oh, and I should add, worth saving!

That's great news that it is a second round of funding!

For those that are interested, Franklin Lofts has sold six units so far, which is not bad considering the market. I hear that Ari Maron is definitely moving forward with the United Bank Building and Tom Gillespie is also moving forward with the Detroit Superior Lofts (W.28th & Detroit). I'm sure that both of these development projects have a very long way to go. I plan on finding out what is up with 3000 Bridge when I get back to Cleveland next week.

What's happening at the old clothing store on West 25th just to the south of Bridge?  They've ripped out the interior and appear to be doing some work in there.

Salon Zen is moving from Lorain to the old Today's Fashions. I believe that is what you are talking about.

Yep, I couldn't remember the name, but that's it.  Thanks.

Salon Zen is moving from Lorain to the old Today's Fashions. I believe that is what you are talking about.

Just curious did they buy the building-it was for sale for a long time....or are they renting?

I thought that they bought it, even though the PURE sign was still up long after it was purchased. The renovations have taken much longer than anticipated due to permit issues and other general renovation issues.

Since KJP reports (here on UO and in last week's Sun article) that Heartland appears kaputsville, could possibly Ari Maron (MRN) purchase Jay Lofts and kick-start that promising, dead-for-1+ year project? ... or is the market so bad no developer would want to touch it right now, even in prosperous Ohio City?

Since KJP reports (here on UO and in last week's Sun article) that Heartland appears kaputsville, could possibly Ari Maron (MRN) purchase Jay Lofts and kick-start that promising, dead-for-1+ year project? ... or is the market so bad no developer would want to touch it right now, even in prosperous Ohio City?

 

I don't think Jay Lofts is for sale, or really any of Heartland's projects. Heartland the business is done, the developers in Heartland still want to see their projects through.

 

Lastly, with the market so bad, developers are shopping as much as they can, but the banks aren't lending. Anybody who needs big time financing to buy real estate is having a hard time getting loans. It's doubtful that you could buy Jay Lofts and borrow enough money against the project to come close to paying for the renovations. Not many developers, even the ones with actual cash to burn, like bank rolling projects like this out of pocket simply because the returns won't be high enough. OPM, OPM..

Councilman Cimperman told me Jay Lofts and Avalon Station are for sale, but I did a search of some commercial real estate sites and saw neither property listed. FWIW....

I still think they should get over themselves with expecting bottomless demand for high end condos and  instead sell them as raw shells for people to finish as they please...or do something clean and simple like Payne av lofts. It is better than sitting there looking like a bombed out building with a big dirt pile next to it. Like the rest of us, developers are going to have to tighten their belts and not expect such high profits.

I still think they should get over themselves with expecting bottomless demand for high end condos and  instead sell them as raw shells for people to finish as they please...or do something clean and simple like Payne av lofts. It is better than sitting there looking like a bombed out building with a big dirt pile next to it. Like the rest of us, developers are going to have to tighten their belts and not expect such high profits.

 

I don't think the prices are out of whack for the market and location.  In my opinion, Cleveland has built smartly.

To clarify, I think it is more of a supply issue. cool urban housing should be available at all price points. Therre are only so many people around here that will pay 300,000 for a condo

To clarify, I think it is more of a supply issue. cool urban housing should be available at all price points. Therre are only so many people around here that will pay 300,000 for a condo

 

We'll that I agree on, however, its location.  Building (renovating a historical building or rehabing an existing structure) is going to cost more so the price is passed on to a consumer willing to pay.  If you build that same building in Ohio City, Edgewater, Shaker Square, the price will be up there just not as high as downtown.

 

If folks weren't buying, they wouldn't build.  the market determines price.

 

However, as downtown grows, places like Asian Village (anywhere east of the inner belt, between the lake and Carneige) will be popular.  Similar to the 15 blocks east or west of West 65 street.  Battery Park was built, but owners in the area also have improved their properties.

 

Again, I don't think 235-300k is unreasonable in Downtown, Shaker Square, Edgewater, Ohio City, Tremont, University Circle or Little Italy/Murray Hill - considering what you get in Cleveland for a condo.

"If folks weren't buying, they wouldn't build". 

 

case in point-that is why some of these projects are slowing. people on this board may think it is ok to pay that for downtown living, but it is not a huge market. Many people in Cleveland think for that price you should have a yard, 2 car garage, 4 bedrooms, and so on.

