Also, the vendors at WSM can shut down for the day when they sell out their wares. For the place to stay open longer hours (which I support), that means vendors who haven't sold out their stuff would have more time to sell it. But those who have sold out would have to bring out more merchandise to stay open for a longer day. But I've noticed that some of the food at WSM gets a little funky (steaks start getting dark, pastries get rock hard, etc) by late afternoon anyway.

What's up with the old Middle East Foods space on W25th just north of the WSM- any action there?  Any rumors?  Any thoughts?

 

Nothing is up that I know of.

Also, the vendors at WSM can shut down for the day when they sell out their wares. For the place to stay open longer hours (which I support), that means vendors who haven't sold out their stuff would have more time to sell it. But those who have sold out would have to bring out more merchandise to stay open for a longer day. But I've noticed that some of the food at WSM gets a little funky (steaks start getting dark, pastries get rock hard, etc) by late afternoon anyway.

 

And so it goes when you have a market selling fresh food.  If people want late night or 24-hour convenience, then they'll have to go to the supermarket and settle for buying what they sell.  You can't have it both ways.

Also, the vendors at WSM can shut down for the day when they sell out their wares. For the place to stay open longer hours (which I support), that means vendors who haven't sold out their stuff would have more time to sell it. But those who have sold out would have to bring out more merchandise to stay open for a longer day. But I've noticed that some of the food at WSM gets a little funky (steaks start getting dark, pastries get rock hard, etc) by late afternoon anyway.

 

I guess thats why the meats/fish place close earlier but the fruit etc. places are open longer, their products dont go bad as quickly.  I wonder if they are catering to businesses/Chefs more in the early morning.

 

I remember that the central markets fruits/veggies, etc alwasy seems to be overstocked and open late

What's up with the old Middle East Foods space on W25th just north of the WSM- any action there?  Any rumors?  Any thoughts?

 

Nothing is up that I know of.

sssssssssh. don't jinx it.

yeah the central market seemed bigger to me, and at that point the westside market was the stepchild.

 

I too wish the hours were longer, but it appears they get a lot of early morning shoppers, especially commercial and restaurant chefs.  I know I've seen staff from One Walnut, Table 45 and The Ritz there at the crack of dawn.

I have seen a lot of Cleveland chefs and restaurant owners earlier in the AM as well. Even though I work right across the street I am sometimes too swamped to even run over during lunch to grab some groceries.I wish they stayed open later. My mojo is way out of wack if I do not get to the market at least two times a week. I don't like grocery store food. As a side note the meat should remain fresh (they have refridgeration!) but meat can oxidize when exposed to air instead of being sealed in plastic (and in some case chemically treated). Baked goods, made without preservatives can go stale very quickly.

The vendors like their hours. They don't want to be forced to stay open later.

^And here I thought it was about the convenience of the customers...

^And here I thought it was about the convenience of the customers...

 

Sometimes you get more customers by being hard to get.. not sure if that's true here for the market, but it could be.

it's funny/sad how the WSM is packed on saturdays but on W 25th you'd have no idea (ESPECIALLY during winter).  That damn parking lot hurts the street activity but then again, that's probably what convinces a lot of people to drive into the city... 

it's funny/sad how the WSM is packed on saturdays but on W 25th you'd have no idea (ESPECIALLY during winter).  That damn parking lot hurts the street activity but then again, that's probably what convinces a lot of people to drive into the city... 

 

Honestly I think its more of a hindrance.  Its not that big of a lot.  I've taken the kids there with me on a Saturday and I've been in and out, and on my way back to the train while some people are looking for parking/circling the block.

Many of the people that go to the market never make it to W. 25th St. because of the parking lot and the location of the rapid station.

Many of the people that go to the market never make it to W. 25th St. because of the parking lot and the location of the rapid station.

 

HUH???  Can you explain that to me.  I totally do not understand.  I go because I can take the train and not worry about parking.

Let me place that back in context and see if it clears it up a bit.

 

it's funny/sad how the WSM is packed on saturdays but on W 25th you'd have no idea (ESPECIALLY during winter).

 

Many of the people that go to the market never make it to W. 25th St. because of the parking lot and the location of the rapid station.

no.  I still don't understand.  How could the rapid be a problem?

The front doors of the WSM could be more welcoming, but that is really the only complaint I have

MTS, what they're saying is that for visitors to WSM who DRIVE and use the parking lot (especially on amateur days aka Saturday) they tend to park, walk into the market - get what they're after and go back to their cars without stepping outside of the market itself.

no.  I still don't understand.  How could the rapid be a problem?

 

I think they're insinuating the convienence of the RTA and parking lot deters people away from walking up and down w25th, particularly when its cold.

 

I mean, I don't know where people are out and about walking around when its cold but W25th looks pretty busy during warm weather days (or even not freezing days).  And even when its cold, there are lots of people around...just not walking outside exploring.

