shred the nation's urban fabric.

  For more than a thousand years, cities worldwide thrived as places for people to meet – to conduct commerce, share ideas and make acquaintances. And as strange as it may seem today, much of that exchange happened in city streets where the pedestrian was king. There were street markets, endless storefronts, parades, rallies, speeches and ever-present conversations carried out between someone on the sidewalk and another in an upstairs window or balcony. The arrival of the streetcar only increased the pedestrian activity.

  To people like Albert Porter, that urban fabric needed shredding. He and others bought into General Motors' vision of "The City of Tomorrow" unveiled in 1939 at the New York World's Fair. In that same year, Paul Hoffman, president of the Studebaker Corp., was among the corporate titans who explained the need for the new urban vision. "If we are to have the full use of automobiles, cities must be remade," he said.

  Like his allies, Porter, the county's engineer from 1946 to 1977, went about the business of ripping up rail transit services, blocking construction of a voter-approved downtown subway, tearing down urban neighborhoods and replacing them with a patchwork of highways. Back then, it was reasoned that the best way to save a city neighborhood was to demolish it.

  Nearly a decade ago, the Ohio Department of Transportation announced it needed to rebuild the Inner Belt and was prepared to spend handsomely to do it. Downtown Cleveland's portion of Interstate 90 was one of the oldest, most congested and dangerous sections of interstate in Ohio.

  Planning for the project began with so much promise, but is ending as a symbol of all that is wrong with ODOT.

  Then-Cleveland Planning Director Hunter Morrison said it was an opportunity to shift ODOT dollars back to the city from the suburbs and restore urban neighborhoods that were sliced up by the highway two generations earlier. ODOT said it was openly encouraging any and all ideas for redesigning the highway.

  Some proposed adding lanes to the Inner Belt. Others suggested eliminating the highway's closely spaced ramps. Some wanted to shrink the land-gobbling Central Interchange to avail land for restoring neighborhoods lost to its spaghetti bowl of pavement. A few wanted I-90 relocated through University Circle, an idea that later morphed into a boulevard project called the Opportunity Corridor.

  There were non-highway ideas as well, but none were included by ODOT. The only exception was a cosmetic expansion of express bus services to suburban park-and-ride lots.

  More transformative solutions like commuter rail service were rejected by ODOT as too expensive. A hiking/biking path across the Inner Belt's Central Viaduct was tossed aside, even though 25 percent of Cleveland households don't have cars. Extending the dead-end, light-rail Waterfront Line to create a downtown rail loop also was rejected because it wouldn't affect the Inner Belt's dominant source of traffic – suburbanites commuting downtown.

  And, at a brainstorming session when EcoCity Cleveland's David Beach proposed adding downtown housing units so more people could walk to work, ODOT officials appeared dumfounded. They stood silently as though Mr. Beach was an alien and had just spoken in his native tongue. ODOT wasn't in the business of altering land-use, they countered. Every project ODOT does alters land use, replied Mr. Beach to deaf ears.

  Furthermore, ODOT never considered massing all of the non-highway options into a single package to determine their collective impact on improving the city's economic, social and environmental conditions. It only counted the people driving their cars (and paying their gas taxes). Worse for Cleveland, ODOT placed greater emphasis on reducing access ramps to the central business district and pushing the Inner Belt's congestion onto city streets.

  ODOT won't be fostering a populous, walkable, 24-hour downtown laced with bicycle paths, looped by a light-rail line, fed by thousands of daily commuter-train riders and accessed by motorists from a rebuilt but de-emphasized downtown highway.

  Instead, ODOT will spend $1.5 billion over the next 15 years so that motorists can drive more quickly from one side of Cleveland to the other. The highway will be wider, have a more complex labyrinth of ramps along it, be a more significant barrier between urban neighborhoods and result in the demolition of 19 buildings.

  Albert Porter is probably rolling in his grave, laughing his derrière off.

 

END

I just sent my email to the Mayors office to voice my displeasure with this plan

That article belongs in the West Shoreway thread, as it unrelated to the Inner Belt.

 

However, here is an item that belongs in the Inner Belt thread......

