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I'd like to echo what donking said about attending the meeting.  This project WILL NOT move forward unless it gets approved by the block club.  If you can make it, please show up and voice your support.

 

NIMBY: "This monstrosity will destroy my property value and ruin the community aesthetic."

 

That same NIMBY probably bought his home in 2010 for $100,000 and will be selling as a result of being forced out of their home by these disgusting developers for $265,000.

NIMBY are really BANANAS

 

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Any Sites.

They've had success though. The Knez development at 38th and Clinton has been stalled due to NIMBYism, no?

what NIMBY?  This site is currently a parking lot.  Also, who wants to live directly across from emergency room entrance?

what NIMBY?  This site is currently a parking lot.  Also, who wants to live directly across from emergency room entrance?

 

Ummm... me, kind of.

 

I live 500 feet from there right now and I love knowing that I can literally walk myself to the ER if need be.

*Very* new resident within the block club’s boundaries! I may not be able to attend but I will send an email voicing my support.

 

Already tired of seeing the “My community is not your commodity” signs ?.

^ what's ironic about those signs is that people are often worried about new development affects the value of their property.  In effect, they are treating their house as a commodity.

 

^It's like the kid I met in Hingetown who told me how much he hated gentrification while sitting on a park bench in front of the Cleveland Museum of Art's Transformer Station with a bowl of Mitchell's Ice Cream in his hand

what NIMBY?  This site is currently a parking lot.  Also, who wants to live directly across from emergency room entrance?

 

Ummm... me, kind of.

 

I live 500 feet from there right now and I love knowing that I can literally walk myself to the ER if need be.

 

I assumed it would be rather noisy, glad it works for ya!

Hey Stan. The major developer is Weston. IB Development LLC lists to 4760 Richmond Rd #200 in Warrensville Hts. That's Weston's street address. And if they can acquire the neighboring parking lot from Lutheran Hospital, it will be a huge development.....

 

Development momentum on West 25th moves north

June 24, 2018 4:00 am

By STAN BULLARD

 

I.B. Development LLC, a partnership that includes prolific Ohio City real estate developer Chad Kertesz, shelled out $435,000 last October for a two-building former auto parts supply house at 1550 W. 25th St.

 

Kertesz, who said he is partners in I.B. Development with a major developer he declined to identify, wants to put a mixed-use building on the site. Originally, he looked at installing a single-story shopping center on it, but he was convinced by Ohio City Inc., the local development corporation, and others that the site could be put to better use with a multiple-story building with retail on the first floor and apartments above it.

 

However, Kertesz said, "It's too early in pre-development to talk about it in detail."

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180624/news/166166/development-momentum-west-25th-moves-north

^ok, I’ve eaten at gus’s in Memphis. That’s legit Fried Chicken.  Will serve the entire neighborhood...a price point for all residents

Gus's is Awesome!

Hey Stan. The major developer is Weston. IB Development LLC lists to 4760 Richmond Rd #200 in Warrensville Hts. That's Weston's street address. And if they can acquire the neighboring parking lot from Lutheran Hospital, it will be a huge development.....

 

Development momentum on West 25th moves north

June 24, 2018 4:00 am

By STAN BULLARD

 

I.B. Development LLC, a partnership that includes prolific Ohio City real estate developer Chad Kertesz, shelled out $435,000 last October for a two-building former auto parts supply house at 1550 W. 25th St.

 

Kertesz, who said he is partners in I.B. Development with a major developer he declined to identify, wants to put a mixed-use building on the site. Originally, he looked at installing a single-story shopping center on it, but he was convinced by Ohio City Inc., the local development corporation, and others that the site could be put to better use with a multiple-story building with retail on the first floor and apartments above it.

 

However, Kertesz said, "It's too early in pre-development to talk about it in detail."

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180624/news/166166/development-momentum-west-25th-moves-north

 

BUILD MOTH** F***ING CONDOS.

 

... Great news though

You are so correct, YABO.....I'm making the move back into the city next year, and the thought of plunking down 2-2500 on rent is not sitting well.  The market for empty nesters looking to spend 250-300K on a condo or townhome would be enormous.

That’s all they are building over in Detroit shoreway. Tremont too

It's very difficult to sell anything, condo or townhome, for $250-300k. Meaning the cost of land plus construction makes it all but impossible for a developer to make money. Everyone keeps begging for condos but banks want too much upfront cash and condos are an a$$ ache for developers due to getting sued by tenants when any little thing goes wrong. Get a lawyer in the bunch and you're screwed. Apartments and fee simple townhomes and single family are much more palatable from a developer standpoint at the moment.

It's very difficult to sell anything, condo or townhome, for $250-300k. Meaning the cost of land plus construction makes it all but impossible for a developer to make money. Everyone keeps begging for condos but banks want too much upfront cash and condos are an a$$ ache for developers due to getting sued by tenants when any little thing goes wrong. Get a lawyer in the bunch and you're screwed. Apartments and fee simple townhomes and single family are much more palatable from a developer standpoint at the moment.

