Thanks KJP. I've been lurking here for a while, and decided to go for a swim. It appears that these are not hostile waters.

 

 

Welcome to forum, ohiocitybob.

These waters here are much less hostile then those in the yahoo group, too.

ocbob-you have a good argument about the MODA, they will never see the end of the wrath if they go in there. it won't be worth the hassle and legal fees. They are probably lucky to have the alt press offer at all and should consider it seriously. I think we are seeing over and over again that nightclubs and residential are not mixing well in Cleveland.  The customers that come in and tear up the place for a few hours do not contribute to the community as much as the residents who are in this for the long haul do-so it is unfortunate that they are expected to tolerate this.  I thought the kiddie thing was a really cool idea, but agree the cost would be prohibitive for that kind of venture. As an urban step parent, I have known the agony of having to go to the suburbs sometimes to entertain a child (now too big for kid stuff anymore). 

It would interesting if a "club district" were formed.  Where people can party and just leave.

Like the Flats used to be?

Like the Flats used to be?

 

NO!  NO!  NO! 

 

Abandoned warehouse away from residential.  Yet in this day and age where people are coming back to cities, I doubt any neighborhood would want a "club" district near or in it.

Abandoned warehouse away from residential.

 

Like the Flats used to be?

^Exactly.  In that sense, the Flats worked pretty well.  Would be great if we could replicated it somewhere less viable for future housing, like the WHD...oops.

Cimperman wants Hush/Heaven & Earth to move downtown or St. Clair/Superior. I can see the area in the East 20s, north of St. Clair but south of the tracks, being a good nightclub district.

Cimperman wants Hush/Heaven & Earth to move downtown or St. Clair/Superior. I can see the area in the East 20s, north of St. Clair but south of the tracks, being a good nightclub district.

 

I was thinking the same exact thing. Just far enough away from the Avenue District.

That would follow the trend of gay clubs "pioneering" an area (there are/have been several in the East 20s along St. Clair), to eventually have the "edgier" mixed nightlife following a few years after.

North of St. Clair is pretty remote from residential, but there are few vacancies, as most of the buildings there are functioning industrial spaces. On St. Clair, you're directly buttressing a residential neighborhood. And as a resident of said neighborhood, I no more want a potential trouble spot around the corner than do the people living in proximity to the Moda space. There is already a bar scene brewing up, arguably with a trouble spot in the Baby Grand (where a homicide occurred last year), and further agglomerating bars along St. Clair seems like it would raise the chance of incidental crimes ... in the neighborhood with the lowest incidence of violent crime in city limits.

 

Frankly, I don't think changing the location of a potentially trouble-inducing club has much benefit ... it just shifts the trouble to another population.

east 20th has it's problems already with the Men's shelter over on lakeside (I'm sure building owners and business operators in the area were pleased by that move).

 

I know I've got a soup kitchen operating close to my building that I'd pay to have closed down and moved to another area, as would probably many of the residents living in and around the area would. I'll trade you my soup kitchen for your Heaven and Earth bar and call it a day. At least I know the operator of H&E will have an interest in keeping his patrons from committing crimes around his establishment.

 

Cimperman wants Hush/Heaven & Earth to move downtown or St. Clair/Superior. I can see the area in the East 20s, north of St. Clair but south of the tracks, being a good nightclub district.

 

1. if are this is so appropriate for a club, why was Hustler never proposed to go there? Does Larry Flynt's money or muckraking mean more to the Councilman than the constituents in the Flats that were sold the dream their neighborhood would only get better( and don't buy the poorly formulated argument that the ONLY way to make FEB move forward was to let this Flint do business where ever he pleased-on the tow path, in a residentail neighborhood- and have a city change the law for him to do so)....

2. When did Councilman meet with the residents and businesses on the near east side to see how they feel about H&E? Or are they not as politically active or affluent as OC?

 

Hush/H&E has a good record of no criminal incidents in or outside the club. The Ohio City neighborhood simply had enough of nightclubs after Moda. It wasn't because Hush/H&E were bad guys.

 

There is also the area just east of the Inner Belt along Hamilton, etc. in the area of the Cleveland Mounted Police stables. I seem to recall there are vacancies in some of those warehouses over there.

 

EDIT: This was in response to 8Shades and Weepinwillow

^ regarding complaints,the city said the same thing about Hustler at public meetings. The information I received from the police was a very different story. While the city may not have felt allegations of beatings, drug dealing, rape (and more) are serious, the uptight residents seemed to take issue with this type of element moving closer. The sad thing is this is described as a "quiet" club.  I am not saying H&E is a problem, but I would need to see the police run sheet myself. Furthermore, keep in mind like Hustler, H&E is very isolated. There are few people to make complaints other than the victims themselves. Once it is under the microscope of residents that live steps away, things could really be different.