"If folks weren't buying, they wouldn't build". 

 

case in point-that is why some of these projects are slowing. people on this board may think it is ok to pay that for downtown living, but it is not a huge market. Many people in Cleveland think for that price you should have a yard, 2 car garage, 4 bedrooms, and so on.

I disagree.  It's the largest and fastest growing area in NEohio.  How could that be wrong.  Again, Cleveland hasn't overbuilt like many cities.

 

I bet we'll see more "rent to own" and/or more buying options and packages coming up.  I think we'll also see more Studio's and ONE bedroom units coming on line at reasonable prices.

 

Young singles want a piece of the pie

still, you need many folks to sell there house first before they can buy the condo downtown, and Cleveland is still a good ways away from attracting young families because of the schools and various crime issues, real or perceived. That does limit the amount of buyers for the amount of housing stock available. And it's compounded with the issue of financing, as even if you have a young person with some money for a down payment and a want to live in OC or downtown, the banks still might not finance with only the condo as collateral.

 

This is a great time to have cash.. of course, maybe that's always true.

still, you need many folks to sell there house first before they can buy the condo downtown, and Cleveland is still a good ways away from attracting young families because of the schools and various crime issues, real or perceived. That does limit the amount of buyers for the amount of housing stock available. And it's compounded with the issue of financing, as even if you have a young person with some money for a down payment and a want to live in OC or downtown, the banks still might not finance with only the condo as collateral.

 

This is a great time to have cash.. of course, maybe that's always true.

 

WeWi, you raise some good points.  However, a first time entrant into the condo market could still be approved for financing in a smaller unit.  or via a foreclosure.  There are alternatives.

Fries & Schuele has plenty of condos for sale for under $250k, even some for less than $150k; and it's right on RTA; good value and hot seller for first timers

I friend of mine just bought a condo at F&S.  One bedroom for $125,000.  Free indoor parking spot included.  I've heard the sales are going pretty well there.

I have a friend who moved to this country and bought a home in Tremont for about $15,000 around the late 1980's.  He fixed it up and sold about 10 years later for under $100,000.  Last year, he saw it was sold again for $300,000+.  Although the people in this article aren't reselling, similar type of story here:

 

NOTE: Should there be a OC thread in City Discussion??  Maybe even a "Cleveland: Ohio City and Tremont Discussion" to help with articles not quite construction-related like this??

 

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Unique restoration on display in home tour

Thursday, May 01, 2008

Melissa Hebert

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Pioneers still exist.

 

Bob Harris and Michael O'Connor are two of them. In 1989, they rolled their covered wagon -- all right, their car -- into Ohio City and bought a 140-year-old Italianate home for $500 three days before it was scheduled to meet with the wrecking ball.

 

They may have overpaid. The house had been converted into a two-family home back in the 1950s and had been abandoned eight years before Harris bought it. The neighborhood was overrun with drugs and crime -- Harris described it as "a war zone."

 

Nineteen years and a lot of work, creativity and purchasing of neighboring lots later, Harris and O'Connor have turned the house into a colorful home with Ohio City's only residential in-ground pool. They're showing it off on this year's Ohio City Home Tour on Sunday, May 18. Their home is one of nine on the 20th annual tour...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/insideout/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/1209630838298850.xml&coll=2

I have photos of the Harris/O'Connor house from the 2005 home tour. It's an amazing house. I'll see if I can find them so I can post them.

^Kind of disheartening that, in 1989, a 121-year old (then, I'm assuming), obviously architecturally significant home was 3 days from meeting the wrecking ball ... in Ohio City, no less.  1989 wasn't that long ago; well after Ohio City had become a 'happening' hood even though not to the extent it is, now perhaps.  Obviously, I'm glad this home was saved, but that it needed to be at the zero hour gives one pause.

^I would imagine there are a number of houses in Ohio City in the same boat TODAY.

^^Ohio City's momentum was not very strong in the late 80s. Sure, Jay Ave looked good. But it didn't stretch too far from that little enclave.  The home mentioned in the article is pretty far from the heart of OCNW. In fact, I'm surprised that the area is not considered DS. It is not the best part of OC.

 

I've been in this particular house. I consider it pretty tacky. Outside of the living room, it is pretty odd and somewhat cheapily done. The tv room looks great for 1987 and there is a lot of plastic in the kitchen. The bedroom has a jungle safari theme The guy who does "Buck Naked Yoga" is one of the owners. You ought to see the custom stained glass pieces in the master bath. If you see it, you wouldn't be surprised that the guy does the yoga classes.

