"The developer envisions the lower-cost apartments as homes for teachers, police officers, artists and restaurant workers."

 

Seems he just wants to make it affordable for people in various professions to enjoy the amenities of Ohio City without paying an astronomical price.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_gallery

 

Just to be clear, it's more profitable to build on the high end of the  market.  Snavely will likely be using Low Income Housing Tax Credits (LIHTC) to more easily finance the project.  "Affordable" units are rarely ever built out of the kindness of the developers heart.  There are lucrative incentives to encourage their creation.

"The developer envisions the lower-cost apartments as homes for teachers, police officers, artists and restaurant workers."

 

Seems he just wants to make it affordable for people in various professions to enjoy the amenities of Ohio City without paying an astronomical price.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_gallery

 

Just to be clear, it's more profitable to build on the high end of the  market.  Snavely will likely be using Low Income Housing Tax Credits (LIHTC) to more easily finance the project.  "Affordable" units are rarely ever built out of the kindness of the developers heart.  There are lucrative incentives to encourage their creation.

Well I wasn't trying to imply that he was doing it out of kindness of his heart, but to show who he was trying to market and that it necessarily wouldn't be a section 8 building.

"The developer envisions the lower-cost apartments as homes for teachers, police officers, artists and restaurant workers."

 

Seems he just wants to make it affordable for people in various professions to enjoy the amenities of Ohio City without paying an astronomical price.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_gallery

 

Just to be clear, it's more profitable to build on the high end of the  market.  Snavely will likely be using Low Income Housing Tax Credits (LIHTC) to more easily finance the project.  "Affordable" units are rarely ever built out of the kindness of the developers heart.  There are lucrative incentives to encourage their creation.

Well I wasn't trying to imply that he was doing it out of kindness of his heart, but to show who he was trying to market and that it necessarily wouldn't be a section 8 building.

 

Understood, thanks.

Michelle J. McFee ‏mjarboe[/member]  19m19 minutes ago

Riffing on today's story: #tbt Forest City Savings & Trust. West 25th + Detroit. Circa 1910. via #CLE Memory Project

 

 

Tom McNair ‏@tsmcnair  5m5 minutes ago

mjarboe[/member] time to bring the cupola back!

 

"Mixed income" rarely if ever happens.  The vast majority of people with options do not choose to live in close proximity to public housing.  The exception may be low income senior citizen housing.  Indeed, if I wanted to sell a project and was worried about hearing the "g word", that's what I would do.

 

 

I actually agree that most market rate renters, all else equal, would choose to live somewhere without income-restricted units. I just don't think it really matters. At most it means Snavely will have to price its market rate units in this project just slightly below the top of the market to make them relatively more attractive. More likely, market renters will have no idea some units are income restricted.

"Mixed income" rarely if ever happens.  The vast majority of people with options do not choose to live in close proximity to public housing.  The exception may be low income senior citizen housing.  Indeed, if I wanted to sell a project and was worried about hearing the "g word", that's what I would do.

 

Again, we rejoin the alternate universe of eRocc. Most buildings which use the low-income tax credits are mixed income. There are simply too many to name, just in Cleveland. But one of the largest and longest-continuing is the National Terminals Building on West 9th.

 

EDIT: Don't take my word for what makes a city work....

 

TODERIAN UrbanWORKS ‏@TODUrbanWORKS  4m4 minutes ago

“Mix the city & the people rather than dispersing them. Cities need to be compact & complex." http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/dec/08/jan-gehl-make-cities-liveable-urban-rethinker?utm_content=buffer71bb4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Not sure if it's been reported here or not, but National Terminals, which was bought relatively recently, will be doing a complete renovation of the building.  Originally renovated in the mid-1990's it's well overdue.  But in reference to KJP's comment on low/mixed income, that will surely be eliminated in NT as the units are completed and rents double.

Annnnd let's get back on topic, thanks!

