I finally got around to e-mailing OCNW today about the status of the low-rise buildings north of Riverview Tower on W. 25th. I'm sure anyone who lives in the area knows what I'm talking about, but for those who don't -- this is among the most frustrating real estate situations in the City of Cleveland. What you have are a series of incredibly ugly, low-rise public housing buildings set well back from W. 25th Street from Riverview Tower to the Detroit-Superior Bridge.

Now, if there's any place in the city that could attract a truly mixed-income population of the kind HOPE VI envisions, it's on this section of W. 25th. The views of downtown are spectacular and it's within walking distance of the Rapid, shops on W. 25th and entertainment in the Flats and Warehouse District. Yet while initial plans showed rebuilding on this site, it has been mysteriously absent from recent discussions of the project. Why? Because, according to the response I got today, that land was part of what was deemed "unstable" in the geo-technical study that also ruled out building on the riverbank nearby! So despite the fact that that land already supports buildings, it's no longer being considered for residential redevelopment! Truly frustrating.

Still, all is not lost. Apparently OCNW is in talks to do some development on the west side of W. 25th -- also underutlized, though some commercial buildings remain -- and there are ideas for creating green space to replace the low-rise buildings, which would be a vast improvement.

 

Here's more from OCNW:

 

"The geo-technical data showed that all the buildings north of Riverview Tower are on unstable ground. Therefore, it’s highly unlikely we’ll ever see development from Riverview north to the bridge. Pretty sad. However, there might be opportunities for vastly improved green space and view sheds. The OCNW Board of Trustees made tearing down the low-rise buildings a specific request in the resolution of support we passed last month. Much of it was for safety reasons, but the improvements to the neighborhood would be large.

 

The west side (of W. 25th) is still under discussion. CMHA is in talks with several property owners on that side of 25th."

Good sleuthing, B12!

 

I've been to a couple meetings in the buildings on the east side of 25th.  Transitional Housing Inc. has their offices over there and I believe an affiliate of theirs owns the land and buildings.  They could definitely do with a rehab, but I don't know if they're thinking about moving.

 

There's still a ton of land directly adjacent to Riverview that should be put to some productive use...ballfields, viewing plaza, whatever...and a decent amount of land behind them as well along Bridge, closer to the river.  Every time I go back there, I think of the tremendous potential of those city-owned parking lots south of Bridge, behind the market, where one component of the recent HOPE VI proposals was shot down by a VERY VOCAL MINORITY.  But do those fall into the "danger zone?"

 

I agree that the potential along the west side of 25th might be more promising right now, considering the conditions across the street and I hope they move on it!

I wonder what they deem as unstable? Is it under no circumstances can this land be built on? or is it We can build some things under some limited conditions on this land? There used to be buildings there back when it was irishtown. Iristown bend condos ~seem~ to have simmilar soil conditions. The area near there is full of freshwater springs, so they had to put huge concrete footers there just to keep a not so big building stable. I'd say CMHA should sell the land between riverbed and franklin to private developers, and limit the constuction scale to units simmilar in scale to irshtown bend condos and keep them spaced out enough too keep it woodsy and hopefuly prevent instability too. Just because the public finds impossiblites to build there, dosent mean greedy developers wont find a way

From what I remember of the geotechnical study, the land could be stabilized but the cost would be prohibitive (especially for a public entity). What you're saying about the land being sold to a private developer makes sense, but under current market conditions in the city demand probably wouldn't be sufficient to justify the expenditure.

I wouldn't at all mind a park on the north end of W. 25th -- that would give everyone unobstructed views of downtown, and provide green space in an area where it's currently somewhat lacking.

a park would be great and if that's all we can do for the next 30 years due to lack of funds to stabilize the hillside, then by all means, we should do it.  but right now, it's a big piece of green space with a fence around it.

 

from what i hear, there are several more rounds of studies that need to be done before cost estimates can be made for future development.  cost prohibitive is definitely the term for it, but it's also true that a private developer could find the cost acceptable with a certain type of development on site.  I have a feeling that this would include them asking for a big investment by the public sector to help offset the cost of site preparation...much like brownfield cleanup...

I think that CMHA believes that things can be built there, but banks won't fund it if its unstable.

a park would be great and if that's all we can do for the next 30 years due to lack of funds to stabilize the hillside, then by all means, we should do it.  but right now, it's a big piece of green space with a fence around it.

