How is Toronto twice as dense as New York?  Or are those MSA densities?

I don't know why KJP gets so defensive when his ideas are challenged....  whatever.  I'm not going to go into my background or credentials but safe to say I mastered planning concepts awhile ago.  I also know enough about basic planning concepts to realize they are rarely implemented.  Everyone talks about mixed use, more density, access to tranit, etc but why do they all buy large free standing single family houses in places like Medina on culdesac streets?  Why isn't Public Square a hotspot for new high rise condos and why is Tower City mall dead? 

 

Comparisons to Europe are a moot point as well.  Totally different government, transportation funding, land use system, and even personal values.  A better comparison would be other midwest cities.  Like Columbus.  Which had an already huge outerbelt for it's size and doubled the lanes during the 90's and the city has continued to gain population quickly over the last decade.  Or how about Chicago, which already has a great light rail system, yet still LOST population in the last census and continues to sprawl...?  I'm interested to hear your application of urban planning fundamentals to these two situations

 

 

The answers to your questions are complex and not simply "people love suburbia", as you seem to imply.  The fact that you're a planner does not mean you understand the answers to these questions, but rather hints at why our land use continues down the path it is on, even in the face of increasing demand for density.

I don't know why KJP gets so defensive when his ideas are challenged.... 

 

When someone attacks me as you have done, then I am going to defend myself. You are surprised by this?!?! But I suppose I should be getting used to being attacked for wanting something more than what we've been getting from ODOT for the past 60 years. I was more upset because you offered an opinion based on facts that are so far outside what I am accustomed to experiencing in this world. And, plus, they're not my ideas. They're everything I've studied, read and done in my 27-year career in the transportation field.

 

As for the how we do things in the Midwest, that's a moving target. When the private sector decided transportation investments in this country, we had the world's best rail and transit systems, and very compact, walkable cities -- even in the Midwest. And to bring this back to the topic at hand:  how would the private sector have designed, built and proposed to rebuild the Inner Belt? Would it be the same today as ODOT has planned it? Would there even be an Innerbelt if it were up to the private sector 60 years ago?

ODOT, Norfolk Southern haggling over land needed for the new Inner Belt Bridge

 

Published: Thursday, June 02, 2011, 8:00 PM    Updated: Friday, June 03, 2011, 7:05 AM

By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, OHIO -- ODOT and rail giant Norfolk Southern Railway Co. are locked in an 11th-hour dispute over price and access to land that the state needs soon to avoid a costly delay of the Inner Belt Bridge project.

 

Norfolk Southern security this week forced bridge subcontractors to stop clearing trees from land that's a short walk south from Progressive Field.

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation responded by asking U.S. District Court Thursday for an order allowing the state to take the land -- or at least to keep railroad security from hindering its bridge-related work.

Read more at: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/post_469.html

For background, the railroad industry (both freight and passenger) is one of the few industries that have police departments with full arrest powers as any other public-sector law enforcement agency. They also as fully armed as any law enforcement agent.

I am going to break my self imposed ban to say that KJP's inner belt plan was/is brilliant.  It would have done more positive things to transform downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods than just about any other infrastructure plan I can think of.  The city's (and yes Mayor's Office) refusal to fight for the city is evidence of the permanent and systemic malaise that effects Cleveland.

 

This should have been a no brainer.

 

Now, go ahead and ban me permanently for bringing up the Mayor.

 

How is Toronto twice as dense as New York?  Or are those MSA densities?

 

How is Moscow more dense than Tokyo? Even in 1989 I find that hard to be true.

 

Singapore has a similar density to Vienna?!?

 

Most of the densities make sense but some are very odd.

 

Also, the chart is extremely Eurocentric. What about Bangkok, Chennai, New Delhi, Beijing, Seoul, Shanghai, Kuala Lampur? Hell what about Mexico City, Bogota, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires? Cape Town, Nairobi, Cairo, Lagos?

 

It's a great looking chart but it's missing a lot of the world largest cities.

