Ohio City, Tremont developments advance
By Ken Prendergast / January 25, 2024

 

While it’s tough to get financing for larger development projects anywhere these days, it is possible to add a meaningful number of housing units by dividing them up among smaller projects. That’s what Dalad Group of Independence and partner Property Advisors Group (PAG) of Beachwood are doing by pursuing more than 100 apartments on Cleveland’s near-West Side among a mix of new-construction and renovation projects.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/01/25/ohio-city-tremont-developments-advance/

 

2 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Voss redevelopment went in front of the landmarks commission today, everything they said sounded great should be a really good urban experience

Because of the current economy they are looking to come back with a phase 1 that can start this year

 

27,000 SF of PICKLEBALL

St. Ignatius receives $10 million donation; set to begin construction of new academic building

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2024/01/st-ignatius-receives-10-million-donation-set-to-begin-construction-of-new-academic-building.html

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Ohio City, Tremont developments advance
By Ken Prendergast / January 25, 2024

 

While it’s tough to get financing for larger development projects anywhere these days, it is possible to add a meaningful number of housing units by dividing them up among smaller projects. That’s what Dalad Group of Independence and partner Property Advisors Group (PAG) of Beachwood are doing by pursuing more than 100 apartments on Cleveland’s near-West Side among a mix of new-construction and renovation projects.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/01/25/ohio-city-tremont-developments-advance/

 

I know architecture isn't what it used to be when it comes to details and distinctions in design but this literally looks like the two apartment buildings that got announced to be built by the RTA train stations which looks just like The Aura on the Opportunity Corridor .

17 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I know architecture isn't what it used to be when it comes to details and distinctions in design but this literally looks like the two apartment buildings that got announced to be built by the RTA train stations which looks just like The Aura on the Opportunity Corridor .

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes. The original can be seen here:

Edited January 26, 20241 yr by downtownjoe

Someone should lead a campaign to make more adventurous design more acceptable and desired in Northeast Ohio. 

21 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I know architecture isn't what it used to be when it comes to details and distinctions in design but this literally looks like the two apartment buildings that got announced to be built by the RTA train stations which looks just like The Aura on the Opportunity Corridor .

Frankly I'm just pleased to get more brick siding instead of the boxy grey/white/beige paneling that seemed to be popular for the last decade. And it's nice to see all the lots that were there when I lived nearby a few years ago filled in. But maybe some of the enterprising developers on this forum will start doing more embellishments if we ask enough 

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes. The original can be seen here:

They shrunk the balconies too???

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

6 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

They shrunk the balconies too???

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk
 

Those big balconies were awesome. We just can’t help ourselves from f**king every little thing up. 

This is the start to finish of a project once the city planning commission and block clubs gets involved. 
 

https://x.com/dfkenn/status/1750924043883106634?s=46&t=-ApuSKXOhKYOFRRl1ySrew

I'm willing to bet that the change in brick color is due to public feedback, to which I say, "good call".  But I'm also willing to bet that public feedback didn't tell them to cut back the balconies.  For that, we can probably thank "value engineering".

I like the black brick. Everyone can have different opinions. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Youtube video from Channel 5 News on the proposed Lorain Ave improvements

Cleveland Midway Lorain Avenue project gets rolling

 

Another article from Scene

Updated Plans for Lorain Midway Project Draw Praise for Cyclist Safety, Complaints About Elimination of Parking Spots

 

As the latest plans for the Lorain Midway debuted Thursday night for public feedback, reaction was distinctly split between those excited for the protected bike lane and streetscape redo and business owners who voiced complaints about the plan to drastically decrease the number of on-street parking spots.
 

Edited January 29, 20241 yr by Rustbelter

Super exciting project! Frustrated but unsurprised to hear the pushback from people about parking.

From the Scene article -- I was surprised to hear this from the owner of Heart of Gold:

Quote

"Seventy percent of my customer base is from the suburbs," he added. "I get calls all the time: 'We're coming here. Where's your parking lot?' 'Well, we don't have one.' And click."

Edited January 29, 20241 yr by hamish20

21 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

Youtube video from Channel 5 News on the proposed Lorain Ave improvements

Cleveland Midway Lorain Avenue project gets rolling

 

Another article from Scene

Updated Plans for Lorain Midway Project Draw Praise for Cyclist Safety, Complaints About Elimination of Parking Spots

 

As the latest plans for the Lorain Midway debuted Thursday night for public feedback, reaction was distinctly split between those excited for the protected bike lane and streetscape redo and business owners who voiced complaints about the plan to drastically decrease the number of on-street parking spots.
 

