This has probably been discussed somewhere on these forums before, but does anyone have an opinion on Dayton as a top-tier sports city (MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL, MLS)???

 

I just wondered what some of the opinions out there are....

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

-The Dayton metro region (including Springfield) is the fourth largest in Ohio, with over 1 million people.  Montgomery County alone is over 500,000.

-As far as Daytonians interest in sports, University of Dayton basketball consistently draws 12,000+ and Dayton Dragons minor-league baseball continues to sell-out every game. 

-On the other hand, attendance for the Dayton Bombers minor-league hockey and Wright State University basketball isn't quite as impressive, but both are steadily improving.

 

So if Dayton were to pick up an expansion team in one of the big-time sports, what or who could it be??  Is the Dayton market too small to be a major-league city???  Is Ohio already saturated with professional sports??? 

 

The only thing that jumps out at me would maybe be basketball.  Neither Cincy or Columbus have an NBA team, and the nearest is in Cleveland.  With Dayton's proven track record of supporting basketball at the college level, could that translate to the pros??  As far as NFL, MLB, MLS, or NHL, I think the proximity to Columbus and Cincy kinda knock those out.  But maybe not....

 

I'm certainly not an expert on all this stuff and I'm honestly curious about some insight from all of you urban/city/market-size knowledgeable-type folks......

 

And in addition, what's up with Columbus only having an NHL and MLS franshise anyway??  I doubt there would be much argument that NHL and MLS are the bottom-level of top-tier pro sports, so how does a city the size of C-bus (like 15th in the nation or thereabouts) play second-fiddle to Cincy and Cleveland for the "Big 3" sports??  Just wondering.....

 

Thanks in advance for everyone's thoughts.......

 

 

^Cincy and Cleveland have more major sports teams because they have more people and because when these leagues started, Cincy and Cleveland were much more prominent that Cbus.  Cbus cant/wont get baseball or football because they are too close to bigger markets (Cincy and Cland) and plus, Cbus has the Buckeyes.  Dayton wont get any because of their proximity to CBus, Cincy, Cland, and Indy.  Plus, its probably not big enough anyway. 

I don't know...I think an argument can be made in favor of establishing an NBA franchise in Dayton.

 

As was previously mentioned, Dayton and the Miami Valley comprise of more than a million people, which is good base to begin with. However, add in the close proximity of Cincinnati and Columbus, and your potential market area explodes. Also, as mentioned, the closest professional basketball markets to Dayton are Cleveland, Detroit, and Memphis. An NBA team in Dayton would hardly be stepping on anybody's toes. Other markets, such as Grand Rapids and Louisville, have made cases for supporting a professional sports team, and both of which are of similar size to Dayton. Dayton already sees quite a few big-name music tours due to the available facilities at venues such as The Nutter Center and its proximity to both Cincinnati and Columbus, so why not shoot for professional sports? Quite frankly, I think Dayton stands the best chance of scoring an NBA team in Ohio, since Columbus already has a professional winter sport with the NHL Blue Jackets, and Xavier and UC are huge draws in Cincinnati. I'd say go for it.

The numbers seem to suggest that Dayton could support a professional team (other than MLB), at least on paper. (Related article here)  Past support of minor league teams in Dayton has been pretty lousy, but I think that may have more to do with the owners' business plans (or a seemingly lack of).  But I guess the Dragons have shown that a first rate sports operation in Dayton can be successful, so who knows, maybe an NBA team could make it...but I think there are other cities that could do a better job with luxury boxes and stuff like that.

Could Dayton support an NBA team?  Of course.  No question.

 

WILL Dayton GET an NBA team?  Not if the Pacers have anything to say about it!

I can think of way more deserving and bigger cities that should get an NBA team before Dayton.  St. Louis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, hell maybe even Honolulu.  Dayton is a minor city on a national scale, there's no way they should get a pro sports team.

Dayton currently enjoys NCAA basketball with two newsworthy teams: Raiders and the Flyers. We also currently enjoy the honor of kick starting the March Madness with the sellout play-in game and a first round bracket of the NCAA Championship Tournament: http://www.ncaasports.com/basketball/mens/schedules

 

The Bombers garnered better attention when they played at Hara than Nutter, but I think if they found a downtown location close to the 5/3 Field to host the Bombers, I think they would do better in attendance and give the area restaurants and bars a winter crowd. As do a lot of baseball, the Dragons settled in to more of a social event than a sporting event (of course until a foul ball makes its way to a chatty attendee).

 

Sports beyond the minor leagues, farm teams and college is a doubtful prospect here in Dayton. But we have is certainly not lacking.