Michelle J. McFee ‏mjarboe[/member]  19m19 minutes ago

Riffing on today's story: #tbt Forest City Savings & Trust. West 25th + Detroit. Circa 1910. via #CLE Memory Project

 

 

Tom McNair ‏@tsmcnair  5m5 minutes ago

mjarboe[/member] time to bring the cupola back!

 

If I'm not mistaken, this building connects underground with the subway.

 

Hmmmm

Indeed it does. It is really quite a gorgeous connection as well. Marble everywhere.

^Yes that's the next big announcement.  40 mile heavy rail subway from Rocky River down Detroit, up Euclid to Cedar and then out Cedar to I-271.  Good thing there is a subway entrance in that building already.  It will save about .00001 percent on the 10 billion dollar project.  Also heard they are going to try to get it completed for the RNC convention :wink:

^Yes that's the next big announcement.  40 mile heavy rail subway from Rocky River down Detroit, up Euclid to Cedar and then out Cedar to I-271.  Good thing there is a subway entrance in that building already.  It will save about .00001 percent on the 10 billion dollar project.  Also heard they are going to try to get it completed for the RNC convention :wink:

 

Haha!! Well they've got to develop that subway/bridge space sometime. Something as simple as a bikeway-walkway with some retail kiosks along the way would be nice.

 

Think of it, you could go from that building into Tower City without having to brave the elements. How's that for a selling point?

^Yes that's the next big announcement.  40 mile heavy rail subway from Rocky River down Detroit, up Euclid to Cedar and then out Cedar to I-271.  Good thing there is a subway entrance in that building already.  It will save about .00001 percent on the 10 billion dollar project.  Also heard they are going to try to get it completed for the RNC convention :wink:

 

We were thinking of something a little more scaled down, but still using two of the six track spaces in the Detroit-Superior bridge's subway deck....

 

 

^ I was thinking of that the other day. A west-bound streetcar along Detroit that goes from Public Square to Detroit-Shoreway or Cudell, and an east-bound streetcar along Superior that goes from Public Square to Asiatown or E. 55. If Cincinnati can do it, maybe we can too!

 

But anyway, let's not take this off-topic. I'm sure there's a more relevant thread where we can discuss streetcars in Cleveland.

But anyway, let's not take this off-topic. I'm sure there's a more relevant thread where we can discuss streetcars in Cleveland.

 

Yes, here.....

 

West 25th transit study (which is being steered by RTA to recommend buses): http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,8513.0.html

Cleveland Transit ( ideas for the future): http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.0.html

The north side of Detroit Avenue, looking east on Detroit toward West 25th, in 1975 courtesy of the USEPA. This is a notorious, historic block. Toward the east end of this block was Christie's Lounge where gangster Shondor Birns had a corner booth and held court over the neighborhood since the 1930s. He facilitated a $75,000 loan from the Gambino Family in NYC to Collinwood's Danny Greene to open a late-night gambling spot in Cleveland. [bear with me here...] But Greene wanted to increase his profit so he first used the money to finance a drug deal that was halted by a police raid and the drugs were confiscated. Shondor told Greene the Gambinos wanted their loan re-paid but Greene told the Gambinos "F--- off." A contract was taken out on Greene's life. But Greene turned the tables. The night before Easter, 1975, one of Greene's henchmen Keith Ritson put a remote-control bomb in Birns' sedan, parked on this stretch of Detroit Avenue. When Birns came out of Christy's and approached his car, Ritson pressed the button. Birns' car and body were blown to bits. A friend of mine who worked for WERE-AM back then covered the bombing and said steaming pieces of Shondor were all over the place. of And you thought this stretch was known only for Kiefer's and German food....

 

 

 

This is what that same section looked like in August 2014....

 

I believe Shondor met his demise on Holy Saturday, not St. Patrick's Day,  and parts of him rained down on people going to the Easter Vigil mass at St. Malachi's

 

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=E73ABD6180B44874871A91F6BA5C249C

^Even the streetlights are bland in comparison to back then. Fun story, though (if not for certain individuals involved)!