________________

 

The Cleveland Innerbelt Aesthetics and Urban Design Subcommittee will convene for their first meeting on March 29 at 8:30 a.m. at NOACA. 

 

This subcommittee is an advisory committee to the Ohio Department of Transportation and will be co-chaired by Bob Brown of the City of Cleveland and Craig Hebebrand of ODOT District 12. Skip Smallridge with Crosby, Schlessinger and Smallridge of Boston and Paul Volpe with City Architecture of Cleveland will provide an overview of the study process that will identify and develop aesthetic and urban design opportunities throughout Cleveland's Innerbelt Corridor.

 

Please contact us with any questions.

 

Thank you,

Lora Hummer

Public Information Officer

Ohio Department of Transportation

5500 Transportation Boulevard

Garfield Heights, Ohio 44125-5308

216.584.2007

^I reposted the Shoreway article in the West shoreway thread.  Forgot to note that here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4526.90

Two letters to the editor I sent to the PD:

 

1)  Sunday's article "Transporting development", while hitting many positive notes, leaves more to be desired.  Transit Oriented Development is not a new idea and is long overdue in this city/region.  If you look to vibrant cities, they boast of great mass transit and development (residential and retail) near it.  The Cleveland area has been taught to be so auto centric over the years that it is hard to sell the public on mass transit.  People will travel to NYC or Chicago and use their transit systems , but for some reason are hesitant to use it here.  With the rising fuel costs, this is an attitude that needs to change. 

  I also believe the attitude of RTA needs to change as well.  RTA needs to look to the past to see a better future.  It is a shame that the Cleveland subway system was never developed in the 1950's, the street cars were  taken out of commission, and  our commuter rail system hasn't been expanded throughout the city.  We have a great bus system, but buses still wait in traffic.   RTA states that rail costs $100 million a mile, yet I see other cities such as Portland, St Louis, Pittsburgh, and Charlotte doing such projects at a fraction of that cost.  Cincinnati and Columbus are now actively looking to start up commuter rail and street car systems.  Cleveland should look to include these things in new projects that are slated (West Shoreway Project), now is the time to do things right. 

  I challenge RTA to do a public opinion poll. The subject should be what alternate transportation mode would get us out of our cars.  Buses and glorified buses (BRT) or light rail and street cars?  I have a feeling RTA would be in for a rude awakening!

 

2)  I find it interesting that ODOT finds the need to demolish so many buildings in order to expand the highway system in downtown Cleveland.  It seems that ODOT hasn't changed it's style of construction since the 1960's!  Why must ODOT always cut a wide swath of land with giant swooping green space (which must be maintained and cannot be used by the public) in oder to build a highway system?  For a downtown area this is VERY poor urban planning!  When I look at urban highways in other states, I see cement retaining walls with adjacent access roads to save space.  In the case of the Cleveland inner belt "trench", why would ODOT not look at making it a true trench, put a cap over the top of it, and actually take back land for use?  Some projects may cost more at the start up, but in the long run, it makes more efficient use of the land.  It's time we start demanding progressive and sensible ideas from ODOT!

 

  The first one is being considered for print and the second one I asked my friend to sign for me since the odds of having two considered for print in one week are pretty slim.

 

JDD, KJP, and others:

 

Great letters and columns!  All need to be heard by a wider audience. Any interest in collaboratively writing an editorial to be published in the PD as well as online sources like gcbl, bfd, and other new media?

 

A great free tool for online collaborative writing exists at http://www.writeboard.com

 

Also, in regards to improving the quality of life - this is Mayor Jackson's #1 priority - "creating a city of choice"

Good stuff JDD.

 

On another note, here is a transcript of a conversation with Flats Oxbow Stakeholders recently published in their newsletter:

 

Oxbow Action 402

30 MARCH 2007

 

 

The following communications have recently transpired regarding the FLY-OVER vs. AT GRADE

 

“Craig and Bonnie, I wanted to be clear that as we discussed at the Innerbelt meeting convened by Senator Voinovich, Downtown Cleveland Alliance strongly opposes the Ontario fly-over alternative.  If we need to bring more stakeholders to the table to reinforce that position, I’d be happy to do so.  While I greatly respect the Mr. Carpenter’s efforts and perspective, we firmly believe the negative impact of the fly-over to downtown Cleveland far exceeds any parochial benefits it may provide to the buildings in question.  Please let me know if you need anything further on this issue.  Thanks, joe.” 

