Couldn't the reason Dayton was only able to get a Single A team was because that was what was available at the time?

 

Way to go DowntownDYT - look what you started here  :wink:

 

C-Dawg - I'd have to agree with ColDayMan on the fact that the Mud Hens are NOT well known outside of Toledo.  When I lived in Chicago and Tampa, I had barely even heard of Toledo let alone the Mud Hens.  I will agree that AAA ball is leaps and bounds above A ball in terms of level.  But at ANY level of minor league baseball, the fans are typically there more simply for the experience of going out to the ballpark than that they are really following the team.  I've been to a Mud Hens game (my wife's parents and other family live in Toledo), and it is a good time, but it really was no different than going to a Dragons game except that the stadium is a little bit bigger and the play on the field is tighter.  And one could argue that watching a single A game is actually more exciting because there are is more action (errors, hits, etc.) on the field whereas Triple A games tend to be pitcher's duals.

 

Although this would probably need a new thread, the more important question in terms of Urban Ohio is - how successful have Ohio's minor and major league teams been at revitalizing the areas surrounding their stadiums - especially those in downtowns.  I know I've been told that Toledo's downtown is still struggling, as is Dayton's downtown.  But if Dayton's "Ballpark Village" (which will not be the official name) does indeed happen (and my inside sources tell me that it is better than 85% chance), Dayton will have jumped far ahead of Toledo in terms of development around a ballpark.

I'm not suprised the Toledo Mud Hens is "the most recognized name in minor sports"... because it is an incredibly stupid name... but what I do find suprising is that Sports Illustrated and Newsweek would have printed that little factoid MANY times.

 

They are recognized because Jamie Farr used to name-check them on the old MASH sitcom (along with Tony Packo's hot dogs).

 

I recall Maureen Pero giving a talk once on marketing downtown Dayton, and I recall she said (or something like this) that they where looking for a owner/promoter like Mandalay because they wanted to market the team as entertainment and going to the ballpark as a "event" and family thing as much as a "sports" thing, and this was the product Mandalay was interested in too. 

 

Though Pero didn't say this the idea was to get people into the city and break that mental block suburbanites have of going into the city. If they came down for the games and had a positive experiences they might be induced to return to the city for other things,, too.

 

From what I recall (I wans't following this too close) there wasn't too much discussion what level of minor league ball, they just wanted to bring the game to town.

 

For another good minor league park here in Ohio, visit the one in Akron.  I think they did a great job fitting this one into the city.  I like the one they are or where proposing for Fort Wayne, too.

 

I am wondering where this interest in minor league baseball started?  Perhaps with the movie Bull Durham (anyone remember that one, starring Kevin Costner, Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon?).  Set in Durham, North Carolina.  Historically I think minor league baseball had an association with the South, as few southern citys had major league teams of any sport. Like back when stock car racing was a county fairground/dirt track sport.

 

I used to post on another board that had this old left-wing granny posting on it (lived in North Beach, went to protess and rallys all the time), who had a suprsing (to me) jones for baseball. We got to sending each other PMs on things, and she told me her interest in baseball developed because of her father, who was minor league player (didn't make the majors)..it seems they would travel around alot as he played on different teams around the country before he left the game.  It wasn't a lot of money back then (must've been the 1920s or 30s, maybe even the 40's).  It was interesting to talk with someone who had this connection to the sport.

 

Strange.  You forgot to mention that Pawtucket, Scranton, and Durham are ALSO Triple-A cities.  I mean, gee, Dayton is also in the same Single-A league as Tampa, The Bay Area, Sarasota, Grand Rapids, Brooklyn, and Portland, Oregon/Vancouver, WA.  *tears*

 

Lansing had a single-A team, too.  The Lansing Lugnuts.  Love that name. It's so....industrial

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But if Dayton's "Ballpark Village" (which will not be the official name) does indeed happen (and my inside sources tell me that it is better than 85% chance), Dayton will have jumped far ahead of Toledo in terms of development around a ballpark.

 

I'm skeptical as I've seen a lot fall through here.  Yet they have a regional developer with a good track record of execution on board as part of the team, Bear Creek Capital.  Bear Creek are the ones involved with trying to develop that big shopping center at Wilimington and Whipp, near Rollandia.

 

I used to kind of like the Reds (America's first pro baseball team), but after reading that, I can't help but hate them- what paranoid, greedy bastards. Did they honestly think a different affiliate in Dayton would hurt Cincinnati attendance?