 

And don't forget the ugly low-rise buildings blocking views of downtown! ;)

^are you talking about the ones north of the CMHA property?  I know these were drawn up as something new in the initial drawings from a few years back, but I don't know if they've actually pursued acquiring the properties.  It's actually pretty surprising the the private market hasn't made any moves here already.  I mean, if I was some small non-profit sitting on a prime piece of land in a dilapidated building and someone offered me more than enough money to move and rehab a better location, I'd take the money!  I don't know anything about prior efforts, though, or what is keeping them in that location...

Those parcels north of the tower were listed under "phase II."  No timeline was ever given for the second phase.

Guys, these are the buildings I was referring to when I posted OCNW's e-mail: The ugly low-rise ones north of Riverview Tower, on the east side of W. 25th Street.

To quote OCNW again: "It’s highly unlikely we’ll ever see development from Riverview north to the bridge." The low-rise buildings are no longer part of *any* phase of the HOPE VI development. That's why I was so upset! It seems the best we can hope for now is a park.

But why can't they develop up to the sidewalk on the CMHA land north of Riverview and south of the THI buildings and have a greenspace behind that on the unstable land?  I understand if they need to go further with studies before developing back there, but on the street frontage?  I'm sure it just has to do with determining the overall safety and potential for all that land...

I know, it doesn't make sense. If there are already buildings there, it seems the land would be stable enough to support replacements. However, according to OCNW, "The geo-technical data showed that all the buildings north of Riverview Tower are on unstable ground."

The good news is that now OCNW is recommending tearing the buildings down for that very reason. And in a lot of ways, it might be better to have a park there than buildings; that way everyone can see the view!

as it is, though, there is enough land on CMHA property to house a pretty significant (3-5 acre) park. We can start with that and when more studies are done and the development potential is more accurately assessed, CMHA can decide whether to build, sell, keep as a park, etc.  I guess one problem would be maintenance...if CMHA retains ownership, they'd be responsible for upkeep and safety.  If they turn it over to the City Parks Dept., that takes it out of the development arena...

CMHA development awaits HUD approval of new plan

Officials hope long-delayed Ohio City project gets extension

Sunday, November 13, 2005

Angela D. Chatman

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Federal housing officials will decide by year's end whether to approve the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority's revised plan for a mixed-income development in Ohio City.

 

The approval would also extend the long-delayed Riverview HOPE VI project by three years, to the end of 2009.

 

If the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development grants the authority's request, CMHA will retain the remaining $8.5 million of a project grant that is to expire on Dec. 31, 2006, and have more time to plan and carry out the development...

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

Two tidbits of info that I heard today:

 

HUD has given an extension to the Riverview Hope VI project.

 

The building that burned down on West 25th will be rebuilt preserving the original facade.

wimwar, which building burned on W.25? (rough address? street corner?).

 

Also, I really wonder how much more it would cost to shore up that land to build NE of Riverview.  I think we've all seen greater engineering feats than this.

 

Finally, as much as I'm a TOD fan, I'm not sure the schematic of low rises rising over the Red Line tracks, in a line south of Lorain does the trick.  While it could have the effect of pulling some more development/retail activity on the still largely quiet quadrant of Ohio City (W. 25 south of the Lorain/WSM), I've got a feeling it would be too far isolated and linear in nature to develop the kind of residential density that would have a more positive impact (as in foot traffic) as say, a high or midrise --- but I could be wrong.

 

Clvlndr,

 

Where have you been?

 

The burned building is about 3 structures to the north of the West Side Market. 

 

I agree with your observations on the Duck island proposal.  I know that the images are only preliminary massings, but it really fails as a design concept.  It would form a long wind tunnell corridor.  It is not very inviting and it looks like a superblock. While it is isolated from the rest of Ohio City, this could really succeed in sparking a new neighborhood if the project is less linear and incorporates smaller blocks within the development.   

I've had the same reservations and I agree... While Ohio City is one of the more vibrant urban neihborhoods in Cleveland, it is still functioning on a delicate balance.  I think that one day we'll have a contiguous corridor down West 25th into Clark/Metro/Fulton, but to concentrate so much new housing on that end of the district right now might be a mistake.  I think we really need to concentrate on the gaps along West 25th between Lorain and Detroit!  I wonder how active Lutheran Hospital has been in these discussions...they've got quite a few parking lots along that stretch...as do other companies.

The Building that burned down was called Market Square building. Also, I heard that Marous Brothers have made an agreement with the developer to build the CMHA housing project on west 25Th.

The Building that burned down was called Market Square building. Also, I heard that Marous Brothers have made an agreement with the developer to build the CMHA housing project on west 25Th.

