Plus, the developer makes the point that those historic buildings rise five stories straight up from the sidewalk. The proposed building on Fulton would rise from a step back atop the existing building. There is no sheer frontage except above the garage entrance on West 31st.

^^This is a key point.  I hope it is hammered home before the various boards when seeking approval.

Edited February 5, 20214 yr by Htsguy

To the point above how we all look at these projects differently: If I were the next-door neighbor I'd rather the building be pushed right up to the sidewalk so it'd put a bigger buffer between my house and the apartment building.

Exactly, it's a key point that does not support approval.  If the height/density is justified by classifying Fulton Road as a thoroughfare, it's contradictory to push the bulk back towards 31st Place (a narrow, one way street that essentially serves as an alley for the low intensity uses near its junction with Woodbine).  The Fulton project is too dense to squeeze on site located between two T-intersections.  I do not see how the proposal could possibly satisfy the standard for obtaining the numerous to zoning variances required. 

Edited February 5, 20214 yr by grayfields
Corrected 31st as Place, not Street

Variances are granted every Monday from 9:30-11:30 at the Board of Zoning Appeals.

And appealable to the Court of Common Pleas

Sure is David.

If Riverview Towers were market rate apartments, they would be some of the most desired in the city in terms of location.  Right on top of Irish Bend, amazing views of downtown, right next to the WSM, right by the rapid, and you can easily walk downtown.

 

The proposal does not meet the criteria of the guidelines which state the following:

• As with new additions, the massing, size, scale, and architectural features of new construction on the site of a historic building must be compatible with those of the historic building. When visible and in close proximity to historic buildings, the new construction must be subordinate to these buildings. New construction should also be distinct from the old and must not attempt to replicate historic buildings elsewhere on site and to avoid creating a false sense of historic development.
• The limitations on the size, scale, and design of new construction may be less critical the farther it is located from historic buildings.

This criteria is concerned with the structures that are visibly surrounding the new structure and not a block or two away.  Here are the surroundings adjacent to the site in question:

• 

 

The proposed building is substantially out of scale with these surroundings. The referenced West Side Community house, built in 1922, is out of scale with its surrounding older Victorian structures and, in part, resulted in zoning being implemented in 1929. Such an out of scale development has not occurred in the 90 years of zoning and the 47 years of the Historic District (1974) and this project would certainly set a new precedent. Along these lines, I would like to ask the following... Considering this project violates zoning and historic specifications where is the line drawn regarding what is acceptable to build? Can one build a five or six story residential/commercial building on any empty lot on a residential street in the neighborhood? Perhaps this thread is not the proper place to discuss.

 

I enjoy the increasing density, the new buildings and businesses of the neighborhood. I also believe Ohio City has done such a good job of accommodating new development with respect to the existing historic and urban fabric. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 20214 yr by OC_Charlie

23 hours ago, KJP said:

Woot!

 

 

This is an exciting and transformative project. I do wish the narrowing of West 25th to match the market district area were part of the project. This would also allow additional space for storefront buildings to be built between Riverview and the street. Perhaps the curb cuts for Riverview could be moved to the side (off of Bridge). These changes would result in a more pedestrian friendly experience along this stretch.   

 

^^Sounds like a lot of opinion. Opinions change with time and place. Someone from Toronto or Vancouver would say that this development is staying within scale of the neighborhood because there they would consider it out of scale if it were in the 30- to 40-story range.

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

^^Sounds like a lot of opinion. Opinions change with time and place. Someone from Toronto or Vancouver would say that this development is staying within scale of the neighborhood because there they would consider it out of scale if it were in the 30- to 40-story range.

 

The specification defines scale... not my opinion.

To @OC_Charlie's point, I think the project would benefit more from an aesthetic more appropriate to the neighborhood, i.e. red brick with finishes that make it blend with the homes in the neighborhood. 

 

I'm a YIMBY on just about every project, and I believe there should be additional density in this location, but I think design review is warranted. 

 

If we look at buildings that add density and aesthetic, I think Clinton West and the Dexter should be our blueprints for OC moving forward. 

Edited February 6, 20214 yr by YABO713

25 minutes ago, OC_Charlie said:

 

This is an exciting and transformative project. I do wish the narrowing of West 25th to match the market district area were part of the project. This would also allow additional space for storefront buildings to be built between Riverview and the street. Perhaps the curb cuts for Riverview could be moved to the side (off of Bridge). These changes would result in a more pedestrian friendly experience along this stretch.   

 

I am pretty sure the narrowing of W. 25th is envisioned as part of the project.  I doubt, however they are contemplating a narrowing similar to market district.

