A tourist light rail line is being proposed as part of the Dayton Aviation Heritage National Historic Site on the west side of Dayton (the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood). 

 

The line is actually a cut-back version of a much more extensive original proposal that would have linked the Wright-Dunbar area with the Air Force Museum and the Huffman Praire Flying Field on Wright-Patterson AFB.

 

This scheme was, early on, deemed too costly, and this cut-back version is whats now being proposed, linking Wright-Dunbar with downtown Dayton and the Oregon District (5th Street, in the Oregon, is Daytons version of an in-town restaurant/nightlife quarter).

Atleast it is a start.

WOW! I had no clue! WOW!

 

Thanks!

The movers and shakers around the national park always had some concept of a heritage rail developement, or at least an 'interpretation' of the Wright Brothers using the interurban to get to their flying field.

 

The husband of a former coworker of mine was a railfan, and did an overly optimistic study that used the heritage rail concept as the basis for the beginnings of a light-rail system for Dayton.

 

Then, the scheme was cut wayback to the the Huffman Prairie/Wright Dunbar line, and even that proved too expensive (the engineering to bring the through the Route 444/Kaufmann/Sringfield Street intersection, then over or around Huffman Dam was just too involved), so we have this rump line as the end result.

 

*****

 

Interestingly enough, I ran across an old study at the Wright State library, from the early-mid 1970s, to put in a light rail line from downtown Dayton to Centerville, following the right-of-way of the old Cincinnati, Lebanon, and Northern narrowgauge line. The study was fairly detailed, including track layouts and schematics of stations. I suspect this concept arose out the controversy of constructing I-675, which I heard the City of Dayton opposed at the time. If built this would have been one of the earlier light rail lines in the US.

The movers and shakers around the national park always had some concept of a heritage rail developement, or at least an 'interpretation' of the Wright Brothers using the interurban to get to their flying field.

 

The husband of a former coworker of mine was a railfan, and did an overly optimistic study that used the heritage rail concept as the basis for the beginnings of a light-rail system for Dayton.

 

Then, the scheme was cut wayback to the the Huffman Prairie/Wright Dunbar line, and even that proved too expensive (the engineering to bring the through the Route 444/Kaufmann/Sringfield Street intersection, then over or around Huffman Dam was just too involved), so we have this rump line as the end result.

 

*****

 

Interestingly enough, I ran across an old study at the Wright State library, from the early-mid 1970s, to put in a light rail line from downtown Dayton to Centerville, following the right-of-way of the old Cincinnati, Lebanon, and Northern narrowgauge line. The study was fairly detailed, including track layouts and schematics of stations. I suspect this concept arose out the controversy of constructing I-675, which I heard the City of Dayton opposed at the time. If built this would have been one of the earlier light rail lines in the US.

From the 1/24/05 Dayton Business News:

 

 

Streetcars may roll into Dayton

John Wilfong

DBJ Staff Reporter

 

Miami Valley Regional Planning Commission officials are touting a plan for a $60 million streetcar system.

 

The electric-powered streetcars are expected to look similar to the old-fashioned streetcars popularized in San Francisco. They would run on a rail system on area roads among regular vehicle traffic and link different areas of the city, such as the University of Dayton and the U.S. Air Force Museum to downtown Dayton, said Mike Robinette, MVRPC executive director.

 

The plan, drafted by Gem Public Sector Services, an affiliate of Dayton-based Gem Real Estate Group Inc., calls for a 16-mile system of three interconnected routes that could be built in a seven-year period. Robinette said the annual operating cost would be approximately $1.8 million.

 

The idea of some sort of light-rail transportation linking tourist attractions and other areas of the city has been kicked around for more than a decade, Robinette said. But this plan is the first to deal specifically with a streetcar system and is by far the most realistic and extensive to date, he said.

 

"If you look at this project to just serve one area, it's hard to justify the effort and expense," Robinette said. "This is in no way to take the place of the regular bus system the (Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority) runs. It is not for the same purpose."

 

A streetcar system could enhance economic development efforts, boost tourism, provide park and ride options, and better connect different areas of the city, said Norm Essman, Dayton's economic development director. For example, streetcars could take University of Dayton students downtown for a Dayton Dragons game or dinner in the Oregon District or carry downtown workers to the Brown Street area for lunch, he said. It also would make a trip to the city more inviting for some of the estimated 1.3 million Air Force Museum visitors, he said.