While Dayton might be big enough to support an NBA team... why would Dayton get an NBA team before Cincy?

I don't think anybody is saying Dayton WOULD get an NBA team before Cincinnati.  The mere question is, "can Dayton support one" and the obvious answer is yes.

the obvious answer is no dayton could not support an nba team. they would need cinci support and in that case the team would be in cinci. hmm, maybe they could put the arena in between dayton and cinci, that might appease daytonians? but wait a sec, that didnt work out too well when clev did that with richfield between clev and akron, 'burban arenas suck.

 

maybe they could try for an nhl or mls team, they'd have a better chance. those miserable pro leagues are giving those franchises away in boxes of cracker jacks.

 

* i gotta say ive been to a dozen of the new minor league parks and dragons games rate as fantastic. i like the newish nut house a lot too.

 

 

I personally couldn't care less about sports, and am suprised this town even supports that baseball team, though Dayton has supported minor league baseball in the past, actually two teams at once, if one counts the Negro League Dayton Marcos.  The old ballfield was on the West Side, off of Third, and the Marcos played at Westwood Field, near Wolf Creek.

 

Pro ball support goes to the Reds here.  Football...there is a suprisngly large Browns fanbase here for some reason. But the Bengals too.

 

Baketball is college.  UofK and UD are the popular teams here.  You will see a lot of Big Blue K flags flying around town or on cars during the NCAA playoffs if Kentucky gets close.

 

the obvious answer is no dayton could not support an nba team. they would need cinci support and in that case the team would be in cinci. hmm, maybe they could put the arena in between dayton and cinci..

 

Didn't they do something like this with Dallas and Fort Worth...?

 

 

 

 

Dayton currently enjoys NCAA basketball with two newsworthy teams: Raiders and the Flyers. We also currently enjoy the honor of kick starting the March Madness with the sellout play-in game and a first round bracket of the NCAA Championship Tournament

 

That NCAA thing is becoming a bigger deal locally, it seems.  The UD Arena is a great venue, too. It was designed to be basketball palace.

 

 

Ok, many of you know that I am a huge supporter of Dayton.  But there is no way Dayton could support or attract an NBA franchise.  Like others on this post mentioned - if Ohio was to be considered for a second NBA franchise, it would no doubt be in Cinci or Columbus (and my money would be on Cinci for no particular reason).  Incidentally, that is Dayton's biggest problem in many more aspects - its close proximity to Cinci and Columbus.

 

Also....

 

I have not verified these numbers (taken from http://nbahoopsonline.com/generalinfo/Smallestmarkets.html)

 

The 15 smallest NBA cities - Listed by television market, out of 210 total areas (Number of Television Homes):

 

1.  Memphis, Tennessee (658,250)

2.  New Orleans, Louisiana (675,760)

3.  San Antonio, Texas (748,950)

4.  Salt Lake City, Utah (800,000)

5.  Milwaukee, Wisconsin (886,770)

6.  Charlotte, North Carolina (1,004,440)

7.  Indianapolis, Indiana (1,053,020)

8.  Portland, Oregon (1,086,900)

9.  Orlando, Florida (1,303,150)

10. Sacramento, California (1,315,030)

11. Denver, Colorado (1,401,760)

12. Miami, Florida (1,496,810)

13. Cleveland, Ohio (1,556,670)

14. Phoenix, Arizona (1,596,950)

15. Minneapolis, Minnesota (1,665,540)

The 15 largest non-NBA cities - Listed by television market:

 

1.  Tampa-St. Petersburg, Florida (1,671,040)

2.  St. Louis, Missouri (1,216,700)

3.  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (1,186,010)

4.  Baltimore, Maryland (1,087,730)

5.  San Diego, California (1,025,730)

6.  Hartford, Connecticut (1,017,530)

7.  Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina (966,720)

8.  Nashville, Tennessee (916,170)

9.  Kansas City, Missouri (894,580)

10. Cincinnati, Ohio (883,230)

11. Columbus, Ohio (867,490)

12. Grand Rapids, Michigan (732,600)

13. Port St. Lucie-West Palm Beach, Florida (729,010)

14. Birmingham, Alabama (717,300)

15. Virginia Beach-Norfolk, Virginia (707,750)

 

The 15 smallest NBA cities - Listed by metropolitan statistical area, out of 362 total areas (2004 MSA population):

 

