29 minutes ago, Dev said:

To me, this illustration seems like a compelling argument for retaining Mehring Way. I'm all for street diets ... but removing Mehring Way west of Central Ave would reduce connectivity and funnel more traffic onto 2nd St (which is in dire need of a drastic diet).

Edited September 20, 2024Sep 20 by jwulsin

Sorry if I missed this but do we know when Hilltop is clearing out of this site? Or have they already?

27 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

To me, this illustration seems like a compelling argument for retaining Mehring Way. I'm all for street diets ... but removing Mehring Way west of Central Ave would reduce connectivity and funnel more traffic onto 2nd St (which is in dire need of a drastic diet).

I cant imagine 2nd street getting a diet, Every one of those lanes are packed full during sporting events/festival etc and even just busy weekends sometimes. Making 2nd/3rd smaller would be a disaster. These streets are wide for a reason. 2 Stadiums an Arena, The Banks, Concert Venue, 2nd needs to stay as is.

Edited September 20, 2024Sep 20 by 646empire

I'm not sure how removing those two blocks of Mehring Way would add more traffic on 2nd/3rd. All traffic to/from The Banks garage could still using Mehring/Pete Rose Way to access the Sixth Street Expressway without needing to use 2nd/3rd. You could even rename that section of W. Pete Rose Way to Mehring Way to make it more of a relocation than a removal:

 

Isn't this example the complete opposite of what the Bengals want in their new design? Frankly I don't see what is wrong with the road and I don't see why it would be necessary to have a park run all the way to Longworth Hall. I love me some green space but maybe a nice riverside bike trail connecting the new lots to Smale would be sufficient. Could even work as parking for Reds games. Then just walk to The Banks.

Yeah I don't see any benefit of removing Mehring way.  I have no problem with the proposal to move it a little south but maintain the road.  It is very much used by west siders who come to the Banks for games/events. There's no reason to make it harder for one side of town to get to the banks just for a slight increase in park space.  We already have two large parks right there on the river and there's pretty much never an issue with finding open space when you want to visit.  

1 hour ago, anusthemenace said:

Isn't this example the complete opposite of what the Bengals want in their new design? Frankly I don't see what is wrong with the road and I don't see why it would be necessary to have a park run all the way to Longworth Hall. I love me some green space but maybe a nice riverside bike trail connecting the new lots to Smale would be sufficient. Could even work as parking for Reds games. Then just walk to The Banks.

This isn't a proposal from the Bengals, it's from the County in attempt to make an offer that locks them into a renewal that's at least 10 years. The Bengals only want to renew up to 5 years, presumably because they want to see if the political/financial climate is better to request a new, domed stadium.

2 minutes ago, Dev said:

This isn't a proposal from the Bengals, it's from the County in attempt to make an offer that locks them into a renewal that's at least 10 years. The Bengals only want to renew up to 5 years, presumably because they want to see if the political/financial climate is better to request a new, domed stadium.

I’m told the the gov is looking for 20 years, they are not spending a billion dollars for a 10 year extension that would be insane. And If that’s the bengals intent buckle up. I don’t see any scenario in which the Hamilton County Public or Gov is going to stomach a new stadium in 5 or 10 years, Paycor is simply not in a condition or design that warrants demolition. I wouldnt mind at all to see them move out to the suburbs if they want a new place.

5 minutes ago, 646empire said:

I’m told the the gov is looking for 20 years, they are not spending a billion dollars for a 10 year extension that would be insane. And If that’s the bengals intent buckle up. I don’t see any scenario in which the Hamilton County Public or Gov is going to stomach a new stadium in 5 or 10 years, Paycor is simply not in a condition or design that warrants demolition. I wouldnt mind at all to see them move out to the suburbs if they want a new place.

That's my set of assumptions as well. Hopefully the longer-term order of events becomes clear through this process, but I doubt that

I am somewhat surprised that MSA did not attempt to incorporate the changes to I-75, Clay Wade Bailey, and the surrounding street grid that are coming from the BSB work.  That whole area will be under construction for the next 7 years.

FC Cincinnati's Berding on $1.3B Paycor Stadium renovation plan: 'We just can’t afford that'

By Brian Planalp – Staff reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Oct 8, 2024

 

The $1.3 billion Paycor Stadium renovation plan floated last month has at least one local detractor in FC Cincinnati co-CEO and Visit Cincy board Chairman Jeff Berding.