 

The people who run Heart of Gold suck so I wouldn't be sad if they lost business from parking. Even though that won't happen. 

Just now, ASP1984 said:

 

The people who run Heart of Gold suck so I wouldn't be sad if they lost business from parking. Even though that won't happen. 

Oh no, I'm bummed to hear that they suck! What's the scoop?

3 minutes ago, hamish20 said:

Oh no, I'm bummed to hear that they suck! What's the scoop?

 

track record of harassing customers

24 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

Youtube video from Channel 5 News on the proposed Lorain Ave improvements

Cleveland Midway Lorain Avenue project gets rolling

 

Another article from Scene

Updated Plans for Lorain Midway Project Draw Praise for Cyclist Safety, Complaints About Elimination of Parking Spots

 

As the latest plans for the Lorain Midway debuted Thursday night for public feedback, reaction was distinctly split between those excited for the protected bike lane and streetscape redo and business owners who voiced complaints about the plan to drastically decrease the number of on-street parking spots.
 

 

A good comment from the Channel 5 video from that one business owner: "We don't have a parking supply problem. we have a parking enforcement problem. Cars will be parked for days with no turnover."

 

I think that is the best solution (maybe easier said than done). But enforcing more 2 hour or 1 hour parking rules to allow for shops to get the traffic they want/need while still allowing for less spaces. Win/win in my book. Residents shouldn't need to park on main thoroughfares like this. That is what the side streets are for.  

On 1/26/2024 at 1:19 PM, coneflower said:

Someone should lead a campaign to make more adventurous design more acceptable and desired in Northeast Ohio. 

 

Lol, do you think designers don't want to. Look at the comment, NIMBY.

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes.

 

31 minutes ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

Lol, do you think designers don't want to. Look at the comment, NIMBY.

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes.

 

 

The tone of this comment seems excessively harsh, I didn't read @coneflower's comment as NIMBY-ish.

1 hour ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

Lol, do you think designers don't want to. Look at the comment, NIMBY.

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes.

 

 

I don't understand where that anger is coming from. I'm saying the same thing as you. 

From my observation of more than 30 years living in Northeast Ohio, the average resident is not a big fan of "crazy" designs. People like things that look more or less "traditional." I'm not sure if it would work, but it'd be cool to see more effort put into getting people excited about the idea of more interesting designs. Maybe a vacant storefront downtown could be used as a place to showcase innovative concepts for what Greater Cleveland could look like visually. 

Edited January 30, 20241 yr by coneflower

1 hour ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

Lol, do you think designers don't want to. Look at the comment, NIMBY.

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes.

 

Completely disagree. If anything we need to start denying developments with basic architecture. They do nothing to contribute to the community fabric and offer little to no character. There is a reason historic buildings are held in such high regard...

One thing to call out is the recent statement from CPC which seems to point to leadership coming down on the committees to stop forcing design/development changes based on all feedback received by public/advisory boards/block clubs/etc.

Edited January 30, 20241 yr by downtownjoe

12 minutes ago, downtownjoe said:

One thing to call out is the recent statement from CPC which seems to point to leadership coming down on the committees to stop forcing design/development changes based on all feedback received by public/advisory boards/block clubs/etc.

 

Interesting, do you know when this came about? Really appreciate the city pushing block club/individual comment to the CDC's - they're the most equipped to dig through comments and find common threads (and judge if it's a small subset of people or their area as a whole). Mods, feel free to move this wherever - I don't mean to derail the thread.

On 1/26/2024 at 10:59 AM, downtownjoe said:

You can thank the local feedback/design review committees for the design changes. The original can be seen here:

Don’t worry, after all this they voted it down. I hate my block club 😒

Just now, Enginerd said:

Don’t worry, after all this they voted it down. I hate my block club 😒

In no way is this not an acceptable use of this lot and then to disapprove after they forced large design changes. I hope they come back with the original design for approval at the committees and Joyce sits in to make sure each member is objective in their feedback. This is just another of example of why community input is needed but can't be 100% followed to build a diverse and growing neighborhood. The loudest critics are usually the ones who don't want to compromise, they just want it to be a single family house instead or to keep their easy parking.

This is so frustrating. 

 

Personally, I prefer walking my dog along gravel, chain link fence, and broken glass. 

