well wasn't the bridge and the associated interestates the reason many people were uprooted to begin with?  Neighborhoods destroyed?  Businesses relocated?

 

It's the circle of life. 

 

Let them move back into the city

Just consider the bus from W 25th & Detroit to the West end of Lakewood takes 31 minutes...that's all of 6 miles.  You're not even coming from downtown.  Driving dow Detroit can in your car is no different that the bus.  The shoreway/Clifton takes 15-20 minutes depending how many lights you hit.  It's easier for me to meet friends in Independence or even Brecksville - 15 miles away - than it is for me to get to the west end of Lakewood.

 

It's also just as fast - if not faster - for me to walk from the west bank to CSU (~2 miles) than it is to drive or take public transit.  I did this all the time when I had night classes at CSU and tried several different options to see which was the fastest.  The best was walking to W6th and catching the Trolley (if you timed it right), but that would only work on the way there (stops running at 7).

 

I'm not complaining about Cleveland traffic at all - and for the record I loved waking to class each night - I'm just saying 327 has a point.  Getting across downtown can be time consuming - be it public transit, walking, or driving.  Eliminating a route through downtown is going to cause some headaches.  77N is a log jam as it is coming into downtown...diverting all I-90 traffic onto 490/77 would only add to it.

^^^^People have picked houses, business locations, and have made a host of other decisions that were all impacted by having a functional bridge.  To suggest these people need to just deal without a bridge, is ridiculous and unrealistic. 

 

I think that's Jackson's point, whether he's stated it that clearly or not.  But I don't know if it's wise to keep using this bridge long enough to build another one.  There's a new problem almost weekly now.  We might just be stuck with a ridiculous and unrealistic scenario.

Its only Two years. Not something that is going to effect a neighborhood forever.

Good point.  Euclid Corridor was three years, and there's more action on it now than there was before.  This will hurt a lot more than one street though.  They need to get things back to capacity on the other bridge routes, or the west side is screwed and so is downtown.  As soon as they finish-- blow that thing up.  The new one could be really nice if they want it to be.  Let's buy some steel. 

the horror that has become the lakewood-downtown commute is real. bottomline, if it snows leave an hour and a half-two hours early. to get downtown. it seriously is that bad. when it snows. im puzzled why they had to close two lanes on the shoreway this time of year, i dont even know what theyre doing. most of the time lately i dont even see any work going on.

most of the time lately i dont even see any work going on.

 

They're working on Gordon Square though, bright and early every morning.  Detroit should be decent once it's all two lanes.  Franklin is surprisingly fast from 85th.

Franklin is surprisingly fast from 85th.

 

Shhhhhush!

nobody has figured that route out yet, i'd like to keep it that way.

Commute was silky smooth today!  See, you complain on this site and somebody makes things happen.

Yep. It took me 10 minutes to get downtown this morning on Clifton/Shoreway from the Gold Coast. Granted it was at 9 a.m. rather than 7:30 or 8.

90 hasn't been that bad in the mornings.  Yesterday I got on at the McKinley entrance at about 7:55 and my 515 Euclid garage ticket was timestamped at 8:23.  And wasn't even one of those aholes who cut the line by staying in the right lane all the way to where the lanes merge entering the interbelt.

I didn't cut off text in the second pph, it really is edited that poorly.  I assume they mean all ramps will once again be open.

 

ODOT says all Inner Belt bridge lanes to reopen by early next year, two-span replacement in works

Posted by Karen Farkas/Plain Dealer Reporter February 11, 2009 11:12AM

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/02/odot_chooses_twospan_option_to.html

 

CLEVELAND — The Inner Belt bridge will be fully opened by the end of this year or early next year, a spokesman for the Ohio Department of Transportation told Cleveland City Council this morning.

 

Bonnie Teeuwen, the director of the ODOT district that plan includes Cuyahoga County, said all ramps, including the West 14th Street ramp...

 

 

We better not be getting a Valley View Bridge type of span.  But I'm guessing we will.

