The Minnesota bridge is of the same vintage and design.  Both are major arterial connections into the CBD of a major metro area.  The Minneapolis bridge collapsed, the Cleveland bridge is in the process of deteriorating faster than anyone could have imagined.  Is that enough connection?

No.

The Minnesota bridge is of the same vintage and design.  Both are major arterial connections into the CBD of a major metro area.  The Minneapolis bridge collapsed, the Cleveland bridge is in the process of deteriorating faster than anyone could have imagined.  Is that enough connection?

 

It absolutely is - and it's an example of ODOT once again sh!tting on the part of the state north of I-480 and east of Lorain County.

 

Yeah MTS, I said that it'd be nice to get better public transit access, but simply put ODOT has dragged their f#cking corrupt bureaucratic feet long enough, and the reality is - the Innerbelt bridge is a vital artery and every day it goes without being fixed or replaced is another day that another small business can't hang on; it's another day that commuting m#therf#ckers use MY street as a dragway to circumvent the Innerbelt; it's another it's another day that the person who moved to Tremont because of great access decides it ain't worth it; it's another day that safety forces are delayed in their response times; it's another day of my neighborhood's streets being clogged by detouring motorists; it's another day that those streets get so damaged that driving over them becomes hazardous to one's safety and their property (bent rims, blown shocks, etc.); it's another day that one of the alternate routes into downtown gets closed down because they (lift bridges) can't handle the stress of the excess traffic.

 

Do NOT take my comment as a "oh well, throw some money RTA's way and all will be well". I try to be respectful to people who work in the public sector but the f#cktards at ODOT aren't worthy of that respect - they've had WAY too long to resolve this.

X, I stand corrected.  I'm wrong, accept my apology. 

 

MayDay I feel your pain.

As a Tremonter, we actually have pretty decent public transportation access, given the existing connections.  It would be wonderful if we had an east-to-west connection from Lorain across the neighborhood to I-490 and out east....

 

Except... with the potential closing of the Innerbelt Bridge, the traffic patterns along I-490 are such that drivers (including buses) getting on I-490 via the W 7th St. entrance ramp have to cross two clogged lanes of traffic waiting to get on I-77 north and south, and then immediately cross into one of the left two lanes that clip along at or above the speed limit.

 

Biking to downtown has also become a lot more dangerous since the very same folks that cut across the neighborhood to access downtown (and miss the Innerbelt Bridge) drive at breakneck speeds along 14th and Abbey with little regard for cyclists.

 

Keep in mind that sometime soon, the W 3rd St. bridge will need to be closed for painting since that job wasn't finished by ODOT due to their lousing-up the length of cables during the rehabilitation.

"Biking to downtown has also become a lot more dangerous since the very same folks that cut across the neighborhood to access downtown (and miss the Innerbelt Bridge) drive at breakneck speeds along 14th and Abbey with little regard for cyclists."

 

Absolutely - believe me, I'm a firm supporter of "share the road", but if you're cycling across the Abbey Bridge during rush, I *highly* recommend using the sidewalks. Those people zipping through just don't give a shite.

 

It absolutely is - and it's an example of ODOT once again sh!tting on the part of the state north of I-480 and east of Lorain County.

 

No, you can include Lorain County too - we're on day 115 of the US 6 Bascule Bridge f$&k up which has taken one of only two bridges across the Black River in Lorain out of commission for nearly four months due to incompetence on ODOT's part.

 

http://thatwoman.wordpress.com/2008/11/06/a-bridge-too-far-up-the-yin-yang-odot-stacy-and-schon/

I'd use the sidewalks, except that the walks are not wide enough for a cyclist to pass a pedestrian, much less pass a cyclist coming from the other direction.  At least it's safer to use Abbey than it is to go down W. 3rd and up Commercial Hill or take Scranton (EEEK!).

 

 

Remember years and years ago when ODOT briefly considered building not only an iconic bridge, but one that included crossings for pedestrians and cyclists?  Good times...

 

It absolutely is - and it's an example of ODOT once again sh!tting on the part of the state north of I-480 and east of Lorain County.

 

 

No, you can include Lorain County too - we're on day 115 of the US 6 Bascule Bridge f$&k up which has taken one of only two bridges across the Black River in Lorain out of commission for nearly four months due to incompetence on ODOT's part.

 

http://thatwoman.wordpress.com/2008/11/06/a-bridge-too-far-up-the-yin-yang-odot-stacy-and-schon/

 

 

 

That wasn't ODOTs fault. The part needed to fix the bridge took longer to manufacture then expected. Plus people kept stealing the metal works from the construction site.

 

Besides, they started testing the bridge today.

X, I stand corrected. I'm wrong, accept my apology.

 

No need to apologize.

X, I stand corrected.  I'm wrong, accept my apology. 

 

No need to apologize.

 

Yes there is, it's the proper thing to do.

Apology accepted.