Joseph A. Marinucci, President and CEO of Downtown Cleveland Alliance. 

 

“As a follow up to the emails from Scott Carpenter and Joe Marinucci, I would like to share with you the position of the Historic Gateway Neighborhood.

 

On behalf of the stakeholders of Historic Gateway Neighborhood, we oppose the Ontario Fly Over proposal at the intersection of Ontario and Carnegie.  The Historic Gateway Neighborhood Corporation is a non-profit community development corporation with members representing residents, restaurants, retailers, entertainment venues and the sports teams.

 

This proposal will have a negative impact on the traffic using Ontario during rush hour and when events are letting out.  Additionally, the proposal will have negative impact on the aesthetics in an important entry point into downtown.  The bridge will block views of Jacobs Field entering downtown and it will block the views of the Lorain Carnegie Bridge pylons – a cultural icon and historic resource in Cleveland.

 

HGN is prepared to work with all relevant parties to develop an at-grade solution for this intersection that is beneficial to the greater whole.  Feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss this further.”  Thomas Stransky, Project Director, Historic Gateway Neighborhood Corporation

 

“While the Fire Museum and Education Center does not directly impact economic development through employment, our educational services will have a tremendous social impact in reducing the economic and emotional impacts caused by fires in Cleveland and Northeast Ohio. In a 24-month period ending last December, 44 Clevelanders were killed in fires. This represents both a significant increase and a growing trend in fire deaths in our region. Our primary objective is to provide a first-class regional fire museum and education center to dramatically increase fire safety programming and help reduce the numbers of fire deaths and injuries in Northeast Ohio. To meet our objective we need your support and all those listed in the cc to ensure that our historic facility remains a viable venue for this very important objective. If your CDC and others cannot support the Ontario fly-over ramp I hope you will consider carefully and creatively solutions that meet your aesthetic desires while ensuring our needs for unfettered access from Carnegie Avenue and protection of our historic buildings. Without your support for our needs the Fire Museum and Education Center will be dramatically delayed and/or hindered in its primary objective, to help reduce fire deaths and injuries in Cleveland and the region.

 

With more than 1,000 members and many community leaders and foundations backing our cause, I look forward to our working together and I trust you will consider me and our organization a willing and creative participant in resolving these issues.“

 

-end-

 

^Musky, can you explain a bit about what the Ontario fly-over is?  I'm assuming these objections have more to do with the bridge location and the subsequent ramps that would be needed in the area of Ontario and Carnegie? 

 

I had thought that the bridge location issue had gone away and the complaints were more focused now on the trench, but I'm glad that the relevant stakeholders are still pushing for a better bridge location and desing.

^ It is the ramp that was a last minute proposal by ODOT that will utilize the road west of Ontario Pointe (which, by the way, has a new for sale sign post on it) as a staging area of sorts for a new ramp that will "fly-over" the land that is now employee parking for the Jacobs Filed.

The major objection is the impact the new ramp will have on the Fireman's Museum as it will severely limit the amount of visiting traffic that can access the museum. They had no problems with the Innerbelt plans previously because there was no real impact on their business, But this new proposal has gotten them all riled up.

 

What an abortion that whole ODOT plan is. It totally ignores the global economic, environmental and energy vital signs for the future. When are these guys going to realize that the world is rapidly changing?

I say sometime between Fall 2008 and the year 2012 when (according to the Mayans), a new cycle will begin.

ODOT RAMP CLOSURES @ W.14TH & ONTARIO

 

Meeting April 19 @ 6:00 PM

 

Councilman Cimperman invites you to attend a meeting regarding the Ontario Ramp Closure community meeting which is scheduled for 9am on April 11, 2007 at the Old Stone Church. (There will also be another meeting regarding the W.14th Street ramp closure on April 19th at 6pm at Pilgrim Church.)

