Will RTA busses be allowed on the bridge?

 

Another good question. I suspect they won't. But ask Jerry in the RTA thread.

 

According the the Channel 3 news report last night, busses will also be banned from the bridge.

 

It made me wonder about snow plows/salt trucks.

It made me wonder about snow plows/salt trucks.

 

I don't think that's possible, lol.

Inner Belt bridge project highlighted in bold....

 

http://www.cleveland.com/westsidesun/news/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1231445328181590.xml&coll=4

 

Cleveland submits wish list of projects for federal funds

Thursday, January 08, 2009

By Ken Prendergast

[email protected]

West Side Sun News

 

Among $1.56 billion worth of infrastructure projects submitted by the city for federal economic stimulus funds, Mayor Frank Jackson singled out four projects as his highest priorities.

......

 

Jackson submitted his 66-project list Dec. 22 to President-elect Barack Obama, Gov. Ted Strickland and Ohio's Congressional Delegation. In it, he highlighted these four projects:

 

+ $350 million for construction of a new westbound Innerbelt-Central Viaduct (Interstate 90) bridge over the Cuyahoga River valley.

 

+ $50 million for repair of the slumping Riverbed Road hillside in Ohio City which threatens to close the Cuyahoga River to shipping traffic.

 

+ $300 million for the Opportunity Corridor boulevard from Interstate 490 to University Circle.

 

+ $30 million for rebuilding the West Shoreway (state Route 2) between West 25th Street and Clifton Boulevard.

 

"The first two projects are very real public safety threats," Jackson wrote in his letter to Obama. "We seek action now to avoid tragedies such as the bridge collapse in Minneapolis."

 

......

So, we are still going to have a two-bridge solution?

Sounds like it......

We should of got funding for this bridge already, while Columbus is asking for light rail. ODOT sucks. I don't know much about the passenger rail connecting the 3 C's  but is Columbus and Cincy asking for money to get it started as well?

We should of got funding

 

Yes, we should HAVE.

 

I don't know much about the passenger rail connecting the 3 C's  but is Columbus and Cincy asking for money to get it started as well?

 

I don't believe so.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/inner_belt_bridge_construction.html#more

 

Inner Belt Bridge construction plan, schedule take shape

Posted by Karen Farkas

 

This is retread but it's also reiteration.  To his credit, Frank Jackson is being most adamant about this.  Hopefully he gets what he wants.  This project fits 100% into Obama's stated plans. 

 

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=105596&catid=45

 

Mayor Jackson: Shutting down Innerbelt Bridge not acceptable

 

CLEVELAND -- Shutting down the Innerbelt Bridge does not work for Cleveland's mayor.

 

Mayor Frank Jackson told state officials Wednesday a one-year shutdown of the bridge is not acceptable... 

 

^I couldn't disagree more.  Close the bridge and get the single span built.  It's going to be 1 year of taking a couple mile detour.  Sure traffic will be worse but it's only a year.  They'll add lanes where they can at all the interchanges and major on/off ramps downtown.  I don't think it would be a huge deal... but that's coming from a guy that currently lives and works downtown. 

The current lane closures are a big deal for west siders, especially since the same thing has taken place on Detroit and the Shoreway simultaneously.  Anyone who wants the innerbelt closed, please come visit the Edgewater neighborhood around 8:30 some morning.

 

There's a reason Jackson keeps insisting on this.  If all 3 primary routes into downtown are torn up at the same time, he will be in Trouble.

Then I propose suspending work on the Shoreway (except for the water main thing) until the bridge is completed.  Open up as many lanes as humanly possible on the Shoreway and let them fly into downtown for the year the bridge is out.  I understand it's an inconvenience... but a $300 million inconvenience?  I don't buy that.

The water main thing IS what's tying up the shoreway.  Right now we're down one lane (inbound) on it, one on Detroit, and one on the innerbelt.  That has been enough to make Clifton a parking lot.  The innerbelt handles more traffic than either of the others, so closing all of those lanes could back up Lorain, Detroit, and 25th in addition to Clifton.  Diverting 90/71 traffic over 490 to 77 will force the entire west and south commutes to merge in a way they never have before.  Even if the shoreway were at full capacity, I would not recommend closing the innerbelt.

