it's the hottest part of town as far as restaurants and foot traffic goes

5 hours ago, YABO713 said:

This stinks! Some major damage to a renovation project on Lorain. I presume a car crashed into it overnight

 

 

Just saw that. It was only last week that a car ran into the new townhouse on 47th which is just a little over a block from this.  🤦

 

Maybe there is a restaurateur around who can provide context but ChatGPT says that rent on expensive urban locations can be up to 20% of revenue. Assuming $11,000 a month in rent, then that’d be $55,000 in revenue per month. 

In my experience, most restaurants want to keep rent at between 8% and 12% of sales

 

Royal Docks Brewing comes to Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / March 1, 2024

 

In a couple of months, Stark County-based brewpub chain Royal Docks Brewing Company plans to expand to Cleveland by opening a location in Ohio City’s booming Hingetown neighborhood. It’s a neighborhood with a half-dozen brewpubs already in operation. But with their planned Royal Docks Tied House + Kitchen, the proprietors are confident they can offer something the others don’t.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/01/royal-docks-brewing-comes-to-cleveland/

10 hours ago, YABO713 said:

This stinks! Some major damage to a renovation project on Lorain. I presume a car crashed into it overnight

Yet the business owners and suburbanites blame bikes for ruining businesses. Not the 2 ton piece of metal on wheels that can kill you as you're sipping on coffee at a table. 

7 hours ago, 3231 said:

I'll underscore that I'm no expert in commercial real estate leasing, but I'm curious to see how many small restaurants would be able to pay $11k per month for that space. It is prime real estate, but still seems like a lot. 

Chris Schmitt of OCI released a statement that they tried to sell the building to Karen at a discount before selling it to Harsax. But why didn’t OCI offer a longer lease extension at a lower rent rate before it sold the building? Seems like they had a perfect opportunity to avoid this exact thing from happening. 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Royal Docks Brewing comes to Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / March 1, 2024

 

In a couple of months, Stark County-based brewpub chain Royal Docks Brewing Company plans to expand to Cleveland by opening a location in Ohio City’s booming Hingetown neighborhood. It’s a neighborhood with a half-dozen brewpubs already in operation. But with their planned Royal Docks Tied House + Kitchen, the proprietors are confident they can offer something the others don’t.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/01/royal-docks-brewing-comes-to-cleveland/

 

I'm still surprised nothing is going on across the street in that new retail space that's partially fitted on the inside. This neighborhood has been hot recently you'd think there'd be more urgency for new retail

On 3/1/2024 at 8:34 AM, YABO713 said:

 

I know she's talented and accomplished and has forgotten more about the restaurant business than I'll ever know... 

 

But I think closing the Flying Fig was a mistake. My wife and I went to the Fig probably 10-15x a year and it was always buzzing and the atmosphere was great... When Pearl St. opened I think the menu and atmosphere were significantly more sterile than the Fig, so we stopped going. It's a shame, I loveeeee the location

 

I have nothing to back this up, but I just assumed she got tired of the constant pressures associated with running a full restaurant and wanted to slow down. I can't even begin to imagine all the headaches a bustling restaurant produces on a daily basis. Pure speculation. I miss Flying Fig as well.

 

 

22 hours ago, Jukeboxer said:

Chris Schmitt of OCI released a statement that they tried to sell the building to Karen at a discount before selling it to Harsax. But why didn’t OCI offer a longer lease extension at a lower rent rate before it sold the building? Seems like they had a perfect opportunity to avoid this exact thing from happening. 

How long ago was that sale? I believe OCI has been located down the street on Lorain for about 4 years now. 

 

I would think that if OCI extended her existing lease that it would greatly deter any prospective buyers of the property. So let's say that that there was four years remaining on Karen's lease when the building was sold and she had sought and received a 5-year extension. If I'm Harsax, why would i buy a property for market rate when one of the prime leasable spaces is encumbered by well below market lease for 9 years? 