 

Berding, speaking at a University of Cincinnati Real Estate Center/Urban Land Institute panel discussion Oct. 4 at Music Hall, called the plan the “fantasy” of leadership at the Banks.

 

“It was a vision, and I want to be fair, it was a very thoughtful one. It involved the complete buildout of the Bengals' practice fields to have a new office building, which gets them out of the stadium, which allows for other events, like the World Cup, which is important,” Berding said. “So there were aspects of it that were thought-provoking. But I think there are some in the region who think this is the team’s ask – it wasn’t – or the county commissioners’ plan – it wasn’t. It was, maybe, a conversation starter.”

 

MORE

4 hours ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

But I think there are some in the region who think this is the team’s ask – it wasn’t – or the county commissioners’ plan – it wasn’t.

 

This quote from Berding confuses me. Here's how the latest proposal was described in the Sept 17th Courier article: 
 

Quote

 

Architects unveiled a $1.3 billion transformation of the Cincinnati Bengals' Paycor Stadium and the surrounding area, with the goal of using the stadium more outside of football season and adding more spaces for fans.

The vision, commissioned by the county with input from the Bengals, calls for moving Mehring Way to the south along the riverfront.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2024/09/17/bengals-paycor-stadium-renovations-revealed-cost.html

 

Why is Berding now saying it didn't come from the team or the county commissioners? 

16 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Why is Berding now saying it didn't come from the team or the county commissioners? 

The proposal came from the county's administration. I think he's saying that the proposal isn't a strictly defined offer from the county commissioners, but instead the maximum possible proposal that could be done from a practical sense, not a political or financial one.

Hamilton County confirms it will look at dome for Paycor Stadium

By Chris Wetterich – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier Oct 16, 2024

 

 

 

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Hamilton County is examining the cost of a dome for Paycor Stadium
• County commissioners proposed the dome in 2023 for year-round use
• The Bengals previously said they are not interested in a dome or new stadium

 

Hamilton County will look at how much it will cost and the logistics of putting a dome on top of Paycor Stadium, a spokeswoman said.

 

County commissioners first raised the idea of putting a dome on the Cincinnati Bengals’ stadium in 2023, under the theory that a facility with a roof could be used more year-round. Using the stadium for more than Cincinnati Bengals games is a top priority for commissioners as they look at upgrades and explore extending the lease with the team, which expires in 2026. Putting a dome on the stadium also comes up often in social media discussions.

 

But this week is the first time the county administration has confirmed it is carrying out some sort of examination of capping the stadium with a dome, a project that surely will be pricey.

 

Cont

it comes up often in social media discussions, guys.

4 minutes ago, zsnyder said:

it comes up often in social media discussions, guys.

 

I lol'd so hard at that. 

If you're going to spend $1 billion on a stadium just build a new one from scratch. 

US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis cost $1.06 billion. You could build a new Bengals stadium in Butler, Warren, and/or Claremont County for a billion in an unused office park or abandoned mall. 

 

1. US Bank Stadium was built 10 years ago so I'm sure it would cost more now.

2. No one wants the stadium in the burbs. 

40 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

2. No one wants the stadium in the burbs. 

I disagree, I think they should move to Middletown to gain more Cin-Day regional support and rename them the Butler County Bengals. 

 

/s if that wasn't obvious

On the topic of a dome - and it may have been discussed in detail already in this thread - but is it a possibility to cap Paycor? I would think you could do that for a quarter bill. 

 

24 minutes ago, Rabbit Hash said:

On the topic of a dome - and it may have been discussed in detail already in this thread - but is it a possibility to cap Paycor? I would think you could do that for a quarter bill. 

 

More than that

4 minutes ago, 646empire said:

More than that

"Hard Rock Stadium in Miami, Florida has a 622,000 square foot steel and cable suspension roof that was added during a $500 million renovation in 2015 and 2016"

 

2 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

2. No one wants the stadium in the burbs. 

 

A lot of newer NFL stadiums are building in the suburbs. Having a downtown NFL stadium is a rarity.

I would be OK with a new Bengals stadium being built in the 'burbs if:

 

• We didn't already have a dedicated FC Cincinnati stadium and Paycor could be reconfigured into a more intimate stadium for FC Cincinnati; or
• We weren't already rebuilding the Convention Center in its current location and could build a brand new convention center replacing Paycor, allowing the existing convention center to be demolished, the street grid reconnected, and new walkable mixed-use development to be built there.