1.  Salt Lake City, Utah (1,018,826)

2.  Memphis, Tennessee (1,250,293)

3.  New Orleans, Louisiana (1,319,589)

4.  Charlotte, North Carolina (1,474,734)

5.  Milwaukee, Wisconsin (1,515,738)

6.  Indianapolis, Indiana (1,621,613)

7.  San Antonio, Texas (1,854,050)

8.  Orlando, Florida (1,861,707)

9.  Sacramento, California (2,016,702)

10. Portland, Oregon (2,064,336)

11. Cleveland, Ohio (2,137,073)

12. Denver, Colorado (2,330,146)

13. Minneapolis, Minnesota (3,116,206)

14. Seattle, Washington (3,166,828)

15. Phoenix, Arizona (3,715,360)

 

The 15 largest non-NBA cities - Listed by MSA population (2004):

1. Riverside, California (3,793,081)(in Los Angeles-Anaheim TV market)

2. San Diego, California (2,931,714)

3. St. Louis, Missouri (2,764,054)

4. Baltimore, Maryland (2,639,613)

5. Tampa-St. Petersburg, Florida (2,587,967)

6. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (2,401,575)

7. Cincinnati, Ohio (2,058,221)

8. Kansas City, Missouri (1,925,319)

9. San Jose, California (1,741,431)(in San Francisco-Oakland TV market)

10. Columbus, Ohio (1,693,906)

11. Las Vegas, Nevada (1,650,671)

12. Virginia Beach-Norfolk, Virginia (1,644,250)

13. Providence, Rhode Island (1,628,808)

14. Austin, Texas (1,412,271)

15. Nashville, Tennessee (1,395,879)

 

Of all of the non-NBA cities listed above, most (if not all) have bigger national recognition than Dayton.  Now, I do believe that Dayton could easily support a Double A or even Triple A minor league baseball team - it is disappointing that all we can get is a Single A (low) team, but the fans support them as if they were AAA.  But I still have season tix - the games are fun to go to and Fifth Third Field is less than two blocks from my condo.

 

But yes, this thread is about NBA team in Dayton - and my answer is no.

OSU basketball is fairly popular, but it's the only game in a very large market, so there should be room for NBA in Bustown.

 

No.  Cavs.

 

The Reds have their Triple-A team in Louisville, so the proximity of both cities to Cincinnati ultimately hurt Dayton. Now why Dayton didn't at least get Double-A...who knows?

 

Chattanooga already had theirs, before Dayton.

that era has come and gone.

 

Not really.  Foxboro in Massachusetts for example or Arlington in Texas.

 

Third, Wright State is a joke, plain and simple. Their sports program is perhaps the least popular in Ohio. They'll never get any national attention.

 

One of the least popular, sure.  The least?  Shawnee State?  Wilmington?  Hell, Toledo? ;)

 

If you've ever been to a Detroit Red Wings game, you wouldn't be saying that. It all depends on the city. NHL is God in some cities, not an after-thought in others.

 

Correction: American cities they are a basic joke, besides Detroit, Boston, Denver, and Minneapolis.  Though Columbus supports the Blue Jackets hugely, it is perhaps due to them being the only professional team in town (not talking soccer).

 

but wait a sec, that didnt work out too well when clev did that with richfield between clev and akron, 'burban arenas suck.

 

What, Hudson and Peninsula couldn't support the Cavs? ;)

So, how 'bout that NBA team in Dayton...

You just had to, but I suspect you already knew better.

 

Assuming you knew Toledo had fans outside of Toledo ;).

The key component for an NBA team is household income.  Yes there are big/small markets both for NBA teams, but they are typically within markets with nice household incomes (hence Indy, not Cincy).  The NBA is an expensive go for a family and typically caters to higher incomes...whereas the other sports are more welcoming to all income levels.  I would suspect that Dayton would not do well in this category, just as Cincy has not done well.

 

But the trend has been to relocated pro franchises to markets with no pro teams.  But once again Dayton and Cincy are too close for this to apply to Dayton.  So I think if Dayton were a market all by itself without being so close to Cincy, Cbus, and Indy then I think they might be able to support a pro franchise...but

 

MLB = NO

NFL = NO

NHL = MAYBE

MLS = MAYBE

NBA = NO

^there is no way they would put an nhl team that close to the blue jackets.

Yeah...its definately not a promising scenario for any pro franchise to locate in Dayton...the deck is stacked against them in this situation.

I think the point wasn't if Dayton could soley sustain an NBA team (which would be a resounding no) but it could support it if it came (thanks to Cincinnati and Columbus, if marketed correctly).  No one in their right mind would put a team in Dayton but it would work, due to there being two larger metropolitan areas not too far away to help (much like Blue Jackets draw to Columbus; or the Cavs drawing from greater Northeast Ohio).