13 hours ago, 3231 said:

How long ago was that sale? I believe OCI has been located down the street on Lorain for about 4 years now. 

 

I would think that if OCI extended her existing lease that it would greatly deter any prospective buyers of the property. So let's say that that there was four years remaining on Karen's lease when the building was sold and she had sought and received a 5-year extension. If I'm Harsax, why would i buy a property for market rate when one of the prime leasable spaces is encumbered by well below market lease for 9 years? 

The property sold in July 2021 for around $125 PSF. If it wasn’t Harsax I’d expect there would have been a buyer out there willing to pay that price with a long term lease in place at $15 PSF on the first floor. 
 

Pearl Street opened in 2022 meaning Karen opened it under her old Flying Fig lease and OCI sold the building when Flying Fig was still open. If OCI thought Flying Fig having a longer term would depress the value of the building, and OCI wanted to avoid selling the building for less, then it knew this day was coming where the rent would go up significantly.
 

The comments from Chris Schmitt on “we tried to sell to Karen Small for a discount” but OCI weren’t willing to extend her lease for fear of depressing the property value seem fairly inconsistent. 

Could you share your insight on why you think it’s one entities fault for a rent increase from a completely different owner? 

 

Why is a CDC the only entity that can step up and be decent? Or is the expectation different when it’s private ownership? Greed is greed. 

 

On Pearl Street, it really didn’t seem like it was doing too hot long before there was a rent increase. 

I don't think it's OCI's fault for Harsax raising rents, but for OCI to make claims about trying to put Karen in a position to stay in the neighborhood by selling her the building at a discount and keep Flying Fig / Pearl Street open is their attempt to skirt any criticism for not doing more when they owned the building. 

 

The CDC is not a profit motivated entity so I would say expectations are 100% different. They by no means have a monopoly on decency but they are expected to be more decent or at least take other factors beyond profit into account in their decision making. 

On 3/1/2024 at 11:35 AM, cadmen said:

It's not just commercial landlords jacking up the rent. Housing landlords are doing it too. There must be something going on other than greed. Or maybe it IS just greed.

 

Don't want to de-rail the topic, just my two cents as this has been bothering me ever since l read about it. 

 

its just greed —

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-to-launch-task-force-to-crack-down-on-unfair-and-illegal-pricing-amid-rising-inflation/ar-BB1jmHWn

2 hours ago, Jukeboxer said:

I don't think it's OCI's fault for Harsax raising rents, but for OCI to make claims about trying to put Karen in a position to stay in the neighborhood by selling her the building at a discount and keep Flying Fig / Pearl Street open is their attempt to skirt any criticism for not doing more when they owned the building. 

 

The CDC is not a profit motivated entity so I would say expectations are 100% different. They by no means have a monopoly on decency but they are expected to be more decent or at least take other factors beyond profit into account in their decision making. 

But you’re playing the blame game with the wrong entity. If what the CDC said IS in fact true, then there is no blame on them.

 

Blame the landlord. Whoever Harsax is is going to be lucky to get a tenant in there. Karen will be fine, there’s a ton of empty real estate on Lorain and Detroit. 

I think people are overestimating the financial stability of CDC's. Even though it's one of the hottest neighborhoods in town OCI isn't exactly floating in cash: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/341372076 to be able to float super low rent rates/maintain buildings for eternity. 

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

 

its just greed —

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-to-launch-task-force-to-crack-down-on-unfair-and-illegal-pricing-amid-rising-inflation/ar-BB1jmHWn

I'm not happy with Pearl Street closing and having a vacant space, but it seems often times people conflate something personally undesirable to them as necessarily wrong or immoral, or in this case greed. 

 

Again, I don't like Pearl Street closing. I wish the owner would offer lower rents, but they're a business. I would not look at an Ohio City homeowner trying to sell their house for as much as they can or rent their house for as much as possible as greedy. For some reason when it's a wealthy person or a company, doing the exact same thing, it becomes viewed as greed. 