 

 

It's a generalized graph, not entirely accurate, that should be taken at face value.

You all are missing the energy consumption component of the graph. I suspect the energy consumption data for many cities wasn't available.

You all are missing the energy consumption component of the graph. I suspect the energy consumption data for many cities wasn't available.

 

I understand the point and I'm not dismissing the graph. I'd just like to a see a similar comparison with a more worldwide perspective. Most of the fastest growing cities in the world aren't in Europe, North America or Australia. I'm sure there's energy consumption data for large cities in China, India, Thailand, South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, etc. I mean they found data for Moscow when it was still part of the CCCP!

 

Anyway, I'm getting off-topic.

ODOT will pay $29.8 million to Norfolk Southern, settling a dispute that threatened Inner Belt Bridge project

Published: Tuesday, June 07, 2011, 11:11 AM    Updated: Tuesday, June 07, 2011, 1:22 PM

By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- ODOT will buy 50 acres for $29.8 million from Norfolk Southern Railway Co. to settle a dispute that  threatened to delay the Inner Belt Bridge project.

 

The deal allows bridge contractors immediate access to the land south of Progressive Field that ODOT needs for bridge and road work.

 

Read more at: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/post_470.html

From that article, one gets the impression ODOT didn't think this through very well.

Ouch, ODOT, I mean taxpayers were just "railroaded"..

well, good thing they came in under budget for the bridge

On the bright side ODOT is functioning at the same capacity as private enterprise as long as the enterprise you're looking at is Rock Gaming.

FYI the R/W plans prepared for the design build letting are here:

 

ftp://ftp.dot.state.oh.us/pub/Contracts/Cuy90RFP/Appendix%20RW/RW-03_Right-Of-Way_Plans.pdf

 

Near as can tell, its for the 632WDV parcels shown on Sheet 34/50 of those plans, for the 9th Street Relocation, more wider view on sheet 13/50. Wouldn't the cheaper option be to change those parcels acquired over the RR yard to allow grade crossing of 9th St relocated so that the yard could be re activated in the future?

The rail yard will probably not be reactivated. Norfolk Southern had an intermodal facility there, but moved it to a much larger site in Maple Heights where trains could access the yard from both ends. That could not be done at the downtown site. Although the truck access was probably better at the downtown site because it is closer to more highway ramps.

Dang, That's a lot of dough to buy some time (e.g. keep it the appropriation out of Federal Courts). Is the remaining 40 Acres in anyway marketable to be sold off after the project is done?

Probably for some sort of real estate development.

 

But that site has sat vacant and for-sale for 10 years since NS moved its intermodal facility out of there.

...So NS used this leverage to unload the site for almost $30 million

...So NS used this leverage to unload the site for almost $30 million

 

As was said above "railroaded."

Yep. ODOT paid NS an unreasonable amount of money for that site. According to the county auditor's website, 10 acres of the NS site was valued at $1,277,500 for tax purposes. The total area sold was 50 acres. The website does not show values for the other parcels. However, five times $1,277,500 is nearly $6.5 million. Now I realize the county often undervalues properties, but by almost 1/5th?

 

Nice job, ODOT! Nice job, NS!

If you haven't lately go to the innerbelt facebook page and check out the new ariels on the photo wall. Looking at them helps to understand the scope of the project.

 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clevelands-Innerbelt-Bridge/158130137575685

June 21, 2011, 3:26 p.m. EDT

Baker to Design New Cleveland Innerbelt Bridge

 

CLEVELAND, Jun 21, 2011 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Michael Baker Jr., Inc., an engineering unit of Michael Baker Corporation BKR -1.06% , announced today that it and project team members have been selected by the Ohio Department of Transportation (ODOT) to design the new Eastbound Interstate 90 Cleveland Innerbelt Bridge in downtown Cleveland, Ohio. Baker is a subconsultant to Richland Engineering Ltd.