What would be most logical idea is a team in West Chester (no joke; much like Auburn Hills) which could center around the 3.4 million people in Cin-Day-Land.  IKEArena...

What would be most logical idea is a team in West Chester (no joke; much like Auburn Hills) which could center around the 3.4 million people in Cin-Day-Land.  IKEArena...

 

I'm going to quote montecarloss for this one:

 

"I don't know if I should punch you, or buy you a beer."

 

But seriously I could see an MLS team going in between CIN/DAY someday...I don't know if it would be WC or Monroe or Middletown.  It could even be in no-mans-land, but I think its a definate possibility though.

This conversation reminds me of one local guy who would call into whatever radio talk show he could and would go on and on about how the City of Dayton needed to build a basketball arena on Dave Hall Plaza so they could attract an NBA team.  He was so passionate about it and would get so worked up about it, he probably gave himself a heart attack about it.

Well, as long as Dave Hall Plaza goes away...

I think the point wasn't if Dayton could soley sustain an NBA team (which would be a resounding no) but it could support it if it came (thanks to Cincinnati and Columbus, if marketed correctly).  No one in their right mind would put a team in Dayton but it would work, due to there being two larger metropolitan areas not too far away to help (much like Blue Jackets draw to Columbus; or the Cavs drawing from greater Northeast Ohio).

 

the Blue jackets need to change their name to the ohio blue jackets and double (or triple or quadruple) their fan base in 30 seconds.  For example the minnesota vikings or NE patriots.

 

 

What would be most logical idea is a team in West Chester (no joke; much like Auburn Hills) which could center around the 3.4 million people in Cin-Day-Land.  IKEArena...

 

Wow, visions of Arco Arena out in the flatlands of suburban Sacramento.

 

Hockey...hmm....is it popular.  It was in Chicago back in my day, the Blackhawks.  They even had little league hockey, and I used to play "pick up hockey" on frozen ponds or park rinks when I was a kid.

 

So maybe its where your at if hockey is popular. 

This conversation reminds me of one local guy who would call into whatever radio talk show he could and would go on and on about how the City of Dayton needed to build a basketball arena on Dave Hall Plaza so they could attract an NBA team.  He was so passionate about it and would get so worked up about it, he probably gave himself a heart attack about it.

 

Former city commissioner Tony Capezzi (who should have been mayor, IMO), was "that guy" when it came to minor league baseball.  He had his little dog and pony show with his flip charts and site plans and such,  saying that we should have a baby Camden Yards for minor league ball here in Dayton, and would go to whover would book him or have him speak, anyone, to pitch the idea.  I thought he was nuts. Turns out he wasn't.

 

 

 

 

the Blue jackets need to change their name to the ohio blue jackets and double (or triple or quadruple) their fan base in 30 seconds.  For example the minnesota vikings or NE patriots.

 

 

 

Yeah, i'm sure that's what really is stopping them from taking it to the next level (i.e. out of the cellar)

Former city commissioner Tony Capezzi (who should have been mayor, IMO), was "that guy" when it came to minor league baseball. 

 

Although a little before my time in Dayton, I do have a t-shirt from one of his campaigns and it has the scales of justice on one side of his name and a baseball on the other.  Minor league baseball in Dayton was definitely his pet project.

 

 

the Blue jackets need to change their name to the ohio blue jackets and double (or triple or quadruple) their fan base in 30 seconds.  For example the minnesota vikings or NE patriots.

 

 

 

Yeah, i'm sure that's what really is stopping them from taking it to the next level (i.e. out of the cellar)

 

the whole league needs to contract to improve the product and take it back to a level of respectability.

 

Well, well, well.....

 

Turns out this thread has generated a decent amount of dicussion.  Thanks to everyone for your opinions.  All very interesting and informative. 

 

As far as Tony Capezzi goes, I'm sure as heck glad he fought as hard as he did, because Minor-League Baseball has been wildly popular here, as everyone knows.

 

I do think that as the Dayton/Cincy metro areas grow closer and closer, the idea of some type of sports stadium or arena for NHL, MLS, or NBA located along I-75 somewhere would be possible and could draw from both markets well.  But I cringe at the thought of a new arena or stadium being built outside of a cool downtown area.

 

And a note for the Wright State bashers:  They sold out Nutter the other night for the Butler game.  And even won!!

 

 

 

hell yeah! Cinday metro would be 13th CSA nationaly iff (if and only if) no other metros change to the 2010 census.  Lets say x4-7 grow faster and we are still in the top 20.  Whoever said suburban sprawl is bad never lied with statistics.