 

Marge Schott, July 1994:

 

"There's no way I see baseball coming to Dayton, no way at all," the Cincinnati Reds owner said Thursday afternoon at a press gathering to announce the boxing show she is co-promoting Saturday night at the University of Cincinnati's Shoemaker Center.

 

"Major League Baseball (MLB) will not allow a team in Dayton. The league was against a plan like that once before and I don't see it being any different this time.

 

"If it's up to me, I can't support a move like that. It would be crazy. From a business standpoint, it would be devastating. This year, I've lost $9 million . . . no, make that $11 million in baseball.

 

"So why would I do something that would take more support from our club? The Dayton people are part of our fan base. They're good fans. I don't want to lose them. I won't lose them.

 

"So, no, I don't see baseball happening in Dayton."

 

 

In fact, the territorial rights were waived by the Reds while Marge Schott was serving her suspension.  While it sounds like John Allen (Reds COO) had supported minor league baseball in Dayton, IMO he also saw it as a good PR opportunity for the Red, by requiring that any team in Dayton have some minority ownership. While certainly a noble thing to require, I think it had more to do with improving image, given the poor race-related press the organization had been receiving. 

 

Although you keep saying that Dayton loses by not having SSI as the owner of baseball in Dayton, Sports Spectrum and Rock Newman were proposing bringing a single-A team to Trotwood.  I'd take a single-A team downtown any day over a single-A team in a stadium in the middle of a parking lot out in Trotwood. 

 

But at any rate, I think everyone can agree that minor league baseball in Dayton has been hugely successful and the residents of Dayton and the Miami Valley have more than done their part by selling out every game the Dragons have played in Dayton (496 consecutive sellouts).

C-Dawg, C-Dawg, C-Dawg...

 

The whole Reds-Dragons conversation is not only waaay off topic, but also way off base on your part.  First off, baseball is a historic sport and America's pastime.  The Reds being the oldest have long ties to this part of the country.  Reds country covers much area and has a LARGE following across the nation from displaced Cincinnatians, as well as, baseball traditionalists.  The franchise likes keeping their stronghold in this part of the country (hence the Reds caravan before each season).  They have Louisville, Chattanooga, and Dayton (all within the core of Reds country).  It all makes sense for Reds, and those communities have had historic ties to the Reds organization, and probably make better sense for having a Reds affiliate there.

 

As for you AAA to A comparisons...First off, AAA is not the creme de le creme you make it out to be.  Most of the actual major league talent is in AA before it actually comes up to the majors.  Sure they make stops in AAA and A both, but most would agree that the 'major league talent' actually comes out of AA not AAA.

 

Now you have also managed to cite the Reds franchise as a racist organizations and are "assholes".  Well its true that Marge Schott may have been a very rude/crude woman, but 1 single owner of a franchise that has a history as long as the Reds do is a bit of a stretch to label the entire organization.  Not to even mention Marge was forced out of her ownership of the team, by locals and MLB.

 

 

In a nutshell you go way overboard with your generalizations and claims.  I grow very tired of reading your spam (I mean posts).  Just come to the realization that Toledo is what it is...a metro around 2 million, with Detroit being the closest thing around.  Dayton on the other hand is slightly smaller with another metro of well over 2 million a stones throw away, and Cbus not much farther than that.  If you don't think it could work for Dayton...tell that to Ft. Worth, Green Bay, or Anaheim.

UncleRando:  What is the purpose of AAA if that's not where the major league talent is?  And since when did Toledo have a metro of 2 million!?

^yeay Dayton is Ohio's fourth largest metro at a little over 1 mill, then Akron at 7XX,XXX(When CMAs are not used), and then Toledo at around 650,000

Toledo's MSA is about the same size as Youngstown's MSA.

^Very true.

 

Oh, and for this little tidbit:

 

What is the purpose of AAA if that's not where the major league talent is?

 

Well, duh, to be TOTALLY COOL!!!

UncleRando:  What is the purpose of AAA if that's not where the major league talent is?  And since when did Toledo have a metro of 2 million!?

 

Well I don't know the workings of baseball franchises, but typically before someone is promoted to the big leagues they are in AA not AAA.  AAA does see those same players, but like I said it is not the creme de le creme...the other minor league outlets certainly get their share.

 

As for the Toledo 2 million....I am simply citing what was stated by C-Dawg (he claims 1.9 million), take it up with him.