Doooooooooooooooooooh.  Thank you.  I totally didn't get that.  Damn.  First, not remember the blizzard, now this.  I fee like im one step away from a rocking chair and a evil pet cat.  I've gone all stupid without my coffee.

.

.

 

 

this is who i would like to see in the middle eastern market

http://www.alescifoods.com/page.aboutus

 

If I had one wish and could only use it on ohio city...it would be the Riverview apts gone. 

 

I would definitely be on board with Alescis in that space.  Would be a nice complement to the German and Greek import stores already in the hood.  Seriosuly, anyone know what's up with that space?  It's been vacant for a few years now.

 

As for Riverview: it's hideous, but my one wish would be for that stupid hill to be stabilized so something like the old Hope IV plan by Goody Clancy could be built.  I think that would mitigate the tower's ugliness quite a bit and improve W25 in so many, many ways.

 

.

Try to build on a river hillside sometime in Northeast Ohio. You will encounter shale. In addition to being a very soft stone, it is also very porous through which water seeps, sometimes in surprisingly large volumes. Yes, we had buildings on those slopes. They aren't there now because they suffered distorted foundations, even though they supported smaller clapboard-style buildings. If you want to question the validity of how stable the hillside is, please take a look at Franklin Avenue where it goes down the hill from West 25th to Columbus Road. Perhaps you think that slope failure was similarly contrived by Ohio City residents to get the road closed? Think first. Then write.

it seems that if the city / community / developers thought this area was important (which it is, imo), they would be looking for federal funds to help stabilize the hill to support some kind of development.

 

this type of federal support would allow the river wall to be built in this area (where none currently exists), shore up a road used for commercial traffic, and make an area close to everything available for some kind of development, instead of being left as a fenced in, overgrown wasteland.

 

 

That's a great idea!  Now which program do we apply to for these funds?

I'm loving the accusations being tossed out by armchair geotechnical engineers :roll: And yeah, the way some people are on this board, they'll just post whatever little helterskelter thought goes through their head because it fits whatever agenda they have that hour. Like KJP said - take a drive along Franklin... and then think first, then write.

 

 

 

MayDay, that comment seems a little strong. Afterall, this is NOT cleveland.com, so there is no need for flaming here. To expand on what KJP stated, take a look at Riverbed Street, which follows the best bank of the river from the Columbus Street bridge to over by Stonebridge. There is a huge fissure in the road, where the slope is moving toward the river. Even the layman can see how the hillside is unstable, and is sliding toward the river. I saw the study that indicated that the Riverview Towers are on a solid foundation, but the towers are right on the edge of this. The study also indicated that the CMHA lowrise family units to the north of the towers (AKA "the big 8") are on unstable ground, and CMHA will eventually need to demo these units. There is a line of stability that roughly follows W.25th Street, with areas in and out of stability. The area behind the towers is very unstable, but may be suitable for a large park development. That is another debate, as there are concerns with crime and safety in such a park proposal.

 

I will look at the old Middle Eastern Foods store to see what is going on there. The Abboud family was asking way WAY too much money for this site last I checked. This is the site that the Abboud's tried to open as a state liquor store. Ellie Abboud presented himself to the community as the owner, but Mr. Abboud is now in federal prison for money laundering, bank fraud and check kiting.  The permit was going to be in his brother's name, but we were able to defeat their application to the state for this permit. We plan on working just has hard to block the liquor permit transfer with Hush Nightclub.

Not sure if you realized, my comment was directed at oengus1963's insinuation that the hillside was declared unstable because "you know how those Ohio City people are".

 

I'm very much aware that the hillside is a geological mess and that's the reason there hasn't been construction, and the former projects were razed, etc. Driving on Franklin several times a week, it's become very evident that it's shifted even further over the past year. It has nothing to do with some sinister plot concocted by Ohio City residents and businesses to keep out a "controversial project" as oengus1963 tried to suggest (aka armchair geotechnical engineering).

 

Hope I clarified everything :-)

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed, this is an interesting perception of Ohio City residents. There was no incentive for CMHA to present the instability issue to the community, as CMHA wanted to build on their vacant land behind the towers, as this is property owned by CMHA. The proposal for the Hick's lot was a secondary proposal, as the lot is owned by the City of Cleveland. When that was shot down by the West Side Market Tenants Association, CMHA proposed the RTA site by Duck Island. When those residents shot down that proposal, CMHA gave up on anything in Ohio City. I have mixed feelings about all this. We should be watching the Tremont Pointe Hope VI development to see how well the concept works in the community.  The argument that any of the Hope VI proposals in Ohio City were too dense seemed like a weak argument to me. We need density in our neighborhoods that have lost significant population. Whether this density can be successful through the mixed income proposed by Hope VI is another interesting subject. Time will tell at Tremont Pointe. The quality of construction might be another factor to consider.