Most of us felt bad for the H&E/Hush Nightclub guys. Someone gave them bad advice when they attempted to sneak the liquor permit transfer past the community. I don't think this was their idea. These guys promised the local CDC, in no uncertain terms, that if they were to move forward with their business plan, they would cooperate in a promised presentation to the overall community. They must now accept responsibility for this most critical error, but someone advised them how to best sneak the liquor permit transfer through under the radar. Fortunately for us, Joe Cimperman was there to intercept this transfer and bring it before the community. Also, I heard Joe Cimperman myself tell the club owners that he wanted to help them locate on the West Bank of the Flats. The possibility of a location in the St. Clair/Superior area was discussed as a secondary option. Thus, a public meeting there would not take place unless a specific site was selected. The Rialto/Moda site was the actual destination on the permit transfer application. KJP hit the nail on the head in the statement that we had enough of nightclubs after Moda, especially the large venue type. Even the popular Garage Bar has little to no impact on the residential community when their bar patrons hit the streets at bar closing time. About 25 guys on motorcycles make a little noise on their way out of the neighborhood, but this is nothing compared to 500 people flooding the streets when a large club like Moda discharges its contents onto W.25th at 2:30 am. The current bar/restaurant mix on W.25th seems to work in harmony with the residential community, who is prepared a little noise that accompanies urban living. Moda exceeded those limits beyond any reasonable expectations, and there is a significant risk that another nightclub there could result in the same disruption to both the residential and business community.

My understanding is that the bad advice given to H&E/Hush came from three people: Councilman Santiago, former council clerk and councilwoman Emily Lipovan and possibly Rosemary Vinci.

No comment!

Vinci is quite the NIMBY in Duck Island, but more than happy to stick LULU's in other people's backyards!

Vinci is quite the NIMBY in Duck Island, but more than happy to stick LULU's in other people's backyards!

 

okay, I know NIMBY and I know BANANA, but LULU?

Locally Unwanted Land Use

^Was Vinci one of the vocal Duck Island objectors to the Columbus road Riverview Hope VI reconfiguration? 

 

What ever became of the re-reconfigured project?

My understanding is that the bad advice given to H&E/Hush came from three people: Councilman Santiago, former council clerk and councilwoman Emily Lipovan and possibly Rosemary Vinci.

agree but I would cast my net wider in my guesses.

^Was Vinci one of the vocal Duck Island objectors to the Columbus road Riverview Hope VI reconfiguration? 

 

What ever became of the re-reconfigured project?

 

Good question.

Locally Unwanted Land Use

 

Actually I believe it's Locally Undesirable Land Usage, but same idea.  Anyways, what I am really wondering is what is BANANA, or is it just pope being popp?

The Hope 6 proposal for Columbus Road, near Duck Island and over the RTA tracks, was effectively shot down by the community. It is now a dead deal, along with the proposals of other sites in Ohio City. CMHA went with scattered sites throughout the west side for the replacement 81 units that were torn down behind Riverview (the CMHA low rise buildings). These are mostly CHN single family homes.

^Including the Church Ave/W. 28th segment?  I thought that was still a go (but severely delayed).  There has been so little communication about this project.  Very disappointing.

^^Thank god, we can all enjoy the glorious ambience of Duck Island and sample the fine wares of Abbey Market without enduring an increase in people or property values. :roll: 

Anyways, what I am really wondering is what is BANANA, or is it just pope being popp?

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything

let's not forget idiotic...I'll die inside once that is constructed!

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything

 

Or, Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone. Either way works.

Duck Island is a strange place. On the one hand, it seems like an interresting little nieghborhood that is situated off the beaten path. On the other hand, I feel like when I go through there that grandma with a corn cob pipe is going to fire her shotgun at me for sticking my nose in their business.

I agree. It has a taint on it. too bad b/c location wise it has so much potential.

Thank the gods for Urban Ohio where you can hear a reasonable discussion of issues without personal attacks. You guys rock

okay maybe it's just that I like what you are saying :-)  never heard BANANA before

Was at a meeting yesterday and the Hush guys said they had been approached to work out their club at many locations over past week but they were not giving up yet

^Are the owners not giving up on Moda, or not giving up on finding another location?  My guess is they are continuing to get poor behind the scenes advice. Word on this street is,the west flats location (apparently the city of Cleveland's new trash receptacle for crumby businesses) is not really an option based on the last known opinion of the owner of the proposed location. I think it was more wishful thinking. Certainly the flats location I heard was proposed is better than Moda, but I too hope to expand to additional amenities besides the trashy night club model .  I remember when the strip club thing was going on the area N. of Hamilton ave was an area of possibility  although it may have only been considered as a diversion to placeate affected residents in the flats. If it is far enough north it may not interfere with the surrounding neighborhoods. Club Mega on Scranton Peninsula has sat vacant for ages. Not sure if that is on the table this go around.

It may be too soon to tell regarding the Hush proposal. Clearly the objection was made to keep the liquor license from happening but the Hush people sound like they are not aggressively looking for other options yet. Which is too bad on many levels. I agree, bad behind the scenes advice or bad judgment on their part. I guess I don't understand why all these kinds of large clubs have to be grouped in one place (now west flats). I mean, The Wst Flats is a viable neighborhood too and the same good mix of business, entertainment and service industries should apply no? 