 

That being said. I really hope Pearl Street reopens in some other vacant space that is more affordable. I also hope the current location gets rented out quickly with a place that can make a profit with those high rental rates. If that happens, it's a good sign for the neighborhood. 

does anyone know if the new price point is unreasonable? I don't think we should have an expectation that a building owner should be obligated to charge less than market rate to a business (who is also in it to make money) who is renting their space.  I'd feel differently if they were jacking up the price solely to force Pearl Street out, but i'm not sure thats in evidence. 

2 hours ago, Milkshake1 said:

I'm not happy with Pearl Street closing and having a vacant space, but it seems often times people conflate something personally undesirable to them as necessarily wrong or immoral, or in this case greed. 

 

Again, I don't like Pearl Street closing. I wish the owner would offer lower rents, but they're a business. I would not look at an Ohio City homeowner trying to sell their house for as much as they can or rent their house for as much as possible as greedy. For some reason when it's a wealthy person or a company, doing the exact same thing, it becomes viewed as greed. 

 

That being said. I really hope Pearl Street reopens in some other vacant space that is more affordable. I also hope the current location gets rented out quickly with a place that can make a profit with those high rental rates. If that happens, it's a good sign for the neighborhood. 

 

oh i agree. i was just replying to a more general comment about inflation with a more genral response, not about the fig/pearl specifically.

 

just a guess, but reading what has been posted it sounds more like the fig/pearl propriator used the new owner and jacked up rent as a good time to step away. im sure there is more to it — and something else will step in, its about the very best sited spot in town. i liked the flying fig — i think everyone did — that had a deserved nice long run. i always used to meet my fam and friends there or glbc whenever i flew back. 

I'm sure there are economic metrics that indicate what a paticular property can rent for based on square footage and (city) location. But that shouldn't be the only metric. 

 

In the first place if it's deemed desirable that a livable, healthy retail environment should have room for local start-ups and small business as well as national chains then there has to be a mechanism for small to compete with large. Whether it's small business grants or simply the owner not taking the renter for every last penny if we don't want to live in a world of cheap big box retailers society has to make sacrifices. 

 

If we value independents (and we say we do) then we have to find a way for them to survive. Otherwise we'll live in a world of Wallmarts and McDonalds. Modern America is already sterile enough. Do we really want more?

7 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

does anyone know if the new price point is unreasonable? I don't think we should have an expectation that a building owner should be obligated to charge less than market rate to a business (who is also in it to make money) who is renting their space.  I'd feel differently if they were jacking up the price solely to force Pearl Street out, but i'm not sure thats in evidence. 

 

"Reasonable" would depend on a lot of things, but one thing worth doing is looking around on Loopnet or Cresco to see what else is out there.  They appear to be asking pretty much top of market rents, though not outrageously high.  Of course, retail leases are much more complex and variable than residential, so what is included can be much more difficult to parse in order to make and apples to apples comparison.

yeah and outside of downtown, if that area isnt among top of the market retail rents locally these days i dk what is.

 

also, and i hate to be hardcore harsh, but i read the fig/pearl benefitted from under the market rent for a long, long time when the building was owned by a non-profit before it was sold. so cant be too hard on the new building owner here. hopefully they get someone else local in soon and not a bank branch or chain. 👍

Isn't there also a question of fairness? Who gets to decide who gets cheaper rent? 

I think this topic has been discussed at nauseum! Has anyone seen the latest progress of the w.44th and Apple Ave townhomes that are under construction lately? These are located right next to the Sherwin Williams store on w.44th & Lorain Ave.