AAA typically is a place where injured players go for rehabilitation before return to the majors.  the really good players in the farm systems often skip AAA and go straight to the majors.

That last comment was uncalled for!

 

btw, there IS history behind the name Pittsburgh Pirates (previously called the Pittsburgh Innocents/Infants).  The difference is that Pirates sounds bad-ass while Mud Hens elicits a chuckle and a WTF?

 

here's some wiki-knowledge:

 

"When the renegade Players League dissolved after the 1890 season, most of the league's player contracts were assigned to National League and American Association clubs, mostly to their previous clubs provided they had been "reserved" by their former teams' owners. Highly-regarded second baseman Lou Bierbauer, who had previously played with the Philadelphia Athletics of the Association, was awarded to the Pittsburgh team on the grounds that the A's had not reserved him. This led to loud complaints by the Athletics that the Pittsburgh club were "pirates". This incident (which is discussed at some length in The Beer and Whisky League, by David Nemec, 1994) quickly accelerated into a schism between the leagues that contributed to the demise of the A.A. The colorful epithet stuck with the Pittsburghers, and eventually became the club's official nickname. It was first acknowledged on the team's jerseys in 1912, but even by the 1903 World Series, "Pirates" was in common usage. (Years later, the "Mr. Yuk" poison warning was developed due to the traditional skull-and-crossbones being associated with the Pirates baseball team.)"

 

 

 

Dayton is still the World Headquarters of NCR, which is a Fortune 500 company

I know this site has a positive bias, as in "let's paint Ohio cities as sunshine and rainbows," but don't be surprised when people are critical of an argument about Dayton being a "big-time sports city." There's always a place for criticism. Generally on Urban "Ohio", it seems Southwest Ohio is protected, but Toledo and Cleveland are fair game! Play Ball!

 

Once again, thanks for your insight C-Dawg, but it seems as though you haven't read my posts in this topic.  I have stated from the beginning that Dayton can not support a team on its own.  The only was would be to team up with Cincy and locate a team in the middle of the metroplex, but as I stated this is doubtful and I don't see it ever happening.

 

I have also stated this before about my stances on Ohio's cities.  Sure I have a bias for my hometown (most people do...even you).  But I also like to hear good things happening elsewhere in the state, and I don't crap on those things just because they're not happening in Cincy or SW Ohio.  I actually have stated that I feel that Cleveland has the most 'urban' feel/look of any Ohio city; I also admire the progressive policies and actions that have been taken in Cbus and Cleveland both.  Now unlike you...I don't lurk around other forums and topics just waiting to pounce on a particular area (in your case..your seemingly unwarranted dislike of SW Ohio).  You have consistently proven yourself to be completely biased towards Toledo...and have complete hatred of SW Ohio.  So for you to accuse this forum and certain people specifically is a bit RIDICULOUS...and even hypocritical!

 

Every sports name is "incredibly stupid,"

 

the cincinnati reds, they wear red.  the cleveland browns, they wear brown.  The Washington nationals, they play in the national league.  The San Fransico Giants are all 11 feet tall.

Are there actually Cavaliers in Cleveland, Tigers in Detroit, Bengals in Cincinnati, Bulls in Chicago, or Pirates in Pittsburgh???

 

Yes, there are Bengals in Cincinnati actually.  The Cincinnati Zoo has been well known over the years for its famous Bengal Tigers...hence the naming of the NFL team Cincinnati Bengals.  Not to mention the current NFL Bengals were also named in respect of the original pro football team in Cincinnati...the CINCINNATI BENGALS!

 

Here is some history from the Bengals official website:

In 1937, a team known as the Cincinnati Bengals was formed as a member of the American Football League. The 1937 Bengals finished with a 2-4-2 record in their first year, but the AFL folded after the season. The Bengals continued as an independent team in 1938, and in 1939 joined a new AFL, finishing in second place with a 6-2 record. But again, the league folded after the season.

 

Once again in 1940, another new AFL emerged, and again the Bengals joined. But that AFL suffered the fate of the two AFLs before it, folding after the 1941 season as the United States entered World World II, and the Bengals folded along with it.