Since those aren't the case, I think it's a better outcome for everyone to simply renovate Paycor. Didn't one of the Warren County commissioners even say recently that the Bengals should stay downtown?

The geometry and structural demands of adding a dome to the existing structure is going to be borderline impossible. It would probably be cheaper to demolish the stadium and start from scratch if a dome was wanted. It won't happen

Probably cheaper to just renovate Paycor and just build a new arena, right?

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

"Hard Rock Stadium in Miami, Florida has a 622,000 square foot steel and cable suspension roof that was added during a $500 million renovation in 2015 and 2016"

 

Hard Rock Stadium is not enclosed. What they did is went the soccer stadium route by adding just enough to cover all the seats from sun and rain but not “dome it”. And the chief reason they didn’t do it is because it would have been so expensive. What Cincy is looking at is capping the stadium totally.

Edited October 16, 2024Oct 16 by 646empire

2 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

A lot of newer NFL stadiums are building in the suburbs. Having a downtown NFL stadium is a rarity.

It may become a rarity but it’s certainly common right now. Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pitt, Cleveland, Chicago, Philly, LA, Vegas, Detroit and more are all downtown/city stadiums.

2 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

The geometry and structural demands of adding a dome to the existing structure is going to be borderline impossible. It would probably be cheaper to demolish the stadium and start from scratch if a dome was wanted. It won't happen

That will certain be the report outcome most likely. It would be so expensive to renovate and add a roof it would be pointless.

9 minutes ago, 646empire said:

It may become a rarity but it’s certainly common right now. Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pitt, Cleveland, Chicago, Philly, LA, Vegas, Detroit and more are all downtown/city stadiums.

I would think the city would do whatever it could to keep the stadium at the Banks. The Bengals are really the only thing keeping the banks businesses afloat during the winter. The Music venue helps but doesn’t help anywhere near as much as the Bengals. 

23 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

I would think the city would do whatever it could to keep the stadium at the Banks. The Bengals are really the only thing keeping the banks businesses afloat during the winter. The Music venue helps but doesn’t help anywhere near as much as the Bengals. 

 

The Bengals play like 3-4 home games every winter. This isn't keeping the businesses at The Banks afloat. It's helpful, but I don't think it's much compared to the 4 months of slow business

There's a reason that the east side of The Banks developed first and the streetcar connects to that side, while the west side is still largely undeveloped. There are far more baseball games each season and those fans are more likely to come early/stick around after, or make a whole day in the urban core out of their visit.

8 hours ago, taestell said:

I would be OK with a new Bengals stadium being built in the 'burbs if:

 

• We didn't already have a dedicated FC Cincinnati stadium and Paycor could be reconfigured into a more intimate stadium for FC Cincinnati; or
• We weren't already rebuilding the Convention Center in its current location and could build a brand new convention center replacing Paycor, allowing the existing convention center to be demolished, the street grid reconnected, and new walkable mixed-use development to be built there.

Since those aren't the case, I think it's a better outcome for everyone to simply renovate Paycor. Didn't one of the Warren County commissioners even say recently that the Bengals should stay downtown?

3rd options: Bengals move out of the urban core, new arena takes their spot, current arena location becomes condos/hotel/office allowing the Broadway and Taylor Southgate intersections to be converted into something that isn't a deathtrap.

  

8 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

The geometry and structural demands of adding a dome to the existing structure is going to be borderline impossible. It would probably be cheaper to demolish the stadium and start from scratch if a dome was wanted. It won't happen

This also means the Bengals would have to play at least one season somewhere else as it's probably impossible to implode and build new in like 8 months. What are the odds that the Bengals and UC would be able to come to terms to play in Nippert for a year?

It's great the county is doing the study though so the argument can finally be put to bed and we can start having the real conversation of what can realistically happen.

How much will the survey cost and why isn’t COAST suing to stop it?

The expansion of the BCS playoff to 12 games + the NFL's talk of playing the NFC/AFC championships at a neutral site (similar pomp to the Superbowl w/celebrity halftimes) is a way to push cities to build new domed stadiums in pursuit of these events.  So we could see The Bengals & county agree to do two 5-year lease renewals then talk about doing a dome in the late 2030s. 

 

The problem is that these big events don't really lead to anything.  New Orleans has hosted the Super Bowl 10+ times and it's still a dump. 

Yeah I'm not really sure what purpose a $1B dome serves.  Those winter mega-events are few and far between.  Super Bowl, NCAAF, and Final Four? Maybe 1 extra big-time concert a year?  So, we'd get maybe 1-4 more days a year where the stadium is full.  Not sure that equates to an investment that large.