Lots of Greek gods in the decor upstairs, too. Even some flamers who saw my pictures rolled their eyes (apologies to all you flamers).

^I wouldn't say there are too many mid 19th century Italianates ready to meet the wrecking ball in OC today.  This is west of Randall (by some considered to be the western boundary of OC), which was FAR less "happening" than the core area of OC.  It still isn't the mecca of renovation that the area east of Randall is, but it is a much more livable neighborhood than it was 20 years ago.

 

EDIT: I guess I let the page sit a long time.  My reply was to Htsguy but I see I got trumped when the page refreshed.

^^Ohio City's momentum was not very strong in the late 80s. Sure, Jay Ave looked good. But it didn't stretch too far from that little enclave.  The home mentioned in the article is pretty far from the heart of OCNW. In fact, I'm surprised that the area is not considered DS. It is not the best part of OC.

 

I've been in this particular house. I consider it pretty tacky. Outside of the living room, it is pretty odd and somewhat cheapily done. The tv room looks great for 1987 and there is a lot of plastic in the kitchen. The bedroom has a jungle safari theme The guy who does "Buck Naked Yoga" is one of the owners. You ought to see the custom stained glass pieces in the master bath. If you see it, you wouldn't be surprised that the guy does the yoga classes.

 

Oh, its the infamous "Buck" Harris!  Yeah I could see that

Also should be pointed out that this house is not actually in Ohio City -- it's in Detroit Shoreway, at W. 54th and Bridge. Detroit-Shoreway was definitely NOT gentrifying yet in the 1980s.

Does anyone have any insight on the Painters Union Hall at 2605 Detroit Ave? It's a Tom Gillespie project. We just moved in and we are DISAPPOINTED- beautiful apartments, nicely done but after we signed the lease corners have started to be cut everywhere- I know GETCO has lots of projects in Ohio City- has anyone else experienced this?

Does anyone have any insight on the Painters Union Hall at 2605 Detroit Ave? It's a Tom Gillespie project. We just moved in and we are DISAPPOINTED- beautiful apartments, nicely done but after we signed the lease corners have started to be cut everywhere- I know GETCO has lots of projects in Ohio City- has anyone else experienced this?

 

Welcome aboard.

 

Might I ask what you mean "corners have been cut"  an example might help as just saying that is rather vague.

 

Have you asked why things have changed?  To me, that would make more sense.  Is it possible that the things the landlord thought they could offer are not feasible now?  If so, then a rent reduction and amendment to your lease sounds reasonable.

It's little things that add up:

1. Leasing agent told us there would be free internet and not only do we now have to pay for it, it will be a weak signal, and not secure.

2. Leasing agent also told us closet standards would be installed. After we signed the lease we were told they would not install standards (rods your clothes hang on) and that we would have to pay for it.

3. We were told that a bathroom mirror would be installed before we moved in, it was just installed today (we moved in a week ago). Job was very shoddily done, there are HOLES in the wall.

like I said, these are small issues, but I wonder what else is going to come up....

It's little things that add up:

1. Leasing agent told us there would be free internet and not only do we now have to pay for it, it will be a weak signal, and not secure.

2. Leasing agent also told us closet standards would be installed. After we signed the lease we were told they would not install standards (rods your clothes hang on) and that we would have to pay for it.

3. We were told that a bathroom mirror would be installed before we moved in, it was just installed today (we moved in a week ago). Job was very shoddily done, there are HOLES in the wall.

like I said, these are small issues, but I wonder what else is going to come up....

 

One question?  Was this verbal or in writing?

Verbal- stupid me. We learned an important lesson.

Verbal- stupid me. We learned an important lesson.

 

Yes, you did. :whip:

 

All I can suggest now is that you put ALL your needs with completion dates in a notarized letter and give it to the landlord/building management.  As a new tenant, if you let stuff slide now, it will certainly go down hill.

 

I think going that route will work and if the management company is responsible, they will answer and make the necessary repairs with no problem.

