March 12, 200718 yr I am sure the Census Bureau has done their homework on defining "Economic Areas", but it seems like many do not logically make sense. For example, Dayton is not part of the Cincinnati EA, yet a county in West Virginia is part of Columbus (there are obviously some very large EA's). So the assumption, by adding the income of the people from WV is that they would support the Blue Jackets as they are applying this to sports teams. Are we to believe that as a percentage these people are more likely to go to a Blue Jackets game than people from Dayton are to go to a Reds or Bengals game? I'm sure that 2 hour drive on a Wednesday for the NHL is a common occurrence. I also think both the Reds and Bengals would be surprised to find that they sell no tickets to people from Dayton. I apologize for continuing the sidebar as this is way off topic.... You make a good point... and I agree with you. However, I still think EA's are the most logical way to look at the financial viability of a sports franchise. That WV county is tiny... 25k people... so it doesn't make much of an impact concerning population or TPI... it's so small that it probably doesn't have enough of an economy to be independent... and due to transportation infrastructure... it is more economically related to Columbus than it is to nearby Charleston, WV. Columbus, being a much more powerful market, can project its economic might farther than Charleston, WV. But I agree that it is probably a rarity for somebody from Mason Co, WV to attend a Blue Jackets game... but it's such a tiny component of the Columbus EA... that it doesn't matter much. Dayton is a highly developed economic node that is relatively independent of Cincy. But I agree that people in the Dayton EA are overwhelmingly fans of Cincinnati teams. But most major EAs have adjacent secondary EAs they can draw from. Pittsburgh teams can draw additional revenue from the Morgantown WV EA, State College PA EA, Erie PA EA and Charleston WV EA and even portions of the Cleveland EA (which includes Youngstown) and DC EA (western MD). So comparing EA TPI is not perfect... but I think it's generally assumed that most EAs have secondary EAs in their "catchment area". But secondary EAs offer diminishing returns. That $41 billion TPI in Dayton is really not reflective of the support Dayton is able to provide to Cincy teams... this is due to geographic distance... the farther away you go... the less revenue a franchise can generate from that territory. But I will say that I think the proximity of Dayton's EA is more significant than most EAs... including my Pittsburgh example with Morgantown, Youngstown, etc.... because Dayton is relatively close and heavily populated... at about 60% the TPI of Cincy. So I do think Cincy's market is a bit "larger" than its TPI would indicate... how much bigger? That's hard to quantify.
March 12, 200718 yr But I will say that I think the proximity of Dayton's EA is more significant than most EAs... including my Pittsburgh example with Morgantown, Youngstown, etc.... because Dayton is relatively close and heavily populated... at about 60% the TPI of Cincy. So I do think Cincy's market is a bit "larger" than its TPI would indicate... how much bigger? That's hard to quantify. Good to see that we're on common ground now. This is what I was wondering about, and its good to see that you recognize, as well, that the Dayton EA has an impact on the Cincy EA (more so than other secondary markets on their neighborhood). I agree it would be hard to quantify, but I would still say that this methodology penalizes SW Ohio in its structure.
March 12, 200718 yr And while I think an EA's TPI is the No. 1 factor in determining the economic viability of a franchise, I think there are significant external factors to consider... as I stated earlier. Green Bay?
March 12, 200718 yr It's well known that the Packers are a special case due to many factors and that they draw primarily from the much larger Milwaukee market. They used to even split home games between Green Bay and Milwaukee. In addition, an NFL franchise does not demand that much TPI due to infrequency of events and a much broader base of appeal than the other sports. Green Bay is part of the Appleton-Oshkosh-Neenah EA, which has a TPI of $25B, which suprisingly isn't that much of a shortfall for the required TPI of an NFL franchise.