If you have any questions please call Marina @ 664-2691.

 

Thank you,

 

Marina Marquez-Zenkov

Executive Assistant to Councilman Joe Cimperman

Ward 13

About a week ago, the Innerbelt Plan Aesthetics and Urban Design Subcommittee held its first monthly meeting (with about 6 or 7 to go).

 

Here some notes from that meeting:

 

Innerbelt Aesthetics Subcommittee Meeting

Thursday, March 29 2007

NOACA

 

 

• Introductions

• This is not just an exercise in design, but also in development opportunities

 

• There are various preliminary studies and processes ongoing right now – looking for final approval Spring 2008.

 

• There will likely be 5 more meetings – 1 a month.

 

Skip Smallridge:

Went over the maps on the wall with the highlighted typologies:

• Yellow – city streets/at grade

• Green – bridge

• Blue – trench

• Brown – ramps

 

Overview of the design elements the subcommittee will be going over:

• Walls

• Bridges

• Fences

• Piers

• Viaducts

• Streetscapes

• Infield landscaping

• Decking

• Signs

• Lighting

 

Paul Volpe:

 

Processes

 

• The curve:

o Active industry mostly on the eastern portion

o The area will gain land and loose access

 

• The Trench:

o Same – make proposed access points more viable

 

• Interchange:

o Same, but with a few more access points

 

• Bridge/Ridge:

o Same

 

(Paul Alsenas commented on how this process should have been done 3 years ao.)

 

Land Use Walk Through

(Walk through of the various “districts” to discuss various design elements and development opportunities)

 

[note: the first Innerbelt viaduct construction is set to begin in 2010, the second viaduct in 2022]

 

Curve:

What is the gateway to the city? Is the bridge located (40th?) the gateway or should it be the rebuilt 55th Street Bridge (which is part of the project)

There is a large parcel that will be available for development west of the curve. Should this be kept as greenspace or be made available for development? If it is developed, the choices of land use are limited due to access. The decision should wait until Burke has completed their master plan. It is possible a corporate headquarters, or an airport related function could go there; however, because of the high visibility of the location, anything that is built there should be architecturally significant.

 

Trench:

Half of the trench could be capped.  If capped, will the new areas be kept green ort constructed to support development (Prospect and Euclid being the likely candidates for development, i.e., High Street in Columbus)

[Joe Marinucci suggested a day trip be made to Columbus to view High Street and Cincinnati to view their freeway reconstruction]

There will be significant land made available to CSU for development of student/market rate housing or parking.

There will be significant walled areas. How can these be made to look less fortress-like? Tiered, with plantings? Similar to I-90 in Lakewood?

 

Interchange:

There needs to be strong effort made to make the areas where pedestrians walk (specifically under bridges) as welcoming and well-lit as possible; especially if development south of the Innerbelt is proposed.

The areas immediately adjacent to the interchange should not be fenced in to prevent homeless from making the area theirs. Additionally, the fences make it harder for ODOT to cut the grass and end up being nets for garbage. We should look making the more secluded areas into bio-retention basins. Everyone strongly agreed this was a good idea.

 

Tremont:

Every effort should be made to make the area under the bridge as pedestrian friendly as possible – year-round. Make the space programmable. Make it well lit. Possible relief parking for adjacent restaurants and festivals.

 

12:30 PM

 

EDIT: (Forgot the links to the presentations)

 

 

Skip Smallridge's Presentation http://www.innerbelt.org/Presentations/2007-03-29%20PRESENTATION-Smallridge.pdf

 

Paul Volpe's Presentation http://www.innerbelt.org/Presentations/2007-03-29%20PRESENTATION-Volpe.pdf

Downtown bridge project can't wait

BY SARAH HOLLANDER | [email protected]

April 10, 2007

 

CLEVELAND - Three popular Inner Belt ramps in downtown and Tremont will be closed at times this summer for repairs to a dangerously deteriorating bridge.