I actually agree that most market rate renters, all else equal, would choose to live somewhere without income-restricted units. I just don't think it really matters. At most it means Snavely will have to price its market rate units in this project just slightly below the top of the market to make them relatively more attractive. More likely, market renters will have no idea some units are income restricted.

Doesn't seem like that applies here since the low income units will be in their own building.

 

As for the Club Cleveland redevelopment, OCI had a public meeting this past Tuesday and the developer, Vintage, showed us the plans for the building. I can't find the pictures online, but I actually liked the design (can't say the same for most of their other developments) and I liked that the building would be 6 stories tall along Detroit, but steps down to 2 stories along 38th. I believe the covered parking is actually underground as well and there will be a small surface parking lot off the ally. The developer also mentioned that rent would start around $950 a month. Seems like the community is rather supportive of this development.

 

I also was at the landmarks meeting today and it seems like there is some opposition to the Geis apartment project on Clinton. Not sure if it is a small minority, but several neighbors (one representing the law firm next to the site, one from the townhouses across the street, and then another who lives in that newly built federal style house down the street) argued that the project is too dense and would ruin the character of the neighborhood. They disagreed with the architect's assessment that the project would be similar in height to the Ohio City Townhouses that are to the west of the project. They also felt that the community/block club hadn't really been consulted on this project, saying that when the developers were at the meetings it was more of an introduction to the project and that no real details had been shared. The commission did agree that the block club should have a vote on the project before final approval is granted. They also recommended that the building be centered more, increasing the set back along the west property line and perhaps reducing the width of the courtyard. Both the landmarks commission and the Ohio City design review granted conceptual approval. Doesn't seem like the demolition process will be disrupted though. Geis has an option on the propery that ends sometime in mid January.

 

Oh, and Fred Geis did react to the NIMBY neighbor's claims, threatening that he could just use the building as is (industrial use) if he wanted and that he has done so before. I was sitting next to one of the neighbors and she seemed to be ok with that though. I guess she likes having an ugly building with an awful gravel yard next to her.

 

When it comes to the top of Irishtown Bend, I don't expect anything to built there. The Ohio City master plan shows that area as being an extension of the Ohio City Farm. CMHA also plans on demolishing their other properties north of Franklin on top of the hill as well. Last spring my studio class, working with the Trust for Public Land, also developed a plan to use that land as a public/recreation space (the plan can be found here and an interactive map can be found here).

I also was at the landmarks meeting today and it seems like there is some opposition to the Geis apartment project on Clinton. Not sure if it is a small minority, but several neighbors (one representing the law firm next to the site, one from the townhouses across the street, and then another who lives in that newly built federal style house down the street) argued that the project is too dense and would ruin the character of the neighborhood. They disagreed with the architect's assessment that the project would be similar in height to the Ohio City Townhouses that are to the west of the project. They also felt that the community/block club hadn't really been consulted on this project, saying that when the developers were at the meetings it was more of an introduction to the project and that no real details had been shared. The commission did agree that the block club should have a vote on the project before final approval is granted. They also recommended that the building be centered more, increasing the set back along the west property line and perhaps reducing the width of the courtyard. Both the landmarks commission and the Ohio City design review granted conceptual approval. Doesn't seem like the demolition process will be disrupted though. Geis has an option on the propery that ends sometime in mid January.

 

Oh, and Fred Geis did react to the NIMBY neighbor's claims, threatening that he could just use the building as is (industrial use) if he wanted and that he has done so before. I was sitting next to one of the neighbors and she seemed to be ok with that though. I guess she likes having an ugly building with an awful gravel yard next to her.

 

Bbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Good for Fred, he has balls of steel.

Was the woman an older lady? Was it Mary Rose Oakar?

Bbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Good for Fred, he has balls of steel.

Ehh, I don't know if he should have said what he said today so early in the game, especially because I don't feel like the people who voiced opposition are representative of the community's feelings. Oh, and the commission did point out that the Clinton-Franklin Ave. area has a mix of uses with various heights as is, so it's not like there is not a precedent for this project. Like just around the corner on Franklin and 29th there's a 4 story apartment building and then on Clinton and 38th is another 4 story apartment buildings.

