I don't know if that's what this emerging project will be called, but a failed project from about 10-15 years ago and in the same location was to be called Gray's Green.

 

This time, however, it's been "Stark-ified"

What's the project?

I don't know if that's what this emerging project will be called, but a failed project from about 10-15 years ago and in the same location was to be called Gray's Green.

 

This time, however, it's been "Stark-ified"

 

What's that mean...Suburban lifestyle center???

 

Just kiddin'!

 

All this news. It's great!

is this within the Stark-zone???  or is this another area downtown??  when are we gonna hear more info on this??

Not sure yet. The old Gray's Green was a mixed-use development comprised mostly of infill on parking lots and rehabs of existing buildings east of Jacobs Field to around 14th Street and south of Playhouse Square to Carnegie. And if I remember right, there was also supposed to be some greenspace mixed in to warrant the name of the development.

 

Some of you may recall in a recent Crain's article that Stark had options to buy land from USA Parking. That's what those options are all about.

I'm curious as to the land values in that area. The parking is not that expensive. I park in a $2 a day lot that I believe is one of the optioned parcels.

That's interesting. My friend's car got stolen over in that vicinity last month :O

 

We need Westlake police downtown.

That's interesting. My friend's car got stolen over in that vicinity last month :O

 

During the day or at night?

During the day, I believe. She works in the Hanna Building and parks in a $1 lot. It's not a good place to park, that's for sure. Her last car got broken into last year in the same lot.

There are $1 lots?? I've got to find those. Ah doesn't matter, I'm back to taking the bus next week anyway. 

She called it a dollar lot. Maybe it's not technically a dollar, haha. It's near the I-77/90 on-ramp.

Does she work at Cleveland Magazine? Seems like everyone from the Hanna works there (myself not included).

Westlake Reed Leskoski Architects has a proposal for this area in their offices.  The model is pretty interesting.  They see the middle of the block being infiltrated with public space from the NW, and program blending in and out of that space from what I could tell.  Also, part of the proposal cantilevers over to the NW corner of E14th and Carnegie, creating a portal into the city when coming from the south.  I'm not sure if they have been in talks with Stark or if the proposal is totally speculative at this point.  We'll see I guess.

Westlake Reed Leskoski Architects has a proposal for this area in their offices.  The model is pretty interesting.  They see the middle of the block being infiltrated with public space from the NW, and program blending in and out of that space from what I could tell.  Also, part of the proposal cantilevers over to the NW corner of E14th and Carnegie, creating a portal into the city when coming from the south.  I'm not sure if they have been in talks with Stark or if the proposal is totally speculative at this point.  We'll see I guess.

 

I'm pretty sure that WRL is working with Stark on this one.

That is correct. Stark hired WRL to do the site planning.

I hope Stark sticks to the infill theory in this neighborhood.  So far, it seems that he's more of a "clean slate" kinda developer...

True. But I was told that this development is much less "intense" than what he's done before. He is also doing this project jointly with Lou Frangos so there will be Frango's stamp on that project. Whatever that means.....

 

Geez, I'm spilling way too much here. By the time I get around to writing the article, I might as well just refer Sun's readers here!

Does the name have anything to do with Gray's Armory one block over?

Yes.

Does she work at Cleveland Magazine? Seems like everyone from the Hanna works there (myself not included).

 

Haha, actually she does work for that company.

Sounds cool.  I can't wait to see some renderings and site plans.  Don't know about the greenspace, though.  I see an aweful lot of it downtown going unused.

He is also doing this project jointly with Lou Frangos so there will be Frango's stamp on that project. Whatever that means.....

 

Surface parking lots?

From what I saw of the model, it will be like nothing else ever built in this city.  That's a good thing.

what were the building heights like?

It varied throughout, but I'd say 8-15 stories.

That sounds about right... or even on the high end.  I certainly think there's room for this sort of density over there...especially abutting Carnegie or E. 9th...but I could see some smaller structures popping up over there that fit in more with what already exists in the 4 stories and under range.  As with many other bright ideas right now, the majority of this will likely not happen until the market is pushing for it.  And with Stark, et al getting involved elsewhere Downtown, I think it's wise to not spread the investment too wide just yet. 

 

Ahhh, how I long for an economic upturn in the Cleveland economy!  Where are our innovators?  Where are our entrepreneurs?  I get the feeling that they're just bubbling below the surface right now.  We've just got to keep their roots planted here when they start to grow!  But that's another thread...

All the existing buildings on the site would be razed for the new construction, which in this case, I don't have a problem with.

It varied throughout, but I'd say 8-15 stories.

 

That's a lot more intense than what I was led to believe. I will inquire further.

What are the boundaries of the area in question?  I heard Carnegie to Prospect, East 9th to East 14th.  If that is true, Frangos only owns less that 25% of the land.  Has Stark or Westlake Reed partnered with anyone else?

All the existing buildings on the site would be razed for the new construction, which in this case, I don't have a problem with.

 

Really?  There are a few really attractive old brick buildings in there.  Especially lining the cemetery.  I think those would make a cool foundation for the inner blocks of the project.  Again, on Carnegie/E. 9th/E. 14th, go big, but keep the interior cozy.  That's how I see it, at least!