Edited October 17, 2024Oct 17 by 10albersa

18 hours ago, 646empire said:

It may become a rarity but it’s certainly common right now. Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pitt, Cleveland, Chicago, Philly, LA, Vegas, Detroit and more are all downtown/city stadiums.

 

Calling Philly's stadium a "city" stadium is generous. LA's new stadium is in a suburban area as well on top of an old horse racing track. Chicago is moving to another old horse track as soon as the realize they can't bilk the state for more $.

 

11 hours ago, Dev said:

3rd options: Bengals move out of the urban core, new arena takes their spot, current arena location becomes condos/hotel/office allowing the Broadway and Taylor Southgate intersections to be converted into something that isn't a deathtrap.

 

This would be my preferred option. Tell the Bengals to saw it off and move to Mason. Build a new arena on the Paycor site with more apartments and condos surrounding it and build condos on the Heritage Bank arena site. Redirect the property taxes from those new residential sites to help pay for the construction, etc. That side of the Banks is a little better now that the Brady is open but it's still a ghost town.

 

9 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

Yeah I'm not really sure what purpose a $1B dome serves.  Those winter mega-events are few and far between.  Super Bowl, NCAAF, and Final Four? Maybe 1 extra big-time concert a year?  So, we'd get maybe 1-4 more days a year where the stadium is full.  Not sure that equates to an investment that large.

 

Just spitballing but, a dome gives you the option to host: Final Four, Bowl Games, various WWE events, larger concerts like Taylor Swift/Beyonce/ an the country festivals that use big stadiums.

 

The lack of events is exactly why you don't build something like this in the middle of a city where businesses rely on the frequency of events to help support the business. A new arena at the Paycor site would have something going on most nights and you'd free up space for housing which would create a permanent customer base. 

 

20 hours ago, taestell said:

We didn't already have a dedicated FC Cincinnati stadium and Paycor could be reconfigured into a more intimate stadium for FC Cincinnati; or

 

Why even mention this? We got the best soccer stadium in the country and the taxpayers didn't have to build it. Reconfiguring Paycor down to 25,000 seats would cost just as much if not more than TQL Stadium and would have a terrible atmosphere for soccer.

9 hours ago, Lazarus said:

The expansion of the BCS playoff to 12 games + the NFL's talk of playing the NFC/AFC championships at a neutral site (similar pomp to the Superbowl w/celebrity halftimes) is a way to push cities to build new domed stadiums in pursuit of these events.  So we could see The Bengals & county agree to do two 5-year lease renewals then talk about doing a dome in the late 2030s. 

 

The problem is that these big events don't really lead to anything.  New Orleans has hosted the Super Bowl 10+ times and it's still a dump. 

 

So the AFC/NFC halftime shows would be like, Creed

Where do you guys think the suburbs are going to come up with hundreds of millions of dollars to help pay for a new stadium?  Everyone knows the Brown family isn't paying for a new or renovated stadium all by themselves.  Hamilton county has the existing stadium tax that can continue to be used.  None of the suburb counties have a way of coming up with that much money. 

Mike Brown is worth 3 billion. Yes, most of his wealth is from his ownership of the Bengals, but that is the same for his ownership of the Bears, and they're looking at moving to Arlington Heights. The money is in the big real estate developments that surround the stadium.

21 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Calling Philly's stadium a "city" stadium is generous. LA's new stadium is in a suburban area as well on top of an old horse racing track. Chicago is moving to another old horse track as soon as the realize they can't bilk the state for more $.

LA’s stadium is in a suburban area???? LOL it’s in Inglewood, have you ever been to LA??!!

 

The bears have canceled the suburb move and is pursuing downtown- lakefront

 

and Phillys Lincoln Financial IS in the city I’ve been there. Just because a stadium isn’t in downtown proper doesn’t make it suburban lol.

Edited October 17, 2024Oct 17 by 646empire

11 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Bears, and they're looking at moving to Arlington Heights.

The bears are not the bengals and Cincinnati is not Chicago they are very different and financing these projects will be very different. Also again this is incorrect a quick google search and you would find The Bears, City and State are now on to a new lakefront stadium with mix use. Could they still go to Arlington if things really fall apart sure but that’s not the plan anymore.