 

LOL no wonder the attorney above is saying BUILD MOTH** F***ING CONDOS.  ;D

Condos are the most litigated type of development, some architects and engineers won't even work on them, freaking lawyers love them. It becomes a mob mentality with buyers/tenants once anything goes wrong in a building.

I've no doubt that the hassle of condos for developers is real. BUT:

 

1) At some point the demand is going to make it worth it. All commercial activity has hassle, risk, and potential liability. People are starting to want condos badly in Cleveland. If the demand is there and prices hit a certain point, it's no different from any other commercial activity that has potential for trouble, which is all of them. Condos are becoming a hot topic around town, a few weeks ago I was at a City Club forum on Public Square and it was discussed, there was a big PD article about it, and I've heard others bring it up as well.

 

2) None of the hassles of condos discussed above seem to be Cleveland specific. So why do I see so many more condos listed online in peer cities? Those hassles are the same in Pittsburgh and in Milwaukee. (Admittedly, perhaps it's just that those cities had condo inventory from 20 years ago that Cleveland does not)

 

I've actually heard the banks are the true cause of the problem right now, apparently they are being really skittish because there was a foreclosure on a condo project in The Avenue district. Also Historic Preservation Tax Credit money, which has largely funded most residential conversion downtown, prohibits condos for 7 years.

^Also, to w28th's point, the Stonebridge condos appear to have been a bit of a clusterf*ck of post-occupancy developer liability. 

I agree that there is a demand for condos in Cleveland, but the developers and banks are telling the market they aren't worth the risk at the current price point. If it's true that banks are scared of condos due to the Avenue District that's a weak position to take. That was built just before the crash and is in a virtual no-man's land. The bank that lent on that is the problem, not condos in general. Maybe someone should discuss these points with the state historic tax credit people.

^I agree with you... I am just hoping that we reach a critical mass soon where banks and developers may start paying attention, and prices rise to a level where it's possible.

It's very difficult to sell anything, condo or townhome, for $250-300k. Meaning the cost of land plus construction makes it all but impossible for a developer to make money. Everyone keeps begging for condos but banks want too much upfront cash and condos are an a$$ ache for developers due to getting sued by tenants when any little thing goes wrong. Get a lawyer in the bunch and you're screwed. Apartments and fee simple townhomes and single family are much more palatable from a developer standpoint at the moment.

 

LOL no wonder the attorney above is saying BUILD MOTH** F***ING CONDOS.  ;D

 

Lol and I clerked for a firm in law school that defends HOA's

I have heard from some people with land in the immediate W.25th/Lorain area that they are getting hit up by agents to buy/invest the land into new townhome development.  The word is that they are targeting the 1300-1800SF range, looking to sell them in the $330-400k range, they believe the market for the larger $400k+ condo developments is saturated at the moment but they see big demand in smaller units at that price point.

I've been touring the new townhome developments around tremont, duck island and battery park and can confirm market saturation.  Also, smaller units will be a nice addition because all of each I've toured are entirely way too much space, unless you're moving from an already furnished, 3-4 bdrm home.  Most of the current projects appear to target empty nesters, and the market is definitely in need of a scaled down version.

I've no doubt that the hassle of condos for developers is real. BUT:

 

1) At some point the demand is going to make it worth it. All commercial activity has hassle, risk, and potential liability. People are starting to want condos badly in Cleveland. If the demand is there and prices hit a certain point, it's no different from any other commercial activity that has potential for trouble, which is all of them. Condos are becoming a hot topic around town, a few weeks ago I was at a City Club forum on Public Square and it was discussed, there was a big PD article about it, and I've heard others bring it up as well.

 

2) None of the hassles of condos discussed above seem to be Cleveland specific. So why do I see so many more condos listed online in peer cities? Those hassles are the same in Pittsburgh and in Milwaukee. (Admittedly, perhaps it's just that those cities had condo inventory from 20 years ago that Cleveland does not)

 

I've actually heard the banks are the true cause of the problem right now, apparently they are being really skittish because there was a foreclosure on a condo project in The Avenue district. Also Historic Preservation Tax Credit money, which has largely funded most residential conversion downtown, prohibits condos for 7 years.

Wait for the Historic Tax Credit projects to come off of restrictions to rental.

 

It's very difficult to sell anything, condo or townhome, for $250-300k. Meaning the cost of land plus construction makes it all but impossible for a developer to make money. Everyone keeps begging for condos but banks want too much upfront cash and condos are an a$$ ache for developers due to getting sued by tenants when any little thing goes wrong. Get a lawyer in the bunch and you're screwed. Apartments and fee simple townhomes and single family are much more palatable from a developer standpoint at the moment.

