November 14, 201212 yr ^In an urban area? Why would anyone who has express craft food at their finger tips two blocks away go to McDonalds? Those who like quality are not going to McDonalds. Uh, people that may not have the time right now to go to some of the places that you're talking about. I know I don't always have the time to go to OCB or Noodlecat. Sometimes I have to just grab what I can get when I'm on the go. The idea that you can say with absolute certainty what large groups of people do just because they frequent a McDonald's is absurd and snobbish. Everybody who goes to fast food restaurants don't litter. In fact, I would venture to say that most don't. Teenagers, that's a different story. But they're not the only ones that go to fast food restaurants. So yes that is stereotypical, yes that is snobbish, and yes that is a gross overgeneralization of people.
November 14, 201212 yr My point throughout the whole thread is that it is an opportunity for increased litter. THats it. Spare me the snob accusations. I can back my claim up with my daily trash pick up from the McDonalds at Detroit/West 70th. Even if it 10% of McDonalds eaters who litter, thats too much for this neighborhood. You want a McDonalds here? Fine. Im sure you can find all the perceived benefits in the world and fist pump for a business going there. But if the current OC residents are bent about it, i cant imagine how potential OC residents feel.
November 14, 201212 yr ^In an urban area? Why would anyone who has express craft food at their finger tips two blocks away go to McDonalds? Those who like quality are not going to McDonalds. Uh, people that may not have the time right now to go to some of the places that you're talking about. I know I don't always have the time to go to OCB or Noodlecat. Sometimes I have to just grab what I can get when I'm on the go. The idea that you can say with absolute certainty what large groups of people do just because they frequent a McDonald's is absurd and snobbish. Everybody who goes to fast food restaurants don't litter. In fact, I would venture to say that most don't. Teenagers, that's a different story. But they're not the only ones that go to fast food restaurants. So yes that is stereotypical, yes that is snobbish, and yes that is a gross overgeneralization of people. Word. Not everyone can afford "craft food" all the time, nor can everyone always wait for it. More options are better than less. I don't want this area to look like W117th any more than anyone else does, but it would take a lot of fast food and a lot of demolition before that's a concern. Replacing a completely suburban empty video store with an urban-style McDonalds seems like a step forward here, however incremental. The trash problem is a legitimate one, but I think a SID can do wonders for that sort of thing. SID's require businesses with deep pockets.
November 14, 201212 yr inlovewithCLE + BelievelandD1, you've both made your points. If you want engage further in a personal debate, we have the personal messaging feature available here at UO. Thanks. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 16, 201212 yr Wayfinding signs and maps in Ohio City....pretty neat: http://freshwatercleveland.com/features/wayfinding111512.aspx
November 16, 201212 yr Open businesses are good for urban home values. A drive thru would be far less good, especially for adjacent residential, but still a net gain for most properties in the area. People like being able to go to things. Unless it refuses to serve pedestrians, a McDonalds would add something useful the neighborhood. And for many who live there, McJobs are infinitely better than no jobs. 327, I'm surprised to hear this from you after all the words you spent saying how new businesses that wanted to build along Euclid Avenue in Midtown should not because it wasn't the right fit for the neighborhood. You'd rather Midtown sit as empty lots until the perfect use came around but now you're fighting for a McDonalds?
November 24, 201212 yr I really like the design and think it fits into the neighborhood nicely. 2923 Jay Avenue - New construction
November 24, 201212 yr Let's hope this is the beginning of a large influx of infill homes to fill some of the scattered vacant lots around the neighborhood.
November 24, 201212 yr There are a number of issues with a McDonald's at that location. If you want to look at it from a purely practical "does this work?" situation, it clearly does not (I, of course, look at it from the "is this a degradation to my neighborhood and does it harm the quality of life in my community?" in which there are very clear answers). McD's developers have changed the design of the space a number of times trying to figure out how it can work in that space. It just doesn't. It's not a large enough space for what they desire. They aren't planning to build a fancy, urbanist-satisfying, sidewalk-fronting building like the one someone posted above. They plan to build your typical crappy double drive-thru McD's. Wherever it's located on the lot, the traffic in the drive-thru line will line the street in no-time. Also, as for the jobs argument, they're going to shut the one down on Detroit if this is built, so we'll have the same number of low-paying, demeaning jobs AND an empty building on Detroit. I was very much in support of the permanent supportive housing project and I'm sad that we're fighting this fight now.
