question? are you an architect, engineer, etc.  The reason I ask is we say these things should be easy, but most things are easier said than done.

 

Just because it has a courtyard doesn't make it suburban.  there are plenty of OLD building in cleveland with courtyards or greenspace.

i feel that there are certain buzz words register as positives or negatives in many residents minds. Architect: Do you want greenspace in the development? Resident: YES, GREENSPACE IS GOOD. 

 

I have the print edition of Crains. To anwser w28th's worry, it is not a neo-classical design. 

I have an educational and professional background in urban planning/design and development, but am not currently working in the field.  Anyway, if you're trying to invalidate armchair quarterbacking, then what exactly is the point of this site?

 

I can't imagine that it would have been any more difficult to have built the building up to the sidewalk.  Of course, now it would probably require a total redesign to take out the courtyard, but again, it isn't any harder to lay out a building without one.

 

As for the courtyard, I generally consider them streetcar suburban, more so than urban.  This building actually puts me more in mind of something that would be built in Cleveland Hts or Shaker Hts than in a more old school urban neighborhood of Cleveland.  It seems out of place for me to have a courtyard there.

 

Edit: quote added

question? are you an architect, engineer, etc.  The reason I ask is we say these things should be easy, but most things are easier said than done.

 

Just because it has a courtyard doesn't make it suburban.  there are plenty of OLD building in cleveland with courtyards or greenspace.

i feel that there are certain buzz words register as positives or negatives in many residents minds. Architect: Do you want greenspace in the development? Resident: YES, GREENSPACE IS GOOD. 

 

 

Exactly, and it has become a pet peeve of mine.  It seems not a development can be proposed that doesn't have some sort of little greenspace/courtyard/plaza.  Usually they are created as appeasement to the community or client, not as a useful functional outdoor space.  Even worse, sometimes they are just the left over scraps of an odd shaped parcel.  Our cities will be much more interesting and exciting places if we keep the little curves and irregularities in our street grid and block layout.  I didn't know if I should laugh or cry at FC's insistence that the little park they are inserting into Rockport Square is going to help "relieve the urban fabric".  The urban fabric in our city is so tattered that we need to patch it, not relieve it.

I have an educational and professional background in urban planning/design and development, but am not currently working in the field.  Anyway, if you're trying to invalidate armchair quarterbacking, then what exactly is the point of this site?

 

If you think that I was trying to insult you, you are incorrect. 

 

Just as many people have a knee jerk reaction to the idea of density, i think that many people do the same with green space (just in the opposite directio). As we all know, there is good green space and negative green space. Many don't understand that concept.

 

Neighborhood residents (my block club) stated that they did not want it built up to the curb. They wanted green space and for some views of the lake to be preserved.  I can how this makes sense along Church, but it doesn't make sense along Detroit. When I saw the rendering, it looked like it would be more appropriate if it were on Euclid Hts Blvd.

I have an educational and professional background in urban planning/design and development, but am not currently working in the field.  Anyway, if you're trying to invalidate armchair quarterbacking, then what exactly is the point of this site?

 

If you think that I was trying to insult you, you are incorrect. 

 

Just as many people have a knee jerk reaction to the idea of density, i think that many people do the same with green space (just in the opposite directio). As we all know, there is good green space and negative green space. Many don't understand that concept.

 

Neighborhood residents (my block club) stated that they did not want it built up to the curb. They wanted green space and for some views of the lake to be preserved.  I can how this makes sense along Church, but it doesn't make sense along Detroit. When I saw the rendering, it looked like it would be more appropriate if it were on Euclid Hts Blvd.

 

I was replying to MyTwoSense.  Sorry, I should use quotes more often.  It just interrupts the flow of conversation sometimes.

I have an educational and professional background in urban planning/design and development, but am not currently working in the field.  Anyway, if you're trying to invalidate armchair quarterbacking, then what exactly is the point of this site?

 

I can't imagine that it would have been any more difficult to have built the building up to the sidewalk.  Of course, now it would probably require a total redesign to take out the courtyard, but again, it isn't any harder to lay out a building without one.

 

As for the courtyard, I generally consider them streetcar suburban, more so than urban.  This building actually puts me more in mind of something that would be built in Cleveland Hts or Shaker Hts than in a more old school urban neighborhood of Cleveland.  It seems out of place for me to have a courtyard there.