 

 

Where on West 25th???

Yes, the Market Square Building, but it didn't burn "down" exactly...just burned "out."  Still, it appears that there may be a chance to rebuild it.

 

And where/when did you hear this about Marous and CMHA?  That's something that hasn't been mentioned here before.  Are you sure this isn't outdated?

 

I did hear from a neighborhood merchant that Marous is interested in developing the parcels north of the WS Market, where the Market Square Building and Orange Blossom Press sit, but I don't know how much merit this source has!

We're looking into here at Sun. Will advise.

The Market Square building is right across from Fries & Schuele. MGD is correct, it was gutted not burned down. Concerning the CMHA project, I have a contact at CMHA and they told me that Telesis & Marous have met and had several phone conversations and have come to an agreement. Although who really knows what will happen by the time they finally get everything sorted out.

true, these plans have changed immensely from day one...but if they're still talking about building on West 25th, that's news to me...and good news at that!  I think this was one of the most important things about the first set of plans...filling the huge gaps along West 25th.  Looking forward to hearing more!

MGD,

 

I agree.  We need to continue to develop a critical mass on 25th to support retail and enhance street life. Hopefully, the Jay Hotel project will move forward soon. 

Yes, I'm curious there how much the developer is seeking to work with...is he just doing the Jay Hotel and the adjacent vacant lot?  Is he trying to get the warehouses between Jay and Bridge? (that's what I heard)  Is he trying to get the buildings fronting West 25th as well (Near West Woodworks, etc)?  Anxiously awaiting more news on this one as well!

The Jay Hotel project has been silent for a while now.  The last thing that I saw was a mention of it in the developer's spring newsletter.  I emailed Heartland, but they never responded.

I spoke to someone in the City Planning office about the Jay Hotel in September. He said the developer was trying to acquire some of the property around the hotel before going ahead with the project. There are some very ugly steel sheds right behind the hotel (the warehouses MGD refers to), and a parking lot immediately to the west -- I'm assuming this is the stuff Heartland is trying to get.

That would be my basic assumption too.  It would be a much more substantial and impactful project if it incorporated a West 25th Street frontage, but I'm not sure how I feel about displacing those businesses, or how much more complicated this would make the project.

The following is a handy article from the December Plain Press, available online at www.nhlink.net/plainpress.  This is the best wrap-up of that last Riverview meeting that I've read to date.  There's even a little bit at the end that I hadn't heard yet...

 

Riverview HOPE VI update

by Chuck Hoven

 

At a November 17th meeting at Riverview Towers at 1791 W. 25th Street, Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority (CMHA) officials and representatives of Ohio City Near West Development Corporation (OCNW) and Telesis Corporation offered an update on the Riverview HOPE VI proposal to the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) to build 384 units of new mixed income housing in the Ohio City neighborhood. While little new information was offered at the meeting, the small crowd of a little over twenty people allowed officials to answer questions about the project.

 

CMHA officials noted that they met a September 30th deadline to submit a revised proposal to HUD requesting an extension on the original grant and identifying new sites for the proposed development. They said the revised proposal received approval of HUD with some conditions. HUD has not yet revealed what conditions they will require.

 

The revised proposal requests additional funds for land acquisition (not in the original proposal) and identifies new sites for the housing. The original site for the new housing, CMHA property behind the Riverview Towers, was deemed too unstable to build upon.

 

Four new sites were selected on which to build the 384 units of new housing. Eighty-one of those units will be replacement public housing units for residents displaced when their homes were demolished to make way for the project. The new sites put forth in the proposal are: W. 28th and Detroit Avenue (56 units); W. 28th and Church Avenue (74 units); W. 41st and Lorain Avenue (12 units); and Regional Transit Authority land that lies between W. 25th, Lorain Avenue and Columbus Road (242 units).

 

OCNW Executive Director Joe Mazzola said OCNW and Telesis Corporation are committed to pursuing additional sites to lower the density of the housing proposed for the RTA site,  in response to concerns of residents in the Duck Island neighborhood.

 

A CMHA official explained that tenants in the 81 public housing units will only pay 30% of their income for rent and utilities as other public housing tenants do. Telesis Corporation will manage the rental units for the first 15 years, at which time the contract could either be renewed or revert back to CMHA for management services. The units are protected as public housing under CMHA ownership.