They'll find some way to incorporate drywall and vinyl siding.  If one of the workers accidentally creates ornamentation they'll hire someone else to come in and grind it off.

If this bridge was in Columbus they would reroute a river to have a waterfall shooting from the side of it.

 

Does anyone remember the mid-90s plan in Columbus to have a giant cobalt glass snake suspended over the Broad St bridge?  That would have been awesome.

I hope it's cable-stayed like they were originally talking about.....  Those are pretty :-D

They'll find some way to incorporate drywall and vinyl siding. If one of the workers accidentally creates ornamentation they'll hire someone else to come in and grind it off.

 

That made me laugh out loud. :)

ODOT plans a two-bridge solution for Inner Belt

 

Posted by cpinckar February 12, 2009 03:30AM

 

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation plans to reopen all lanes on the existing I-90 bridge, top, by the end of this year, following $10 million in repairs.

 

Two five-lane Inner Belt bridges will span the Cuyahoga River by 2015, with construction set to begin next year.

 

And both bridges could be brand new...

 

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-5079

 

I'm so against this plan. I hate the fact they'll be building two new bridges. I'd much prefer them to keep it to one.

Tear it all down!  Just tear it all down.  Redevelop the areas that were destroyed when the innerbelt was planned and built.

I don't agree with this plan either.  We'll get two fugly bridges instead of just one.  Just tear the thing down and do it right!

MTS, we just are not there yet.  The innerbelt, whether you like it our not, is needed for now and probably for the next 25 years.

 

Even if you built the nations most impressive public transportation netword in that time, people will still use the automobile, and the interstate highway system.

There are things we could do to reconnect the neighborhoods, such as building the highway as a trench and bridges with retail caps. 

 

Now outer rings, or outer outer rings, or new exits in Avon or Sheffield, there I'll agree with you.

Sure, tear it down because it probably would not affect you.  However, as the article notes, there are hundreds of thousands of people who depend on it on a daily basis.  It is unrealistic to make such a demand. 

 

I'm glad this thing is moving again.  I was starting to really question our country.  I mean, are we really so poor/foolish that we cannot rebuild a bridge, even after the Minneapolis disaster?  I mean what are we, a 3rd World country?

Sure, tear it down because it probably would not affect you.  However, as the article notes, there are hundreds of thousands of people who depend on it on a daily basis.  It is unrealistic to make such a demand. 

 

I'm glad this thing is moving again.  I was starting to really question our country.  I mean, are we really so poor/foolish that we cannot rebuild a bridge, even after the Minneapolis disaster?  I mean what are we, a 3rd World country?

 

Hey, it not unrealistic, it's my opinion.  That bridge should have never been built.  It destroyed so many of our neighborhoods and they have not recovered.

 

I don't want my tax dollars used to build a brige.  That's how I feel.

 

Now, what will happen and what my preferences are, are two different things.

^Yes, virtually everything that is written here is an opinion.  We are allowed to possess and debate them.

 

Back to the rebuilding of the bridge... 

However, the design of the new bridge may be changed because of concern about using cables, she said.

 

"Since a cable-stay bridge was completed in Toledo, ice forms on the cables, melts and falls off onto cars," she said. "They have had to close lanes."

I don't really understand this argument.  Certainly cable-stayed bridges have been built in cold weather environments with few reported problems.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakim_Bunker_Hill_Bridge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresund_bridge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhivopisny_Bridge

Why would a cable-stayed bridge have more issues with ice falling than say, the Detroit-Superior bridge?  They're cheaping out and using that as an excuse  :shoot:

I think at times people here forget that the inner belt is part of I-90...a major INTERSTATE that is used by pepole outside of commuting to downtown Cleveland.  You can't just get rid of it without rebuilding I-90 elsewhere, which would even be a bigger waste of public money.

 

Sure, tear it down because it probably would not affect you. However, as the article notes, there are hundreds of thousands of people who depend on it on a daily basis. It is unrealistic to make such a demand.

 

I'm glad this thing is moving again. I was starting to really question our country. I mean, are we really so poor/foolish that we cannot rebuild a bridge, even after the Minneapolis disaster? I mean what are we, a 3rd World country?