FWIW - I've heard that W. 29th between Clinton and Detroit will be pedestrian only within the next 2 years - likely faster if Bibb is elected. 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

^^Sounds like a lot of opinion. Opinions change with time and place. Someone from Toronto or Vancouver would say that this development is staying within scale of the neighborhood because there they would consider it out of scale if it were in the 30- to 40-story range.

 

Each property is inherently unique.  I'm not familiar with what neighborhoods are being referenced, but the unique characteristics of this property do not support what is proposed.  I'm pro-development, welcome the investment interest, and current conditions on this site could certainly use improvement.  But they're preferable over this offering, IMHO. 

Edited February 6, 20214 yr by grayfields

Irishtown Bend News. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/two-buildings-slated-for-demolition-with-work-starting-as-early-as-monday-for-irishtown-bend-project

6 hours ago, simplythis said:

Irishtown Bend News. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/two-buildings-slated-for-demolition-with-work-starting-as-early-as-monday-for-irishtown-bend-project

I personally don’t like having a park entrance stretching from Riverview Towers to Detroit Avenue along West 25th. If I understand that correctly.

Imo that stretch of W. 25th St. should have store fronts and high-rise apartments that overlook the city with the park in the Valley behind it. Also, something has to be developed on the hospital parking lots across the street. If we want more dense urban neighborhoods that’s the Way to go.

I enjoy green spaces and parks but just not along W. 25th St. We have the best metro park system in the country arguably. Along with developing redline greenway,Edgewater, Wendy park, Cuyahoga Valley, etc. do we need to put green space along W.25th? I definitely hope I misunderstood the article

Edited February 7, 20214 yr by Watertiger1962

18 minutes ago, Watertiger1962 said:

I personally don’t like having a park entrance stretching from Riverview Towers to Detroit Avenue along West 25th. If I understand that correctly.

Imo that stretch of W. 25th St. should have store fronts and high-rise apartments that overlook the city with the park in the Valley behind it. Also, something has to be developed on the hospital parking lots across the street. If we want more dense urban neighborhoods that’s the Way to go.

I enjoy green spaces and parks but just not along W. 25th St. We have the best metro park system in the country arguably. Along with developing redline greenway,Edgewater, Wendy park, Cuyahoga Valley, etc. do we need to put green space along W.25th? I definitely hope I misunderstood the article

 

It makes more sense to think about filling in the parking craters on the west side of W 25th st before worrying about the park-side of the street.  This park will act as an impetus to get those west lots filled.

17 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

It makes more sense to think about filling in the parking craters on the west side of W 25th st before worrying about the park-side of the street.  This park will act as an impetus to get those west lots filled.

I hope you’re correct. That northern section of West 25th has been an eyesore/dead zone for decades.

40 minutes ago, Watertiger1962 said:

I personally don’t like having a park entrance stretching from Riverview Towers to Detroit Avenue along West 25th. If I understand that correctly.

Imo that stretch of W. 25th St. should have store fronts and high-rise apartments that overlook the city with the park in the Valley behind it. Also, something has to be developed on the hospital parking lots across the street. If we want more dense urban neighborhoods that’s the Way to go.

I enjoy green spaces and parks but just not along W. 25th St. We have the best metro park system in the country arguably. Along with developing redline greenway,Edgewater, Wendy park, Cuyahoga Valley, etc. do we need to put green space along W.25th? I definitely hope I misunderstood the article

I understand. And I kinda agree that I'd like to see a few buildings on that side too. But there's a reason they're not doing that and tearing down the existing buildings. That side of W 25th isn't stable. Half of the work for the park is being done to stabilize the land so it doesn't crumble into the water. If I'm understanding correctly, high-rises wouldn't be stable there, hence the park only.

21 hours ago, YABO713 said:

FWIW - I've heard that W. 29th between Clinton and Detroit will be pedestrian only within the next 2 years - likely faster if Bibb is elected. 

Interestingly the Dexter, and its faux historicism, is exactly what the Secretary of the Interior discourages from an aesthetic perspective in a landmark district. Same for the other historic knock offs on Clinton.

Edited February 7, 20214 yr by w28th

2 hours ago, w28th said:

Interestingly the Dexter, and its faux historicism, are exactly what the Secretary of the Interior discourages from an aesthetic perspective in a landmark district. Same for the other historic knock offs on Clinton.

I'd argue you can still tell from some design elements that it isn't an historic building.

Though contrary to the design standards, faux-historicism is exactly what most of the residents want. I find it pretty silly that it's a rule, but that's just my design preference.