November 25, 201212 yr Also, as for the jobs argument, they're going to shut the one down on Detroit if this is built, so we'll have the same number of low-paying, demeaning jobs AND an empty building on Detroit. I had heard this same thing. To me, I read this as a win for DS and a loss for OC. I doubt the DS lot will be empty for long.
November 26, 201212 yr Is there anything citizens can do to stop the McD's? Yes, stop buying their products. Sorry, sometimes being a smartass comes so naturally to me. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 26, 201212 yr More Info Here - https://www.facebook.com/SayNoToMcDonaldsInOhioCity/?utm_source=supporter_message&utm_medium=email
November 26, 201212 yr Depending how far along this McD's is in the planning stages, you could at the very least require some approval of its design before construction with stipulations to make it more urban-friendly...as far as that is possible.
November 26, 201212 yr I really like the design and think it fits into the neighborhood nicely. 2923 Jay Avenue - New construction This is a different address on Jay -- note how big this house would be....... 9:30 Ward 3 Board of Zoning Appeals November 26, 2012 Calendar No. 12-188: 2925 Jay Avenue Joe Cimperman 16 Notices Michael Wojtanowski, owner, appeals to erect a 3,926 square foot one family, two-story house and three car garage on a 40’ x 107.50’ corner lot in a B1 Two-Family District; contrary to Section 355.04 a gross floor area of 3,926 is proposed and the maximum gross floor area permitted is 2,150 for a 4,300 square foot lot in a “B” area district; and by the provisions under Section 357.13(b)(4) an open porch is a permitted side street encroachment provided it does not extend within 10 feet of the street line and the proposed porch is 2 feet from the street line; aggregate side yards shall not be less than one-half the main building height, requiring 15 feet where 9’6” are pro-posed; and contrary to Section 357.09(b) the proposed building will be within 3 to 6 feet and not the required 10 feet from a main building on an adjoining lot; and a fence six feet high is proposed along the interior side lot line approximately three feet from the residence on the adjoining lot contrary to Section 358.04(a) in the Cleveland Codified Ordinances. (Filed 10-25-12) http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2012/crr11-26-2012.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 26, 201212 yr Open businesses are good for urban home values. A drive thru would be far less good, especially for adjacent residential, but still a net gain for most properties in the area. People like being able to go to things. Unless it refuses to serve pedestrians, a McDonalds would add something useful the neighborhood. And for many who live there, McJobs are infinitely better than no jobs. 327, I'm surprised to hear this from you after all the words you spent saying how new businesses that wanted to build along Euclid Avenue in Midtown should not because it wasn't the right fit for the neighborhood. You'd rather Midtown sit as empty lots until the perfect use came around but now you're fighting for a McDonalds? the interesting thing about McDonalds or most other Fast food businesses is that they in a technical sense require a market area of( X number of persons per Square mile). there is a natural inertia towards new construction of any new business, that gives the investor a bit more security, perfect example would be Chipolte in downtown, there has been enough of a market for it for some time but the investor needed a bit more assurance that the market was sound before they made a move (I.E. that the estimated market Area was sound and Growing) back to Ohio city and a mass market restaurant. first the market area for a non Drive Thru restaurant has to be very dense because Transportation costs are measured in time and unlike a destination restaurant that has only one location, McDonalds has thousands, and you are not going to convince people to go to a Ohio City location over one much easier to get to by car like Denision, or west 73rd. It just doesn't make sense right now to place a walk up location in OC right now, but if an between restaurant like Jimmy Johns, Penn Station, or Five Guys could be viable if the appropriate retail spaces become available. but no Walk up McDonalds until population density and neighborhood vibrancy increases substantially, I'd look to see a new Walk Up McDonalds in Downtown or UC well before one in Ohio City.
November 26, 201212 yr ^I think you're conflating drive-through with adequate parking. Even without a drive-through, a McDonalds need not survive on walk-up customers if it is decently parked. Is there anything citizens can do to stop the McD's? The only leverage citizens have will be based on any discretionary approvals the McDonalds needs to comply with zoning or to pass through design review. X mentioned that there is now a form-based zoning overlay (or a straight up form-based district) on Lorain now. If this is so, a conventional McDonalds would need a variance for its craptacular site plan and there would be a hearing at which residents could argue against it. Hopefully people here will keep their eye on the variance and various design review calendars and give a shout out if this project pops up. Personally, I would much rather live near the supportive housing project than a conventional McDonalds, and for pure quality of life reasons, not because I'm a mushy liberal.