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation plans to replace a 435-foot stretch of Interstate 90 eastbound between Ontario and East Ninth streets. Work could begin as early as mid-June and last for up to two months...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/04/downtown_bridge_project_cant_w.html

http://www.cleveland.com/innerbelt/images/map1_0411.gif

^COOL!!!  Just in time for baseball season.....

^just in time to tell people to take the rapid.

I did see KJP and some RTA personnel working underneath those exit ramps to weaken the structures. God Bless the mass transit manifesto!

I did see KJP and some RTA personnel working underneath those exit ramps to weaken the structures. God Bless the mass transit manifesto!

 

those guys have been working underneath 90/above the rapid for about the last 6 weeks or so. Just noticed today that they aren't there anymore

Interesting to see the continued infighting. I hope that Menn's work will be looked at again, more closely...

 

 

From today's PD ... http://www.cleveland.com/artsandevents/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1176539819101780.xml&coll=2

 

Out of the loop on the Inner Belt

 

Saturday, April 14, 2007

Steven Litt

Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation has decided to build a $260 million bridge over the Cuyahoga River that a highly regarded engineer says is ugly and more expensive than it needs to be.

 

The firm the state selected to design the I-90 bridge hired Swiss engineer Christian Menn to help with the work. Menn says that the designs he proposed are more attractive and that some of them could be less expensive than the one the state finally selected. But he says his alternatives didn't get a fair hearing...

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

 

[email protected], 216-999-4136

 

I wonder why the original designs would have been "hard for local contractors to build"?  Are our local builders THAT inept?  interesting....

I did see KJP and some RTA personnel working underneath those exit ramps to weaken the structures. God Bless the mass transit manifesto!

 

Almost funny, especially since I also had some of "those thoughts" during the whole signature bridge debate a couple years ago. But, alas, I quickly dismissed "those thoughts" since my sister commutes into downtown daily on that bridge. So don't anyone else get any similar crazy thoughts!

 

Plus, after my last two experiences on RTA, I don't think I'd want anyone else to ride it right now because it's not very user friendly. Would a few construction reroute signs that are actually visible on Public Square hurt for crying out loud?

Sweet Jesus what's wrong with our Motherland?!  HONESTLY!  These morons that b*tch about everything that's wrong with Cleveland and Ohio are the reason that things aren't as good as they should be!  We are trapped in this time warp and it's NO WONDER why so many young professionals choose to relocate somewhere else-anywhere else that appears to be progressive.  Retail isn't the most important thing but why do we get everything years or even decades later than other places?  God, Ikea isn't a necessity but we made a huge deal about it possibly coming here.  Metro Paris has about 4-5 Ikeas!  I'm sure you could drive 1 hr in each direction and find on in California. How long did it take to get Sephora?  Crate and Barrel?  The entire metro area had 1 Aldo (2 now?...)?!  Come on...  Let's not forget the 1 Whole Foods in the burbs too!  These aren't the defining pieces of city but a lack of these basic things and people begin to wonder!  And these are crappy, watered down, suburban style stores too!  The hoopla for Filene's was rather pathetic, too.  Come on people!  It makes you wonder how we will one day turn the switch and wake up with some credible places downtown.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be pesimistic, I'm not one of them but it's things like the Innerbelt, rapid transit, the Shoreway, waterfront development, downtown, schoosl...  GOD!  Sorry for the rant but it's so annoying living in Chicago and then reading the petty sh*t that goes on in Cleveland.  Chicago was just award the US bid for the 2016 games...Well there's NO reason we can't be a viable canidate for the 2036-40 games (if our world is still aroun) except for a handful of individuals that need to shipped to Siberia.  :shoot:  I know that I don't need to complain to you all--I'm preaching to the choir here, but what the hell! 

 

I want to come back Home and help make things better.  I know better days lie ahead for Cleveland and her people.  Why was Cleveland what it was +/-60 years ago?  There are only a few ingredients into making a very vibrant and efficient city.  Everything else is bullsh*t that only dillutes the valuable components. 