7 minutes ago, downtownjoe said:

In no way is this not an acceptable use of this lot and then to disapprove after they forced large design changes. I hope they come back with the original design for approval at the committees and Joyce sits in to make sure each member is objective in their feedback. This is just another of example of why community input is needed but can't be 100% followed to build a diverse and growing neighborhood. The loudest critics are usually the ones who don't want to compromise, they just want it to be a single family house instead or to keep their easy parking.

 

The NIMBY's in OHC are something. The fact a small, tiny but vocal group can kill projects is astounding. These are about the midway:

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

The NIMBY's in OHC are something. The fact a small, tiny but vocal group can kill projects is astounding.

 

Exactly. And the block club only had 20-25 people voting in an area that has to have ten times that many people living in its boundaries.

11 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

Exactly. And the block club only had 20-25 people voting in an area that has to have ten times that many people living in its boundaries.

 

There's a very large group of residents who all avoid going to this block club's meetings specifically because of all of the negativity.  

 

 

1 hour ago, RMB said:

 

There's a very large group of residents who all avoid going to this block club's meetings specifically because of all of the negativity.  

 

 

 

If they all showed up at the same time, they might turn that frown upside down! 🙃 🙂

22 hours ago, coneflower said:

 

I don't understand where that anger is coming from. I'm saying the same thing as you. 

From my observation of more than 30 years living in Northeast Ohio, the average resident is not a big fan of "crazy" designs. People like things that look more or less "traditional." I'm not sure if it would work, but it'd be cool to see more effort put into getting people excited about the idea of more interesting designs. Maybe a vacant storefront downtown could be used as a place to showcase innovative concepts for what Greater Cleveland could look like visually. 

 

It comes from living here and being a designer.

23 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

 

The tone of this comment seems excessively harsh, I didn't read @coneflower's comment as NIMBY-ish.

See multiple comments made after this about NIMBY.

22 hours ago, columbus17 said:

Completely disagree. If anything we need to start denying developments with basic architecture. They do nothing to contribute to the community fabric and offer little to no character. There is a reason historic buildings are held in such high regard...

 

There are some high level basics here to acknowledge. Cost to build and subsequent cost to rent / lease back. They will both be higher than the end user would be willing to accept.

On 1/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, Rustbelter said:

Youtube video from Channel 5 News on the proposed Lorain Ave improvements

Cleveland Midway Lorain Avenue project gets rolling

 

Another article from Scene

Updated Plans for Lorain Midway Project Draw Praise for Cyclist Safety, Complaints About Elimination of Parking Spots

 

As the latest plans for the Lorain Midway debuted Thursday night for public feedback, reaction was distinctly split between those excited for the protected bike lane and streetscape redo and business owners who voiced complaints about the plan to drastically decrease the number of on-street parking spots.
 

I attended in person and it was a very strange event. There was a sign-in sheet, comment cards, and then a bunch of easels set up with small subsections of the overall plan blown up. A couple easels had project designers there to answer questions, but only maybe 10% of the easels had anyone there that could answer questions/field comments. I don't think any project representatives were identified with a nametag or anything, they were kinda just "there". Attendees were asked to write comments on sticky notes and then stick them directly on the plans.

 

In another room there was a mockup on the floor taped out to show lane widths, but it wasn't really super well marked or clear what was going on.

 

My unscientific read of the sticky notes was a pretty even 50/50 split between business owner/parking complaints, and pro-project comments.

 

In general, I really despise that the public has so much say in the overall process (not specific to this project). It gives too much power to people who don't understand the city planning and research that is out there. I don't really have a solution though, since gathering public commentary is tied to acquiring funding. It's also important to have some public oversight into projects so that there isn't abuse of power, but I feel like significantly more often than not we end up with diluted products because of it.

 

The only "good" solution is really for pro-development and well-informed people to get out in force and make themselves heard. It just requires a lot more effort to take an interest and learn than to show up and shout un-informed opinions.

31 minutes ago, dastler said:

I attended in person and it was a very strange event. There was a sign-in sheet, comment cards, and then a bunch of easels set up with small subsections of the overall plan blown up. A couple easels had project designers there to answer questions, but only maybe 10% of the easels had anyone there that could answer questions/field comments. I don't think any project representatives were identified with a nametag or anything, they were kinda just "there". Attendees were asked to write comments on sticky notes and then stick them directly on the plans.

 

This is how they did the Superior Midway reveal too, here's a pic (of that) so others can kinda see what you're describing...they didn't have the widths taped out, but they did have the entire route printed out with where crossings would be and what type of infra there'd be. I've noticed this is kind of in vogue - they did something similar when it came to the CHEERS presentation. It was interesting reading peoole's perspectives on the specifics of the designs though, I'll say that much.