But the sewer interceptor (not a water main) on the Shoreway should be done this summer, long before any major work starts on the Innerbelt bridge.

I say tear the dam thing down.  No new inner belt bridge [make those drivers use 490] or opportunity cooridor.  More public transportation!

 

Down with bridges.

But the sewer interceptor (not a water main) on the Shoreway should be done this summer, long before any major work starts on the Innerbelt bridge.

 

Good.

Great idea! (another reason to be thankful I don't live on the west side, eh!?)

 

I say tear the dam thing down. No new inner belt bridge [make those drivers use 490] or opportunity cooridor. More public transportation!

 

Down with bridges.

Four lanes of Inner Belt Bridge to close for repairs

 

Posted by kturner February 05, 2009 13:26PM

 

CLEVELAND — Inner Belt Bridge lanes will be closed tonight and Friday night so crews can widen an expansion joint on the west end of the bridge.

 

The left two inbound, or east, lanes will close from 9 p.m. tonight until 6 a.m. Friday. One lane will remain open.

 

The left two outbound, or west, lanes will close from 9 p.m. Friday until 6 a.m. Saturday. One lane will remain open...

I have no desire to ever be on that bridge again.  I'm glad they're doing things to keep it safe, but they keep having to do more things.

just tear the whole thing down.  We have I-490 and several major roadways!

just tear the whole thing down.  We have I-490 and several major roadways!

 

490 doesn't go anywhere and the alternative roadways are all under construction at the same time.  I'm with Frank Jackson on this, we can't lose that bridge right now.  I just won't be on it.

just tear the whole thing down.  We have I-490 and several major roadways!

 

490 doesn't go anywhere and the alternative roadways are all under construction at the same time.  I'm with Frank Jackson on this, we can't lose that bridge right now.  I just won't be on it.

 

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

490 connects you to 71 & 77 just like the innerbelt bridge does!

 

Lorain, Detroit and the shoreway are all operating and even under construction there are plenty of major roadways.

The standard Cleveland traffic metrics you're using do not apply.  I realize you're in NYC and you haven't been to the west side of Cleveland lately.  Traffic has been unlike anything I've ever experienced here, on every route.  Clifton through Edgewater is gridlocked every morning.  Sometimes it backs up into Lakewood, and occasionally Detroit Ave is gridlocked INTO LAKEWOOD as well.  It's almost always gridlocked for morning rush between 85th and the Gordon Square construction.  Lorain Ave is not affected (that I know of), but it isn't really an alternative to anyone living north of I-90.

Cough Cough --- West Shore Corridor commuter rail --- cough cough.......

Cough Cough --- West Shore Corridor commuter rail --- cough cough.......

 

Is that even on any of the infrastructure wish lists?  I figured it would be all over the news by now, but I haven't heard a peep (present company excluded).

Yes, but only for planning money to make it "shovel ready." It could be fast-tracked with state money or be called a demonstration project but that hasn't happened yet. Apparently our decision makers are fine with traffic the way it is...

The standard Cleveland traffic metrics you're using do not apply.  I realize you're in NYC and you haven't been to the west side of Cleveland lately.  Traffic has been unlike anything I've ever experienced here, on every route.  Clifton through Edgewater is gridlocked every morning.  Sometimes it backs up into Lakewood, and occasionally Detroit Ave is gridlocked INTO LAKEWOOD as well.  It's almost always gridlocked for morning rush between 85th and the Gordon Square construction.  Lorain Ave is not affected (that I know of), but it isn't really an alternative to anyone living north of I-90.

 

I live in Cleveland (see avatar) I go to the westside, via Rapid all the time.  When I drive, I take 490. 

 

So what there is a little gridlock, we've been spoiled here in Cleveland too long with light traffic.  Now its called a problem.  I disagree.

 

That bridge can come down and leaving plenty of routes in to/out of downtown. 