 

I'm a fan of analogies and here's my latest.  Take a little cup of espresso that you might drink in a cafe in Paris.  It's so simple yet so amazingly delicious.  Then you have our crappy coffee.  We try to make things so quick and simple yet in the end, we destroy what is truely precious--what is to be desired.  Or we overload it with syrups and crap--but in the end, it's the same crappy coffee.  We beat around the bush and get nowhere.

 

God, think of our potential!  We can be the medical capital of the world, there's the biotech potential, too.  We also can be innovators when it comes to alternative energy.  We have the lake and it's wind/water.  We're lucky to be an older/denser city which is a plus in transforming the city into a city of the future--the opposite future of $8.00/gas that Dallas and Phoenix can entertain.

 

What are we waiting for?!  Again, this is a rhetorical question and not aimed at anyone on UO, but I needed to vent! I think we all want to ask our "leaders" the same questions! "What are you smoking?  Because I DON'T want any of that!"

 

Please don't take me as a Debbie Downer.  I am coming home after 5 years of college in Chicago.  I do love Cleveland.  Just not a lot of her people. 

so disappointing.

cle2032, I'm in the same boat as you...but I only have one more year of school until I can try and make a difference.  (biochemistry major as well to go along with your biotech potential)

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

to stay on topic..

Menn says the company the state chose to design the bridge used his famous name to win the $22 million contract and then ignored his input. The 81-year-old engineer now says he wants nothing more to do with the project.

 

81!  Geez...talk about the need for fresh Clevelanders and new ideas.  But he also was around during Cleveland's prime 50 -60 years ago, so maybe we should listen to him...  In all seriousness though, it's great that he got ODOT and the rest of the community to take one last look before we build something with so very much of our tax dollars.

 

This is a very broad question, but...

 

What are some other age ranges and time spent on the job for all the other city planners and decision makers?  (I still love Stark's quote about "out with the Old Guard and in with the new".)

cle2032 and Murray I feel you guys. It seems like it takes years more than in other places to get anything done in Cleveland and I believe as well as others that its the old guard in politics that wants to cling to its power even if that means bringing Cleveland down with them. Get rid of them and bring in people with fresh ideas that have nothing to loose by sharing information, ideas and power.

 

I to have one year of school left and plan to return to Cleveland. I hope to rebuild some of the rundown parts of the city.

:-o  There's a group of us (Murray Hill/Mov2Ohio) ?!?!?!  :clap:  Hopefully we all can get together at the June 2nd UO Meet?!  Maybe UO can be the new mafia and turn things around the way the Daley's have transformed Chicago.  They have that city in the palm of their hands.  At the click of a button, it's done! 

 

Anyways, I look forward to meeting you guys!  Good luck finishing up the semester (or quarter, depending where you go to school!)

 

 

Maybe UO can be the new mafia and turn things around the way the Daley's have transformed Chicago.  They have that city in the palm of their hands.  At the click of a button, it's done! 

 

I wish that were the case (and mafia? What the hell?!?). The CTA's elevated rail system needs billions in repairs, a planned consolidated railway station as part of a second rail loop for downtown has languished, a light-rail downtown circulator never got built, plans for nonstop CTA trains from downtown to O'Hare have been talked about for years, Meigs Field remains an airport despite the mayor's desire to convert it for public use (park, redevelopment, etc.), the city pissed away its $1.83 billion windfall from leasing the Chicago Skyway to pay debts rather than do something economically catalytic, and other stalled projects or missteps I may not be aware of.

 

Don't get me wrong, Chicago has lots of cool stuff that Cleveland doesn't have, but it sounds to me like there's a little too much "grass is greener on the other side" phenomenon going on here. Let's recognize that this isn't always the case.

Don't get me wrong, Chicago has lots of cool stuff that Cleveland doesn't have, but it sounds to me like there's a little too much "grass is greener on the other side" phenomenon going on here. Let's recognize that this isn't always the case.

 

AMEN BROTHA KJP!  AMEN!! :clap:

I was talking to my cousin last week who is an engineer working for the county engineer.  He told me two interesting things.  One, everyone in his office thinks that repairing the old bridge is a terrible decision, but it was more or less mandated by City Hall because of the promise to not destroy the church.