I think you can say "there's enough people within an hour's drive," but things are far more complex than that. Last time I checked, Dayton is fairly independent- Miami Valley is its own DMA and consumer market.

 

Look at Memphis for the "hour's drive actually works" example.  Memphis is not that much larger than Dayton's CSA.  Memphis markets itself to Tennessee, Mississippi, and Little Rock, AR.  Thus, if Dayton marketed itself to Columbus/Cincinnati, then it'd be fine.  But the chance of Dayton gaining an NBA team is the same as Toledo actually being taken seriously ;). *zing!*

 

That's a very important thing to look at. While Dayton is close to both Nati and Bustown, there isn't too much market overlap. It's not like Akron where the smaller city uses the larger one's DMA and consumer market. It CAN'T be marketed "correctly", because instead of advertising in Dayton's market (which is fairly cheap), they'd have to advertise in other, more expensive markets.

 

The NBA would help in that regard.  The power and wealth of sports is quite large, my friend.  So trust me, it could be marketed "correctly," if needed.  Again, it's highly unlikely.

 

That would spell financial suicide. Few teams can afford to market themselves in two or three seperate DMA's. By itself, the Miami Valley market is not big enough for any pro sports. No sane person would ever consider putting a pro sports team in Dayton with two much larger markets nearby. IT WOULD NEVER WORK.

 

Again, we ALL KNOW DAYTON ALONE CAN'T SUPPORT IT.  But if it was MARKETED CORRECTLY, then it could be supported.  But again, West Chester would be better than both.

 

That's the main reason I could never see a pro sports team surviving in Dayton. It's big enough for larger minor league teams than it currently has, but not pro. Even when Cincinnati and Dayton merge into one CMSA, Dayton will still be an independent market. To me, that's a good thing. Dayton doesn't have to rely on Cincinnati or Columbus...it has its own identity, but pro sports will never be a part of it. :|

 

Providence is it's own DMA/market and supports the New England Patriots, as it's generally regarded as Boston's team.  But get this...Foxboro is closer to Providence.  Most twits would never know that, due to excellent marketing (hence "New England" Patriots).  Granted Boston-Providence have 7.5 million but it is an example of having two independent markets supporting one team.

True, but even if this happened, they wouldn't call the team "Dayton Dunkers," they'd call them "Cincinnati Hightops" or some shit like that. The fact that the MSA's will merge actually makes the chance of a Dayton-marketed team less likely (not that it would happen anyway). Cincinnati is a more recognizable name than Dayton, and Dayton is about to be taken under Cincinnati's CMSA arm.

 

I would think that should a team EVER locate in the middle somewhere...it would not be called either Dayton___or Cincinnati___But rather it would be called the Miami Valley____.

^I would go Ohio_____, no one really cares about the miami valley

^Ohio______, wouldn't work because of The Cleveland Cavaliers.

good point. how about the cincinnati royals II then

good point. how about the cincinnati royals II then

 

^ now we're talkin. i can get with that. i wish we could get another nba team in ohio. speaking of that & dayton aside, does anyone think it will ever actually happen?

 

 

 

history:

http://www.royalshistory.com/home.htm

we won't get an NBA team unless global warming completely destroys a few costal cities.  Then we can grab a franschise.

What minor league teams does Dayton have again? :lol: It's barely a Single-A town, so forget ever having pro sports (at least Toledo, Louisville, etc. can claim Triple-A status).

 

A). Chattanooga already had the Double A and Louisville had the AAA, thus Dayton was shafted.  Community leaders were slow in getting a stadium in and we "took" a single-A.  But it is telling that a simple Single A affiliate of the Reds is just as attractive/fun as a Triple A team in the soy fields of Northwest Ohio.  Telling, indeed.

 

Actually, by the cracked-out logic of placing a pro team in a small market near a large market, Toledo has a BETTER CHANCE, since Detroit is larger than Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati combined.

 

No, Detroit is NOT larger than Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati combined, but simply about equal.  Putting a team in Toledo makes absolutely no sense, as Detroit looks at Michigan, not Ohio.  It would be like putting the Youngstown Hitmen in Sharon, Pennsylvania.

 

Hell, the Detroit-Toledo-Ann Arbor-Windsor area could easily add another pro sports team and get by alright since the combined market is over 7 million people.

 

No, it could not.  Boston and the Delaware Valley are larger and only have one team each.

 

forget CSA, that's meaningless. Commuting patterns aren't the same as market reach.