March 12, 200718 yr But I will say that I think the proximity of Dayton's EA is more significant than most EAs... including my Pittsburgh example with Morgantown, Youngstown, etc.... because Dayton is relatively close and heavily populated... at about 60% the TPI of Cincy. So I do think Cincy's market is a bit "larger" than its TPI would indicate... how much bigger? That's hard to quantify. Good to see that we're on common ground now. This is what I was wondering about, and its good to see that you recognize, as well, that the Dayton EA has an impact on the Cincy EA (more so than other secondary markets on their neighborhood). I agree it would be hard to quantify, but I would still say that this methodology penalizes SW Ohio in its structure. A similar example would be Buffalo... which has a TPI of $44B... but Rochester's EA is right next door... which is well known to be solid Buffalo sports territory and has a TPI even larger than Buffalo at $45B... the proximity (about 1 hour drive) of Rochester certainly has a significant impact on the economic viability of Buffalo sports... but the returns of the Rochester TPI are diminished due to geography distance... despite it being a relatively short distance. The adjacent Ontario territories also have an impact... but there are other factors that would diminish the impact... such as the obvious fact that it's a seperate country. If some economic genius could come up with a forumla that would account for these factors... that would be wonderful. But for now... I guess this is the best we have... you just can't lump Dayton's TPI in with Cincy and say... we have $120 billion or whatever of TPI... Dayton's impact would be less than its available TPI for a Cincy franchise.
March 12, 200718 yr Well then how in the heck can Milwaukee support the NFL, NBA, and MLB?? Also I guess St Louis is a special circumstance as well. Seeing as how they support (very well) MLB, NHL, NFL. Stl is a similar metro to Cincy, but their teams do VERY well. I would assume that their EA is similar to Cincy and the other midwestern cities mentioned...unless it is an unequal comparison again. Like I said before these numbers do not dictate this circumstance very well...there are probably a couple of cities that one could question their EA ability, but the actual numbers in attendance and profit refute it.
March 12, 200718 yr Milwaukee can't... the Biz Journal ranked Milwaukee as one of the Most Extended Sports Markets and it wasn't even counting the Packers. The Brewers and Bucks have been very weak economically for a long time. St. Louis is somewhat of a special case. It's EA has a TPI about $35B more than Cincy... the Cardinals have somehow managed to become a top-tier franchise despite a small market... but the Blues are always in terrible shape... they even threatened a move to Saskatoon a couple years ago. They draw poorly and have poor finances. The Rams have been selling out... but St. Lou did lose an NFL franchise only 20 years ago... which supports the analysis. St. Louis is also one of the most overextended sports markets. Most of the overextended sports markets have some teams that are flouishing and some teams that are starving.
March 13, 200718 yr The NFL in general seems to be a sort of special case -- can survive on very little $$$, and I don't know this for certain anymore, but as recently as a couple years ago each NFL team basically broke even before selling a ticket, given the lucrative TV contracts that are shared equally. Do the TV networks and national advertisers basically subsidize the NFL in any given market?
March 13, 200718 yr I used the WV county to point out the distance to which that EA extends, but let me make a broader statement. Columbus' EA population is about 800,000 more than its metro and about 600,000 more than is CSA. Its CSA goes all the way to Chillicothe, and I would venture to say that any population beyond that is not likely to go to a Blue Jackets game. I think it is fine to define an EA, but I am still not convinced of any usefulness regarding support to professional sports teams. I want to make it clear that I am simply using Columbus as an example because there are many that would apply. To me, the way to determine how much a city could support is by doing the market research. What percentage of Bengal's and Red's tickets are sold to people from Cincinnati, Dayton, Lexington, or even Columbus and how does that percentage relate to the respective cities' population? Not every city supports their team at the same rate and not every team gets support for the team from the surrounding region. Or you look at actual attendance. Using the EA is tidy, but it does not really consider the market behavior. On the down side, my approach would be difficult to present in a 3 sentence blurb and wouldn't work well with the scroll functionality on the bizjournals site. And I think there is a possibility that Dayton could support a team if it were located so that there was some access from the Cincinnati metro. I remember there was a guy about 15 years ago that wanted to build an arena in Butler county for the NHL or NBA, but I am not sure he ever really had the resources to pull it off. You make a good point... and I agree with you. However, I still think EA's are the most logical way to look at the financial viability of a sports franchise. That WV county is tiny... 25k people... so it doesn't make much of an impact concerning population or TPI... it's so small that it probably doesn't have enough of an economy to be independent... and due to transportation infrastructure... it is more economically related to Columbus than it is to nearby Charleston, WV. Columbus, being a much more powerful market, can project its economic might farther than Charleston, WV. But I agree that it is probably a rarity for somebody from Mason Co, WV to attend a Blue Jackets game... but it's such a tiny component of the Columbus EA... that it doesn't matter much. Dayton is a highly developed economic node that is relatively independent of Cincy. But I agree that people in the Dayton EA are overwhelmingly fans of Cincinnati teams. But most major EAs have adjacent secondary EAs they can draw from. Pittsburgh teams can draw additional revenue from the Morgantown WV EA, State College PA EA, Erie PA EA and Charleston WV EA and even portions of the Cleveland EA (which includes Youngstown) and DC EA (western MD). So comparing EA TPI is not perfect... but I think it's generally assumed that most EAs have secondary EAs in their "catchment area". But secondary EAs offer diminishing returns. That $41 billion TPI in Dayton is really not reflective of the support Dayton is able to provide to Cincy teams... this is due to geographic distance... the farther away you go... the less revenue a franchise can generate from that territory. But I will say that I think the proximity of Dayton's EA is more significant than most EAs... including my Pittsburgh example with Morgantown, Youngstown, etc.... because Dayton is relatively close and heavily populated... at about 60% the TPI of Cincy. So I do think Cincy's market is a bit "larger" than its TPI would indicate... how much bigger? That's hard to quantify.