While we are looking at the reasonableness or fairness of the rent, why don't we look at the reasonableness or fairness of the prices that upscale restaurants in that neighborhood charge for their food?  Even if the food good, is it reasonable or fair for a restaurant to charge $9 for an order of fries, $12 for carrots or $6 for coffee?  Should those prices have been lower because rent was below market?  Rent is a commodity like anything else:  supply and demand in a free economy.  There are very commercial spaces in walkable neighborhoods like Ohio City so the rents are going to be higher.  People travel from all over the area for the experience of eating in that neighborhood and are willing to pay those higher prices.  What about the $12 parking on weekends?   Rents will increase even further in a neighborhood that is on the rise like Ohio City especially with IBP coming soon.  If the market can't bear the rent the new landlord will charge, the price will come down because the new owner still has to pay the mortgage payment, taxes, etc.  There are spaces on Lorain and elsewhere in the neighborhood where rents are more affordable. When a non-profit sells a building like this, it can invest the proceeds in another up-and-coming area and then offer below market rent for an aspiring chef or business.   This is called progress.

21 hours ago, cadmen said:

I'm sure there are economic metrics that indicate what a paticular property can rent for based on square footage and (city) location. But that shouldn't be the only metric. 

 

In the first place if it's deemed desirable that a livable, healthy retail environment should have room for local start-ups and small business as well as national chains then there has to be a mechanism for small to compete with large. Whether it's small business grants or simply the owner not taking the renter for every last penny if we don't want to live in a world of cheap big box retailers society has to make sacrifices. 

 

If we value independents (and we say we do) then we have to find a way for them to survive. Otherwise we'll live in a world of Wallmarts and McDonalds. Modern America is already sterile enough. Do we really want more?

The way to ensure independents survive is to patronize them. I'm not trying to be flippant. But that's it. I personally value independents. I mostly avoid chains and could save a lot more money by utilizing chains more. But value is subjective. I get more value out of independents. Others get more value out of chains. 

 

If we end up living in a world of cheap big box retailers it's because people value them more than they value independents. That's not us on this forum, but we're a minority I think. I do not want more chains, particularly in Ohio City. But I believe that should be for consumers to decide. I don't think the playing field should be rigged in favor of small business or chains.

 

What I am concerned of is there are instances where chains get subsidies an independent business does not. (I do not have local examples. I'm speaking nationally) If a Starbucks were to end up where Flying Fig was and they get so much as a penny's worth of subsidy, I'd be furious. It's hard enough for small businesses to survive.

As someone who’s lived in the neighborhood for almost a decade now it’s been interesting to see the changes. The streets seem safer and there are currently 15 homes going up within a block- going for over twice the price when I moved in (I felt it was a gamble at that time). New apartments keep filling up without issue. 
 

And yet look around and see the majority of new retail space is still empty. Many of the best restaurants have closed and those on the horizon all seem to be chains or “concepts” from developers. Compared to similar neighborhoods in peer cities the dining scene feels rough. 
 

I’m a regular customer at Pearl Street and I will say the space is big and customers seem sparse. But it hurts. The crazy thing is the food is totally on trend with cool spots in big cities. 
 

There is a monster built in advantage for these new chains popping up across the neighborhood. There needs to be a way to support independents or there won’t be any left. 
 

 

 

The built in advantage that chains have is deep (corporate) pockets. Which allows them to pay higher rent. Of course most landlords would prefer to rent their space at the higher rate which inevitably makes it very difficult for an independent business to open or stay open. Yes, that's American capitalism. We appreciate capitalism for the most part. For the most part, and that's the rub. Because many of us also appreciate the ambiance of these cool and organic neighborhoods. And what sets them apart is often the retail mix. Lose the mix - lose the charm - lose the neighborhood.

 

So the conundrum is how do we follow two masters? Finding that answer is an endless battle. In a small way its like fighting for the soul of America. We've pretty much lost the independant corner store to the impersonal corporate giant. We're at the point where we sell what's left of our remaining soul to save a couple of bucks. Mercantilism in its purest form minus the human element.

There has to be a thread for discussions like this on here somewhere.