 

Pro football returned to Cincinnati 26 years later in 1967 when Paul Brown headed an ownership group that landed an expansion franchise in the modern-era American Football League. Brown, a Pro Football Hall of Famer who founded and coached the Cleveland Browns from 1946-62, picked the name Bengals for the new team "to give it a link with past professional football in Cincinnati."

http://www.bengals.com/team/History.asp

And for the rest of Coldayman's posts, no point in even spending time on that. He obviously doesn't follow baseball too closely or else he'd know who Craig Monroe and Curtis Granderson are (hint: they both are former Mud Hens who played in the 2006 World Series).

 

If we are going THAT route, then I must not spend any more time on CDawg's posts as they show Toledo insecurity (of being Ohio's sixth largest/important metro) in a thread dealing with Ohio's fourth largest/important metropolitan area.

 

 

Craig Monroe and Curtis Granderson > all of the Dayton Dragons since the team's inception.

 

 

 

 

I just want to point out that Adam Dunn was a one-time Dayton Dragon.  Granderson and Monroe are good players, and Dunn frustrates the crap out of me, but he's better than both of them. 

the bugger about single a league ball is the pitch count thing. they only let the pitchers go for i think like three innings or some pitch count. also all the player movement. its hard to get to know anyone very well, they come and go. at least with triple aaa ball they stick around longer. the leagues are different animals tho, i know.

Just for the record:

 

The UD home game Saturday night drew over 13,000 while the WSU home game at Nutter drew over 9,000.

 

The games were being played at the same time.  So that's over 22,000 people watching basketball in Dayton at once.....

 

Obviously the region couldn't turn out these numbers every night, but I think 22,000 is quite a crowd at a lot of pro sports events.....

Just for the record:

 

The UD home game Saturday night drew over 13,000 while the WSU home game at Nutter drew over 9,000.

 

The games were being played at the same time.  So that's over 22,000 people watching basketball in Dayton at once.....

 

Obviously the region couldn't turn out these numbers every night, but I think 22,000 is quite a crowd at a lot of pro sports events.....

 

Not quite the same.

 

22k tickets sold at NBA/MLB/HNL/NFL tiered pricing VS. 22k tickets sold at university pricing.  we're talking apples and oranges

Craig Monroe and Curtis Granderson > all of the Dayton Dragons since the team's inception

 

I understand that this is hyperbole, but come on - Craig Monroe?  Dude played 14 games with the Mud Hens.  Let's not pretend he's some Toledo product or something.  Maybe he's had some demotions since then and played a few more games in Toledo, but he came up with in the Rangers system, not the Tigers...

 

And the Dragons have only been around since 2000, and still have seen Austin Kearns, Adam Dunn, Todd Coffey, Edwin Encarnacion, Wily Mo Pena and Chris Denorfia come through.  Dunn and Kearns both put up Monroe and Granderson-type numbers...

 

Oh, and one last observation: "Bulls in Chicago" - er...yeah, I believe there are some historical connections in Chicago to raising cattle...that one ain't really a stretch!

 

The NCAA opening round is at UD on March 13. 

 

The two Ohio venues for the NCAA tourny this year are Dayton and Columbus.

 

 

i like how the dragons stadium field is sunk below the ground and the nut house is too.

 

dayton should grab one of those arena football teams next. they cant be too hard to land and that would be the most fun of all the available sport teams.

dayton should grab one of those arena football teams next. they cant be too hard to land and that would be the most fun of all the available sport teams.

 

Well, based on past performance, that might not be the best investment.  Maybe the third time will be a charm....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Warbirds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Bulldogs

This blog actually had a picture of how few people actually went to Dayton Bulldog games... 

 

And actually there already is a third attempt at arena football in the Miami Valley, this one in Troy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Valley_Silverbacks

Dayton's Economic Area does have sufficient Total Personal Income to support 1 of the following franchises: NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS.

 

However, the Total Personal Income of the Cincinnati Economic Area is insufficient to support both the Reds and Bengals, in fact, it's TPI is insufficient for the Reds alone, which is by far the most demanding of the major sports leagues.  Cincinnati ranks as one of the most over-extended sports markets.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_overextend/8.html

I was wondering why you brought this up...until I read this:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_overextend/4.html

Shhhh...

 

I was supporting Dayton's argument for a pro sports franchise anyways!  ;)

 

 

 

(maybe you could get MLS)

No.  Black folks don't "do" soccer unless A). Prince George's County, Maryland or B). Habla Espanol.

I think the Reds draw on a much larger audience than is just in our metro area.  most of kentucky and eastern ohio supports the reds.  my cousin lives in west virginia and and almost everyone there are reds fans.