 

Again, those on i-90 or I-77 can connect with downtown

The standard Cleveland traffic metrics you're using do not apply.  I realize you're in NYC and you haven't been to the west side of Cleveland lately.  Traffic has been unlike anything I've ever experienced here, on every route.  Clifton through Edgewater is gridlocked every morning.  Sometimes it backs up into Lakewood, and occasionally Detroit Ave is gridlocked INTO LAKEWOOD as well.  It's almost always gridlocked for morning rush between 85th and the Gordon Square construction.  Lorain Ave is not affected (that I know of), but it isn't really an alternative to anyone living north of I-90.

 

I live in Cleveland (see avatar) I go to the westside, via Rapid all the time.  When I drive, I take 490. 

 

So what there is a little gridlock, we've been spoiled here in Cleveland too long with light traffic.  Now its called a problem.  I disagree.

 

That bridge can come down and leaving plenty of routes in to/out of downtown. 

 

Again, those on i-90 or I-77 can connect with downtown

 

You use 490 because you're going to/from Shaker, as opposed to downtown where all these other roads go.  That final stretch of 77 is not nearly big enough to handle everyone from 90 EB, 71, and 77 in the morning.  No way, no how.  Cleveland traffic is famously low-key, and we're in no position to lose advantages right now.  NYC has bad traffic because it's in high demand.  Part of Cleveland has bad traffic right now because of inexcusable planning failures.  If it gets any worse, it will sap value from west side properties for years to come.

I leave downtown via 77>490>90>West Boulevard, and 77>490>71>West 25th (or the other way around) almost everyday. These routes work just fine and, with some improvements, would operate sufficiently enough as a detour for a couple of years while the bridge is replaced.

 

On occasion I take the West Boulevard>Clifton>West Shoreway route. I have seen the backups and now leave earlier. Not very difficult if you ask me... but you didn't.

I leave downtown via 77>490>90>West Boulevard, and 77>490>71>West 25th (or the other way around) almost everyday. These routes work just fine and, with some improvements, would operate sufficiently enough as a detour for a couple of years while the bridge is replaced.

 

On occasion I take the West Boulevard>Clifton>West Shoreway route. I have seen the backups and now leave earlier. Not very difficult if you ask me... but you didn't.

 

Thank you.  I don't understand what the big who-ha is.

That doesn't address the issue, unfortunately.  There's never a problem leaving downtown.  Outbound roads in every direction from there branch into additional roads, which is ideal.  This structure has the opposite effect in the morning, which is the only time these backups take place.  Clifton starts as just Clifton.  Then it picks up people from 117th, who presumably came down from 90.  Then it picks up people from West Blvd, most of whom come from 90.  Then it picks up all of Lake Avenue.  The reverse version of the path you described (involving 490/77) is my next backup plan, but it's ridiculously out of route for what was once a 15 minute trip.

There's never a problem leaving downtown.  Outbound roads in every direction from there branch into additional roads.  This structure has the opposite effect in the morning, which is the only time these backups take place.  Clifton starts as just Clifton.  Then it picks up people from 117th, who presumably came down from 90.  Then it picks up people from West Blvd, most of which come from 90.  Then it picks up all of Lake Avenue.  The reverse version of the path you just described is my next backup plan, but it's ridiculously out of route for what was once a 15 minute trip.

 

So let me get this right.  It's not that my route and suggestion don't work it's convenience that you're arguing?

Maybe people should move closer/take public transportation/car pool to where they work instead of bitching about sitting in traffic.

There's never a problem leaving downtown.  Outbound roads in every direction from there branch into additional roads.  This structure has the opposite effect in the morning, which is the only time these backups take place.  Clifton starts as just Clifton.  Then it picks up people from 117th, who presumably came down from 90.  Then it picks up people from West Blvd, most of which come from 90.  Then it picks up all of Lake Avenue.  The reverse version of the path you just described is my next backup plan, but it's ridiculously out of route for what was once a 15 minute trip.

 

So let me get this right.  It's not that my route and suggestion don't work it's convenience that you're arguing?

 

I'm downtown for 15 hours a day sometimes.  I often get home around 9 or 10pm, sometimes later.  If you think changing a 15 minute morning commute to 1.5 hours is merely a convenience issue... you probably enjoy flogging yourself.