 

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/bears-new-stadium-chicago.amp

Edited October 17, 2024Oct 17 by 646empire

The Bears are holding on to the Arlington Heights land in case they can't bilk the state for money.  They're not 100% staying on the lake front and the White Sox are also trying to get state money for a new stadium in downtown Chicago. The point remains that the Bears, whose ownership is rich because of the football team, still own a ton of land for a stadium and mixed use development just in case they can't get a new development for free. Plus the NFL is opening up to private equity which will give owners even more $. Arlington Heights isn't dead.

 

Inglewood started out as a suburb of LA and is a sea of single family homes. The new LA stadium and arena was built on the old Hollywood race track in an ocean of parking. Again, calling Philly's stadium islands in an ocean of parking part of the "city" is being very generous. Sure it's in the city limits but it's not in downtown Philly. Having an NFL stadium right on prime downtown real estate is a rarity in the NFL. 

 

• Cowboys - Arlington Texas
• Jets/Giants - Meadowlands NJ
• Patriots - Foxboro
• Bucs - Stadium out by the airport
• LA - Stadium out by the airport
• Miami - suburban stadium
• Philly - Gigantic parking lot near the Navy Yard
• Arizona - middle of nowhere Glendale
• Washington - Landover Maryland but looking to relocate to suburban Virginia
• San Francisco - In a parking lot in Santa Clara next to a Cedar Fair amusement park (Benglas to Mason anyone?)
• Cleveland - looking to relocate next to the airport
• Buffalo - Orchard Park
• Houston - In a sea of parking next to the Astrodome

You get the idea. Having a pro football stadium on prime real estate is a huge waste of space and money. If UC also played there maybe it would make sense. 

 

Also, my main beef is that they're asking for a billion dollars for what amounts to a nice practice facility. Not a new stadium or a roof or anything like that. A practice facility that the team should have built 20 years ago somewhere in the suburbs. That's an even bigger grift than the original stadium deal. 

22 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

The Bears are holding on to the Arlington Heights land in case they can't bilk the state for money.  They're not 100% staying on the lake front and the White Sox are also trying to get state money for a new stadium in downtown Chicago. The point remains that the Bears, whose ownership is rich because of the football team, still own a ton of land for a stadium and mixed use development just in case they can't get a new development for free. Plus the NFL is opening up to private equity which will give owners even more $. Arlington Heights isn't dead.

 

Inglewood started out as a suburb of LA and is a sea of single family homes. The new LA stadium and arena was built on the old Hollywood race track in an ocean of parking. Again, calling Philly's stadium islands in an ocean of parking part of the "city" is being very generous. Sure it's in the city limits but it's not in downtown Philly. Having an NFL stadium right on prime downtown real estate is a rarity in the NFL. 

 

• Cowboys - Arlington Texas
• Jets/Giants - Meadowlands NJ
• Patriots - Foxboro
• Bucs - Stadium out by the airport
• LA - Stadium out by the airport
• Miami - suburban stadium
• Philly - Gigantic parking lot near the Navy Yard
• Arizona - middle of nowhere Glendale
• Washington - Landover Maryland but looking to relocate to suburban Virginia
• San Francisco - In a parking lot in Santa Clara next to a Cedar Fair amusement park (Benglas to Mason anyone?)
• Cleveland - looking to relocate next to the airport
• Buffalo - Orchard Park
• Houston - In a sea of parking next to the Astrodome

You get the idea. Having a pro football stadium on prime real estate is a huge waste of space and money. If UC also played there maybe it would make sense. 

 

Also, my main beef is that they're asking for a billion dollars for what amounts to a nice practice facility. Not a new stadium or a roof or anything like that. A practice facility that the team should have built 20 years ago somewhere in the suburbs. That's an even bigger grift than the original stadium deal. 

 

All of those cities (with the exception of Buffalo and Cleveland) are much larger metropolitan areas. 

 

"Out by the airport" for LA is 11 miles from downtown. For Tampa it's 4 miles...

 

I'd love to know (just curiosity) how many non-NFL events Lucas Oil hosts over any given winter. 

https://www.lucasoilstadium.com/events-tickets/

So probably double-digit events which would be significant in a 65k+ venue. Some of those can be replicated in other states and wouldn't be taken away from Lucas Oil (OHSAA Football, Motorcross, etc)

Everyone knows the Brown family aren't going to pay for a new or renovated stadium by themselves.  How is a suburb county going to get the needed hundreds of millions of dollars?  Hamilton county has the stadium tax that has no sunshine clause, so it will continue to be used to pay for these type of things.  This is why I don't see any way the stadium ever leaves for a new county.