The Reds do have a large market, but I wouldn't say that most of Eastern Ohio supports them...  :wink:  Did you mean western?

 

http://www.commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2

I must have

The Reds do have a large market, but I wouldn't say that most of Eastern Ohio supports them...  :wink:  Did you mean western?

 

http://www.commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2

 

Indeed... in addition, I wouldn't say "almost everyone in West Virginia" is a Reds fan... it depends where you are in WV... the Huntingdon area certainly is Reds country... but northern WV is Pirates country... the Pirates also have sizable fanbases in Parkersburg and Charleston.  The Eastern Panhandle is Orioles/Nationals territory.  According to a Sports Illustrated poll done for all 50 states a few years back... the Pirates are WV's favorite MLB team... unfortunately WV doesn't have any nearby quality baseball clubs to choose from lol   

Dayton's Economic Area does have sufficient Total Personal Income to support 1 of the following franchises: NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS.

 

However, the Total Personal Income of the Cincinnati Economic Area is insufficient to support both the Reds and Bengals, in fact, it's TPI is insufficient for the Reds alone, which is by far the most demanding of the major sports leagues.  Cincinnati ranks as one of the most over-extended sports markets.

 

I must be missing something here...So Dayton's TPI can support "1 of the following franchises: NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS."  But Cincinnati's TPI cannot even support a baseball franchise?!?!?!?!

 

Something is wrong here, per capita (as thomasbw pointed out earlier) Cincy's TPI is better than any other Ohio city...and is a metro around 2 million.  I don't see how that is "insufficient for the Reds alone".

An MLB franchise demands a Total Personal Income from the immediate Economic Area of about $90 billion... due to the unique economics of the sport and extreme frequency of events.  Cincinnati's Economic Area has a shortfall of $15 billion.  Heck, Pittsburgh's TPI is only $6 billion above the MLB threshold and has another two pro franchises on top of that... and we wonder why our MLB teams suck every year ;)

 

NFL, NHL, NBA all demand TPIs in the $30-$40 range.  Dayton has the TPI to support 1 one of those franchises. 

 

Cincy does have the best "Per Capita Personal Income" in Ohio... but it's TPI is half that of Cleveland's Economic Area and less than Columbus. 

 

That said... it's one thing for a market to have TPI... but it's up to the citizenry to choose how to spend it. 

 

There are other external factors in play when it comes to the economic viability of a franchise... and I do believe Dayton's nearby TPI does contribute significantly to the economic health of Cincy franchises... but it's hard to quantify that.  Most areas have nearby secondary markets they can draw from... but it is diminished due to geographic distance.  Cincy is probably affected by this more, since the TPI of the adjacent Dayton market is about 60% that of the immediate Cincy market.

 

 

The Reds do have a large market, but I wouldn't say that most of Eastern Ohio supports them...  :wink:  Did you mean western?

 

http://www.commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2

 

Indeed... in addition, I wouldn't say "almost everyone in West Virginia" is a Reds fan... it depends where you are in WV... the Huntingdon area certainly is Reds country... but northern WV is Pirates country... the Pirates also have sizable fanbases in Parkersburg and Charleston.  The Eastern Panhandle is Orioles/Nationals territory.  According to a Sports Illustrated poll done for all 50 states a few years back... the Pirates are WV's favorite MLB team... unfortunately WV doesn't have any nearby quality baseball clubs to choose from lol   

 

my cousin lives right across the ohio river in WV, so my perceptions are skewed.

after the cindaynati merge, the TPI should be high enough to support the cindaynati reds

Actually, I think it's unlikely that Dayton and Cincy metros merge in the near future... considering they don't even share a common Economic Area at present.  They are close... and there's overlap... and there's suburbs in between the cities where you don't quite know if you're in Cincy or Dayton territory... but the cities and their economies seem to be relatively independent of each other at present... it's more of a small megapolitan area... a continuous string of large metros that have relationships but have central nodes that function independently... like BosWash on a MUCH smaller scale

Somehow i think that you are very negative in EVERY aspect of SW Ohio Evergrey. I take it, that you have never even lived here.

dayton should grab one of those arena football teams next. they cant be too hard to land and that would be the most fun of all the available sport teams.

 

Well, based on past performance, that might not be the best investment.  Maybe the third time will be a charm....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Warbirds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Bulldogs

This blog actually had a picture of how few people actually went to Dayton Bulldog games... 