November 26, 201212 yr Also, I don't think it's been posted here that the Transformer Station is expecting a February 1 opening data: http://www.transformerstation.org/ Only about two months away!
November 26, 201212 yr ^I think you're conflating drive-through with adequate parking. Even without a drive-through, a McDonalds need not survive on walk-up customers if it is decently parked. have even seen a McDonalds drive thru, in an urban context with massing like the existing massing on west 25th? Jimmy Johns, Penn Station, or Five Guys would fit the area infinitely better.
November 26, 201212 yr ^I don't follow. A drive through on West 25th? As long as the design considerations are the same (no drive thru, no waiver of any form-based requirements), I would be more or less indifferent between McDonalds or any of the other meh chain places you list. All of them would likely require substantial parking. Whether or not one of them would be more willing to meet enforced site plan requirements versus staying out of the neighborhood is entirely up to them.
November 27, 201212 yr FYI... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25309.msg651395.html#msg651395 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 27, 201212 yr FYI: Say No to McDonald's in Ohio City https://www.facebook.com/SayNoToMcDonaldsInOhioCity?ref=ts&fref=ts "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 27, 201212 yr Demolition of 3700 Lorain is back on the Landmarks Commission agenda..... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2492.msg648814.html#msg648814 Among all the pictures shown at the above link, the commission added another photo of the building shown in the background of this 1940s-era street scene along Lorain...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 28, 201212 yr That's depressing how it looks now in comparison. What are the odds the site plan for new construction there actually gets built?
November 28, 201212 yr Look forward to some big news coming on Wednesday about the little neighborhood around the Transformer Station!
November 28, 201212 yr Look forward to some big news coming on Wednesday about the little neighborhood around the Transformer Station! Wednesday, as in today?
November 28, 201212 yr Demolition of 3700 Lorain is back on the Landmarks Commission agenda..... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2492.msg648814.html#msg648814 Among all the pictures shown at the above link, the commission added another photo of the building shown in the background of this 1940s-era street scene along Lorain...... I just looked up this address on streetview. That is depressing. On a lighter note, I have a few friends who went to Saint Ignatius. I didn't know it was in Ohio City.
November 30, 201212 yr Councilman Cimperman sent out this e-mail earlier today about the proposed McDonald's.... Dear Ohio City stakeholder: On November 29th, I received a letter from Mr. Michael Lewis, Area Real Estate Manager of the Ohio region of McDonalds USA. This letter contained much information regarding the proposal to relocate the McDonalds located at W. 70th and Detroit to a new site at Fulton and Lorain. This was the first time I officially learned of the plans to build a fully operational two-lane drive-thru McDonalds in the heart of Ohio City, though plans have been floated around for several weeks. While I appreciated learning directly from the McDonalds Corporation of the plans to move this proposal forward through Ohio City Design Review, Cleveland Landmarks Commission, and the City Planning Commission, I have also been fortunate enough to have had dozens of conversations and attend two large group meetings with residents who have grave concerns. These concerns begin with the increased traffic on Fulton and on West 38th Street that would stem from the drive-thru’s entry and exit points. As many of you know, Fulton serves as a main channel in and out of the city, particularly with regional road construction limiting alternative routes. West 38th Street is a fully residential street with already narrow passageways due to cars parked on both sides of the street. In addition to concerns ranging from blocked driveways, blocked access for emergency and police vehicles, and increased potential for dangerous pedestrian-vehicle traffic interactions, I share in the residents’ concerns for our children, who use the park and pool at the end of the street. In addition, residents have asked me to be mindful of the increased number of student pedestrians as a result of the two new schools being built in this neighborhood. The amount of pedestrians and bicyclists around this site has dramatically increased as well. Secondly, the scope of this project is immense, and to put a two-lane drive-thru in a site that is already tight between houses and a thriving neighborhood print-design shop seems to me to be putting ten pounds of potatoes in a five-pound bag. This is a neighborhood known for its unique storefronts, its organic economic development growth, and its commitment to local food. While I think new construction and investment should be applauded, it cannot happen at the expense of the quality of life of the people it purports to serve. The community meeting on December 11th at 6:30pm at Franklin Circle Church (at the corners of Franklin and Fulton) to which you are all most invited is an opportunity for residents directly impacted and those in the neighborhood to have questions answered, make statements, learn more, and decide for themselves whether this proposal should move forward or not. I want to be very clear why I use the word proposal. The community’s will has to be listened to. It is my hope that, as this discussion continues, you, the stakeholders of Ohio City, will be able to participate and influence the outcome. Within this neighborhood’s DNA is public discourse, civic and civil communication, and a commitment to plan not just for today but for two decades from now. From the residents with whom I’ve spoken and for the reasons listed above, I cannot support this proposed development at this time, in this location, in this way. While I wish that the McDonalds Corporation had come to you before it went to design review and before you heard about it in this manner, I think it is critical that the community use this opportunity to gather and inform one another and the McDonalds Corporation. This will be the community’s first opportunity to respond to this proposal. Should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me at [email protected] or 216.215.6765. Respectfully, Joe Cimperman Councilman, Ward 3 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 30, 201212 yr Well said. Cimperman is one of the best councilmen Cleveland has had in quite a while. It's interesting though, that this is being called a "relocation" involving the current McDonalds on Detroit & W. 70th. That's a very high traffic area, I have to imagine that location does fairly well. I wonder what would possibly go back in that location if McDonalds left?