 

Two, at this point all interbelt discussions are becoming simply academic, because there is not enough money to do even the minimum alternative and construction prices continue to rise.  So unless there is additional funding from Washington or Columbus.....all that will be done are the types of repairs detailed above.  He also said the westside shoreway project is also getting close to not having money to do the job.

 

But, I am not sure how much of his job is specifically tasked to the interbelt, but I know he does a lot of roadway and bridge work.  He is in the office, so I guess I am just passing on water cooler talk.

I don't think the "establishment" is ever going to be able to do what we want it to, and I feel we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we expect that it can. Frankly, I've reached the point where I couldn't give two tiddlywinks what Bob Stark, Frank Jackson or anyone at the state level does.

 

In my opinion, real positive change is going to have to come from us. We just need to keep injecting our opinions in the decision-making process and supporting ideas and projects that we find exciting. There are tons of awesome things happening around here, so don't get down. There are small businesses, restaurants, shops, etc. that would be cool in ANY CITY. Those people live here!

 

I wouldn't call ourselves regressive merely for the fact that we didn't land an IKEA or the depressing fact that RTA and ODOT aren't expanding rail service. Does an IKEA improve our standard of living? It doesn't for me, at least.

 

As far as this project goes, I can't hardly keep on top of it. Exit ramps, ugly bridges, old buildings. The whole thing confuses me. Why does it have to be such a reinvention of the wheel? Why does the bridge have to be so fancy? Why doesn't ODOT listen to the people who live here.

 

If anything, this is symptom of how messed up the state is.

Hopefully being that this is the biggest ODOT project and so many people unhappy with what ODOT has currently proposed, Strickland will go ahead and do a full review of the project.  I'd like to see the bridge use new lightweight cement technologies like ECC and UHPC and have that bridge further South of the current one.  Maybe even make it a double decker bridge. 

I hope they start over with this project to. Its going to cost too much and have too big an impact on the center of the city for too long for them to rush this with what they'd like or think is feasible, which thus far is crap. A double decker would be a good idea, though i'd like to see the innerbelt rerouted to 490 like whats been imagineered earlier in this thread. Doing that you'd get rid of one freeway-freeway interchange and open up acres of land for downtown development. Either way ODOT's current plans are half assed on their best day.

First of all, I understand that the dynamics of a city and region are more complex than one man pushing a red button to accomplish things.  It was a joke but I know everyone here would welcome Richard with wide open arms.  Daley's speech to the city today regarding Chicago's 2016 bid was quite moving.  To think, he had the nerve to say Chicago's been through it's share of problems...(Again, joking)

 

I've never said Chicago to be the "Land flowing with milk and honey" but the river isn't the only thing in the city that's greener.  Just for some clarification, Meig's Field was turned into a park in a very short span!  Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but a span unfathomable in Cleveland.  Now, it's a green peninsula with trails and wild flowers.  The terminal still stands but I doubt for long.  With the exception of the bldg.  you would never know an airport occupied the site.  I think Daley closed it during my 2nd or 3rd year @ IIT?  2-3 years for this to happen.  Will Burke be green by 2015?  The El sucks, too.  It isn't as extensive as it should be and 9 times out of 10, you better give yourself at least 2 hrs to get to ORD on the blue line from the Loop b/c it's always stopping due to "construction"-or deconstruction!!! :whip:  Sure they're renovating some lines on the Northside but the city and IDOT are in the process of reconstructing the Dan Ryan whose cost dwarfs the Innerbelt's projected price tag.  It's too bad they won't extend service to McCormick Place, ORD (express), and/or U. of Chicago on the El but w/e... Even though LSD is 8-10 lanes wide, at least you can ride/walk/run along the shore for +/- 20 miles and access the lakefront every 1/4 mile.