I would second 327's view that 490 is not a good alternative for the innerbelt bridge.  490 only has one lane ramp onto I 77north....with just the trucks being detoured, it backs up onto I71/Jennings...you add all 250,000 cars that travel the innerbelt and there is no way that it would work. 

^True.  I was looking at the possible 490-77 detour on google maps and noticed this problem.  If all the major interstate interchanges could be made 2 lanes for the detour then it would work perfectly for the year or two it would take to build a new bridge.  Without these upgrades I don't think the delays would be acceptable.  I am, however, STRONGLY in favor of the tear down and rebuild solution.  Just spend a little extra money to appropriately engineer the detour routes.

Maybe people should move closer/take public transportation/car pool to where they work instead of bitching about sitting in traffic.

 

Buses suffer the same delay cars do, and only a small portion of Lakewood is serviced by the rapid.  Not my portion.  Remember:  Lakewood was designed to have 3 trolley lines all the way across it and those are gone.  Carpooling would help this, but it would have to be a lot of people carpooling.  With my crazy schedule carpooling isn't all that practical, and our hypothetical carpool car would still have to use the same gridlocked routes.  I am actively seeking an apartment closer to downtown.  As I mentioned before, this is life-changing traffic, and it has devalued Lakewood for me considerably.

 

The answer to this would have been to maintain sufficient capacity for the load, just like you would for an electrical circuit or a blood vessel.  At this point all we can do is try not to exacerbate it until one of these projects is finished.

I would second 327's view that 490 is not a good alternative for the innerbelt bridge. 490 only has one lane ramp onto I 77north....with just the trucks being detoured, it backs up onto I71/Jennings...you add all 250,000 cars that travel the innerbelt and there is no way that it would work.

 

 

That is why I said "with some improvements."

 

God, please tell me why ODT is spending money to add a third lane on && south of Independence. Why not add another lane to the ramps at the 77/490 interchange?

There's never a problem leaving downtown.  Outbound roads in every direction from there branch into additional roads.  This structure has the opposite effect in the morning, which is the only time these backups take place.  Clifton starts as just Clifton.  Then it picks up people from 117th, who presumably came down from 90.  Then it picks up people from West Blvd, most of which come from 90.  Then it picks up all of Lake Avenue.  The reverse version of the path you just described is my next backup plan, but it's ridiculously out of route for what was once a 15 minute trip.

 

So let me get this right.  It's not that my route and suggestion don't work it's convenience that you're arguing?

 

I'm downtown for 15 hours a day sometimes.  I often get home around 9 or 10pm, sometimes later.  If you think changing a 15 minute morning commute to 1.5 hours is merely a convenience issue... you probably enjoy flogging yourself.

 

1.5 hr commute?  This is a real question Are you serious? It's not like I suggest going to 480.

There's never a problem leaving downtown. Outbound roads in every direction from there branch into additional roads. This structure has the opposite effect in the morning, which is the only time these backups take place. Clifton starts as just Clifton. Then it picks up people from 117th, who presumably came down from 90. Then it picks up people from West Blvd, most of which come from 90. Then it picks up all of Lake Avenue. The reverse version of the path you just described is my next backup plan, but it's ridiculously out of route for what was once a 15 minute trip.

 

So let me get this right. It's not that my route and suggestion don't work it's convenience that you're arguing?

 

I'm downtown for 15 hours a day sometimes. I often get home around 9 or 10pm, sometimes later. If you think changing a 15 minute morning commute to 1.5 hours is merely a convenience issue... you probably enjoy flogging yourself.

 

1.5 hr commute? This is a real question Are you serious? It's not like I suggest going to 480.

 

I also find this absolutely impossible to believe.  I have a friend who lives on Clifton and takes the west shoreway to and from downtown every single day.  I can not believe he would not mention it to me if it was taking him an hour and a half to do so.  Particuarly since we talk about the shoreway project from time to time. 

