Progress on the new West Side High School....

 

Is there a long term plan to integrate this HS into the surrounding area?  

11 minutes ago, tklg said:

Is there a long term plan to integrate this HS into the surrounding area?  

 

As a homeowner on an adjacent street, I'm not thrilled about the high school: a) because I think that was prime development space, b) because that WAS Max Hayes and they just built a new Max Hayes 2 miles away, and c) because it does not look like its really integrating well with the overall streetscape Ohio City and DS are trying to strive for along Detroit. But maybe I'll be wrong when I see the finished product. 

Just now, YABO713 said:

 

As a homeowner on an adjacent street, I'm not thrilled about the high school: a) because I think that was prime development space, b) because that WAS Max Hayes and they just built a new Max Hayes 2 miles away, and c) because it does not look like its really integrating well with the overall streetscape Ohio City and DS are trying to strive for along Detroit. But maybe I'll be wrong when I see the finished product. 

The CLE school district isn't interested in integrating this school into anything.  The school district is making a stand on this key parcel in a booming and gentrifying neighborhood.  Prime land the school dist could have sold for nice $$ but it decides to stay and rebuild as it cries the $ blues. 

 

Look what it did with nuCLEus.

Edited February 8, 20196 yr by Oxford19

I had heard there's a law prohibiting schools from building higher than 2 stories

^When was the law passed?  Shaw High School was rebuilt in 2007 and is four stories.

 

Looks like these broke ground today:

 

https://issuu.com/knezhomes/docs/forest_city_five_brochure_11.15-18

21 hours ago, RMB said:

I had heard there's a law prohibiting schools from building higher than 2 stories

The school of arts was just rebuilt and looks to be 3 stories.

Lincoln Elementary in Lakewood is three stories, and it is only a couple of years old

Going over 2 stories may have strict egress requirements that increases the cost of build. I'm just guessing here 

More detail about this project:

https://ohiohome.org/ppd/proposals/2017/PermanentSupportiveHousing/17-0087-StJosephsCommons.pdf

 

This will replace Front Steps' current site on West 25th near Franklin and which will be demolished for the new Irishtown Bend Park.

 

NEAR WEST DESIGN REVIEW

NW2017-001 - St. Joseph's Commons New Construction: Seeking Final Approval Project Address: 2554 West 25th Street
Project Representative: Greg Baron, PIRHL

 

More photos at:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2019/02152019/index.php#myGallery

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice, I like that the parking will be tucked in the center of the block. Huge step up from the current building with the parking/drives taking up all of the frontage. It's also substantially bigger than the current facility. Glad they'll be able to expand their mission and help even more. A nice bit of added density.

And another dead zone along West 25th is cemented until this thing can be torn down in 40 years...

57 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I see that CLE Venture Fund (incorporated in Indiana) bought the building in March 2018, shortly before it added extra partners in May 2018. The person who incorporated CLE Venture Fund was Scott Jarred https://jarredbunch.com/staff/scott-jarred/. I don't know who that is or why someone from Carmel, Indiana was and is interested in that building.

 

14 hours ago, w28th said:

And another dead zone along West 25th is cemented until this thing can be torn down in 40 years...

 

The immediate area is not necessarily encouraging neighborhood life and seems to be a bit industrial.  There's vacant lots directly next to both sides of the proposed site and across the street there's a factory. 

 

The 2 bridges between this site and the Ohio city retail area are a killer for walkability to an existing entertainment district. Same going east to Tremont with no real direct walkable route. The closer you get to the merger of the railways and highways into downtown, the more islands of land like this you get. I think options like this make sense in this area since it doesn't seem to be too appealing for private investment. It's on a major bus route as well which hopefully will help mobilize these residents.

Harbor Bay went before the planning commission today for a zoning map amendments for change of use, height and area districts. There was a lot of positive feedback, but slight concern about parking since there's less than a 1-to-1 park proposal for apartments. However, McCormack and Whalen were able to speak to the benefits of TOD and the multimodal connectivity at this location. There seems to be a lot of support from this project from the city, neighborhood groups, west side mark tenants, and Ohio City Inc. Even the neighboring business owner spoke on Harbor Bay's behalf. Can't wait for this project to really get off the ground. 