:roll:

 

There are many times that people around here think you can snap your fingers and something should just get done, and I have to remind them how long the planning and construction process can take.  This is not one of those situations.  Quite frankly I've never seen nor heard anywhere about anything quite as ridiculous as the ODOT Cleveland Innerbelt nightmare.  Not only are they no closer today to getting started then they were ten years ago, even though they've been "planning" the whole time.  Each new "idea" they come up with is worse than the one they had the day before.

 

ODOT: Getting people through, around, and out of the city of Cleveland as quickly and efficiently as humanly possible for decades.

... people around here think you can snap your fingers and something should just get done, and I have to remind them how long the planning and construction process can take. This is not one of those situations. Quite frankly I've never seen nor heard anywhere about anything quite as ridiculous as the ODOT Cleveland Innerbelt nightmare. Not only are they no closer today to getting started then they were ten years ago, even though they've been "planning" the whole time. Each new "idea" they come up with is worse than the one they had the day before....

The Plain Dealer reported that the "engineering firm" who was managing the project for six or seven years got sacked.  Ohio had to "restart" this project a few years ago.  That's how we lost a decade.

Shutdown of Inner Belt Bridge would be disastrous for Cleveland November 14, 2008 04:27AM

 

Gov. Ted Strickland's highway department is considering shutting down the Inner Belt Bridge for two years, because deterioration is making it dangerous.

 

Keeping motorists safe is, as it should be, the Ohio Department of Transportation's first priority. No one wants a repeat of last year's catastrophe in Minneapolis...

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/pdopinion/2008/11/shutdown_of_inner_belt_bridge.html

So, in other words, the closing of a bridge will result in the apocalypse. That sucks. Start building your underground bunkers now, everybody.

ODOT, like most aspects of our governmnet, is not the most efficient organization.  However, if the bridge is not safe, then close it and rebuild it.  Today.

I just hope we don't get stuck with a concrete pier and steel girder bridge.... Who wants an I-480 type bridge near Cleveland.

Of course the PD took it's obligatory cheap shot at downtown.  This editorial is childish and elementary.  It sets up the false dichotomy that if the Inner Belt bridge is closed, which it should be if its safety really is questionable, downtown Cleveland would die.  What a joke... Cleveland is so totally ill served by this rag of a newspaper.

I think it would be an interesting exercise for the PD or the city to take a look at cities in the U.S. and Canada which have five or fewer interstate-quality highways coming into their downtown areas. I picked five because that's what Cleveland has, including the West Shoreway. I believe Chicago also has five interstates coming into their downtown. Then measure those cities' downtown populations, average property values per acre, leasing values per square foot, vacancies among retail, office and housing sectors, and so on.

I think it would be an interesting exercise for the PD or the city to take a look at cities in the U.S. and Canada which have five or fewer interstate-quality highways coming into their downtown areas. I picked five because that's what Cleveland has, including the West Shoreway. I believe Chicago also has five interstates coming into their downtown. Then measure those cities' downtown populations, average property values per acre, leasing values per square foot, vacancies among retail, office and housing sectors, and so on.

 

I can tell you that St. Louis has a similar "highway consolidation over one bridge" problem in terms of crossing over to Illinois.  Currently, I-64, I-55, and I-70 cross the Mississippi River on one bridge (the Poplar Street Bridge, completed 1967).  Additionally, I-44 ends and merges with I-55 right outside downtown, similar to how I-71 and I-90 merge.  They're in the same boat as Cleveland.  While that bridge is a few years newer than the Innerbelt Bridge, it's still old.  There are plans to divert at least I-70 to a new bridge, but that's not going to happen for several years yet.

I think freeways are the freaking death of cities. Not getting rid of them.

 

I would have no problem with this bridge just being demolished once and for all, along with the highway that cuts through. Oh, if I could dream.

is anyone talking about the southern alignment or the modified southern alignment of a new bridge that we discussed way back in this thread?

I believe ifthings progress in the direction we are hearing, we won't haveto worry about any other alignmet other then the current one.

I think freeways are the freaking death of cities. Not getting rid of them.

 

I would have no problem with this bridge just being demolished once and for all, along with the highway that cuts through. Oh, if I could dream.

Freeways still play a vital role in safely and efficiently transporting commerce and passengers across this great country (and has for over 40 years).  Closing it is not the answer.  I support KJP's plan, though it does not appear to have any officials support.

I'm actually extremely against the southern alignment.  I think it would be devestating to efforts taking place in the core downtown area.  By moving the innerbelt south it opens a large amount of land for development just south of the ball park.  I'm sure it sounds great and could spur lots of new development... But that's expansion, not growth.  Right now we need to worry about adaptive reuse of the building stock we currently have.  We can worry about downtown's "expansion" after we've filled in the many holes we currently have.

I just can't believe we're in this position talking about these options.  Most embarassing for a society expected to lead mankind forward.  We need to find a way to make sprawl pay for its own infrastructure.  Maybe it's time for some federal property taxes, graduated by one's choice of living situation.  Outer rings and exurbs get soaked, inner cities and small farms are exempt or close to it, rural areas are much higher if you aren't farming.  Social engineering yes, but sprawl is too.   