 

Hey, it not unrealistic, it's my opinion. That bridge should have never been built. It destroyed so many of our neighborhoods and they have not recovered.

 

I don't want my tax dollars used to build a brige. That's how I feel.

 

Now, what will happen and what my preferences are, are two different things.

I think at times people here forget that the inner belt is part of I-90...a major INTERSTATE that is used by pepole outside of commuting to downtown Cleveland.  You can't just get rid of it without rebuilding I-90 elsewhere, which would even be a bigger waste of public money.

 

Sure, tear it down because it probably would not affect you.  However, as the article notes, there are hundreds of thousands of people who depend on it on a daily basis.  It is unrealistic to make such a demand. 

 

I'm glad this thing is moving again.  I was starting to really question our country.  I mean, are we really so poor/foolish that we cannot rebuild a bridge, even after the Minneapolis disaster?  I mean what are we, a 3rd World country?

 

Hey, it not unrealistic, it's my opinion.  That bridge should have never been built.  It destroyed so many of our neighborhoods and they have not recovered.

 

I don't want my tax dollars used to build a brige.  That's how I feel.

 

Now, what will happen and what my preferences are, are two different things.

 

Does I-90 connect with I-490?  ;)

^I don't think that would be an adequate option.  It would force people way too far south to get downtown (bw W 25 & E 55).  I think this would only deter more people from going downtown.

 

I forgot they could link up with 77.  I still don't think it's a good alternative however.

I just feel like we have way to many options/arteries into the city.  Maybe taking those cars off the interstate and putting them on the avenues where new businesses are opening would then let the see that the city is not dying and might persuade them to check out a new business or area they normally drive by using the highway system.

 

I just feel the bridge is necessary in this day and age.

That to me sounds like down is up and red is blue.  Put downtown on an island and within two years, all the offices move to Westlake.  Getting people from place to place is good, not bad. 

I just think it's so unfortunate that we have to keep catering to cars, and that we have to continuously provide them with the most convenient way to get through anywhere. I think it's a travesty, personally, because that's exactly what is destroying our nation's urban fabric. The only way to improve things, in my opinion, is to stop so obviously favoring them. I'm not saying get rid of every highway or bridge or whatever. We're never going to get rid of cars because, quite frankly, they're much more convenient. But I think it's about fucking time that they stopped getting such obvious preference. I'm sick of urban sprawl. I'm sick of suburbanites being favored. I'm sick of ODOT favoring them. If they have to build a new bridge, build a new bridge, but not TWO with FIVE EFFING LANES EACH. :(

I've always thought the best option was simply to beef up (add lanes to) all the major interchanges that would see increased traffic from the innerbelt bridge closure.  They're telling me that they have the money to build TWO new bridges... so why use only a fraction of that money to add lanes for the 490-77 detour and then tear down the bridge and rebuild it.  You gain added capacity on the 490-77 interchange and 490-71-90 interchange AND get a beautiful new bridge. 

^I agree in most respects.  But this is not a NEW bridge.  It is a replacement. 

It's a new bridge and a replacement.

Agreed generally, but some highways and bridges really are important.  We're fooling ourselves if we think the red line can make up for the 90 bridge-- the red line is already at or near capacity on the west side, and so is the bus system.  The problem is not cars or suburbs, the problem is the fact that Cleveland has a canyon in the middle.  You won't find many other large cities like that.  It creates special transportation challenges.

 

I've heard nothing so far about walking lanes on either of these bridges, which I thought we were supposed to get.

Does I-90 connect with I-490?  ;)

 

*takes a deep breath*

 

If you had driven on I-490 while the Innerbelt bridge was closed, you would know what a nightmare it was for not only westbound motorists to go from the westside across I-490 onto one entrance ramp to I-77 north and then back to I-90 east, but you would also see that the detour effectively kept Tremonters from using the W 7th street entrance to the highway to go towards the eastside (one had to wait upwards of 30 minutes just.to.get.on.I-490 because you had to cross two lanes of stopped traffic to get to E 55th.  Going up Commercial Hill to get to Carnegie and Ontario was likewise a burden since the Lorain Carnegie Bridge was also utterly congested.