I agree. I think we are at capacity with certain types of venues in the flats and I do not think OC has any capacity for this at this time.  I am not saying what we have needs to go, except for Mirage, with all shootings and other issues. We need more places people want to go a few nights a week, not just for bachelor parties. The days should be gone where people come here only to to pimp, whore, puke and sin. Hey I live with a little of that, but lets not increase it when we know it did not work before. Why even bother bringing residential if it will continue to be the prime home for these type of businesses?  This whole Hush/Moda thing scares the crap out of me. As our region is challenged by crime,declining population, and poverty issues, what is a 500-700  capacity club going to need to do to get people in? This is not  Vegas. This is a pub, corner bar town. Just how are you going to fill that place 3 nights week-$10 all you can drink specials or 18 and up nights? While I do not go to nightclubs...I do not think there has been a successful one I have heard of since living in the area. Who is footing all the legal bills and moving cost of this:-Wolstein or the City?

I've been told that the City offered no special favors to Heaven and Earth. Maybe someone with more knowledge about the Flats can add to our discussion re Wolstein or anyone else. !  I like a little bit of 'pimp, whore, puke and sin' (never quite heard it like that before LOL) but yeah, we really are a small venue city. I did not live here during the heyday of the Flats but didn't the formula work for a while?

I was at a planning commission meeting this summer and Zack Reed was essentially saying that the owner of H&E was offered something like $40,000 for his business and objected that the city was rolling out the red carpet for Larry Flint-including changing zoning.  He indicated unless a commitment was made by the city to ensure H&E was taken care of, he would not support the red light district (and life as we know it would end  :roll:). It was not clear what party would take care of H&E, the city or Wolstein. It was framed in the context of the city giving preference based on race for Flint over the African American H&E owner.  There was some muttering and general foolishness and then Zack Reed, the final opposer ,changed his mind and supported the red light district. Of course it was all a dog and pony show for the public.  This was  a done deal before we schmo's had any knowledge. Just like everyone in city govt'  knew about H&E before the neighborhood did. If I knew how, I would put the whole thing on You Tube as I ordered a CD for posterity (still too painful to watch)

omg that is very enlightening and aggravating -- and I guess not surprising! So does this mean Larry Flint won? I say get someone to do the YouTube so you don't have to watch but we can!

Bringing zing to West Side Market's Old World nature

West Side Market gets jolt of cool when these vendors man their stands

Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Debbi Snook

Plain Dealer Reporter

In a mere four years, the West Side Market building will turn 100. That's 15 years older than Terminal Tower, 18 more than Severance Hall.

 

The idea of a public market might seem antiquated if cities across the country -- New York, Philadelphia, Columbus, among them -- weren't busy reviving theirs. Public markets do more than sell food: They preserve and blend cultures, provide jobs and shape our identity and pride.

 

I've been to a public market conference; other cities look at Cleveland with market envy.

 

Our tower of vaulted ceilings, white ceramic tiles and windowed coolers may no longer be the center of food commerce in the city, but it still offers competitive prices, ethnic rarities and an increasing number of specialty foods.

 

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

I was all set to try the crepes until I read...

 

He thinks of leaving Cleveland someday and living with friends in Seattle.

 

Otherwise, great article.

 

^Yeah, it was like her editor read it and sent it back because all PD articles must have, at minimum, one dig on the city of Cleveland.

Nice article about a Cleve institution -- luv the WSM... Now, if we could convince the City to stop those weird, quirky hours/days, and have the joint stay open at least 6 days per week (sans Sunday, perhaps) and be open from 8-9a til 6-7p, then WSM will really be great.

I don't have much of a problem with their hours right now.  7-6 is better than you were asking for (for Friday and Saturday at least).  Of course I'd like to see it open Tuesday and Thursday as well, and for a couple more hours during the week, but if it helps them cut costs while keeping a good customer base to have the hours they currently have, then I'm all for it.

I don't have much of a problem with their hours right now.  7-6 is better than you were asking for (for Friday and Saturday at least).  Of course I'd like to see it open Tuesday and Thursday as well, and for a couple more hours during the week, but if it helps them cut costs while keeping a good customer base to have the hours they currently have, then I'm all for it.

 

iirc, the original hours of WSM complemented the old Central Market, which was open on the other days.  unfortunately, after the central market disappeared, no major changes were made to the WSM days of operation.

 

it seems that they have to balance the vendors interests as well.  i'm not sure that many of them would want to be open more days or hours.

 

even with the existing extended hours, many of the stands seem to close around 3 (or at an unpredictable schedule), so if you really want something you have to be there before 1, at least on a weekday.

yeah the central market seemed bigger to me, and at that point the westside market was the stepchild.

 

I too wish the hours were longer, but it appears they get a lot of early morning shoppers, especially commercial and restaurant chefs.  I know I've seen staff from One Walnut, Table 45 and The Ritz there at the crack of dawn.

What's up with the old Middle East Foods space on W25th just north of the WSM- any action there?  Any rumors?  Any thoughts?