November 30, 201212 yr McDowell's? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 30, 201212 yr Well said. Cimperman is one of the best councilmen Cleveland has had in quite a while. It's interesting though, that this is being called a "relocation" involving the current McDonalds on Detroit & W. 70th. That's a very high traffic area, I have to imagine that location does fairly well. I wonder what would possibly go back in that location if McDonalds left? I agree about Cimperman. Imagine that! A councilman that wants his consituents input before making a decision!
December 3, 201212 yr Interesting note about new legislation tightening regulation of drive-thrus in the Market District ... Would love to see this type of pedestrian-orientation in neighborhood downtowns citywide. Ohio City residents fight to keep McDonald's franchise out Leila Atassi, The Plain Dealer December 03, 2012 CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Residents in Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood, which has developed a reputation in recent years as a bastion of the local-food movement, say they are fighting to keep fast-food giant McDonald's from opening a franchise on a site abutting a residential street that they say would endanger pedestrians with its busy drive-through and undermine what the West Side enclave represents. The corporation's preliminary plans call for one of its restaurants currently on Detroit Road in Cleveland's Gordon Square Arts District to be relocated to Lorain Avenue, between Fulton Road and West 38th Street. If McDonald's has its way, the 4,200-square-foot restaurant will feature a parking lot with 18 spaces and, most contentiously, double drive-through lanes and a driveway that empties onto West 38th ... ... More at http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/tremont_residents_fight_to_kee.html#incart_m-rpt-2
December 3, 201212 yr the new legislation tightens requirements for drive thru's, but it's still full of holes. "Provide a traffic study showing fewer than 50% of customers will use the drive thru...." Please, this is hardly a roadblock. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The Planning Commission is already on the verge of being sued for exclusionary zoning for this and they know it.
December 3, 201212 yr Best case scenario, we would end up with what Lakewood got which is neither terrible nor good but still not attractive for this area.
December 4, 201212 yr Am I the only person here who really doesn't understand what all this fuss is about? Guys, it's just a McDonalds. It's not stifling Ohio City's progress, it's not bringing in undesirables, we're not losing some amazing historical landmark, there won't be a tsunami of noise, and it's not going to cause the great ecodisaster of the 21st century. It's not an after-hours hip hop club, it's not a Super Walmart, it's not Cthulhu; it's just a McDonalds. Sometimes you need a quick cheapo "burger" and fries.
December 4, 201212 yr Am I the only person here who really doesn't understand what all this fuss is about? Guys, it's just a McDonalds. It's not stifling Ohio City's progress, it's not bringing in undesirables, we're not losing some amazing historical landmark, there won't be a tsunami of noise, and it's not going to cause the great ecodisaster of the 21st century. It's not an after-hours hip hop club, it's not a Super Walmart, it's not Cthulhu; it's just a McDonalds. Sometimes you need a quick cheapo "burger" and fries. I agree with you. This is much ado about nothing and food snobbery
December 4, 201212 yr ^I tend to agree. I'm not as concerned about McDonald's themselves but I am concerned about the design of the building. If an appropriate urban design is proposed by McDonald's then I have absolutely no problem with the development. I do, however, still have concerns about the location they are vacating. What is the plan for that location? Will the building be demolished and the land made ready for development or is McDonald's going to leave a blighted, useless former restaurant on the site? My feathers also go up when I hear people making fun of the protesters and saying they can't understand why they would be against a business wanting to create jobs in their neighborhood. First of all there will be no net jobs created since they are vacating the current location on Detroit. Second I have absolutely no problem with residents demanding more from large corporations that wish to locate in their neighborhood. At the very least make McDonald's aware of their surroundings and aware that the residents do care.