 

CMHA Executive Director George Phillips said that, while CMHA would like to build more than 81 public housing units as part of the project, they have received only $8.5 million to build public housing, enough to build only 81 units. Asked whether HOPE VI dollars could have been used to acquire scattered site housing and substantially rehab it (instead of building new housing), Phillips said, “it is theoretically possible, but I don’t know that it would have received funding from HUD.”

 

When asked why all of the housing units were being built in the Ohio City neighborhood rather than spread out over a number of neighborhoods, Phillips said the major reason was to fulfill commitments made to former residents of the Riverview estates. “We promised they could come back to this neighborhood,” Phillips said.

 

CMHA and Telesis Corporation officials also said that some creative mortgages could make some of the 303 new for-sale housing units more affordable. Income restrictions tied to the mortgage could be transferable with the property when it is sold making the units more affordable even upon resale.

 

A Jay Avenue resident expressed concern that the new project offered little in the way of commercial development and green space as proposed in the original HOPE VI proposal made with input from the community. Mazzola said he believes that the new housing on W. 28 by Detroit and at W. 41st and Lorain will help spur development.

 

Mazzola explained a proposal by OCNW to create an Ohio City Safety Special Improvement District. He said such a district would be entirely dependent upon property owners in the district agreeing to pay an extra tax to pay for extra security.

 

Mazzola said OCNW’s board has proposed that the original site behind the Riverview Towers be made into a public park and that it be connected to the Ohio and Erie Canal Towpath Trail as a trailhead. CMHA Executive Director Phillips “that is something we would seriously look at and consider.”

I think an Ohio City SID would be excellent and that West 25th is the logical place to do it.  It could spread down Detroit and Lorain as well. 

 

The park idea is one that just seems like common sense and has been mentioned here before.  One drawback, though, is that we would likely be losing all development potential for the future by committing this site to public use as a park.

 

I'm still curious about the West 25th Street frontages of the CMHA property and others north of Jay that still haven't really entered into the conversation yet...at least, not the conversation that I've witnessed.

MGD shoots and he scores!  (some interesting articles today)

I'm still curious about the West 25th Street frontages of the CMHA property and others north of Jay that still haven't really entered into the conversation yet...at least, not the conversation that I've witnessed.

 

Exactly which frontages are you talking about? As we've already discussed, the property on the east side of W. 25th north of Riverview Tower isn't in the conversation because that land has been deemed unstable. There apparently is some potential for redeveloping stuff on the west side, but that would presumably be infill because some occupied commercial buildings survive there.

 

I'm not against turning the east side properties into a park. That would allow everyone to enjoy the spectacular views of downtown -- and it would get rid of those god-awful low-rise buildings.

The most specific frontage I'm talking about is the actual CMHA property along the east side of West 25th that touches the sidewalk.  This is the space just north of the existing towers and south of Franklin Ave. that goes downhill east of the site.  I figure that if they say the hillside is stable enough for two towers to remain there, then they should probably be able to build something considerably smaller just north of them that abuts the sidewalk.  However, if they're concerned about future development prospects or if it's not stable enough even for that or if they just want the whole thing to be a park, then this option is out. 

 

The other frontages I'm referring to would be all the parking lots on the west side of the street and perhaps moving north to the Transitional Housing property, which CMHA does not currently own.  I doubt this property is contained in the area that they are considering for a park.

Just a little tidbit from Heartland Developers latest newsletter:

 

 

Doesn't look like Near West Woodworks gets to stick around...nor do a couple small buildings next to it.  I haven't heard a word about this from anyone but the Heartland website and I'm assuming that no one has heard back from them...what's the deal?

MGD,

 

Did you get a print version of that newsletter?  The website has last spring's version.  I had emailed them when I saw that newsletter last May and never received a response.

So that's an old rendering? I was starting to get hopeful that they'd actually start work this spring!

Either way, thanks for posting MGD.

something is updated as the newsletter posted says "staring in Spring 2005" and lists 170K as the starting price.  the new graphic has the 2006 start date and a start price under 200k. 

 

also, newsletter calls them the "Post Office" and this is now calling them the "Lofts".

 

who knows how serious they are though besides the minor updates.

I just called the number on that listing and they're sending me more info.  The lady said that it is going ahead this spring, but she thinks the first phase is just the Jay Hotel (she called it the Post Office building).  She mentioned they're creating a courtyard behind the Jay Hotel and building townhomes behind that on 26th through to Bridge.  She didn't know about the Woodworks building.  I guess I'll have a sales associate calling me soon, so I'll let you know if I learn anything new!

MGD, There's been articles in the West Side Sun by David Plata and Crain's Stan Bullard about the project. I haven't followed the project too closely, however.

wow that really looks good. i hope it actually happens.