 

Specifically, Baker will provide design and plan production for the design of the main viaduct superstructure, public involvement services, utility and agency coordination, and waterway permitting services. The new structure will be approximately 4,000 feet long and has an estimated construction value of approximately $350 million. Baker's design fee, including final design services scheduled for completion in June 2013, will be approximately $3 million.

 

The new bridge will be a unique steel delta frame bridge, which is an uncommon structure type, and will consist of a number of long spans with very tall piers. Among the challenges will be making the new structure compatible with the new Westbound I-90 Innerbelt Bridge, which is currently under construction. Baker will assist ODOT with significant outreach and coordination with the local communities adjacent to downtown Cleveland to incorporate project aesthetics and architectural landscaping.

 

John Dietrick, P.E., S.E., Baker's Bridge Technical Services manager and project principal, said, "The selection of the Richland Team for this important project will result in Baker's continued excellent support of the Ohio Department of Transportation on the largest construction program in the state. Our bridge engineers are excited about the opportunity to design a unique, complex interstate structure within several blocks of our downtown Cleveland office."

 

Michael Baker Corporation ( www.mbakercorp.com ) provides engineering, design, planning and construction services for its clients' most complex challenges worldwide. The firm's primary business areas are architecture, aviation, defense, environmental, geospatial, homeland security, municipal & civil, pipelines & utilities, rail & transit, transportation and water. With more than 2,800 employees in nearly 90 offices across the United States, Baker is focused on creating value by delivering innovative and sustainable solutions for infrastructure and the environment.

 

SOURCE: Michael Baker Corporation

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/baker-to-design-new-cleveland-innerbelt-bridge-2011-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Cross-posted with the Cleveland Demolition Watch thread - demolition of the Cleveland Cold Storage building is well underway:

 

Does anyone of have a graphic that illustrates the 50 acres that ODOT just bought?

I thought they were going to implode that warehouse? Guess not.....

 

Does anyone of have a graphic that illustrates the 50 acres that ODOT just bought?

 

I hope this helps....

 

 

 

Why so much land? See....

 

I thought they were going to implode that warehouse? Guess not.....

 

If I remember correctly, ODOT determined that an implosion would run the risk of further destabilizing the hillside, so the slow demolition was the preferred method.

Thanks! That is shocking to me -- in terms of how delicate that hillside is.

Just like the soil underneath the CBD; most of the soil just below street level in Ohio City/Tremont is glacial shale.

Yes, but in the 44 years I've lived in Greater Cleveland, I've never heard of such serious slope stability issues along the Cuyahoga valley as I have in recent years. Maybe I've just never noticed it before, but I'd never heard until recently of the river being threatened with closure if the hillside below the CMHA high-rises slides down. And, to bring this back to the thread's topic, ODOT has to jack up the Inner Belt bridge every so often because its foundations are moving. That's why the new bridge is being built with no footers set into the hillside. Was this slope's stability not in question 50-60 years ago when the Inner Belt bridge was designed/built? I would love to see some historical context either way.

June 21, 2011, 3:26 p.m. EDT

Baker to Design New Cleveland Innerbelt Bridge

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/baker-to-design-new-cleveland-innerbelt-bridge-2011-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

 

So help me understand this....the eastbound design may be different than the westbound design?  You'd think they would be the same no?  That's like taking the front end of a cruise ship and sticking the ass end of an aircraft carrier on the back.  Both big and sturdy but completely different.

June 21, 2011, 3:26 p.m. EDT

Baker to Design New Cleveland Innerbelt Bridge

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/baker-to-design-new-cleveland-innerbelt-bridge-2011-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

 

So help me understand this....the eastbound design may be different than the westbound design?  You'd think they would be the same no?  That's like taking the front end of a cruise ship and sticking the ass end of an aircraft carrier on the back.  Both big and sturdy but completely different.

 

Both bridges will look the same, style-wise, but because the second bridge will need to cross the river valley at different points/terrains/angles, it needs to be designed and engineered differently.  You can't just make a carbon copy of the first bridge, slide it north, and hope it meets land at both ends.  At least that's how I understand it.