April 23, 200718 yr Not sure if this is the best thread for this or not, but hey, I started this topic, so I might as well bump it up again.... The Dayton Dragons (Class A Reds Affiliate) were ranked by some Sports Illustrated story as one of the Top 10 "Hottest Tickets" in sports. By the way, that's not minor-league sports, not baseball, not Ohio...... That's ALL OF SPORTS..... PERIOD. I thought that way pretty interesting, and speaks quite well for Dayton sports fans. I know the popularity of the Dragons has never been questioned, but I still thought some might appreciate the story. So here it is: __________________________________________________________________________ Dragons Named as One of Sports Hottest Tickets 04/21/2007 3:41 PM DAYTON, OH – At first glance Minor League Baseball’s Dayton Dragons may not have much in common with the National Football League’s Washington Redskins and Denver Broncos, or the Sacramento Kings and the Dallas Mavericks of the National Basketball Association. There are no real parallels with the National Hockey League’s Detroit Red Wings or Colorado Avalanche, or the following associated with Duke Blue Devils basketball. So what do the Dragons have in common with these “Big Boys” of major professional and college sports? Sports Illustrated CNN.com has linked Dayton with these seven teams and two others as one of the “Ten Hottest Tickets” in all of sports. The listing of the Dayton Dragons has them as the only minor league team in any sport to be mentioned. The Dragons have sold out every game at Fifth Third Field in the franchise’s existence since the stadium opened on April 27, 2000. Dayton ran the longest sellout current streak in professional baseball at any level to 500 on April 17, 2007 and with three overflow sellout crowds since, the streak now sits at 503. “It is a great honor to be recognized by Sports Illustrated and to have our name mentioned with such great franchises in the sporting world,” said Dragons President Robert Murphy. “This is a testament to the great fans of the Dayton Region and truly shows their loyalty and passion for sports.” The Dragons have placed among the top 10 teams in minor league attendance (160 teams) in each of its first seven seasons in existence, regardless of classification. Dayton has averaged over 580,000 fans per season at Fifth Third Field for a seven-year average of 8,375 per game, filling the park to 116% capacity. The Dragons have been the top Class “A” franchise for all of the seven seasons, and have set and re-broke the “A” attendance mark three times. The list, online at: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0704/gallery.hottest.tickets/content.10.html has the Dragons grouped with some of the biggest and best known names in the sporting world, all from the four major professional sports or Division I college athletics. Sports Illustrated CNN.com Ten Hottest Tickets in Sports 1. Detroit Red Wings - NHL 2. Boston Red Sox – MLB 3. Duke Blue Devils – NCAA Basketball 4. Nebraska Cornhuskers – NCAA Football 5. Washington Redskins – NFL 6. Denver Broncos – NFL 7. Sacramento Kings – NBA 8. Dallas Mavericks – NBA 9. Colorado Avalanche – NHL 10. Dayton Dragons – Minor League Baseball (Class “A” affiliate, Midwest League) ___________________________________________________________________________
April 23, 200718 yr wow i never knew they had 503 sellouts outs a ROW. I guess it's time for a bigger staduim. Oh and that arena in Butler county would have been called the hippodrome..lol
April 24, 200718 yr I don't know if the NBA would grant a franchise for an arena in a suburban locale anymore. Not saying an arena in Butler County wouldn't work...it's just the trend over the last 15 years or so is to move arenas back to city centers (i.e. Washington, Cleveland).