 

Memphis's DMA is over 300,000 people larger than Dayton's, and its consumer market is nearly half a million more people. Memphis is the SMALLEST NBA CITY. Unless the Miami Valley adds 500,000 people, it ain't happening...

 

Again, due to it being a hub city, with Arkansas, Mississippi, and western Tennessee.  REGARDLESS, as I said, the CSA isn't that much larger than Dayton (which was my initial point).  Yet then YOU brought up some Detroit-Toledo-Windsor-Toronto-New York City CSA thing that could land a team in Toledo.  Oy vey.

 

No one is dumb enough to try it...why the hell would someone put a team in Dayton when there is Columbus and Cincinnati? What, is Dayton going to market itself to two rival cities. This shit ain't Ohio State...

 

Do we read at OU?  Or is it the whole National Scholars thing that isn't coming there?  I said MULTIPLE TIMES that Dayton would illogically get a team before Cincinnati or Columbus.  I simply ADDRESSED that if Dayton DID get a team, it could be supported DUE TO IT BEING NEAR CINCINNATI AND COLUMBUS.

 

Christ.  I'm beginning to understand why TARTA pulled out of Perrysburg.

 

Kind of like Detroit-Toledo with the Tigers, eh? The thing is though, The Patriots would be fine without Providence, and the Tigers would be fine without Toledo (actually, considering how many stars the Mud Hens are pumping out, the Tigers would start sucking again). It's just added bonus.

 

Uh...who is talking...Detroit-...Toledo...?  Start ANOTHER thread with that.  Your Toledo insecurities are showing in full-force again.

 

btw, Providence is a piss-poor example. The Patriots aren't in Providence. A smaller market supporting a nearby larger market is a no-brainer, but vice-versa? Hell no.

 

The POINT was that the PATRIOTS are closer to PROVIDENCE than BOSTON.  You wouldn't KNOW THAT because they are MARKETED as the NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS.  That is my whole freakin' point of MARKETING POWER.  If a team came to Dayton (and let's read this again CDawg: IF), then it would work if MARKETED well, due to larger metropolitan areas being around it.

 

Foxborough (it's spelled "Foxborough" not "Foxboro") is solidly in BOSTON's market, and is only 20 miles away from the heart of Boston. That's the equivelant of Detroit putting the Pistons in Auburn Hills. It's still DETROIT market.

 

Ugh.  Foxboro is a local term. 

 

Hence: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zipcode=02035

 

Secondly, it's STILL closer to Providence (as get this...New England's metro areas are closer to each other than Midwestern ones...what a concept!) and is arguably in Providence's market too (though it's clear that Boston has a gigantic influence on Providence).

 

It'd be like Cincinnati putting a team in Hamilton. It's CINCINNATI's turf. So basically, your Foxborough example is an argument for putting a team in Hamilton, not Dayton. Dayton is 48 miles from Cincinnati (longer distance than Providence to Boston). Hamilton is 19 miles from Cincinnati (same distance as Foxborough to Boston). Hell, why not put a pro sports team in Monroe, Michigan? :lol:

 

A). Didn't I mention in this thread that WEST CHESTER should get the stadium?

B). My Providence example discusses secondary cities near primary cities in a region, REGARDLESS OF DISTANCE.  Christ.

The stadium should go on Broadway Commons,  Make tarbell happy.

The territorial rights to the Dayton market are owned by the Reds...The Reds will only allow a Cincinnati farm club in Dayton....Only a single A team work because of existing commitments with minor league teams...Also, Reds don't want to compete too much with Dayton team over fan so single A works out best for this....Dayton gets single A team...end of story

^ Oh, I'm sorry I forgot you knew everything, C-Dawg.  :-)

 

http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/06a0816n-06.pdf

What are you saying?  They were able to achieve all three of those things that you quoted.  I think it would have been more appropriate for you to quote this...

 

In order to waive the Reds territorial rights to permit a downtown minor league baseball team, at least the following conditions need to be met by August 15, 1997 and until then the Cincinnati Reds will work exclusively with the Downtown Dayton Partnership:

• An agreement to purchase an acceptable Midwest League Team (A level) and relocate it to Dayton by April 1999 . . . .
  
• Funding commitments in place by August 15, 1997, which would enable the Dayton community to proceed to build a minor league stadium which meets or exceeds all baseball requirements and which would be ready for play by April, 1999.
  
• A commitment to work together to market the proposed minor league team in conjunction with the Cincinnati Reds.
  