I'm confident that Tremont Pointe will do well.  Expressed expectations in the community are mixed, but the plan obviously has a lot of support from those who believe in it, seeing as it's half-built!  And I haven't seen builders shy away from the surrounding blocks.  My understanding about the Riverview project, though, is that what money we had from HUD is now gone.  Is this true?  One-for-one replacement via infill is a reasonable part of the strategy, but the opportunity to build something more catalytic seems to have passed us by.  Again, Church & 28th?  Gone by the wayside?

 

As for the WSM and ped activity... I do agree that the rear lots take activity off the street, but come on, there's still a lot of activity on W. 25th on market days that you wouldn't see otherwise!  Especially when the weather's nice.  Families take their lunches across the street in Market Square, people walk over to GLBC or Bier Markt to enjoy a beer on the patio and watch the people... Open Air in Market Square... come on people!  It's January and we've already forgotten how alive the place was three months ago!

 

Sadly, since moving to Detroit-Shoreway and having a baby, I've been driving to the Market myself.  The thought of carrying my 3-month old, plus the bags and bags of binge produce purchases (2 pineapples for $4! Try this delicious canteloupe!  How can I resist?) 40 blocks just doesn't suit me.  Sure, when she's old enough, I'll strap her onto the back of my bike, but right now, I'm definitely taking advantage of those parking spaces.  Mind you, I'd be fine with parking in a garage if that meant that there were 300 new residents living in apartments on the other lots...

I like the Cleveland Design Competition winners' park  themes.  Keep it all open since it offers amazing views of the city and build as much as possible on the west side of W. 25th.  Mini-Lakeshore Drive and continue it along Detroit where the north side of the street is relatively open to the lake.  That'd be nice...

Doooooooooooooooooooh.  Thank you.  I totally didn't get that.  Damn.  First, not remember the blizzard, now this.  I fee like im one step away from a rocking chair and a evil pet cat.  I've gone all stupid without my coffee.

 

No worries...but yes, I was simply saying the reason W. 25th doesn't look busy when the market is very busy (especially Saturday) is because both people that drive and people that take the rapid never have to make it onto W. 25th St. to do their market shopping.  I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with the rapid, simply that from the front entrance of the market, you wouldn't see rapid riders making their way to the market.

 

Pretty much what oengus1963 said, except that City Buddha has moved to Coventry.

which follows the best bank of the river

 

That could be a great slogan for Stonebridge, "The West Bank is the Best Bank!"

Someone was asking about Hope VI and the CMHA property at W.28th & Church. I just came from a CMHA meeting where I was advised that this property will remain vacant, and will likely be sold off in the open market. Like I stated before, CMHA went with the scattered sites for the replacement 81 units. That leaves nothing for Ohio City. I really thought the RTA site proposal was a winner for the community, especially with the transit-oriented housing potential. A very vocal minority of Duck Island residents shouted this proposal off of the drawing board.

 

I like how "X" caught my "best" bank error. This may now be true, since the Division of Liquor Control has decided to revoke the liquor license renewal for the Mirage. They may still file an appeal, but their days are numbered. Maybe this would be a good location for Hush Nightclub.

^wow, the Stonebridge people will love to see Mirage shut its doors.

Yes things have not been looking good for Mirage. It is not only SB that is happy, but the other business  such as Harbor Inn and residents such as Nautica . Since the last hearing  they have continued to have issues. I kind of heard through the grapevine (you know how that is)  that the Hush possibility was just thrown out to appease the mobs up in OC. As of a few weeks ago, I do not think they were going to entertain this idea. While most people in the flats would love to see the Mirage go, I imagine they would want a decent establishment to take its place. According to Stonebridge's master plan, they would expand all the way to the lake and there is little room for trouble spots.  I do think think the mirage spot is a tiny bit better than Moda, but still not great. I know OC was very relieved to see Moda go and would rather have it empty than having a terrible tenant. The same goes for us. As Mirage has proven,the Flats cannot handle huge influxes of rowdy people. It is not just the violence and excessive noise, but the cruising traffic is a safety issue. Mirage has indoor capacity of 550 and outdoor 250 o the patio,  and it is chaotic down here some nights. Mirage has continually denied any culpability for all the violence and crime surrounding the club certain nights. so it will be interesting to see when they shutter it, how and if that changes. It will be useful info to have when they file an appeal.

I hear you, peabody.  But isn't what you're expressing similar to gripes about the East Bank leading to its recent demise?  Now I hear gripes that the Wolstein replacement design is sterile and boring... Not in anyway to diminish your arguments, but I think you're always going to have a fine balance between excitement and fun and rowdy-ism/violence in tight urban environments like the Flats, Ohio City and even the Warehouse District.  Some places, like South Beach or New Orleans' French Quarter have long histories and are used to it.  But in Cleveland, we're still new to these exciting downtown entertainment districts, and we're still searching for the right balance.