April 25, 200718 yr Not sure if this is the best thread for this or not, but hey, I started this topic, so I might as well bump it up again.... The Dayton Dragons (Class A Reds Affiliate) were ranked by some Sports Illustrated story as one of the Top 10 "Hottest Tickets" in sports. By the way, that's not minor-league sports, not baseball, not Ohio...... That's ALL OF SPORTS..... PERIOD. Way to go Dayton!
May 21, 200718 yr Dayton will never get a NBA franchise.. come on.. is this really a question? You have markets like Seattle who can't support a team, let alone Dayton?! They do a great job with the Dragons, but Dayton is to Cincinnati, as Akron is to Cleveland..
May 21, 200718 yr ^In defense of Seattle...from my understanding its not so much that they can't support a team, but rather their arena needs updating and the people of Seattle see their money better spent elsewhere.
May 21, 200718 yr Might have been more their dislike of the NBA, Seattle had no problem funding NFL & MLB stadiums in the past 10 years.
May 21, 200718 yr ^Maybe, but Cincy also funded new NFL and MLB stadiums in the past 10 years...I certainly wouldn't expect voters to agree to funding a third professional sports venue. Obviously Cincinnati isn't Seattle, but there is more to it than simple negative ties to the Seattle fan base.
May 22, 200718 yr You mean no NBA franchise would want to move to Cincy and play in US Bank Arena? haha
May 22, 200718 yr If Seattle were to move...Okla. City would make the most sense at this point. So this whole section of the thread of an NBA team moving to Dayton, while interesting, is kinda a moot point.
May 22, 200718 yr You mean no NBA franchise would want to move to Cincy and play in US Bank Arena? haha What I'm saying is that while Seattle fans may have supported two professional sports venues; the third might be where they draw the line. I was just using Cincy as an example where I would think that the population would be totally opposed to any new sports venues publicly funded.
May 22, 200718 yr If Seattle were to move...Okla. City would make the most sense at this point. So this whole section of the thread of an NBA team moving to Dayton, while interesting, is kinda a moot point. Vegas
May 22, 200718 yr If Seattle were to move...Okla. City would make the most sense at this point. So this whole section of the thread of an NBA team moving to Dayton, while interesting, is kinda a moot point. Vegas I would agree with that too.
May 23, 200718 yr Yeah, but the comish said they'd have to build a new arena cause the tinyness of their current one raised issues during the All-Star game.
May 23, 200718 yr in vegas I'm sure they will be able to build a new arena. any developer out there would be able to do the job. Wouldn't any city need a new arena? Does Oklahoma city have a NBA caliber arena already in place and if so, why?
May 23, 200718 yr in vegas I'm sure they will be able to build a new arena. any developer out there would be able to do the job. Wouldn't any city need a new arena? Does Oklahoma city have a NBA caliber arena already in place and if so, why? Short answer yes it does. Probably because of its newness (1999) and was probably built with intentions on one day getting an NBA franchise. Oklahoma City's Ford Arena has a seating capacity of 19,675 (Cle:20,600, Cin:12,800) and also has the oh so important Box seats, 3300 of them. I know the NBA wants its locker rooms to have enough room for all the modern locker room convieniences plus room for the media. I don't know where OKC stacks up in that regard. According to wikipedia the Hornets spent $200,000 in upgrades for the arena as well.
May 23, 200718 yr in vegas I'm sure they will be able to build a new arena. any developer out there would be able to do the job. Wouldn't any city need a new arena? Does Oklahoma city have a NBA caliber arena already in place and if so, why? Short answer yes it does. Probably because of its newness (1999) and was probably built with intentions on one day getting an NBA franchise. Oklahoma City's Ford Arena has a seating capacity of 19,675 (Cle:20,600, Cin:12,800) and also has the oh so important Box seats, 3300 of them. I know the NBA wants its locker rooms to have enough room for all the modern locker room convieniences plus room for the media. I don't know where OKC stacks up in that regard. According to wikipedia the Hornets spent $200,000 in upgrades for the arena as well. I've been to Ford Arena, it's as nice/big/modern as Quicken Loans or the Verizon Center. M to O brings up a good point about the players amenities, though.
May 23, 200718 yr US Bank Arena can seat around 17,000 for basketball, it's 12,800 is for hockey & arena football. It also has suites, though nothing to the extent which an NBA team would require to move to a city.
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