• The ownership group of the proposed team would require Reds and all appropriate baseball authorities approval. Our organization, and all of professional baseball supports diversity in ownership, employment and other matters. We require that equal opportunity be exercised in the selection process.

From what I gather, a roadblock for Dayton was some purpotedly "racist" comments from city officials.

 

How was it a roadblock?  The courts didn't buy it and neither did anyone else.

 

The district court was not persuaded otherwise by Plaintiffs' reference to a purportedly racist comment made by the Mayor of Dayton. According to Ehrenreich, the Mayor at one time asked Ehrenreich whether BAT would consider dealing with Dayton without the involvement of Newman. The Mayor explained by saying: "[W]ell, [Newman] called me a racist and I resent that." J.A. at 1028. The district court determined that this statement constituted neither direct nor indirect evidence of racial animus. Rather, the court wrote: "t gives rise to a finding that Mayor Turner did not like Newman." Id. at 610. The district court thus rejected Plaintiffs' argument that the Mayor's resentment of Newman (for calling the Mayor a racist) was sufficient to give rise to an inference that the Mayor himself was emoting racist sentiments. As the district court correctly suggested, it is not unlawful to resent someone for the disparaging remarks he or she makes.

 

 

Basically, it sounds like Dayton got screwed by the courts. :oops: That is some serious bullshit, and I suspect there was bias in the courtroom towards the Reds.

 

I'm not really sure what you're reading.  The City of Dayton and the Reds were both defendants in the case.  And they won.

 

 

But enough of this crap...it's getting totally off topic...

 

The Reds said if Dayton wanted a minor league team, it would have to be a Single-A team.  Guess what, that's what Dayton got.  It's really as simple as that.

Was ANYONE proposing a Triple-A team in Dayton during the 1990's?

 

Not that I'm aware of, because it just would have been a waste of time...just like what I'm doing right now.

Coldayman, you are the one who insulted Toledo first...i.e. DAYTON insecurity.

 

But the difference is, I didn't insult Toledo.  It was merely truth.

 

The Mud Hens are one of the most popular minor league teams in America and they are THE most recognized franchise name. It's been printed by SI and Newsweek many times before.

 

THE most recognized franchise name?  Okay, pass THAT pipe...

 

And how would you know this? Attendance at the Mud Hens is generally higher than the Dragons (though the Dragons put up Triple-A level attendance figures). In terms of name recognition and fame, not even comparable...

 

Attendance is higher because Toledo's knockoff of Dayton's Fifth Third Field has more SEATS.  I'd HOPE the attendence is higher.  What ELSE is Toledo going to do...go to the beautiful Sports Arena and watch a (whatever Toledo's minor hockey league team is) game?!?

 

Triple-A runs circles around Single-A. You have to realize that Triple-A players are just a notch below MLB. The quality of a Triple-A game compared to Single-A game is well...there's simply no comparison...

 

I can't believe there is an argument about TRIPLE A vs SINGLE A, when they are both MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL!  Gee, Norfolk is more superior than Spokane, because it has Triple-A! 

 

They are BOTH MINOR LEAGUE!  Who gives a rats ass if they are closer to MLB.  The fact that they are minor league already say what it's gotta say.  Both the Dragons and I'm sure the Mud Hens are a blast to watch, but neither are pro teams, nor will they ever be. 

 

what, watching some half-assed Single-A clowns try to hit a ball with a bat is as "attractive/fun" as watching the next MLB all-stars?

 

Next...MLB...all-stars...?  Of the...Marlins...?  Christ.  I can't even come up with this material.

 

Craig Monroe and Curtis Granderson > all of the Dayton Dragons since the team's inception.

 

I don't even have a clue who those gentlemen are because (the kicker) they play for a minor league team in Toledo that I don't know a thing about.  Perhaps there is a reason why I don't know anything about the Mud Hens (clue: they really aren't THE minor league team of the country).

 

And I'm simply saying IT CAN'T WORK.

 

And yet you don't have proof (neither do I).  Thus, we are both arguing over nothing.

 

Apparently it's you who can't read. Since when is MARKET the same as CSA/MSA. News flash: they're not always equal. This is a SPORTS thread, not a commuter thread. Market reach is all they're looking at. Dayton can't rely on its own market to support a team, hence why it'd fail. 1.4 million people is not the same as 1.9 million people, which is the bottom limit of NBA franchises. It doesn't matter if it's an hour or so away from other markets...

 

Do you HONESTLY think that 500,000 make THAT much of a difference in mid-sized metropolitan areas, realistically?  I mean, come on.  The point is that MARKET you talk about can be CROSSED OVER into other MARKETS.  Pittsburgh MARKETS itself to WHEELING which (get this) is a different, smaller MARKET. 