On 2/6/2021 at 10:04 AM, OC_Charlie said:

 

This is an exciting and transformative project. I do wish the narrowing of West 25th to match the market district area were part of the project. This would also allow additional space for storefront buildings to be built between Riverview and the street. Perhaps the curb cuts for Riverview could be moved to the side (off of Bridge). These changes would result in a more pedestrian friendly experience along this stretch.   

 

 

This sort of transformation to W 25th was part of the awesome HOPE VI plan that was scuttled ~15 years ago due to the unstable hillside.   You can see a few images of the plan on the second page of this very thread.  IIRC, this plan was well on its way to being funded and ready to go when the geotechnical limitations were discovered. It would have been truly transformative.

 

 

 

Has there been any discussion of housing being built along the park? Seems like a prime spot to line with houses, etc.


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51 minutes ago, Ruken said:

Has there been any discussion of housing being built along the park? Seems like a prime spot to line with houses, etc.


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I mentioned in this piece that the Lutheran Lot is a prime candidate for a TMUD tax credit. Weston and Kertesz have been considering several years a significant development for this lot IF they can find a way to afford constructing a large parking deck for consolidating its 530 spaces -- as well as a smattering of surface lot spaces on the south side of the hospital. Build tall along West 25 (possibly with caissons to bedrock to ensure stability) and then reduce the density as you build toward West 28th...

 

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/01/counting-cranes-predicting-tmuds-impact.html

 

Given everything going on in Ohio City development wise and the rising property values you would think a significant development on the Lutheran lots would be a no brainer, especially since they are in the heart of things and would afford incredible skyline views.  However, I then remember the Jacobs lot and other surface lots in the Warehouse District that strangely lingered for years (decades).  Self interest always seems to be a major impediment.  Whether it is holding out for an unrealistic price or in this case coming up with an affordable parking formula to meet the needs of the hospital, what "should be the case" seems to take forever to come to fruition.  

 

By the way, really cool google earth view.

Edited February 7, 20214 yr by Htsguy

My understanding is that there are several sticking points, and it all centers around the parking. First, Cleveland Clinic is slow/bureaucratic to work with anyway when it comes to real estate. And they don't have a real big incentive to act fast here. They have a parking lot and it works for them and their employees. So someone has to give them a reason to change. It's a 5.33-acre lot (including the two parcels the Weston-Kertesz JV already owns). Considering that the 1.7-acre Cleveland Vibrator property nearby sold in 2019 sold for $3 million, we're probably looking at nearly $10 million for the Lutheran Hospital parking lot. That price requires new construction that is dense and/or vertical to defray the property acquisition costs. That doesn't even include the Kan Zaman restaurant property (another 0.49 acres).

 

If the 530 parking spaces are moved to the south side of the hospital, to the 125-space lot between Vestry and Jay, a deck with an almost square footprint and 80 spaces per level could fit 720 spaces on nine levels. 

 

That would have to be paid for by the developers since Cleveland Clinic has no need to change its parking situation. But does that AND a second deck for the development on the Lutheran Lot north of the hospital make sense? If most of the hospital workers are there in the daytime, then there's the possibility for a parking-sharing arrangement -- hospital employees mostly by day, Weston-Kertesz development residents by night. And whatever is built is going to have to be built in stages. Perhaps a smaller deck between Vestry-Jay so that a part of the Lutheran Lot can be developed (including a larger deck) and then the rest of the Lutheran Lot could be developed.

 

But that's going to take a lot of public funding, possibly up front which a TMUD tax credit may be of limited help. Would Cleveland Clinic be willing to pay that with a promise that it would be paid back in full by the developers? Lots of moving pieces here. At least the TMUD makes it possible. So might some state funding, such as from the capital budget (remember that The Lumen got a couple million dollars from the state's capital budget for its parking deck) or perhaps some Innovation District financing if the Weston-Kertesz development could have some office/incubator space in it in partnership with the Clinic. Just spitballing here. Whatever it is, I hope they can find the magic beans to make this site blossom because it could be a truly stunning development overlooking Irishtown Bend.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Htsguy said:

Given everything going on in Ohio City development wise and the rising property values you would think a significant development on the Lutheran lots would be a no brainer, especially since they are in the heart of things and would afford incredible skyline views.  However, I then remember the Jacobs lot and other surface lots in the Warehouse District that strangely lingered for years (decades).  Self interest always seems to be a major impediment.  Whether it is holding out for an unrealistic price or in this case coming up with an affordable parking formula to meet the needs of the hospital, what "should be the case" seems to take forever to come to fruition.  

 

By the way, really cool google earth view.

 

Yeah, cool view. Anyone know when that pedestrian bridge from the Lutheran entrance at Franklin-Fulton/28th was demo'd or what purpose it served?