 

Edit: quote added

question? are you an architect, engineer, etc.  The reason I ask is we say these things should be easy, but most things are easier said than done.

 

Just because it has a courtyard doesn't make it suburban.  there are plenty of OLD building in cleveland with courtyards or greenspace.

 

X relax, I'm just trying to get your professional opinion, not offend you.  I thought i remember you were in engineer or something in urban planning.  Thats why I asked those specifc questions.

 

My questions were not meant as an insult but to hear in greater detail why you don't like the design or why you (appear to be) against the residents wishes.

 

For those who live in the neighborhood.  Is agreeing to what the resident want that bad?

 

I wasn't insulted.  You asked about my background, and I answered.  And I can see why you would say that the courtyards can happen in an urban context, I just don't think they are appropo in this particular context.  And I should have put a smiley after the "armchair quarterbacking" comment.  I was making a light jab, in good humor, at the time we all spend here, not snapping at you.  Sorry if it came across like that.

For those who live in the neighborhood.  Is agreeing to what the resident want that bad?

 

^I think that some residents don't understand the outcomes that accompany their preferences. 

 

Overall, I am very happy about this project. Hopefully financing won't be a problem and construction will start soon.

 

West 32nd is rapidly becoming a very dense section of the OC. In a short two block stretch, there are 85 new units of housing proposed/under construction. Add to that the 7 recently constructed/sold out Ohio City Townhomes and about 10 other units that were constructed about 7 years ago... that is a lot of change for the area. 

The density is good, but since I can't picture what West 32nd looks like, is there mixed-use in the area? If there is a lack of it, that would concern me more than whether this new development comes up to the sidewalk. As long as there are corner stores, mid-block cafes, a video store (non-adult) and the occasional restaurant, I'm a candidate to move in.

Currently, there is only one storefront structure between the gay bars at w.29th and w.58th-ish.

 

I'm not too worried about the lack of storefront structures. Increased density is our biggest necessity. Once the density is there, retailers will follow in subsequent projects.

 

 

^So should we give "One Charter Place" its own thread?  It's already provoked some good discussion and I'm sure there will be more....

^If somebody proposes a $15 million project, does it deserve its own thread?

have any of us thought from a neighbors point of view or a developers point of view?

 

its very easy for us to say this from the arm chair position, but how many of us know what really goes on? from the acquisition of the land, to the input of neighbors/neighborhood development corps., or is it something that the developer really likes.

 

w 28th what is your definition of "crappy materials"?  Why do you think Stonebridges earlier phases are bad?

 

I would have to say yes, Stonebridge was built as quickly as possible, for the least amount of money using sub par materials like thin brick.  It was also poorly detailed (check the underside of the overhangs along Riverbed in Phase 2).

But who knows what this Clevland Heights building... I mean Detroit Avenue proposal, will be constructed with.  My overall point is that there is no setback of any building from Detroit Avenue up until probably W79th Street, so why the hell would it be done here?  And who's "Lake" view would be blocked if it were built up to the sidewalk?  I hate to sound like an a-hole but what are these residents smoking?  If they want setbacks and courtyards, live on Clifton (Lakewood) or Hampshire (Cle Hghts).  It just doesn't make any sense what so ever.  I'm with 'X' for once.

Anyone else think that this project has a pretty dumb name?

Yeah.  It sounds like a strip mall named after it's bank tenant.  In actuality it's named after the bank that is financing it I'm guessing.

Interesting concept: sell the naming rights to a project in return for a super low interest rate on a construction loan. I'm thinking about putting an addition onto my house. I'll call it the Key Wing. ;)

i dont care for the name...though im pretty sure charter one will have a hand in financing this...though i do like this project....i'd like to see more of it along the shoreway....good stuff

u could attach a big red obscene Key sign on the front of your house....make sure u keep ur addition away from the street so u have room to put an atm in your front yard

One other kind of odd aspect of the rendering is that the whole thing is raised off the street level...  In the print edition you can see a small flight of maybe 5-6 steps to get up into the courtyard.  A don't hate courtyards in general (as someone else noted there are tons of bldgs like w/courtyards in places like Cle Hts, which is still pretty urban), but the problem I have with this one is that it looks so wide - the rendering has trees in it for crying out loud.  The Cle Hts-style buildings all have relatively narrow courtyards between the wings.  This one seems more like a plaza.  And the brick wall and raised level (if the rendering is accurate) add insult to injury.