This project would further cement this area as strong place for a real estate investment.  I hope it moves along quickly.  I also wish that they had broken ground earlier as I am looking to buy this spring.

 

Any word on how other places are doing in Ohio City? I drove by the Ohio City townhomes the other day and noticed that there were only 2 for-sale signs still up.  A few of the other units looked empty, but did not have a for-sale sign in front of them.  The most expensive unit (corner) looks like it has a tenant.  Furthermore, it appears that renovations are beginning on the grand old home that is just to the east of the project (this is part of the deveoper's plan).  There has been no movement on the Japanese units.  Outside of this little area, the rest of OC's new stuff seems to be in the W.40s or beyond.  Any word on how that is moving?

 

 

Well, the OC townhome site says that only 2 units have sold.

the developers bought the corner and end units.

So, they haven't legitimately sold anything yet?

in my humble opinion, the asking prices are way too high for the neighborhood.  i believe they recently lowered the starting prices to the mid $400,000's

 

i'd guess they are prepared to wait it out?

it seems that price points are high for many of the developments.  it is more of a catch 22 - younger people will live downtown or in a gentrifying neighborhood in OC, but may not be able to afford 400k + and older people who can afford these homes don't want to deal with the schools, etc.  and are established in the suburbs. 

 

IMO, there needs to be more units online that range from 150-250k, even if that means no granite, hardwood, etc. 

 

Income/yr Income/mnth after 28% tax

$50,000.00 $4,166.67 $3,000.00

$60,000.00 $5,000.00 $3,600.00

$70,000.00 $5,833.33 $4,200.00

$80,000.00 $6,666.67 $4,800.00

$90,000.00 $7,500.00 $5,400.00

$100,000.00 $8,333.33 $6,000.00

$110,000.00 $9,166.67 $6,600.00

$120,000.00 $10,000.00 $7,200.00

$130,000.00 $10,833.33 $7,800.00

$140,000.00 $11,666.67 $8,400.00

$150,000.00 $12,500.00 $9,000.00

$160,000.00 $13,333.33 $9,600.00

$170,000.00 $14,166.67 $10,200.00

$180,000.00 $15,000.00 $10,800.00

$190,000.00 $15,833.33 $11,400.00

$200,000.00 $16,666.67 $12,000.00

Assuming 10% down, 30 year fixed, 5.5%:

 

Home Price Downpayment Interest Rate Pymt/Mnth Pymnt/yr

$200,000.00 $20,000.00 5.50% $1,022.02 $12,264.24

$250,000.00 $25,000.00 5.50% $1,277.53 $15,330.30

$300,000.00 $30,000.00 5.50% $1,533.03 $18,396.36

$350,000.00 $35,000.00 5.50% $1,788.54 $21,462.42

$400,000.00 $40,000.00 5.50% $2,044.04 $24,528.48

$450,000.00 $45,000.00 5.50% $2,299.55 $27,594.55

$500,000.00 $50,000.00 5.50% $2,555.05 $30,660.61

$550,000.00 $55,000.00 5.50% $2,810.56 $33,726.67

$600,000.00 $60,000.00 5.50% $3,066.06 $36,792.73

$650,000.00 $65,000.00 5.50% $3,321.57 $39,858.79

$700,000.00 $70,000.00 5.50% $3,577.07 $42,924.85

$750,000.00 $75,000.00 5.50% $3,832.58 $45,990.91

$800,000.00 $80,000.00 5.50% $4,088.08 $49,056.97

$850,000.00 $85,000.00 5.50% $4,343.59 $52,123.03

$900,000.00 $90,000.00 5.50% $4,599.09 $55,189.09

$950,000.00 $95,000.00 5.50% $4,854.60 $58,255.15

 

^

Thanks for posting that. I remember hearing that a rule of thumb when buying a house is 2.5 times your annual salary. If the starting prices are say $450K, that would mean that people would have to have a annual household income of $180K. Thats a lot of money.

"a rule of thumb when buying a house is 2.5 times your annual salary."

 

That's what I've heard as well - still, I'm looking at a condo that's maybe 1.1 times my annual salary.  :oops:

I absolutely agree.  The price points are unrealistic for a lot of these developments.  I like to see that the Jay Hotel is going to start around $200,000.  Hopefully it will contain  a lot of $200,000 units and not just 3 or 4 with the rest going for over $300,000.  A lot more people would buy if units cost $200,000.  The Fries & Schuele building sold its 200,000 very quickly.