 

Kan Zaman has leap frog-ed over Lutheran Hosp to a new building in a typical, car-oriented, strip mall-type building set back from the street, seems somewhat a negative move for this well known Middle Eastern restaurant and hookah bar, though I’m sure they’ll tell you they have more space.  The end result is there’s yet another vacant storefront along the main W. 25th commercial drag.  The Middle Eastern market, formerly next to the WSM, is gone too, making at least 6 vacant storefronts I counted along the east side of the short commercial strip along W. 25 – joining long vacant Moda, City Buddha, a prominent spot that’s been empty a year, this fall, and a few others.  The only new establishment in the area is the Cento restaurant adjacent to the Belgian Bier Mrkt.

 

We already know about the long still-born Jay Lofts around the corner.  Overall, does this mean Ohio City is struggling?    We know that, despite Cleveland’s long-standing status as a Melting Pot (which many prefer, these days, to reference as a “Stew”), there’s an unfortunate history of race/class conflicts which oftentimes causes developments in mixed areas to struggle… Let’s hope that’s not the case here.  Ohio City, to me, is one of our most valuable neighborhoods.

 

during the day (except sunday) Nates, Phenom Phen help keep things plugging along. In the evening Old Angle and Garage also contribute. Last weekend we were in Pittsburgh. I had never been to the "southside" . I was struck by how many people were living there, how many businesses there were, and how many people out and about- residents just enjoying the day and suburbans visiting (identified by use of paid lot when there was meter/free parking on the street). It was a holiday Sunday, but everything was open and bustling-on a Sunday lunch time. I bring this up not to be attacked, but b/c I noted that there was similarity in neighborhood characteristics  -old revitalized store fronts, that gave way to renovated housing, mixed with new contruction.  It is not as if I am try to compare Cleveland to Portland here, Pittsburgh has some of the same rust belt issues we do, so not sure what is going on there.  The presence of so many people on the streets in different neighborhoods was striking

^I generally agree.  On non-market days it can be awfully quiet on W25th.  Other than packing the immediate areas with more residents (which I am strongly in favor of), I don't know what the answer is.  Would be great to have more neighborhood retail going to complement all the restaurants, but it must be tough with SY Commons so close.

 

 

We've covered some of this discussion in a different thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15838.msg275467.html#msg275467

 

 

Peabody...I was also in Pittsburgh last weekend, but generally in Squirrel Hill and Shadyside (first time) which also had a lot of street life.  Loved both neighborhoods.

 

My only question regarding your post is why do you think you will be "attacked" by forum members for making such benign statements and simply commenting favorably on another city's neighborhoods?

I've heard similar things regarding Pittsburgh. I am also a little puzzled by the "attacked" comment. But anyways, what is the makeup of Squirrel Hill? Is there also a large number of subsidized housing projects and poverty nearby as in Ohio City or is Squirrel Hill able to overcome that to reach the level of activity that you described?

regarding "attacked" remember that guy on here who raved about Pittsburgh?  For some reason people went ape sh** about it. Not sure why, they can learn things from us, we from them. Seriously it would be interesting to do a study b/c it is not as if the weather, economy or public transit are that much better there...but people are out in droves every time I go there.

It's interesting, downtown Pittsburgh, after hours, is a lot dead-er than Cleveland's.  But the Pittsburgh nabes you mentioned: Southside, Squirrel Hill ... and I'll thrown in college-oriented Oakland, have the kind of 24-7 bustle I wish Ohio City and others did... and I'd go a step further, Peabody, Cleveland's public transit is better than Pittsburgh's, esp rail, and esp to areas like Ohio City, Univ Circle and Shaker Square/Larchmere... But all 3 of those areas lack the full time energy we'd like.  Little Italy is as probably as strong as you'll get inside Cleveland... Coventry, up the hill in Cleve Hts, tends to be the champ, though.  There are parallels btw Coventry and Squirrel Hill, which is very Heights-y but just happens to be w/in Pittsburgh's border.

 

Back to Ohio City: I'm glad those other businesses, like Phonm Phen are hanging in there.  It's just that I would have thought by now, esp the growth of the Market Ave. restaurants, Fries & Shuele's strength -- as a high-end, high density residence with street retail -- and Old Angle's strong establishment and growth, I'd have expected, a few years ago, that Ohio City now would be a lot stronger than it is... It seems to have hit a wall.  And, as I said, there are way too many empty storefronts than you'd like...

 

Any word on MRN's plans for the United Bank building and its surrounds?  Can we finally do something about that hideous Market Square (strip/roadside) plaza and stretch the district south, below Lorain and Monroe, and west of W. 25th, toward St. Ignatius HS?