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2005/01/24/story2.html

 

Interesting, but how would this be much different (functionally) from the trolley buses that already exist?  Just pretend you're on rails instead of wheels. :wink:

I think they're relying on the novelty factor.

doesn't this price tag seem a little low?

I think this says it all:

"Robinette said the RTA, which runs the area's regular bus system, is the most logical organization to operate the system given its expertise and experience with transportation systems. RTA officials could not be reached for comment."

 

Did you know more people walk to work or work at home in the Dayton region than take public transit?

 

This has been bouncing around for a few years now.  I also saw a low-ball study for a "heritage" streetcar system that went to the AF Museum, WSU, Stroop Rd, Carillon Park, Wright Dunbar, and  Huffman Prairie.  It was also shot down because the estimate was way lowball...esp the cost of crossing OH 444 and Huffman Dam to bring the trolly out to Huffman Prairie.  I think the proposal was a way of getting "iight rail" in the disguise of a heritage trolly.  This almost sounds like a revived version that old proposal.

 

So far the most sensible approach that I've seen was the proposal to link Wright-Dunbar with the Oregon District via downtown Dayton.  That would be a good starter line for a hertiage trolly.  Then maybe an extension to the USAF museum, if the security issues can be addressed.  Then to Carillon Park.  Thats what makes the most sense.

 

From a tourist perspective the USAF Museum brings in the most tourists. So it might make sense to bring in the trolly to the museum somehow.

 

From a historic interpretation perspective it would be nice to run this heritage trolley out to Huffman Prairie as thats how the Wright Brothers got there...via interurban. But thats not realistic from a cost and security perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So far the most sensible approach that I've seen was the proposal to link Wright-Dunbar with the Oregon District via downtown Dayton.  That would be a good starter line for a hertiage trolly.  Then maybe an extension to the USAF museum, if the security issues can be addressed.  Then to Carillon Park.  Thats what makes the most sense.

 

Bingo.  And thus, focusing on Third Street/Springfield (depending on what side of town you are on) is critical.  But of course, Third has a long way to go.

I found out a bit more on the Desire named Streetcar at the MVRPC site.

 

n the summer of 2004, MVRPC hired Stone Consulting to review the study findings and cost estimates. As a result of Stone Consulting’s review of the study, the recommended streetcar routes were altered and are now comprised of two circulator routes in the downtown area and a linear route the would connect to the National Museum of the Air Force. MVRPC also hired GEM Public Sector Services to conduct an independent economic impact analysis (:341 kb). A Ridership survey was conducted in the Fall of 2004 by MVRPC staff. The survey was administered at nine locations along the proposed streetcar routes and over 1,000 completed questionnaires were collected.

 

A comprehensive Power Point presentation outlining the revisions to the recommended LPA was created and presented to various stakeholders in the community. In February 2005, the revised LPA will be presented to the MVRPC Steering Committee. If the Steering Committee recommends endorsement, the revised LPA will be forwarded to the MVRPC Technical Advisory Committee and Board for endorsement to be amended into the Long Range Transportation Plan.

 

you can link to the site (with hyperlinks to the referenced .ppt presentation and the economic impact analyses here.

 

Looks like they really are going to push for this heritage trolley system.

 

 

 

I found out a bit more on the Desire named Streetcar

 

That's about 4 times too cute for words......

UPDATE:

 

As of February 20:

 

Rail Transit Online, February 2005

 

The local regional planning commission has unveiled a concept for a three-line, 16-mi. (25.7 km) streetcar system linking major traffic generators and tourist attractions.  The scheme was designed by a local firm, Gem Public Sector Services, which estimates capital costs at $60 million and annual operating expenses of $1.8 million.  Among the destinations that could be served are the University of Dayton, the U.S. Air Force Museum, various federal National Parks sites and downtown.  Several earlier proposals for streetcars or heritage trolleys never got off the ground but planning commission officials believe this project is much more realistic and would help with Dayton’s economic revival.  At one time, Dayton was served by six separate electric railway companies, two of which were interurbans.

 

http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planDaytoniRTOL2.htm

 

 

Well, they had more than two interurbans here. 

 

The more I study the growth of Dayton the more I notice how the coming of the interurbans really set off a suburban real estate boom here in the years before WWI.

 

As for this proposal I have not heard more about it. 