It's 1.5 on the worst days, with weather contributing.  On the occasional best day, like MLK day, it's as normal.  The average now is about 45 to an hour, so that's 3x or 4x normal.  What route did you suggest?  The one Musky suggested that you referenced was an outbound route, which isn't needed.  Taking 490 to 77 in the morning would add enough miles that, combined with the existing backups on 77 and my exact destination downtown, would be very unlikely to be any faster in the morning.  I appreciate your concern but creative navigation won't solve this. 

 

I can't speak for what the shoreway looks like outside the 8-9 peak hour, because that's when I use it.  If your friend isn't experiencing gridlock from 117 on in at this hour, I would like to get on his or her vibration, whatever it is.  What I've described is witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people every morning.  I've seen it take a very long time for people on the south side of Clifton to exit their driveways.  You guys act like I'm making this up and I don't know what else to tell you.

OK, I just heard back from my buddy... weather aside... which impacts everything, regardless.

 

He said what used to take him 10 minutes, now takes him about 20-25 with the lane closure, but that it's not that big a deal to him.  I think you are hypersensitive to traffic. :lol:

1.5 hours----------??  I use the shoreway a lot and that is not my experience at all. Now on the really bad weather days, it is backed up--but so are all the other highways in town.

OK, I just heard back from my buddy... weather aside... which impacts everything, regardless.

 

He said what used to take him 10 minutes, now takes him about 20-25 with the lane closure, but that it's not that big a deal to him.  I think you are hypersensitive to traffic. :lol:

 

It hasn't taken me 25 minutes for several weeks now.  25 minutes would be spectacular.  I'm usually going from central Lakewood to the far end of downtown, off the innerbelt.  Differences in origin and destination will impact our times.  Bottom line is, I'm not hallucinating.

I have never seen or heard of anyone talking about averaging around 5mph for 90 minutes.  Are you sure you aren't walking to work?

I just came back from Honolulu and have visited places like DC, Chicago, NYC on more than one occasion and all I have to say to anyone who complains about traffic (even on a bad day with a lane closure/weather conditions in Cleveland) is:

 

I have never seen or heard of anyone talking about averaging around 5mph for 90 minutes.  Are you sure you aren't walking to work?

 

Again, 1.5 hours is the high end of the range, only when there's new snow like yesterday.  I had a meeting at CSU with a guy who needed 2 hours to get in from Tremont that day, so yesterday isn't really representative.

 

On a "normal day" now:  My car never goes past 3rd gear from 117th till I've passed the sewer work, and 3rd gear is very very rare.  About 45% of the trip is in 1st and 45% in 2nd gear through the affected area.  The average speed is about like 10 or 15, but that's when I'm moving and there's a lot of time spent not moving at all.  I'm not doing some big spreadsheet right now just to figure it out.   

First Texas rancher: My ranch is so big, that if I leave the farmhouse in the morning and drive my truck all day, I won't reach the far end until dinner time.

Second Texas rancher: I had a truck like that once.

I just came back from Honolulu and have visited places like DC, Chicago, NYC on more than one occasion and all I have to say to anyone who complains about traffic (even on a bad day with a lane closure/weather conditions in Cleveland) is:

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more.  There is even a huge difference from Cincinnati to Cleveland.  I lived in Cincinnati for a little over a year and the highway traffic there is HORRIBLE every single day regardless of the weather.  And god forbid it snows because you ain't gettin' to work if it snows over 2 inches in Cincinnati.  Cleveland is an oasis in this nation of traffic jams.

 

Just remember all delays are temporary and they will pass.  Everyone knows we need to fix the bridge right by tearing it down and building anew.  Let's just take a deep breathe and hop on the train (or bus)!

^^^^People have picked houses, business locations, and have made a host of other decisions that were all impacted by having a functional bridge.  To suggest these people need to just deal without a bridge, is ridiculous and unrealistic. 

 

Along those same lines, why not just continue to allow all bridges to decay and force people to move back into the city?  It does not work that way.  Decisions have been made based on existing infrastructure.  If you do not want to build future highways because of sprawl, I agree.  But you don't just take away a bridge that serves over one hundred thousand people on a daily basis.