 

The mentality that someone may be anti-Cleveland because of references made to what other cities are doing is why projects like the Innerbelt, Shoreway, and whatever else are one big clusterf*ck.  Personally, just because my year round zip isn't 441-- doesn't mean I can't point out faults in CLE or better yet, some case studies in other cities.  Staring at a problem, convincing yourself that it isn't "that bad"  is why money is thrown away on projects that have  different outcomes than the original intention.  I believe that Cleveland has a wealth of potential to position itself as major player in nat'l and int'l affairs in the near and distant future--in addition to providing an exceptional quality of life to its citizens.  I also believe that we won't reach that position if we keep blinders on.  Mind you, I am not and will not be sitting on some couch in Parma or Brunswick preaching about how the devil lives in Cleveland.  Come on.  The young, fresh blood is only good for everyone.  As we've seen with our leaders, you can't expect things to change if the same group of people go back and forth over issues, disregarding anyone from the "outside" who voices some concern.  And from what's happened and what's happening in certain arenas, we should really question the patriarchs.

Example #537 why we should scrap the Inner Belt plan, stop throwing good money after bad, and start the whole fricking thing over again (lots of graphics accompanying Steve's latest piece in the paper)...

________________

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/steven_litt/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1177144340204160.xml&coll=2

 

URBAN PLANNING

Ensnared in an Inner Belt jam

Sunday, April 22, 2007

 

Christian Menn of Switzerland has designed some of the most beautiful and innovative contemporary bridges on the planet.

 

But in Cleveland, he has become a whistleblower.

 

In phone calls and e-mails over the past month, the 81-year-old engineer said that the Ohio Department of Transportation brushed his ideas aside and selected a concept for a new I-90 bridge over the Cuyahoga River that's ugly, structurally unnecessary and more expen sive than it needs to be...

 

^7:30 - still nothing.

Nearly 7:30 a.m. Monday, still nothing!!

For all intents and purposes, +$1 BILLION???  This is absolutely disgusting!  Frankly, can't we just spend 1/3 of the price on something that looks like valleyview and distribute the rest on something more worthwhile?  Of course not because those at ODOT have no mind of their own, no originality, no common sense. This city/state is in NO position to justify spending over $1 billion on some copycat bridge while there are other areas equally deserving of investment.  The bridge will not make Cleveland and/or Ohio cosmopolitan AT ALL and capping the current trench-forming a 'tunnel'-will speak volumes about the city (in a positive manner).  The word "design" should not be desecrated by being applied to what seems to be the new bridge.  Function follows form--Especially if $1 billion is going into the project!  The damn thing better work!  Our ODOT leaders (and anyone else involved in the guilty party) have no concept of design.  They think that just b/c Boston or Rotterdam have made icons out of similar bridges, the same will happen here?  Hello, you've missed the boat on this one!  Another tally mark on that list...  There is also no regard for the city.  The fwy. is a tool of the city--the city is NOT a tool of fwys.  Why does the city have to be subordinate to a concrete and steel monstrosity?   

 

This whole thing really pisses me off!  Sorry. 

I agree. I think a signature bridge is stupid. You can't hardly even see the damn thing. It's not like Pittsburgh or Portland or something where the bridges are a focal point.

I've been to both Rotterdam and Boston in the past 2 years I can remember taking note of how cool the bridges look (and that Boston seemed to copy Rotterdam's Erasmus Bridge)

 

All I'm saying is if this bridge is built in Cleveland, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world (unoriginal yes, but also fairly neat)

 

1) Boston:

 

2) Rotterdam (very crappy I know...I think I was on it and trying to take pictures of the scenery and hot women):

 

A bridge that is "alright" should not cost $1 billion.  I don't want to be a status quo Ho!

 

Geez, can we at least have a mini Millau Viaduct?  You know, it could mimmick the sailboats on Lake Erie... :|

 

 

Anyone have the current daily traffic count of the I490 Bridge and peak capacity v. hourly count (or other more useful metrics)?  Just trying to get a sense how under-used it is.  There really has to be a better way than the crap ODOT is trying to cram through right now.

 

And cle20032, when are you going to post a photo thread of your historic campus?

From 2004:

 

 

Cool, thanks Musky.  I say f the whole new bridge and just take the ugly old one down.  Let the driving hordes cross over the 490 Bridge.  Instead of straightening dead-man's curve, add a second one where 77 hits the Innerbelt.  To echo everyone else, this current process is becoming such a disaster.