 

KJP - There were two women, one was from the law firm (a Ms. Schuster) and I don't know the name of the other woman from the townhouse across the street.

Bbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Good for Fred, he has balls of steel.

Ehh, I don't know if he should have said what he said today so early in the game, especially because I don't feel like the people who voiced opposition are representative of the community's feelings. Oh, and the commission did point out that the Clinton-Franklin Ave. area has a mix of uses with various heights as is, so it's not like there is not a precedent for this project. Like just around the corner on Franklin and 29th there's a 4 story apartment building and then on Clinton and 38th is another 4 story apartment buildings.

 

KJP - There were two women, one was from the law firm (a Ms. Schuster) and I don't know the name of the other woman from the townhouse across the street.

 

Was he super harsh or just a lil' harsh?

Bbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Good for Fred, he has balls of steel.

Ehh, I don't know if he should have said what he said today so early in the game, especially because I don't feel like the people who voiced opposition are representative of the community's feelings. Oh, and the commission did point out that the Clinton-Franklin Ave. area has a mix of uses with various heights as is, so it's not like there is not a precedent for this project. Like just around the corner on Franklin and 29th there's a 4 story apartment building and then on Clinton and 38th is another 4 story apartment buildings.

 

KJP - There were two women, one was from the law firm (a Ms. Schuster) and I don't know the name of the other woman from the townhouse across the street.

 

Was he super harsh or just a lil' harsh?

I wouldn't say he was harsh, just a little passive aggressive. He just shouldn't have reacted to them.

It's easy to criticize the NIMBY's from afar. Is it better than what's there now? Better for the neighborhood? Yes, and yes. Doesn't mean they can't complain if they don't like it.

 

I live across the street from a handful of aging duplexes. I would love to see them razed and replaced with single family homes more like others on my street. Realistically though, if the site were ever redeveloped it would probably be an apartment building or townhomes similar in scale to the one proposed on Clinton. Not sure how I'd feel about it either.

Off the top of my head, this is the first new apartment building of any size to be built in the city on a block of otherwise single family houses in many years. Not too surprising not everyone loves it.  The direct entries to the street-facing ground floor units do mimic townhouses to some extent, though.

 

I know this land has had industry/warehousing on it for decades (centuries?) but I'm kind of astonished it's still zoned for industrial.

I know this land has had industry/warehousing on it for decades (centuries?) but I'm kind of astonished it's still zoned for industrial.

 

The Burns-Bowe Baking Company. Once claimed to be Cleveland's largest supplier of pies. The explanation for the location in the middle of a residential neighborhood is that they started the business in a home there and then expanded. Looks like a portion of the current building was there by 1898. There were houses in front of it on Clinton (where the "parking lot" is now) into at least the 1920's.

 

 

When it comes to the top of Irishtown Bend, I don't expect anything to built there. The Ohio City master plan shows that area as being an extension of the Ohio City Farm. CMHA also plans on demolishing their other properties north of Franklin on top of the hill as well. Last spring my studio class, working with the Trust for Public Land, also developed a plan to use that land as a public/recreation space (the plan can be found here and an interactive map can be found here).

 

How far north of Franklin?

 

It's the area between the Shoreway and the old river that IMNSHO has mega potential.

Was the woman an older lady? Was it Mary Rose Oakar?

 

Hey there KJP -

 

The three residents who spoke were Nancy Schuster (an attorney whose law firm is next door to the development site), Alex Frondorf and Barbara Belovich. Frondorf and Belovich live nearby.

 

Michelle

Hey there MJ -

 

Thanks! BTW, I hope that USEPA photo from 1975 I posted on the prior page might be of some interest to you. I notice you like historical pics! OMG, I just referred to a picture taken 8 years after I was born as "historical"....  :oops:

Hey there MJ -

 

Thanks! BTW, I hope that USEPA photo from 1975 I posted on the prior page might be of some interest to you. I notice you like historical pics! OMG, I just referred to a picture taken 8 years after I was born as "historical"....  :oops:

 

Very cool picture! I hadn't seen that one before.