I was wondering if the raised courtyard means that there is parking underneath.

have any of us thought from a neighbors point of view or a developers point of view?

 

its very easy for us to say this from the arm chair position, but how many of us know what really goes on? from the acquisition of the land, to the input of neighbors/neighborhood development corps., or is it something that the developer really likes.

 

w 28th what is your definition of "crappy materials"?  Why do you think Stonebridges earlier phases are bad?

 

I would have to say yes, Stonebridge was built as quickly as possible, for the least amount of money using sub par materials like thin brick.  It was also poorly detailed (check the underside of the overhangs along Riverbed in Phase 2).

But who knows what this Clevland Heights building... I mean Detroit Avenue proposal, will be constructed with.  My overall point is that there is no setback of any building from Detroit Avenue up until probably W79th Street, so why the hell would it be done here?  And who's "Lake" view would be blocked if it were built up to the sidewalk?  I hate to sound like an a-hole but what are these residents smoking?  If they want setbacks and courtyards, live on Clifton (Lakewood) or Hampshire (Cle Hghts).  It just doesn't make any sense what so ever.  I'm with 'X' for once.

 

W 28 is that a "professional" observation?  or is it personal aesthetics?  why are the materials "crappy"?  Do other residents of this development share the same sentiment?

It's a professional observation (architect), I'm there several times a week to visit GF, and if one were so inclined they could rip the thin brick from the unfinished bottom of the over hangs.  The comment on the jumbled aesthitic of the earlier phases is also a professional observation, yet is still subjective.

Thin brick is a garbage material.

Thanks!

No problem.  From the looks of it, Stonebridge's fifth phase tower looks to be built a little better, so hopefully they learned their lessons in the earlier phases.  Anyways, back to Ohio City speak...

The Great Lakes Brewery caught me the other day.  I got off the bus at Bridge Ave and W25th and the smell of the brewery was permiating the neighborhood so much that it motivated me to run up to the apartment, grab the GLBC jug and get a fill up of Conway's.  Nothing wrong with living a block from a brewery.

I was in the four buildings that Ellison bought at W. 41st and Lorain last year. The brick building is a beauty, though the interior is in shambles.

As for the wood buildings, the two west of the brick building could not be salvaged, in my opinion. They suffered a major fire a few years ago and are mere shells. There's almost nothing to save.

However, the wood building right on the corner of W. 41st was in decent shape and deserves to be saved. There's an apartment upstairs, and on the ground floor is a nearly intact 1950s-era diner. I'm disappointed Ellison is tearing it down.

I wish the city had already enacted form-based zoning for Lorain Avenue (currently in the works, but unlikely to go before council for another year or two). That would prevent Ellison from building surface parking lots fronting Lorain.

Great, thanks Ellison, one step forward, two steps back.  More surface lots on Lorain.  Another creative way of figuring out parking.  He must have went to the Forest City School of surface lot planning.  Has anyone ever heard of parking on the street?  It's the thing you drive on before you turn into the parking lot, it has spaces on either side.  Even more crazy, you may have to walk a half a block to get to your destination.

I live in the West Virginia Building at W28th and Bridge, it has 20 units and every single person parks on the street.  His business will have what, 4 employees?  Why the f do you need a surface parking lot, especially on a prominent corner of a main thoroughfare.

Ah the hell with it, who cares anymore...

I was in the four buildings that Ellison bought at W. 41st and Lorain last year. The brick building is a beauty, though the interior is in shambles.

As for the wood buildings, the two west of the brick building could not be salvaged, in my opinion. They suffered a major fire a few years ago and are mere shells. There's almost nothing to save.

However, the wood building right on the corner of W. 41st was in decent shape and deserves to be saved. There's an apartment upstairs, and on the ground floor is a nearly intact 1950s-era diner. I'm disappointed Ellison is tearing it down.

I wish the city had already enacted form-based zoning for Lorain Avenue (currently in the works, but unlikely to go before council for another year or two). That would prevent Ellison from building surface parking lots fronting Lorain.

oh no, what will happen to Nick's (Diner)? What a shame! Wasnt some row housing from that area on the OC home tour-it was undergoing renovation

peabody,

No, the diner I'm talking about has been long closed. It's not Nicks. It's on the south side of Lorain, attached to the buildings discussed above at 41st and Lorain.