The Dayton Streetcar project is still alive - well, there is still a pulse.  Check out http://grassrootsdayton.com/node/2 - Grassroots Dayton is led by the former MVRPC director, so there is hope...

Something doesn't smell right about that estimate.  $60 million for 16 miles?!?!

 

Columbus' estimates were $64-77 million for the basic 2.1 mile (4.9 track mile) starter line!

 

Are we sure that Dayton isn't talking abut rubber tires?

I believe Dayton is proposing to use an existing rail right of way.

RTA takes leadership in rail plan

 

By James Cummings

 

Staff Writer

 

Friday, November 30, 2007

 

DAYTON — The Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority will take a leadership role in implementing a plan to create a streetcar system that would connect the University of Dayton area to downtown, transit authority board chairman Bryan Bucklew said Thursday.

 

And though the RTA probably will be the agency through which federal funds for such a project would be funneled, Bucklew and other officials said the transit authority can't afford to put any of its budget into building or running the rail system.

 

About 75 supporters of a Heritage Streetcar system met Thursday at the Dayton Convention Center to discuss the benefits and costs of such a project. Streetcars, which would run on rails with overhead electrical lines, have been proposed as a way to link the scattered sites associated with Dayton's aviation history — from West Dayton through downtown to the Museum of the U.S. Air Force.

 

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2007/11/30/ddn113007rail.html

It disturbs me that they're calling it "Heritage Streetcar system."

Whatever gets it rolling..... but the word "heritage" does not creat anm image of modern rail-based transportation.

 

Apologies to Ronnie.... I didn't know you already posted this.  I posted it on the Dayton RTA Thread as well.  I'll take mine off.

No apologies needed. I've done that before ;-)

 

The original plans called for the rail system to run between points of interest along aviation trail which I guess is viewed as Dayton's heritage, hence the name. However, if this is now going to run from UD to downtown then the name does need reworked. Suggestions?

Why not call it "The Dayton Flyer" ?

 

Also, the City of Riverside (near Dayton) is looking at setting aside some land near the Air Force Museum and the nearby rail corridor for a possible multi-modal transit stop.  I'm guessing the proposed streetcar would be accomodated.

Does it need a name (aside from a route number or color)?

I think a name would be ok. Since Dayton has no current rail lines and I'm sure this would be the only one for some time, it will be unique...at least for Dayton.

Just what the UD campus needs.. an easier method for the hobos and bums to get to campus.

If they can bum enough for the fair.

Whenever I hear the word "heritage" I think of the scene from O Brother... where Pappy O'Daniels opponent and KKK member yells to the crowd "That's not my heritage and culture!" shortly before being run out on a rail.

Just what the UD campus needs.. an easier method for the hobos and bums to get to campus.

 

I may be a bum but I am no hobo... :drunk: (or is that the other way around)

They probably need to create a seperate authority to build and operatre the system as RTA is bugging out.

 

I wonder why they just dont kill this outright instead of death by committee.

 

 

I think its interesting to contrast the can-do/will-do approach from local govt. in Cincinnati with this ennui here in Dayton. 

 

 

Just what the UD campus needs.. an easier method for the hobos and bums to get to campus.

^I've never seen a statue honoring a pessimist.

more from the ddn:

 

Downtown streetcar estimates triple

By James Cummings

Staff Writer

Saturday, August 30, 2008

 

DAYTON — A project to develop a streetcar system connecting the University of area with downtown Dayton would cost about three times as much as the Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority estimated last year, according to a consultant's study.  Consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff were hired to look at other streetcar systems around the country and project how much it would cost to establish a line of about two miles from Caldwell Street to Third and Main streets.

 

To lay track, install overhead electrical line, buy cars and other expenses, Parsons Brinckerhoff said the cost would be about $125 million.  Operating the system would cost about $2 million annually.  Transit authority officials last year gave a rough estimate that such a streetcar line would cost about $40 million to build and $700,000 a year to run.

 

Mark Donaghy, executive director of the transit authority, said the consultant's study looked at a slightly longer route than the transit authority considered last year.  Donaghy said the next step will be for a task force formed last year to study streetcar options to review the consultant's report and make a recommendation to the transit authority board.  The transit authority would seek federal and state funding for a streetcar system, but has said the agency can't afford to commit any resources to the project.

 

MORE: www.daytondailynews.com

^thats about right