 

LOL no wonder the attorney above is saying BUILD MOTH** F***ING CONDOS.  ;D

 

Lol and I clerked for a firm in law school that defends HOA's

 

Nothing wrong with getting what you paid for. Look how long that Stonebridge took to get corrected and how much time and money was spent in court. That's exactly the problem.

Ironically, doesn't look like my fiance and I will be living at Stonebridge after all.. ^^^^ Those may fit our budget though.

I've been touring the new townhome developments around tremont, duck island and battery park and can confirm market saturation. 

 

What does this even mean?

This one could get interesting and not just because it's the George family. The parking lot for this building is owned mostly by the county and is being donated to the Irishtown Bend park. George won’t be able to put anything into the building because the number of available parking spaces won’t meet code and the city won’t give any BZA parking variances for it. I suspect he'll end up donating it, get a tax write-off and make himself look like he's the good guy -- but it may take a long and winding road to get there...

 

TownHall's Bobby George makes a play for one of Ohio City's eyesores.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180626/news/166371/add-bobby-georges-name-next-round-west-25th-street-plays

As Bobby George himself asks in that article, why the eff didn't someone involved in the park planning buy that property?

As Bobby George himself asks in that article, why the eff didn't someone involved in the park planning buy that property?

 

Good question. Perhaps he had his hands on it before the park interests had the money to buy it? I had heard about George buying this property when there was still snow on the ground.

If George, the owner of a popular business in Ohio City already, did not know about the Irish Bend project until the building was under contract as he asserts in the article, he is either a liar or an idiot.

 

Two words: eminent domain.  And it will be an easy case.  He just established the far market price of the parcel.

The building sits in a pedestrian retail overlay, so the parking requirements are relatively low. There might be enough surface parking behind the building if he really wanted some kind of retail.

 

The parcels are kind of mess at the corner. The areas in red just transferred to George's company. The areas bounded in blue are owned by the county/CMHA. The yellow area is actually city right-of-way, Conn Court, which is just being used as parking now.

 

I suspect KJP is right, and it'll be donated, sold, or taken by ED. But instead I wish he'd put some kind of mixed use building there. I've made my objection before about parks being built on commercial corridors (and the proposed greenspace near Metro).

Sounds to me like he wants to turn this into an outpost just like Rebol, except this time I guess he’d actually own the property it sits on.

 

Kind of sneaky the way he’s trying to force his way into a deal but maybe that’s just business ??‍♂️

. But instead I wish he'd put some kind of mixed use building there. I've made my objection before about parks being built on commercial corridors (and the proposed greenspace near Metro).

 

I proposed to Steve Litt who first wrote up the park proposal that retaining a commercial strip along the east side of W25th would be a good idea - and provide some tax $$ to maintain the park.  He replied that the entire property east of the street is unstable and can't bear the weight of construction.  Well, maybe; but at some valuation any land can be developed. I guess we're not at that valuation yet.

I actually really love that building.It has good lines and I'd be thrilled to see it put to use and not just demolished. I really don't think it'd be hard to just integrate it with the park.

. But instead I wish he'd put some kind of mixed use building there. I've made my objection before about parks being built on commercial corridors (and the proposed greenspace near Metro).

 

I proposed to Steve Litt who first wrote up the park proposal that retaining a commercial strip along the east side of W25th would be a good idea - and provide some tax $$ to maintain the park.  He replied that the entire property east of the street is unstable and can't bear the weight of construction.  Well, maybe; but at some valuation any land can be developed. I guess we're not at that valuation yet.

 

I'd like to see something retail-oriented along that stretch. Kiosks? I'm not too happy about early renderings making that stretch of W. 25 look like the freeway.

I agree, we shouldn't be adding parks on streets like West 25th.  And it's hard to believe the ground is that unstable if we aren't evacuating those two big high-rises.  But whatever we do with the east side, that Lutheran parking lot ruins the west side of 25th anyway.

I agree, we shouldn't be adding parks on streets like West 25th.  And it's hard to believe the ground is that unstable if we aren't evacuating those two big high-rises.  But whatever we do with the east side, that Lutheran parking lot ruins the west side of 25th anyway.

 

Yeah, that Lutheran lot is a pedestrian killer. It would be great to somehow get something built that doesn't block out that cool Cinecraft building.

I agree, we shouldn't be adding parks on streets like West 25th.  And it's hard to believe the ground is that unstable if we aren't evacuating those two big high-rises.  But whatever we do with the east side, that Lutheran parking lot ruins the west side of 25th anyway.

 

I think that strong dedicated, central green space is always beneficial for a city. There are plenty of lots on the western side of W. 25th that can be developed. Some of the eastern half could be developed, but it doesn't need to all be developed. The lot where Kan Zaman sits amongst, and across Franklin from it can really be developed for high quality mixed-use development. The block where the restaurant sits is roughly 6.5 acres, and has basically nothing except for low quality buildings. There's really no reason Lutheran can't develop a parking garage somewhere.