I officially support it. :D

Some expansion within the freeway to the south might raise population and foot traffic downtown to the point that we get more rehab of old buildings, not less.  Right now downtown comes to an unceremonious end a couple blocks below its main corridor.  That's always bothered me a great deal, and the innerbelt is what seems to be causing it.  On the other hand, the southern alignment might not open up enough to justify doing it.  The KJP alignment would for sure.  We've been screwed for years by the state.  Columbus owes us a KJP alignment.       

We can worry about downtown's "expansion" after we've filled in the many holes we currently have.

 

And it will be at least another 50 years before we have this opportunity again. I will be dead and gone by then, and most of the others here will be so old that I doubt they'll even be aware of what's happening beyond their diapers being changed.

 

You have to take your opportunities when you get them. What I'm proposing is to replace those God-awful, obsolete public housing projects like Cedar Estates with a mixed-income, mixed use neighborhood where the Central Interchange is now. What to do with the Cedar Estates? We should be so lucky to have that option.

ODOT, like most aspects of our governmnet, is not the most efficient organization.  However, if the bridge is not safe, then close it and rebuild it.  Today.

 

I seem to recall when earthquake-damaged highways and bridges in California were closed (back in early or mid-1990s, maybe? I can't recall exactly), that they rebuilt them in record time.  Construction crews worked 24/7 and the state offered bonuses for early completion.  As I recall, they ran the numbers and determined that it was costing the state far more in lost economic activity to have this infrastructure closed that it was costing the state extra for the 24/7 crews and for the bonuses.  Most things were re-built in a matter of months.  Why couldn't the same approach work here? 

I also recall that whenever a significant piece of infrastructure is lost, we adjust. Consider the double-deck highway that collapsed in San Francisco in the 1989 earthquake. Locals thought the city would be strangled by traffic. But people took transit more, telecommuted or simply didn't make as many trips as before.

 

Same thing happened when that tanker trunk burned below the Oakland highway and the highway collapsed onto the interstate below. Again, locals claimed the region would become mired in traffic on other routes. And again it didn't happen because people adjusted.

 

The same will happen again with the Inner Belt.

The Director of ODOT will be on the radio taking calls about "the Innerbelt Bridge" Monday at 9:00 AM .

 

Cleveland Public Radio - WCPN 90.3 FM.  Streaming audio at: www.wcpn.org  .  I believe that WCPN archives these shows for later listening.

I also recall that whenever a significant piece of infrastructure is lost, we adjust. Consider the double-deck highway that collapsed in San Francisco in the 1989 earthquake. Locals thought the city would be strangled by traffic. But people took transit more, telecommuted or simply didn't make as many trips as before.

 

Same thing happened when that tanker trunk burned below the Oakland highway and the highway collapsed onto the interstate below. Again, locals claimed the region would become mired in traffic on other routes. And again it didn't happen because people adjusted.

 

The same will happen again with the Inner Belt.

 

Of course, that area of the country had more transit options even in 1989, and when that Oakland incident happened, it had even more.  That helps. 

I'd be very surprised if that were the case, considering how much California has been investing in transit.

Don't know what else to say at this point..we have a "red light" special carrying "119,000" vehicles a day over the the Cuyahoga river valley..if this doesn't become a NATIONAL rallying point for neglect of our existing urban infrastructure then what will?

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/11/red_light_marks_the_spot_of_in.html

Of what significance is the red light?

So super-duper big boats (or very low flying planes) can see it at night

That's what I thought. The way they made the article sound, I almost thought it was to detect fractures or something.

That's what I thought. The way they made the article sound, I almost thought it was to detect fractures or something.

 

That's what I thought too, lol.

Of what significance is the red light?

Check the link right below the picture. Its marking the spot of the weakest point on the bridge.

My reference was to "blue light" specials at k-mart..being cheap on existing infrastructure..seemed funny at 3:00 AM  :drunk:

 

It would be cool if there was a warning light though or are the closed lanes and no trucks signs enough of a warning already?

My reference was to "blue light" specials at k-mart..being cheap on existing infrastructure..seemed funny at 3:00 AM :drunk:

 

It would be cool if there was a warning light though or are the closed lanes and no trucks signs enough of a warning already?

 

Don't worry, I got the reference :).

if this doesn't become a NATIONAL rallying point for neglect of our existing urban infrastructure then what will?

 

 

Six dead motorists in Minnesota.

^Problem is that the l-35 bridge failure is being blamed on inadequate design and overloading due to construction equipment. I really believe our very own inner belt bridge is a better poster child for neglect of/failure to invest in existing urban infrastructure.

I think it is less than wise to advertise which one single link in the bridge could  cause the entire stucture to collapse in a post 9/11 world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will RTA busses be allowed on the bridge?

if this doesn't become a NATIONAL rallying point for neglect of our existing urban infrastructure then what will?

 

 

Six dead motorists in Minnesota.

More than that, I think.  13?

I don't think so.

More than that, I think. 13?

 

 

You are correct, sir!

 

http://media.myfoxtwincities.com/special/35wbridgecollapse/index.htm

 

Will RTA busses be allowed on the bridge?

 

Another good question. I suspect they won't. But ask Jerry in the RTA thread.