 

 

35 minutes ago, dastler said:

In general, I really despise that the public has so much say in the overall process (not specific to this project). It gives too much power to people who don't understand the city planning and research that is out there. I don't really have a solution though, since gathering public commentary is tied to acquiring funding. It's also important to have some public oversight into projects so that there isn't abuse of power, but I feel like significantly more often than not we end up with diluted products because of it.

 

It's definitely the people with more time and willingness/appetite to put up with meetings that get heard and it definitely doesn't reflect everyone's opinion to say the least. Glad the city is moving away from 20 people tanking projects that benefit thousands of people (including those 20! post build).

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

This is how they did the Superior Midway reveal too, here's a pic (of that) so others can kinda see what you're describing...they didn't have the widths taped out, but they did have the entire route printed out with where crossings would be and what type of infra there'd be. I've noticed this is kind of in vogue - they did something similar when it came to the CHEERS presentation. It was interesting reading peoole's perspectives on the specifics of the designs though, I'll say that much.

 

 

 

It's definitely the people with more time and willingness/appetite to put up with meetings that get heard and it definitely doesn't reflect everyone's opinion to say the least. Glad the city is moving away from 20 people tanking projects that benefit thousands of people (including those 20! post build).

Yep, this is basically the exact same setup.

 

Tbh, I wonder if a better approach to gathering public comments would be to mail everyone in the nearby block clubs a simple pre-paid postcard with an "approve" and  "disapprove" checkbox with some lines for comments.

 

I feel like you would get a much more representative sample than hosting public meetings since you're only getting the most vocal people to attend those.

 

It can't be that expensive either... There's only ~5,000 households in Ohio city. Even at $1/household (which I think is likely too much) that's only $5k for a project that's estimated to cost ~$30M.

@dastler Sorry for the laugh emoji. I meant to hit the Thanks emoji.

4 hours ago, cadmen said:

@dastler Sorry for the laugh emoji. I meant to hit the Thanks emoji.

 

You can change it

Done. Didn't know l could do that. Thanks.

Here is a street in Montreal with a similar layout as what they want to do with Lorain Ave:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/vymgPyWWhyT66jWx8

 

While I hate to say it, I do think the concerns about taking away parking are valid. Ohio City does not have the population density to support a walk-in customer base that can justify a stark decrease in parking.

4 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

Here is a street in Montreal with a similar layout as what they want to do with Lorain Ave:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/vymgPyWWhyT66jWx8

 

While I hate to say it, I do think the concerns about taking away parking are valid. Ohio City does not have the population density to support a walk-in customer base that can justify a stark decrease in parking.

Could the current iteration use some tweaks? Definitely. It'd be great to find budget for a public parking garage/lot, too. Lorain Ave is a hellscape. Walk down Lorain once a week at different times. Sure, during a dinner rush hard to find parking between W 41st and W 44th, a morning coffee/donut run, too but the rest of the time, plenty of spaces. This street has the most upside of any in Cleveland. It deserves a drastic change– one that will certainly make a lot of people scared. If your business is good enough, it will survive. I wish I had the time to do a survey and count the amount of cars parked at various hours of the day over a month span or lack thereof.

Edited February 3, 20241 yr by downtownjoe

16 minutes ago, downtownjoe said:

Could the current iteration use some tweaks? Definitely. It'd be great to find budget for a public parking garage/lot, too. Lorain Ave is a hellscape. Walk down Lorain once a week at different times. Sure, during a dinner rush hard to find parking between W 41st and W 44th, a morning coffee/donut run, too but the rest of the time, plenty of spaces. This street has the most upside of any in Cleveland. It deserves a drastic change– one that will certainly make a lot of people scared. If your business is good enough, it will survive. I wish I had the time to do a survey and count the amount of cars parked at various hours of the day over a month span or lack thereof.

Wouldn't parking surveys be done in the normal course of planning for the bikeway?  I mean it has been a hell of a long process to date.

17 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Wouldn't parking surveys be done in the normal course of planning for the bikeway?  I mean it has been a hell of a long process to date.

Maybe prior to 41st/44st stretch becoming active/revitalized. I am all for this plan and wish it started this year like it was supposed to but my comment is in support of some minor tweaks but not getting hung up on parking being a lot different. (Example: Fulton to West 47th goes from 108 spaces to 17 spaces)

https://www.clevelandmidway.com/lorain

Edited February 3, 20241 yr by downtownjoe

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Wouldn't parking surveys be done in the normal course of planning for the bikeway?  I mean it has been a hell of a long process to date.