Now I hear gripes that the Wolstein replacement design is sterile and boring...

 

From whom??  I remember from the FEB and Stark threads that some people were complaining about the design without ever having seen it.

 

I know, I know..back on topic.

I know, I know, it is hard to balance it all. Although we will never draw international crowds such as S Beach or the French Quarter so we need to build on what we do have- a great livable city. I will take the FQ out of my equation b/c all bets are off due to what the  hurricane  did to the city's population and economy, but S, Beach is no w.25th or Elm street. I know that regular gunplay is not part of that scene. SB has a different and more diverse crowd.    I was not around when the flats was big, but I doubt people came down there and said gee I want to live here. Rather they just got drunk, puked and drove back to North Ridgeville. How did that work out for Cleveland? The Flats, OC and Warehouse districts are really vulnerable areas. I do not concider any of them stable enough residentially to support an imbalance of residential vs. trouble night spots. Now if the City's vision is to have a bunch of crime ridden wet spots then go for it, but don't expect too many people to buy condos for a quarter mil on up right next door. And forget the families..the retirees...and so on.  Hearing gunshots at night or worse, is not what one would hope would be a regular part of urban living.  This is not to say the city should be sanitized for our protection either. The last things most urban dwellers want is suburban homogamy.  Dangerous clubs need to be closed, and disruptive or rowdy ones need to exist where they do not disturb others- no residents or other businesses that would be affected by all the noise, crime, etc .

In regards to heyday of the Flats (which I consider to be the mid 90s), urban living wasn't on the radar much in Cleveland. I don't think that the Flats had much to do with urban living trends back then.

 

Otherwise, I agree about the gunshots stuff.

Did anyone read the attached?

 

From Mike McIntyre's Tipoff

Monday, January 28, 2008

Michael K. McIntyre

Plain Dealer Columnist

 

Happy memories?:

In the back yard of the home where Cleveland City Councilman Joe Santiago lives stands a weathered statue that might give some of his constituents bad memories: It's one of the two statues that used to mark the entrance of the thorn-in-the-neighborhood night spot known as Moda. Santiago apparently never paid attention to the statues that flanked the entry - one barely covered man and one nude woman. He said the statue in his back yard definitely did not come from Moda, which closed when its liquor license was revoked and whose manager, a drug dealer, was sent to the slammer for laundering drug money. The place was plagued by fights, gunshots and all kinds of undesirable behavior. "It was a gift from my dad," Santiago said of the statue. But examining a picture of the Moda statue leaves no doubt that the one in Santiago's back yard is one and the same. How can the councilman be so confused? Tipoff called him back. "I don't know where my dad got it," said Santiago, who said he never thought to ask where it came from. "He said, 'This is for you' and I said, 'Thanks.' "

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1201512804151390.xml&coll=2&thispage=3

 

 

 

What I want to know is, where did the other statue go? Betcha it's at the Rialto Theater owner's home in the Edgewater neighborhood. Rumor was he gave the male statue to Santiago. Apparently the former council clerk didn't want the statue because it reminded her too much of Marty Sweeney!  :-D

Very funny KJP! I was sorry to see that a certain local newspaper was scooped by the Pee Dee. The McIntyre piece was minimal coverage though. Many of us are wondering how much more there is to this story. Could it be the very tip of the iceberg?

homogamy

 

There's a thread on gay marriage in the Politics forum.  Back on topic please. :)

 

I knew what you meant though. ;)

One of our photographers took a picture of the statue in Santiago's backyard, which is visible from a public sidewalk as long as the person can see over Santiago's 6-foot fence. Our photographer could -- he's 6-foot-9.

 

We're holding onto the photo for possible future use. It's not a high priority for us right now, but we thought it would be good for us to have, just in case. I'll leave it at that....

I had heard it was dropped and the head broke off.

Nope. BOTH heads are attached.

I hear you, peabody.  But isn't what you're expressing similar to gripes about the East Bank leading to its recent demise?  Now I hear gripes that the Wolstein replacement design is sterile and boring... Not in anyway to diminish your arguments, but I think you're always going to have a fine balance between excitement and fun and rowdy-ism/violence in tight urban environments like the Flats, Ohio City and even the Warehouse District.  Some places, like South Beach or New Orleans' French Quarter have long histories and are used to it.  But in Cleveland, we're still new to these exciting downtown entertainment districts, and we're still searching for the right balance.

Wolstein replacement design?  Did Wolstein pull out?  I have been moving and away from most information including the Plain Dealer and evening news?  Am I missing something?

And a back on topic question -- in Ohio City does anyone know who purchased the Oblock Building on W 29th?  We looked at that as a great building to renovate for a house but too much work.  The sign is down -- what, if anything is it being rehabed to be?