I just came past the Cold Storage Building on Abbey, must've been 30-40 people standing around, sitting in cars, watching the demo progress, taking pictures.  It is pretty awesome, watching the destruction take place.

Thanks for the graphic!!!

 

Wow that's A LOT of land for interchanges  :-( 

Note in the second graphic I posted that Commercial Road hill will be closed and the road relocated with a more gentle grade up to the relocated intersections of East 9th-Broadway and East 9th-Orange. ODOT proposes creation of a street block in that area (with curved streets -- ODOT is so suburban!  :x) for future development.

June 21, 2011, 3:26 p.m. EDT

Baker to Design New Cleveland Innerbelt Bridge

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/baker-to-design-new-cleveland-innerbelt-bridge-2011-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

So help me understand this....the eastbound design may be different than the westbound design?  You'd think they would be the same no?  ...

Both bridges will look the same, style-wise, but because the second bridge will need to cross the river valley at different points/terrains/angles, it needs to be designed and engineered differently.  You can't just make a carbon copy of the first bridge, slide it north, and hope it meets land at both ends.  ...

Thanks.

Need some bike lanes on the new span

Cross-posted with the demolition thread - the Cleveland Cold Storage building:

 

Is it completely down Mayday?? I pretty walk everywhere so I rarely drive past it.

^To the point that it's below grade of Abbey Avenue except for a few piles of rubble.

I like the view on the way into downtown now without the cold storage building up there blocking the skyline.  It'll still take a little bit to get used to, but with the new bridges, casino, etc it's a nice entrance into Cleveland.

From Canal Road - the first of the pylons to go up:

 

Wow!  Very strange to actually see it starting to take shape.

Let's hope the second phase is of better design. I can't wait for this to be finnished tho, by all means it definately needed to be rebuilt. Is the first bridge supposed to be finnished by 2013 ? I know that bridge by the zoo seem like it took forever to be built lol. Nice to see it taking up shape tho kind've refreshing in the least(:.

Although it would look rather strange of the second bridge was a different design than the first one. 

Let's hope the second phase is of better design. I can't wait for this to be finnished tho, by all means it definately needed to be rebuilt. Is the first bridge supposed to be finnished by 2013 ? I know that bridge by the zoo seem like it took forever to be built lol. Nice to see it taking up shape tho kind've refreshing in the least(:.

 

They built the Fulton Road bridge over the zoo using a non-standardized design for 2010 (although it was a pretty standard design for 1930). The Inner Belt bridge is much more standardized although has some elements which differentiate it a bit from other large Interstate bridges.

I am trying to understand how when it's all done, the two bridges will link into the existing I-90 roadways on both ends without creating bottlenecks.  Will there still be three lanes each way between Ontario and St Clair?

I believe the ultimate goal is to have the freeway widened to 5 lanes in each direction from Dead Man's curve thru the new bridges. This wiwll include making Dead Man's curve less tight and safer. There has been lots of issues over ODOT securing the land needed for the right of way and I'm not sure exactly where they (ODOT) are at in those land negotiations.

 

Ultimately that bridge needed to be replaced ASAP and ODOT knowing that eventually they would need a 5 lane (In each direction) bridge went ahead and built it with the future added lanes in mind.

So the link below is not for everybody. But if you are interested in the behind the scenes discussion of the Innerbelt bridge and the eventual Trench project then click away. The PDF is from a 2005 meeting of NOACA as they discuss the future bridge project. Some of you will recognize a few of the participants. Pages from about 10 thru 38 talk about the Trench and the interchanges, pages 38 thru 55 discuss the bridge options and the placement. One thing that stands out is how ODOT was convinced that the current bridge would only need to be re-decked and it would last another 50 years. I think we all know how that came out. So if your like me and obsessed with the Innerbelt bridge construction then happy reading. Let me know if the link doesnt work.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/Innerbelt/Documents/TranscriptfromtheNOACAMeetingNov17.pdf