 

And actually there already is a third attempt at arena football in the Miami Valley, this one in Troy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Valley_Silverbacks

 

so they already have one in the region currently? well there ya go.

 

even more fun -- hows about landing something like the summer x games? california has it for the next few years but it looks like its open for 2011:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Games

 

 

Somehow i think that you are very negative in EVERY aspect of SW Ohio Evergrey. I take it, that you have never even lived here.

 

wait a sec, are you saying its very positive for cin/day to merge as a megalopolis? that would just mean so much more sprawl. ugh. no, that is not good.

Hmm so Cleveland and Akron is not good? Or Olympia lumped in with Seattle?

Actually, I believe Evergrey actually likes Southwest Ohio, so I wouldn't go there, unusualfire.

Actually, I think it's unlikely that Dayton and Cincy metros merge in the near future... considering they don't even share a common Economic Area at present.  They are close... and there's overlap... and there's suburbs in between the cities where you don't quite know if you're in Cincy or Dayton territory... but the cities and their economies seem to be relatively independent of each other at present... it's more of a small megapolitan area... a continuous string of large metros that have relationships but have central nodes that function independently... like BosWash on a MUCH smaller scale

 

I would venture to say the Census bureau would disagree with you on this.  They use commuting patterns to determine MSA/CSA's...and Cincinnati-Dayton are much more interconnected than one would think.  I don't have a doubt in my mind that Cincinnati-Dayton will be combined by the next Census (2010).  Not to mention I'm not so sure how much weight can be put into the EA's that you keep mentioning.  They just don't seem to have 'real world' applications.

I also wonder how "practical" this method of determining whether a metro can support a team really is.  Cincinnati and Pittsburgh sort of show that.  According to the stats, Pitt has more of the necessary personal income available.  But the Penguins have been in dire straits for what, a decade?  And the Pirates, despite a great new ballpark, are back in the bottom 5 of MLB.  Contrast that with the Reds who, despite their problems, consistently have (1) a higher payroll than the Pirates and (2) more success at the turnstiles.  Maybe all the Pirates problems come from money going to the Pens that could go to the Pirates, but I doubt it. 

 

I guess I just doubt how useful this is as a method for determining whether a market can support a team (or two, or three). 

I am sure the Census Bureau has done their homework on defining "Economic Areas", but it seems like many do not logically make sense.  For example, Dayton is not part of the Cincinnati EA, yet a county in West Virginia is part of Columbus (there are obviously some very large EA's).  So the assumption, by adding the income of the people from WV is that they would support the Blue Jackets as they are applying this to sports teams.  Are we to believe that as a percentage these people are more likely to go to a Blue Jackets game than people from Dayton are to go to a Reds or Bengals game?  I'm sure that 2 hour drive on a Wednesday for the NHL is a common occurrence.  I also think both the Reds and Bengals would be surprised to find that they sell no tickets to people from Dayton.

 

I apologize for continuing the sidebar as this is way off topic....

Somehow i think that you are very negative in EVERY aspect of SW Ohio Evergrey. I take it, that you have never even lived here.

 

What does critically analyzing numbers have to do with being "negative" about a region?  Does every post have to be, "Yeahhhhhh  CIncI rox and can do anything cuz it's the greatest!!!!!1111111"? 

 

I love SW Ohio... get off my back! 

Actually, I think it's unlikely that Dayton and Cincy metros merge in the near future... considering they don't even share a common Economic Area at present.  They are close... and there's overlap... and there's suburbs in between the cities where you don't quite know if you're in Cincy or Dayton territory... but the cities and their economies seem to be relatively independent of each other at present... it's more of a small megapolitan area... a continuous string of large metros that have relationships but have central nodes that function independently... like BosWash on a MUCH smaller scale

 

I would venture to say the Census bureau would disagree with you on this.  They use commuting patterns to determine MSA/CSA's...and Cincinnati-Dayton are much more interconnected than one would think.  I don't have a doubt in my mind that Cincinnati-Dayton will be combined by the next Census (2010).  Not to mention I'm not so sure how much weight can be put into the EA's that you keep mentioning.  They just don't seem to have 'real world' applications.