 

Then agan, your opinion on this topic is well known to us all.

^Yes, it is "new."  But I mean it is not "new" in the sense that ODOT is not creating a "new" expressway.  They are not putting in a 690 that cuts across the lake from Rocky River to Euclid.

Pali... you are correct but I think people's gripe is that the current setup has done enough neighborhood damage and sucks up enough city land.  Adding a second 5 lane bridge is a further encroachment.  I'm not one of those that thinks the bridge isn't important.  But I hate the idea of one taking up twice as much space.  I like the idea of using funds to bolster the 490 access, and then rebuilding a new bridge in the current location.  Of course it doesn't matter what we like.  Decision has been made.

I think the cable-stayed bridge across the Maumee River in Toledo is attractive because it plays against the very-flat lake plain and entertains motorists as it pops up in the air to give us a view of the countryside or the city.  The cable-stayed bridge at Alton, Illinois across the Mississippi River is similarly attractive.

 

I don't want a cable-stayed bridge in Cleveland.  I think it would look out of place where all of the other bridges are trusses and arches.  The cable-stayed bridge in Boston on the freeway over the Back Bay looks way out of place against the nineteenth century skylines of Boston and Charleston.

 

ODOT stuffed us on bicycle lanes, but I think we should reopen the issue.  They claim that the detour to the Lorain-Carneigie Bridge where there are lanes is a fine accomodation, but that detour means crossing the valley of  Train Avenue and backtracking.

 

I am glad that Mayor Jackson is not getting downtown and Tremont cut off with an 11 month removal of the Innerbelt Bridge.

 

edit: This thread strayed from the original vision of rerouting I-90 from Deadman's Curve and "The Trench" and cutting a new alignment to the I-490 crossing.  Wah

^Yes, it is "new."  But I mean it is not "new" in the sense that ODOT is not creating a "new" expressway.  They are not putting in a 690 that cuts across the lake from Rocky River to Euclid.

 

If that could be done with some sort of Super Mario moving platforms, I'd be interested.

 

And anyone who thinks Tremont to downtown via Lorain Ave is workable needs to come try it one time.  That's ridiculous.  From Tremont you should be able to walk or bike to downtown and to Broadway.

Agreed generally, but some highways and bridges really are important. We're fooling ourselves if we think the red line can make up for the 90 bridge-- the red line is already at or near capacity on the west side, and so is the bus system.

 

Hardly. The Red Line carried 60,000 people a day in 1960 (easy numbers to remember). Today it carries between 20,000 and 25,000 a day. Some folks got excited in the RTA thread to hear that RTA was expanding some trains to three cars during rush hours. Well, back in the day, that was pretty common....

 

That's great-- assuming we expand the train capacity to where it was.  From what I'm hearing out of red line commuters, additional cars/trains are less about excitement and more about relief.

Man do I dread seeing how this new bridge is going to meet I-71/90 in Tremont.  I'm assuming it's goodbye cold storage building?

i believe i heard it is scheduled for demo... or very close to it.  I'm a huge preservationist.  but bridge or no bridge, I struggle to see a successful adaptive reuse for that building.  I know someone claimed to have a plan for it.  But it's essentially a concrete cube with no windows and cut off from everything by the existing freeway.

^Maybe true re. reuse- but to me the thing has become a lovable landmark- visible from lots of places.  Legit, unselfconscious place-making.  And those blank walls could be a great canvas for something interesting...  In any case, I prefer that thing to an even wider and more daunting barrier between Tremont and Ohio City- this new 10 lane configuration has to make the Abbey Ave. experience even crappier, no?

I'm much more concerned about some of the other buildings I think would be destroyed... such as the Broadway Mills Building on the other side of the river...  Here's a pretty decent article on architecture we would stand to lose with this plan.

 

http://www.gcbl.org/planning/innerbelt/clevelands-architecture-in-path-of-innerbelt