I got a chance to look at beautiful home on Franklin that is being renovated. This home is the first home on the north side of the street (the closest home to W.25th).  Here are some of the highlights:

-basement media room and game room. A very large bar. The owner bought some old bowling alley lanes and is using the wood as the bar top. 

-huge wine cellar

-four story elevator

-6 bedrooms (two are being used as offices)

-oak paneled walls

-speakers built into the ceiling

-each door in the house was purchased from an antique store

-drinking fountain

-wide screen plasma tv above bath tub

I could go on and on..

 

What really blew me away was the incredible attention to detail. The owner bought so many unique items and integrated them into the house. This is truly a treasure of a home. I hope that the owners put it on the OC home tour someday.

-wide screen plasma tv above bath tub

 

What really blew me away was the incredible attention to detail. The owner bought so many unique items and integrated them into the house. This is truly a treasure of a home. I hope that the owners put it on the OC home tour someday.

 

Now thats what I'm talkin' about.  If I had the space I'd put one in bathroom!

 

I love the OC home tour. 

 

Off topic, but I cannot wait for more reinvestment in hough so that they can have a larger scale home tour as some of those homes are magnificent.

^Do they have one already?  If not, they should get one going!  What about Glenville?

I think it was apart of a block club, I cannot be sure.  I have been in some homes, but mostly the homes of gay men, which have remodeled/renvoated/restored homes.

 

I think alot of those victorian homes should be showcased, some are simply spectacular.

I was in the four buildings that Ellison bought at W. 41st and Lorain last year. The brick building is a beauty, though the interior is in shambles.

As for the wood buildings, the two west of the brick building could not be salvaged, in my opinion. They suffered a major fire a few years ago and are mere shells. There's almost nothing to save.

However, the wood building right on the corner of W. 41st was in decent shape and deserves to be saved. There's an apartment upstairs, and on the ground floor is a nearly intact 1950s-era diner. I'm disappointed Ellison is tearing it down.

I wish the city had already enacted form-based zoning for Lorain Avenue (currently in the works, but unlikely to go before council for another year or two). That would prevent Ellison from building surface parking lots fronting Lorain.

 

Is Ellison tearing it down only for parking? It was my understanding that he wanted to expose the windows on the side of the brick building because of their historical significance. He thinks that brick building is the oldest structure in Ohio City and would like to show it off, as well as add green space to the structure.

 

That said, I wouldn't think he'd be able to get grant money for knockdowns.

 

Lorain has some interesting things going on right around Ellison's project. And you can't beat Nick's for breakfast!

The corner wood building is really just a sliver. I don't think it will take away from the urban fabric that much. Is anything else that fronts Lorain going to be torn down?

Welcome to UO, Weepin!

Hello weepinwillow!  Thanks for the new perspective on this project.  It'd be interesting to know how old the brick building is, because OC is so full of likely candidates for "oldest building".  It's a shame though that the urban fabric has to give away so that this one building can be shown off.  I doubt, though I don't know, that this building was built to stand alone on a block like he is planning.  And why add the greenspace? 

The corner wood building is really just a sliver. I don't think it will take away from the urban fabric that much. Is anything else that fronts Lorain going to be torn down?

 

Welcome to UO, Weepin!

 

I don't know of anything else getting torn down. I do know about something being redeveloped down the street closer to 50th aimed at the arts community in Ohio City and over on Detroit.

 

Thanks. I just happened upon this board, and it looks like there's some great stuff being talked about, and that's long been my contention with Cleveland: great stuff happening and nobody knows about it.

I don't know of anything else getting torn down. I do know about something being redeveloped down the street closer to 50th aimed at the arts community in Ohio City and over on Detroit.

 

Well then, do tell!

Link to read about the Gordon Square Arts District: http://www.dscdo.org/gs_cult.html

Hello weepinwillow!  Thanks for the new perspective on this project.  It'd be interesting to know how old the brick building is, because OC is so full of likely candidates for "oldest building".  It's a shame though that the urban fabric has to give away so that this one building can be shown off.  I doubt, though I don't know, that this building was built to stand alone on a block like he is planning.  And why add the greenspace? 

 

No problem.

 

I can't speak to the plans outside of what I've heard, so I won't speculate as to why he'd add greenspace.