I agree 100% This discussion should be in a political forum and certainly not this one.

i see they are talking about a variance for an elevator and penthouse addition for 1865 w22nd st right now -- 👍

 

 

 

Board of Building Standards & Appeals Meeting March 13, 2024

 

https://www.youtube.com/live/vTNmEq6pRAQ?si=dfgTOkaV5Ridb4fR

Couldn’t find any specific threads on this, but perhaps we might need one soon with this development… looks like the ‘Low Line Park’ dubbed by Chris Ronayne is close to becoming a reality:

 

I know they'll secure it, but there's a LOT of very important infrastructure under there. I worked last bridge tour and it was interesting learning about what all is under there...

^ Is this utilities stuff or ‘Denver Airport’ 😉 kind of stuff?? 

2 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Is this utilities stuff or ‘Denver Airport’ 😉 kind of stuff?? 

 

lol missing the murals though :(

 

But one of the Public Works guys was like oh yeah, that big ol conduit carries power to xyz neighborhoods, that there's telecom for x and y - pretty much when they closed it down it turned into a big infrastructure opportunity.

its fine to open it up as a low line as long as they dont put too much $ into it — or at least leave room in there for the obvious future return of rail transit lines.

5 hours ago, mrnyc said:

its fine to open it up as a low line as long as they dont put too much $ into it — or at least leave room in there for the obvious future return of rail transit lines.

My pie-in-the-sky idea would be to connect the CSU BRT and the Health Line (Lakewood to Public Square to University Circle) via streetcar and open up the low line for its initial purpose…. One can dream, right?

if we're talking wishful thinking would love if they ran an RTA rail line over the bridge and added a stop right at that corner. Probably incredibly unfeasible but one can dream lol 

A new topic on the Detroit-Superior Bridge project is open here...

 

 

I don’t live at the quarter anymore so I didn’t get a good look but coming down Detroit yesterday I saw something is going in next to CF bank

19 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

I don’t live at the quarter anymore so I didn’t get a good look but coming down Detroit yesterday I saw something is going in next to CF bank

I think Beet Jar is moving over from 29th?

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

I think Beet Jar is moving over from 29th?

Oh that might make sense, because I think owners larder are opening a market in or around that spot

Edited March 15, 20241 yr by BoomerangCleRes

On 2/15/2024 at 5:02 AM, Growth Mindset said:

There's an irony in General Motors giving a grant to make an urban space more pedestrian friendly.

It’s greenwashing 

100%   - Yep, this gift isn't to Cleveland, but GM to itself.  It's an over-hyped nothing-burger. It's the same amount of money they lose each time they crash-test a single SUV into a wall.

 

Edited March 16, 20241 yr by ExPatClevGuy

On 3/14/2024 at 7:51 PM, BoomerangCleRes said:

Oh that might make sense, because I think owners larder are opening a market in or around that spot

I think Beet Jar will be across the street where that place called "The Grocery" was. I walked by the place next to CF this morning and it will be some sort of health clinic type of place called Forza. 

Fridrich Bicycle, Oldest Bike Shop in Cleveland, to Close This Year

 

Longtime business closing. Looks like some developers are in pursuit of the property, which is a potentially good thing. A development that incorporates this building and the adjacent empty lots to the east would be ideal.

 

28 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

Fridrich Bicycle, Oldest Bike Shop in Cleveland, to Close This Year

 

Longtime business closing. Looks like some developers are in pursuit of the property, which is a potentially good thing. A development that incorporates this building and the adjacent empty lots to the east would be ideal.

 

As long as the original structure still stands I'm fine with it. 

Check it out, you urban planners you … nice little sliver available:

 

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Detroit-Ave-Cleveland-OH-44102/104338010_zpid/

32 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

Check it out, you urban planners you …

Weird lot....  what are the implications of cutting off access to these roll up doors on the neighboring building?  200k my lord.

Looks like they were asking for 250k when they put it up six months ago. Wonder how far the price will drop.