Edited February 8, 20214 yr by grayfields

On 2/7/2021 at 3:16 PM, KJP said:

That would have to be paid for by the developers since Cleveland Clinic has no need to change its parking situation. But does that AND a second deck for the development on the Lutheran Lot north of the hospital make sense? If most of the hospital workers are there in the daytime, then there's the possibility for a parking-sharing arrangement -- hospital employees mostly by day, Weston-Kertesz development residents by night. And whatever is built is going to have to be built in stages. Perhaps a smaller deck between Vestry-Jay so that a part of the Lutheran Lot can be developed (including a larger deck) and then the rest of the Lutheran Lot could be developed.

 

 

If a strip of the parking lot closest to West 25th (between Franklin and W. 25th St Lofts) could be separated off and offered for development that would be a great starting point. That would minimize the loss of parking and would allow development fronting W. 25th along this stretch to take advantage of the amazing views. It would be ideal for the Kan Zaman property to be a part of this.  This would help establish some continuity with the W. 25th Street Lofts and Snavely buildings to the north. 

Edited February 8, 20214 yr by OC_Charlie

 

^That building was such an eyesore.  I'm thrilled to see it chopped into pebbles and matchsticks.

Just noticed the banner up. Not sure how long it’s been there.

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Just noticed the banner up. Not sure how long it’s been there.

Looks like they just posted on their IG for the first time in a couple years. Posted that banner 2 days ago.

I wondered why Mark Raymond was trying to get a hold of me a few days ago. I'll see if this is what it's about.

This hotel is to be built next to this building - in combination with this building, right?  Great place for a hotel - I'm sure the Irishtown Bend project finally seeing life is a big reason why it's finally moving. 

Initial demo. of the first structure is nearly complete, and the skyline is visible through the trees across all that asphalt.  Metropark’s contract includes clearing and grubbing, but I’m not sure of the project limits or scope with respect to the vegetation. 

Local Development Partners' Harbor 44 (offices over retail) is taking shape at Lorain Avenue and West 44th

 

 

3 hours ago, grayfields said:

Initial demo. of the first structure is nearly complete, and the skyline is visible through the trees across all that asphalt.  Metropark’s contract includes clearing and grubbing, but I’m not sure of the project limits or scope with respect to the vegetation. 

 

All I've got to say is those trees better stay. This city has a terrible history of tearing out mature trees.

Fake plants or not, I love how they finished off this building with those window boxes.  Building looks so good.

Franklin circle getting closer to being done.

Need some trees on Detroit and around Franklin Circle.

56 minutes ago, Taller_is_better said:

Fake plants or not, I love how they finished off this building with those window boxes.  Building looks so good.

 

There's a lot to like there- replace the fake balconies with real balconies, and the fake plants with real plants and it would be much better.  Come to think of it, replace the dark grey brickwork with a red or light brown brick and it would be even better.  It's a little dark and foreboding in that dark of a grey color.

7 minutes ago, X said:

 

There's a lot to like there- replace the fake balconies with real balconies, and the fake plants with real plants and it would be much better.  Come to think of it, replace the dark grey brickwork with a red or light brown brick and it would be even better.  It's a little dark and foreboding in that dark of a grey color.

I love the dark grey but yea real balconies would be great, do you think they didn’t do it because of how busy the road below is and sitting right on top of it or Simply a cost containing issue?

1 hour ago, Taller_is_better said:

Fake plants or not, I love how they finished off this building with those window boxes.  Building looks so good.

I wish the would’ve added real balconies tho. 

26 minutes ago, Taller_is_better said:

I love the dark grey but yea real balconies would be great, do you think they didn’t do it because of how busy the road below is and sitting right on top of it or Simply a cost containing issue?

 

I'm guessing #2.

27 minutes ago, Taller_is_better said:

I love the dark grey but yea real balconies would be great, do you think they didn’t do it because of how busy the road below is and sitting right on top of it or Simply a cost containing issue?

 

Maybe its because I remember when Downtown Cleveland was full of buildings this color- but because of the soot!  We climbed back from that in the 90's and early 2000's, one building at a time.  I don't want to go back just because somehow dark grey brick came into vogue.

Color-wise, I would’ve liked it more in a two tone scheme - I  feel we’ve got enough of that dark grey in the environment already. The “distressed” bricks help out a little with the green in the window boxes - balconies would’ve been even better! Still, a good addition! 

2 hours ago, Taller_is_better said:

Fake plants or not, I love how they finished off this building with those window boxes.  Building looks so good.

My favorite looking new construction building in Cleveland. I think the grey works well, and the fake plants help liven it up, even in the winter.