 

A good road diet, development of the lots, and strong public space would be great for this area. W. 25th thrives where its 2 lanes, as does Detroit Ave. There was a recent article in Scene that suggested to maintain the stabilizing of our population could depend on retaining the millennials we've gained as they begin families. We have green space, but how much of it is family friendly? Irishtown Bend will have a sledding hill, playground, etc.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/clevelands-population-could-hinge-on-keeping-or-attracting-young-people-once-they-start-having-kids/Content?oid=19742686

 

^ fair point. I do think the park and some retail could coexist on tHe east side of w25 without blocking the view or impeding access to green space. To me that’s a best case scenario. Also I wonder if K Zaman would be reluctant to change. They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

^ The road is like 70 feet wide. You could take space from the road to construct buildings. Could also create dedicated bus lanes, especially now that the 51 is branded. Both very radical ideas likely to not happen. But some smaller buildings along the eastern half would be great that could be integrated with the park.

They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

 

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience.

They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

 

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience.

 

How do we preserve important cultural assets while developing - i.e., not "gentrify". Maintaining strong, existing businesses important, but it sits on an extremely important piece of land that has strong development potential. Do we integrate their business into a new structure, and would they be willing to do so or potentially pay high rents? Keep their building and develop around it? Will the owners sell out when the time comes and impact would that have? Questions that I ask as a very fresh urban planner.

They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

 

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience.

 

I remember them at their old location. I went their once with a group of people and it was a cool place to eat and smake hookahs.  I went back another time on a date (years ago) and I was told that I could only order take out or pay a cover of $10 each. I'm not sure why but I have my suspicion.

They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

 

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience.

 

How do we preserve important cultural assets while developing - i.e., not "gentrify". Maintaining strong, existing businesses important, but it sits on an extremely important piece of land that has strong development potential. Do we integrate their business into a new structure, and would they be willing to do so or potentially pay high rents? Keep their building and develop around it? Will the owners sell out when the time comes and impact would that have? Questions that I ask as a very fresh urban planner.

 

I would hope that future developments along this strip of W. 25th will be able to make room for Kan Zaman to stay in the neighborhood. It's a unique place with a loyal ethnic customer base, and I'd be pretty sad to see it replaced with a "hip" (white) place similar to Townhall. Since Kan Zaman owns the land, perhaps a developer could reach a deal with them that would give them a good deal on rent in a new space in exchange for buying the current Kan Zaman property for future development.

They seem to do pretty good business at their ugly featureless setback building.

 

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience.

 

How do we preserve important cultural assets while developing - i.e., not "gentrify". Maintaining strong, existing businesses important, but it sits on an extremely important piece of land that has strong development potential. Do we integrate their business into a new structure, and would they be willing to do so or potentially pay high rents? Keep their building and develop around it? Will the owners sell out when the time comes and impact would that have? Questions that I ask as a very fresh urban planner.

 

I would hope that future developments along this strip of W. 25th will be able to make room for Kan Zaman to stay in the neighborhood. It's a unique place with a loyal ethnic customer base, and I'd be pretty sad to see it replaced with a "hip" (white) place similar to Townhall. Since Kan Zaman owns the land, perhaps a developer could reach a deal with them that would give them a good deal on rent in a new space in exchange for buying the current Kan Zaman property for future development.

 

Hopefully a ''hip'' hip-hop club can get back into the W 25th Street mix as well.

I would hope that future developments along this strip of W. 25th will be able to make room for Kan Zaman to stay in the neighborhood. It's a unique place with a loyal ethnic customer base, and I'd be pretty sad to see it replaced with a "hip" (white) place similar to Townhall. Since Kan Zaman owns the land, perhaps a developer could reach a deal with them that would give them a good deal on rent in a new space in exchange for buying the current Kan Zaman property for future development.

 

I'm sure that the owner is very aware of potential development on their land as the neighborhood is starting to see a lot of new construction of apartment complexes/mixed use developments. The new park across the street will raise the property values as well. It'll be interesting to see what CC Lutheran does with their lots. With MetroHealth's new campus down the road, and CC's spur of development elsewhere, there's no reason they can't afford to transition to denser parking to free up space for development.

 

Hopefully a ''hip'' hip-hop club can get back into the W 25th Street mix as well.

 

I agree. W. 25th could use a little night life. I like Speakeasy, but what else is there on W. 25? W. 25, to me, is a more casual night or a pre-game spot.

It's quite busy, well into the night.  It just doesn't have a dance club.  Unfortunately, because of of the community's experience with Moda any dance club that tries to locate there is going to have an uphill battle.