December 4, 201212 yr The location on Detroit will be demo'd but the site will be repurposed with a suburban style bank branch (Key, Fifth Third, Charter One, etc) that will be low rise & have too much parking & a drive through lane. This new bank branch is probably what's driving the McDonalds move in the first place. I know they've been actively looking for property in this stretch along Detroit, the McDonalds location was probably the lone good option. I'm sure Councilman Zone knows as much but isn't saying so. The real problem here is that the City & neighborhood residents of Ohio City are trying to find something to exclude the McDonalds but they really don't have much. If they had the foresight to update their zoning requirements for neighborhoods like this, they could easily have code which would either exclude a suburban style store or else make it fit the area in a much less intrusive manner. Changes might include something that requires the lot to be 70% occupied by building and no more than 30% driveway & parking, a requirement for multi-story buildings for any new development, etc
December 4, 201212 yr Yep. The reason why the City of Westlake can tell developers how to design their buildings or where in the city to put them is because they tied their development guideplan to zoning, thus it carries the force of law. Through its guideplan, Cleveland says it wants X land use but gets Z proposed by the property owner while its zoning code for that location can allow either X or Z. So Cleveland's lacks the ability to enforce its masterplan. Westlake's masterplan has been challenged by developers with one (Kmart) taking its challenge all the way to the US Supreme Court before losing. Cleveland's application of zoning is simply too vague to guide land use in the way that it wants. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 4, 201212 yr I am going to stick with my concern about litter. I see the massive amounts of litter that come from the Mcdonalds on detroit right now.
December 4, 201212 yr If what KJP says is true, then protest should be directed at Cleveland Zoning instead of McDonald's.
December 4, 201212 yr I agree with Hootenany. I have no problem with McDonald's. In fact I love the occasional double cheeseburger. Nothing wrong with cheap, late night food available for the surrounding area. My problem is with the probable site design and increased traffic. The site needs something built up to the street, with actual entrances on the street -- not just a blank wall along the sidewalk. A typical McDonalds is 60% parking with a "through-way" in front of the store allowing people to circle around the building. The new one in Lakewood is only barely better than average.
December 4, 201212 yr Look forward to some big news coming on Wednesday about the little neighborhood around the Transformer Station! Should we be looking for news on this tomorrow? We need it after a week of this Mcdonalds B.S.
December 4, 201212 yr Am I the only person here who really doesn't understand what all this fuss is about? Guys, it's just a McDonalds. It's not stifling Ohio City's progress, it's not bringing in undesirables, we're not losing some amazing historical landmark, there won't be a tsunami of noise, and it's not going to cause the great ecodisaster of the 21st century. It's not an after-hours hip hop club, it's not a Super Walmart, it's not Cthulhu; it's just a McDonalds. Sometimes you need a quick cheapo "burger" and fries. In fairness, much of this opposition has nothing to do with anti-McDonalds hysteria. It's more an urban design issue for many of us. If you're serious about cultivating walkable neighborhood retail, you impose certain site plan constraints. Double-loaded drive-thrus emptying out onto residential streets are not awesome, and not exactly compatible with this type of environment. We don't have to layer on toothsome form-based requirements on every corridor, but can't we at least do it on some? And if so, wouldn't Lorain and Detroit (and all of Euclid) be near the top of the list? Gottaplan is right. Going forward, time to zone like we mean it.
December 4, 201212 yr Am I the only person here who really doesn't understand what all this fuss is about? Guys, it's just a McDonalds. It's not stifling Ohio City's progress, it's not bringing in undesirables, we're not losing some amazing historical landmark, there won't be a tsunami of noise, and it's not going to cause the great ecodisaster of the 21st century. It's not an after-hours hip hop club, it's not a Super Walmart, it's not Cthulhu; it's just a McDonalds. Sometimes you need a quick cheapo "burger" and fries. I have no problem where it is going, much ado about nothing, in the end it will make the area more attractive to the community not less.
December 4, 201212 yr ^Lucky you are not the homeowner who is going to have a double lane take out window feet from your house.
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