 

/m

Geis joint venture pursues Ohio City apartment project, but some neighbors push back

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A developer group aims to demolish an Ohio City industrial building and replace it with 70 apartments, in a project that's generating chatter - and a bit of pushback - from neighbors on surrounding residential streets.

 

Fred Geis and his son, Ethan, have teamed up with residential developer Chad Kertesz on the proposed makeover of 3007 Clinton Ave. They're pitching a U-shaped, four-story apartment building on the current site of the Storer Meat Co. distribution facility.

 

The proposal is part of a rental-housing push in downtown Cleveland and a handful of growing city neighborhoods. In Ohio City, developers still are tying up historic buildings for residential conversions. But they're also grabbing sites for ground-up construction, for anything from 60 to several hundred units.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/geis_joint_venture_pursues_ohi.html#incart_more_business

This photo from that cleveland.com article gives a decent sense of the scale as viewed from the street, in the context of the neighboring houses. If the perspective is technically accurate, really doesn't look so hulking.

 

Can't say I love the design though.  I sort of loathe the vertical window strips on the front facade.

See the graphics I posted to see the scale with respect to surrounding structures.

 

When it comes to the top of Irishtown Bend, I don't expect anything to built there. The Ohio City master plan shows that area as being an extension of the Ohio City Farm. CMHA also plans on demolishing their other properties north of Franklin on top of the hill as well. Last spring my studio class, working with the Trust for Public Land, also developed a plan to use that land as a public/recreation space (the plan can be found here and an interactive map can be found here).

 

How far north of Franklin?

 

It's the area between the Shoreway and the old river that IMNSHO has mega potential.

 

Lakeview terrace is a bad location develop... why?  because it often smells like the sewage treatment plant it is next too. 

 

imagine this...

 

$300,000 condos, with a view of a salt mine and mountains of bulk minerals, matched with a unique odor of raw sewage, mmm. that is prime land for development, which is why they built the housing project there in the first place.

 

When it comes to the top of Irishtown Bend, I don't expect anything to built there. The Ohio City master plan shows that area as being an extension of the Ohio City Farm. CMHA also plans on demolishing their other properties north of Franklin on top of the hill as well. Last spring my studio class, working with the Trust for Public Land, also developed a plan to use that land as a public/recreation space (the plan can be found here and an interactive map can be found here).

 

How far north of Franklin?

 

It's the area between the Shoreway and the old river that IMNSHO has mega potential.

 

Lakeview terrace is a bad location develop... why?  because it often smells like the sewage treatment plant it is next too. 

 

imagine this...

 

$300,000 condos, with a view of a salt mine and mountains of bulk minerals, matched with a unique odor of raw sewage, mmm. that is prime land for development, which is why they built the housing project there in the first place.

I guess I should have been clearer...again, I'm talking about the CMHA owned land/buildings ON TOP of Irishtown Bend north of Franklin, south of Detroit and east of 25th. So, here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zEDLLlW6oJuE.koIT8mvbO2D0

I guess I should have been clearer...again, I'm talking about the CMHA owned land/buildings ON TOP of Irishtown Bend north of Franklin, south of Detroit and east of 25th. So, here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zEDLLlW6oJuE.koIT8mvbO2D0

 

The problem is those are sliding into the river.  There's some discussion about making that area a park.

^I know.  That's what I said originally.

I like the design of the building.  Although missing the mature trees which really give character to the neighborhood, the building seems like a modern version of what graces this area of Cleveland Heights - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26396.msg580663.html#msg580663

Goodbye Club Cleveland... Hello Edge 32 Apartments

Glad to see this is moving forward.

 

Any chance those two non-descript buildings between this project and the new Mariner's (spelling?) Watch apartment building will be purchased, demoed and development?  I believe an active business is in at least one of them but they really are such eyesores perched between these two new buildings.