 

 

My argument is that if Cincy and Dayton were interconnected enough to be merged into a CSA... the Bureau of Economic Analysis would already have the two cities merged into a single Economic Area... but they're not.  There is not a single instance where a CSA or MSA is split amongst 2 or more Economic Areas.  I don't doubt there's significant economic interaction and cross-metro commuting... but I doubt it's great enough for the CSA merger to take place.  Commuting is related to the economic structure of the region. 

 

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis: "BEA's economic areas define the relevant regional markets surrounding metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas. They consist of one or more economic nodes - metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas that serve as regional centers of economic activity - and the surrounding counties that are economically related to the nodes."

 

Economic Areas, while not discussed much on these forums, are much more relevant to decisions made in the business world.  The EA represents a regional marketplace based on economic activity.  That is why, for instance, the Business Journals study of "Oversaturated Sports Markets" used Total Personal Income of Economic Areas instead of Metro Areas.  I'm not privy to the inner workings of the methodology... but I guess according to the BEA's numbers... Cincy and Dayton fall short of being merged into a single EA.  This can possibly be due to the fact that Dayton, despite proximity to Cincy... is strong enough on its own to remain its own economic center... instead of being a Cincy satellite. 

 

 

If there was enough commuting going on between Cincy MSA and Dayton MSA to form a Cincy-Dayton CSA... there would already be a Cincy-Dayton EA.  That is purely my speculation based on analysis of numbers... so we'll have to wait and see what the Census and BEA decide on the fate of the SW Ohio megalopolis. 

 

 

I also wonder how "practical" this method of determining whether a metro can support a team really is.  Cincinnati and Pittsburgh sort of show that.  According to the stats, Pitt has more of the necessary personal income available.  But the Penguins have been in dire straits for what, a decade?  And the Pirates, despite a great new ballpark, are back in the bottom 5 of MLB.  Contrast that with the Reds who, despite their problems, consistently have (1) a higher payroll than the Pirates and (2) more success at the turnstiles.  Maybe all the Pirates problems come from money going to the Pens that could go to the Pirates, but I doubt it. 

 

I guess I just doubt how useful this is as a method for determining whether a market can support a team (or two, or three). 

 

Reread the stats.  Pittsburgh's EA does not have the necessary Total Personal Income to support its present teams: NFL's Steelers, MLB's Pirates and NHL's Penguins.  In fact, while Cincy ranks as the 8th most over-extended sports market, Pittsburgh ranks 4th.  Pittsburgh's TPI of $96B would be barely enough to support the Pirates alone... or it would be sufficient to support the Penguins AND Steelers.  The income shortfall is one reason 2 of our franchises are at an economic disadvantage. 

 

And while I think an EA's TPI is the No. 1 factor in determining the economic viability of a franchise, I think there are significant external factors to consider... as I stated earlier. 

 

Pittsburgh's TPI limitations are probably a major reason the Pirates have been so pitiful on the field and in attendance for so long.  The Pirates, Reds, Brewers, etc. simply cannot compete with the Red Sox and Yankees because of the revenue limitations of a small market.  Even when they were successful, they drew poorly... which could probably be partially blamed on the sterile environment of Three Rivers Stadium.  The new stadium had the opportunity to give the franchise a considerable boost... but the Pirates' inept ownership squandered that.  However, they're still making a tidy profit despite consistent on-field failure.

 

The Penguins are a different story.  They are not threatening to leave for Kansas City because of poor attendance... they sell out almost every game.  They're threatening to move because their outdated arena limits their revenue potential.  Kansas City is an even smaller market that will instantly become the most over-extended sports market in America if the Pens arrive.  However, KC is offering the Pens a sweetheart arena deal that could cushion the blow of moving to a smaller market considerably.  In the long term, I don't think this will work out for the Pens... and either they... or another team... like the Royals... will be forced to relocate due to the extreme TPI shortfall. 

 

Hockey, I think, is a slightly different animal... it's more of a regional niche sport than the other sports... and while Houston has ample TPI to support a hockey franchise... would it really flourish in a place that never sees snow and has no hockey history?  Pittsburgh had a few down years when they were the worst team in the league... but it's usually one of the top hockey markets in the US when it comes to local television ratings, attendance, merchandise sales, etc. 

Somehow i think that you are very negative in EVERY aspect of SW Ohio Evergrey. I take it, that you have never even lived here.

 

Yeah, I would say Evergrey likes Cincinnati too ... how can he love Pittsburgh and dislike Cincy? The two are too similar, except we have better neighborhoods. ;)