As for demolition I was talking strictly about the block bounded by E14th, E18th, Prospect, Carnegie.  Not sure what the plans are from E9th to E14th.

I'd assume that the Salvation Army building would remain. Other than that, the rest of the block is nothing to write home about.

You're definitely right there, if we're talking about the E. 14-18/Prospect-Carnegie block.  That could be one helluva block to build on! 

 

The blocks directly west, between E. 14th and E. 9th, have some character that I would like to preserve.  I can see Erie & Sumner having some really nice brick rowhouses or rehabs of existing brick structures into offices/condos.

For our reference:

 

You're right, Salvation Army will stay.

What mapping software do you use Map Boy? I have to produce a map for Sun of the project area. I like what you're using.

 

I can definitely see the part between East 14th and 18th starting with a clean slate, sans the Salvation Army building. But how would having a Salvation Army facility affect housing sales in that block?

 

There's also a building on the southwest corner of East 14th that has been used a tire/car repair place. It's a very nice exterior but the interior was hollowed out to allow parking inside. That was one of the building's Stark took an option on.

That's just the City's GIS Mapping tool and a cheap version of Adobe Photoshop Elements.  I don't know that the quality is good enough for printing, but that's not for me to decide!

 

Do you have the Cuyahoga County aerial photo archive?

 

As for the Salvation Army being there... if that was an issue, then no one would be building housing in Cleveland.  I would think the Avenue District would have far greater concerns about the presence of social services on adjacent parcels/blocks and their ability to sell units.  And they've already broken ground!

 

What about the building at E. 14th & Carnegie?  Do think it's worth saving? 

if a cemetary in the backyard doesn't bother potential home buyers, I can't imagine a salvation army facility will.  I am glad this map shows area past e14th in play.

 

and not to crown myself king obvious, but it is boggling how much parking is in cleveland when you look at it with google maps.   

if a cemetary in the backyard doesn't bother potential home buyers, I can't imagine a salvation army facility will.  I am glad this map shows area past e14th in play.

 

Yeah, but dead people don't stand on the street corner at all hours of the night and make lots of noise. Why would a cemetery bother anyone anyway? They're usually very well landscaped and quiet. Plus the Erie Street Cemetery is an historic place and worth visiting. Many of the city's first settlers are buried there.

 

The Salvation Army building is a residence for low-income and homeless people. It's not some place that's active only during regular business hours. I can see some of us uptight, snobbish people to be turned off by the Salvation Army being there.

I think that the cemetery is a huge asset. Its a beautiful park with mature trees and interesting stone sculpture. With the walls and fencing, its also a great place to let your dog run free.

^You don't think its a little disrespectful to have a dog running around a cemetary? I think the issue some people have with cemetaries is the stigma they have of being spooky or creepy. People's imaginations run wild.

^You don't think its a little disrespectful to have a dog running around a cemetary? I think the issue some people have with cemetaries is the stigma they have of being spooky or creepy. People's imaginations run wild.

 

I don't think so. I do agree that some people have that notion, but the Erie St. cemetery is more of a park than anything else. No one's being buried there. People eat lunch there all the time. I also know of people who take their dogs there.

 

I also think that the cemetery is small enough where you still feel like you're in the city and not completely in a cemetery. This takes away some of the spookiness feel, imho.

I agree that Erie is a wonderful neighborhood asset... it's a great place for a lunchtime stroll.  Letting your dog run free?  Well, that's a little off.  I, for one, wouldn't want my headstone or plot serving as a urinal for a little four-legger.  I've seen these people in the cemetery and I've sneered...

So, the cemetary is going to become a park?

The cemetery doubles as a park.

OK, I'm going to sound like a total ignoramous. So people play catch, etc. in there and this is OK?

 

I'm just asking because most cemetaries I've seen have maybe been walkable and good to sit and relax and reflect, but you wouldn't normally like play flag football inside.

Well obviously you're not going to be able to do that.  It will be a place to stroll or even sit and have a picnic. The retaining walls make nice benches. Its also sort of like a little museum--there are a lot of interesting tombstones.  My favorite is Chief Joc-O-Sot.

I was not aware it was no longer active...as active as dead people buried underground can be.  I believe someone recently mentioned the cemetary having trouble with vandalism and keeping up the stones, etc.  I agree it is a nice patch of grass.  I wouldn't run my dog there, since he's a cat.

 

as far as noise/disturbance from salavation army folks, I would imagine anyone buying or renting downtown has few illusions about the tranquility of that area of the city.  it sits inside the triangle of three of the largest sports venues in the city, the jake, the q, and the convocation center.  while this is an asset as well, it certain makes for a noisy area.  personally, I like it, and often bike down to the game, just to stand outside the gates.   

True, and any place with density is going to have those features/issues.

I'm going to have trouble getting excited about this until we see some movement on the Warehouse District lots. I know Stark's in a "silent phase" on that project, but it's tough to go so long without hearing anything new. In the meantime, I can't help but look at this new project as a kind of crying wolf.