 

The regional size may be similar (combined market of 7 million compared to combined market of 8 million), but size isn't everything. If you knew much about Detroit-Toledo-Ann Arbor-Windsor culture, you'd know that hockey is incredibly popular. Hell, there could probably be two or three pro hockey teams in the region, and they'd all survive.

 

NHL is not MLB nor NBA.

 

I guess that's why there's all those Detroit billboards in Toledo, huh? Detroit looks at Southeast Michigan, Northwest Ohio, AND Ontario.

 

Detroit...looking at NW Ohio?  The only thing Detroit looks at is putting Metro Airport billboards and Casino Windsor signs in the area to entice naive NW Ohioans to go to Rock City.  Hell, there are billboards for Indianapolis Zoo and airport in the Dayton area yet Indianapolis doesn't really care about Dayton (and vice-versa).  Again, an example of cross-marketing.

 

Since when are you an upper-class white suburbanite from Wood County? :wink:

 

Better than being a poor, black suburbanite rioting in Lucas County ;)

 

Then don't attempt to insult Toledo in a Dayton thread. Dayton didn't HAVE to get a Reds affiliate. They could have gotten AA or AAA from somewhere else. It's happened before...

 

Logically, when you have the REDS down the street, there'd be a big chance that Dayton would like to be affiliated with them somehow, right?  I mean, is it really THAT hard to understand the influence of the Reds?  So gee, Single A Reds...or a sorry-ass AAA team of the Tigers...oh wait...

 

Let's compare International League cities with Single-A cities:

 

International League

COLUMBUS

Toledo

INDIANAOPLIS

Buffalo

LOUISVILLE

Richmond

CHARLOTTE

etc.

 

Single-A

Dayton, OH

Asheville, NC

Myrtle Beach, SC

Geneva, IL

Lowell, MA

Frederick, MD

etc.

 

It's not your endlessly-remarked "insecurity", but REALITY.

 

Strange.  You forgot to mention that Pawtucket, Scranton, and Durham are ALSO Triple-A cities.  I mean, gee, Dayton is also in the same Single-A league as Tampa, The Bay Area, Sarasota, Grand Rapids, Brooklyn, and Portland, Oregon/Vancouver, WA.  *tears*

 

If AAA-level sports can't work, how could NBA work? Based on market size alone, Dayton could be Triple-A, but that just isn't the case :|

 

Again, that was the CITY'S FAULT FOR SLEEPING ON BRINGING IN A TEAM.  It has NOTHING to do with your market theory in THAT case.

 

Hell, the ECHL (AA) hockey team up there in Dayton there is barely getting by...granted AA hockey is struggling in most markets, but some cities are dropping their AA hockey team for AAA (Toledo for example, because the terribly ghetto Sports Arena eventually started to hurt the Storm- the new arena will likely house a new AAA hockey team).

 

No one is going to say that the Bombers are great in attendance.  But again, it's minor league hockey.  Whoopdy do.  Hell, even Toledo isn't doing well, so it MUST suck, eh?

Correction: American cities they are a basic joke, besides Detroit, Boston, Denver, and Minneapolis.

 

No, warmer American cities dislike/don't care about hockey. To tell the truth, I never expected hockey to be as popular in Columbus as it turned out to be- but hey, props to Bustown for showing up! Compared to where I grew up, hockey just doesn't seem as important. Go south of I-80/90 or lower than 3000 feet, and hockey starts dwindling in popularity (hell, even Pittsburgh is having trouble keeping their team).

 

Up north though, it's damn popular at every level. Minor league and NHL does great business in a lot of the more northern cities, where natural ice is sometimes solid for months. Just look at Detroit! Hockey down south was never meant to be. The winters are just too mild....

 

Football will always be America's pastime, but don't overlook the importance of hockey in the cities with harsher winters.

 

Pittsburgh's problem with keeping the Penguins has nothing to do with their popularity... but I don't expect you to know the specifics of the situation and don't really feel like getting into it right now (they do have 95% percent capacity at the oldest and crappiest arena in the NHL this season and the 2nd highest local TV ratings in the US after Buffalo)

I'm not suprised the Toledo Mud Hens is "the most recognized name in minor sports"... because it is an incredibly stupid name... but what I do find suprising is that Sports Illustrated and Newsweek would have printed that little factoid MANY times.

 

 

I'm also suprised that Dayton can only support Single-A ball.  Even Altoona, PA has Double-A... and that's a metro of 130,000!