I just know about an arts/food society along with a tech oriented-music company looking to move into the same building on Lorain.

The corner wood building is really just a sliver. I don't think it will take away from the urban fabric that much. Is anything else that fronts Lorain going to be torn down?

 

Yes, the other two wooden buildings just west of the brick building. But those, as I said, are beyond repair (and I don't say that much).

The corner wood building is really just a sliver. I don't think it will take away from the urban fabric that much. Is anything else that fronts Lorain going to be torn down?

 

Yes, the other two wooden buildings just west of the brick building. But those, as I said, are beyond repair (and I don't say that much).

 

yep, those two are eye-sores, and the city had planned on knocking down the entire lot, I believe, before Ellison stepped in.

 

I know the cdc's (Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway) would like to see Lorain moved up the latter in terms of the next OC and DS focus. It will be interesting to see what kinds of effects spill over from the two projects already done (W.25th) and bought up (Gordon Square/Detroit Shoreway). And if they carry over to that area.

 

I'd like to see something done with the vast amounts of used car lots on Lorain. If ever there was an opportunity to build in your parking while improving the street scape, it would seem to be there.

From what I understand, the brick building that Ellison is renovating is an early German structure (early 1800's) designed in a particular German-American style (the name of which escapes me) - it represents a good example of this particular design style practiced by early German immigrants. As weepinwillow mentions, there are windows that will be exposed in the sides of the building after the wooden structures are removed (The wooden structures are in poor shape). When the brick structure was built, only orchards surrounded the building... one of the primary reasons the building is given some 'green' breathing room. It was the original intent of the building to be a stand-alone structure. Ellison desires to return it to this condition. Note that he has done beautiful renovations to a couple structures on Detroit (Snickers storefront building and Cleveland Public Theatre, are two of them). Web: www.dhellison.com

 

The intent is well-informed (and likely will be well executed). I suspect that there may be differing opinions on whether Ellison should return the building to its orchard-like condition or allow it to respect the encroaching urbanity that was a result of the rapid growth of the city in the mid to late 19th century. I am pleased with Ellison's position.

 

Note, D.H. Ellison is a classicist and while the building isn't "classical" in design, it is a beautiful historic structure. Ellison appears to be restoring many of its original features (some of which have been largely lost). It is a jewel.

 

(I was enlightened by this bit of insight by members of his office, this is my best interpretation of the project intent)

I'd like to see something done with the vast amounts of used car lots on Lorain. If ever there was an opportunity to build in your parking while improving the street scape, it would seem to be there.

 

If I recall, the city put in some new restrictions to prevent the spread of used car lots along Lorain Avenue. But that doesn't eradicate the ones already there. The owners of some of those lots are pretty shady guys -- several have faced or are facing charges of drug trafficking, money laundering and others allegedly have ties to organized crime. I ran into the attorney for two brothers who own one of the lots, and when he told me who is clients are, I joked "are you Bruce Cutler?" (John Gotti's attorney). He laughed, "hey, they pay my (attorney) fees."

This D.H. Ellison Company's Web site is a treasure trove of information for Cleveland history newbies like me. I'm reading all about the Cleveland Group plan. Fascinating!!!!

 

If I recall, the city put in some new restrictions to prevent the spread of used car lots along Lorain Avenue. But that doesn't eradicate the ones already there. The owners of some of those lots are pretty shady guys -- several have faced or are facing charges of drug trafficking, money laundering and others allegedly have ties to organized crime. I ran into the attorney for two brothers who own one of the lots, and when he told me who is clients are, I joked "are you Bruce Cutler?" (John Gotti's attorney). He laughed, "hey, they pay my (attorney) fees."

 

Charming.

 

Back to my comment on some business' moving in close to Ellison's property.

 

The food society has the backing of an Ohio group that looks at spreading locally produced, sustainable products and are working with the food society on possible funding sources. It looks like an all but done deal as far as moving onto Lorain.

 

This deal also has the purchasing of a building (one with significant street presence, and a pretty colorful history as well) tied into it. I know that the funding for the purchase has been pulled together and the closing should happen within a week.

 

The development group that is invested in the project is also looking for an artisan food maker to be in the building with the possibility of an attached cafe.

^I like the sound of this project! thanks WW for the info.  Where on Lorain is the building this project is going to close on?  Hope it's got some good visibility and isn't too far from the rest of the OC action.