Not in my neighborhood (Montgomery County MD).  You have a six-lane arterial road one day and POOF! a four- laner with bikeways the next.  No consultation; no participation; no traffic studies.

 

What may happen to Lorain, if it follows patterns in Wash DC will be:  reduced parking on Lorain will force visiting traffic to park on the side streets, which will hack off the people who live there, who will demand "permit parking only for residents", which will drive away the visitors, which will damage the stores forcing some to close.  The only stores that survive will be ones not particularly useful for the local residents.

 

My wife went to our local "hardware" store and asked for something to kill ants.  They offered her a hammer.

12 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Not in my neighborhood (Montgomery County MD).  You have a six-lane arterial road one day and POOF! a four- laner with bikeways the next.  No consultation; no participation; no traffic studies.

 

What may happen to Lorain, if it follows patterns in Wash DC will be:  reduced parking on Lorain will force visiting traffic to park on the side streets, which will hack off the people who live there, who will demand "permit parking only for residents", which will drive away the visitors, which will damage the stores forcing some to close.  The only stores that survive will be ones not particularly useful for the local residents.

 

My wife went to our local "hardware" store and asked for something to kill ants.  They offered her a hammer.

 

So bike trails ultimately crowd out Raid?

8 hours ago, X said:

 

So bike trails ultimately crowd out Raid?

It's a slippery slope.

 

On 2/3/2024 at 3:09 PM, downtownjoe said:

Sure, during a dinner rush hard to find parking between W 41st and W 44th, a morning coffee/donut run, too but the rest of the time, plenty of spaces. 

What's wild is that (in my anecdotal experience) the street is hardly even at capacity during peak times. Just in the past two weeks, I encountered Lorain's parking capacity at maybe 50-60% utilization on Thursday evening between 5-7PM and Saturday evening between 6-8PM. There were even open spots in front of/within a block of large spots like Forest City Shuffleboard even though the place was clearly packed. Even when the block is parked up in front of Heart of Gold, the two nearest blocks have been primarily empty. Since these businesses opened, I have never had anyone have trouble parking within a 5 minute walk of wherever we are going on Lorain.

 

I agree that street parking is necessary, I just don't agree with the few vocal local businesses that Lorain has or will have a shortage.

Edited February 5, 20241 yr by jws

28 minutes ago, jws said:

What's wild is that (in my anecdotal experience) the street is hardly even at capacity during peak times. Just in the past two weeks, I encountered Lorain's parking capacity at maybe 50-60% utilization on Thursday evening between 5-7PM and Saturday evening between 6-8PM. There were even open spots in front of/within a block of large spots like Forest City Shuffleboard even though the place was clearly packed. Even when the block is parked up in front of Heart of Gold, there two nearest blocks have been primarily empty. Since these businesses opened, I have never had anyone have trouble parking within a 5 minute walk of wherever we are going on Lorain.

 

I agree that street parking is necessary, I just don't agree with the few vocal local businesses that Lorain has or will have a shortage.

100%. Insane take that we should limit bike and pedestrian amenities on Lorain. Cleveland is probably one of the most car friendly cities in the country. 

38 minutes ago, jws said:

What's wild is that (in my anecdotal experience) the street is hardly even at capacity during peak times. Just in the past two weeks, I encountered Lorain's parking capacity at maybe 50-60% utilization on Thursday evening between 5-7PM and Saturday evening between 6-8PM. There were even open spots in front of/within a block of large spots like Forest City Shuffleboard even though the place was clearly packed. Even when the block is parked up in front of Heart of Gold, there two nearest blocks have been primarily empty. Since these businesses opened, I have never had anyone have trouble parking within a 5 minute walk of wherever we are going on Lorain.

 

I agree that street parking is necessary, I just don't agree with the few vocal local businesses that Lorain has or will have a shortage.

 

The Scene article references a parking study and you're pretty close to what they found

 

Quote

And maybe the parking demand isn't as steep as businesses believe it is. Both Davis and Moss engineered a parking study of Lorain last year, to find exactly the ins and outs and how to respond to them.

"The highest occupancy was 47 percent on the weekend," Davis recalled. "During the week, it's always below 30 percent. So while there is a big change in parking, we also know that having open space on the roadway is another thing in itself."

https://www.clevescene.com/news/updated-plans-for-lorain-midway-project-draw-praise-for-cyclist-safety-complaints-about-elimination-of-parking-spots-43588707