I was wondering about the fate of those buildings as well.  I believe Ohio City Pasta is in one of them.

More graphics of the Edge 32 apartments on Detroit Avenue at West 32nd are here and below....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/12192014/index.php

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why the storefronts are away from the sidewalk. The brick facade and second-floor patio "wall off" the sides of the storefront, making it less visible for people walking by. Looks like bad business to me.

 

Glad this project is moving forward, even if it is ugly.

I think this looks great.  Like the way it steps down in the back to the less dense portion of the block.

I don't understand why the storefronts are away from the sidewalk. The brick facade and second-floor patio "wall off" the sides of the storefront, making it less visible for people walking by. Looks like bad business to me.

 

Glad this project is moving forward, even if it is ugly.

 

Huh? Looks like the storefronts are basically right up to the sidewalk, with a bit of extra space for some outdoor seating. And the small overhang from the balcony above means there is somewhere for people to stand out from the elements while waiting to get in, waiting for a car/taxi while leaving, etc. Seems like good business for a city with our weather.

 

Aesthetically, is it a 10/10? No. But I actually don't think it's ugly at all, and it's certainly a dramatic improvement from what's there now. And it gets us one small step closer down Detroit to Gordon Square.

Huh? Looks like the storefronts are basically right up to the sidewalk, with a bit of extra space for some outdoor seating. And the small overhang from the balcony above means there is somewhere for people to stand out from the elements while waiting to get in, waiting for a car/taxi while leaving, etc. Seems like good business for a city with our weather.

 

For retail that is literally just a few feet from the sidewalk, I'd expect it to be more visible. Removing the brick facade on the sides would help. Or even better, make the storefront flush with the second floor balcony with large opening glass curtains for more seating, like at Townhall on W.25th.

 

edit: Maybe it'll look fine in reality. It was just a thought I had looking at the renderings.

Huh? Looks like the storefronts are basically right up to the sidewalk, with a bit of extra space for some outdoor seating. And the small overhang from the balcony above means there is somewhere for people to stand out from the elements while waiting to get in, waiting for a car/taxi while leaving, etc. Seems like good business for a city with our weather.

 

For retail that is literally just a few feet from the sidewalk, I'd expect it to be more visible. Removing the brick facade on the sides would help. Or even better, make the storefront flush with the second floor balcony with large opening glass curtains for more seating, like at Townhall on W.25th.

 

edit: Maybe it'll look fine in reality. It was just a thought I had looking at the renderings.

 

That's not a bad thought really. The only reason I see for it being setback is that they are showing some outdoor seating so maybe they are thinking it's a restaurant. If it's strictly retail though they are losing potential rent producing space.

I'm sure they have their reasoning.

West Side Market parking problems hurt holiday business

Vendors claim parking consumed by new bar patrons

Joe Pagonakis

4:30 PM, Dec 19, 2014

7:13 PM, Dec 19, 2014

 

CLEVELAND - Some West Side Market vendors report holiday cheer is running a little low in 2014.

 

Vendors report business is down by some 50 percent this holiday season due a parking shortage they claim has been caused by a growing number of bar patrons who are snapping up spots.

 

Vince Bertonaschi, owner of Vince's Meats told NewsChannel 5 relatively new bars and restaurants along W. 25th Street are thriving, and a growing number of their patrons are taking up the majority of the parking spots in the lots next to the West Side Market.

 

MORE:

http://www.newsnet5.com/money/consumer/troubleshooter/west-side-market-parking-problems-hurt-holiday-business

This is the one place I do agree needs a drastic solution because there is a parking problem. Either a garage or a redo of that surface lot needs to happen ASAP. 

Vendors report business is down by some 50 percent this holiday season due a parking shortage they claim has been caused by a growing number of bar patrons who are snapping up spots.

 

Business hours for WSM. MONDAY & WEDNESDAY: 7am - 4pm FRIDAY & SATURDAY: 7am - 6pm.

 

Something's not right. The OC bars are usually pretty dead during these times.