 

It's interesting, downtown Pittsburgh, after hours, is a lot dead-er than Cleveland's.

 

I was just about to say the same thing.  Not to bash Pittsburgh, because it has a lot of things going for it and some very nice neighborhoods, but I have noticed on a few occasions that the downtown area is very dead in the evenings.

My impression is that despite lots of similarities, Pittsburgh actually has more neighborhoods and commercial districts which are still intact than Cleveland.  Haven't been there in years, but Squirrel Hill is amazing- incredible housing stock and commercial area- like having an older Shaker Heights within the city limits (plus, unlike Shaker, a great old shopping strip).  It never had to gentrify because it never really declined.

 

I still think Ohio City has great potential.  If that hillside can ever be stabilized, packing the land east of West 25th with residents would sure help.

 

3231...from what I could observe (again this was my first time in this neighborhood) and from what I could gleam from my host, Squirrel Hill is much like Cleveland Hts (only older and of course smaller since it is only a neighborhood in the city of Pittsburgh itself).  Combination of many well perserved large homes (actually many mansions) on shady streets, old apartments in good condition with lots of character, smaller houses and very nice retail district with lots of restaurants, shops and galleries.  Seemed like many different age groups lived there from right out of school to families to older.  Did not seem too racially diverse although I could be wrong and I believe mixed neighborshood were close at hand.  Both SH and Shadyside seem to take advantage of being right next to the Pitt and Carneigh Mellon campuses so I imagine many profs live in the neighborhood.  My host mentioned an adjoining neighborhood called Liberty which was more rundown but is suppose to be the next gentrified around.  Did notice a lack of new construction (like many of the modern townhouses you see in Cleveland) but probably not much available in terms of lots to do it.

 

I am sure many on this board are more familiar with SH and could comment more extensively.

^^^Not to get off topic, I might have to agree with the above stated impression of downtown Pittsburgh.  While well developed, it appears not to have much life after 5.  This was stated by my host who is originally from Pittsburgh but lived next door to me in Cleveland Hts for a couple of years.  He also said the retail scene downtown has declined substantially in the past 5 years although there are hopes it may pick up with some new projects

interesting. I am not a nightlife person, so I did not even notice! I loved seeing the busy stores and cafes during the day. I can tell you the little remote piece of OC-the west bank of the Flats jumps on Friday and Saturday night. I usually don't head down into the bowels (or any other hot spots) on those nights b/c of all the "tourists"  but it is very busy with activity these nights. Last night we we did a center street crawl of Flat Iron, McCarthys and Harbor Inn and we had to ask whoever said the flats was dead....?

Went to school in Pittsburgh. Beautiful downtown, beautiful and very dense and vibrant neighborhoods. Cleveland has a lot to learn from Pittsburgh in terms of streetlife and density.

I think the key differences in Ohio City vs. the successful 24-7 nabes in Pittsburgh is geography.  Pittsburgh has a lower population and population density than Cleveland, but it has pockets of high density constricted at the tops or bottoms of (often steep) hills, while Cleveland's is spread moderately over flatter, more accessible neighborhoods -- like Ohio City.  I think it's no coincidence that our most successful 24-hour areas, Little Italy and Coventry, fall more into the Pittsburgh model, geographically.  My area, Shaker Square, has high population density concentrated at Shaker Square, but the Square area (including Larchmere), is mainly flat; on top of that, both Shaker Sq and Larchmere really don't want wild, trendy jam-packed areas.  Shaker Sq, esp wants family friendly establishments, that's why bars and clubs in this area are few and the few we've had really don't last (accept for the long-running "The Reason Why" which died in the 1990s)...

 

Ohio City is obviously trying to build population density, but with little success aside from Fries and Shuele which, next to CMHA's Riverview, is the 2nd largest res building, unit-wise (I'm pretty sure its bigger than the West Virginia apts; correct me if I'm wrong)... The bulk of OC's residences are small Victorian houses on individual lots; some small and close-cropped, but OC's density doesn't match a Coventry, Shaker Sq, Little Italy or Edgewater/Lakewood Gold Coast... hence the feast-or-famine bustle as opposed to Pittsburgh's Southside.

 

Chicago is flat and accessible too (which, I know we've compared to Cleveland ad nauseum), but it makes up for it with such extreme population size and densit in most nabes...