 

On 2/15/2019 at 2:01 PM, imjustinjk said:

Harbor Bay went before the planning commission today for a zoning map amendments for change of use, height and area districts. There was a lot of positive feedback, but slight concern about parking since there's less than a 1-to-1 park proposal for apartments. However, McCormack and Whalen were able to speak to the benefits of TOD and the multimodal connectivity at this location. There seems to be a lot of support from this project from the city, neighborhood groups, west side mark tenants, and Ohio City Inc. Even the neighboring business owner spoke on Harbor Bay's behalf. Can't wait for this project to really get off the ground. 

 

More....

And

 

Here’s a couple pictures I took from my backyard of the 48th Street peninsula development. Most of that has been cleared in the last 2-3 week

RTA Redline Greenway development prompts clash of positive values: Steven Litt

 

This should be a time for rejoicing among trail advocates in Northeast Ohio and particularly on Cleveland’s West Side.

 

Instead, there’s an air of conflict over part of the $6 million, 2.3-mile Red Line Greenway, which Cleveland Metroparks plans to build starting this summer on land leased from the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority along the rapid transit Red Line.

When finished in 2020, the greenway will run from West 65th Street at the Zone Recreation Center to Columbus Road at Franklin Avenue along the Cuyahoga River. 

 

People really don't want to see this Greenway, huh? I disregarded McNulty's op-ed as self motivated garbage [as a developer]. I'm very pro green space, especially since our "Forest City" really lacks green space in many areas of the urban core, but I think this outrage is misguided. This greenway is a great project, but TOD could be well integrated with the project. The 1.3 acre proposed site seems to really be a small part out of total the 2.3 mile greenway. Plus, the Irishtown Bend's 23 acre park is a stone throw away will provide ample green space. 

 

The trail will be separated on the west from RTA’s tracks and a maintenance road by a 6-foot-high chain link fence coated in black vinyl to make it fade into the landscape.

 

Sorry I have to laugh at how terrible that's going to look. 

 

Anyhow here's hoping we can somehow get enough cooperation for the greeenway AND some housing/retail to coexist here for the win-win. 

56 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

The trail will be separated on the west from RTA’s tracks and a maintenance road by a 6-foot-high chain link fence coated in black vinyl to make it fade into the landscape.

 

Sorry I have to laugh at how terrible that's going to look. 

 

Anyhow here's hoping we can somehow get enough cooperation for the greeenway AND some housing/retail to coexist here for the win-win. 

 

Do you think they're using chain link because it's the most affordable option? I know that there has to be a barrier between rail and park, but chain link fences do not age very well. Maybe they'll put some trees or landscaping in front of the fence.

 

It seems like you would want some development along the 2.5 mile stretch otherwise you're just kind of in a trench with a train? Maybe not large scale developments, but maybe small restaurants/food stands and shops or whatever to bring in activity. They could do something like shipping container formatted businesses or whatever. People are trying to compare it NYC's high line which has spurred development. I'm looking through the plans again, and it doesn't look like there's any plans for commercial development... Maybe I'm not looking hard enough?

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I was totally envisioning this place being more than just a little trail.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by imjustinjk

But it’s going to “fade into the landscape” haha. This things gonna be a graffiti canvas, which could actually  be an improvement. 

 

Im with you though. This isn’t the National Park or some pristine, unique ecosystem. It should absolutely Provide for commercial development. 

The development they are considering though is pretty much going to line the greenway with garage entrances, not active retail.

4 hours ago, X said:

The development they are considering though is pretty much going to line the greenway with garage entrances, not active retail.

 

I would be opposed to anything that doesn't have a public use on the ground floor. I also don't think it should be littered with development. I think that housing in this spot with park facing amenities would be great: retail, restrooms, a dog wash station, whatever. Additionally, maybe one or two strategic spots else where small formatted space that you can grab ice cream in the summer or a hot beverage in the winter would be really great. Maybe even accessibility for a few food trucks to set up for special events like you see at other public spaces in the city. 

 

Just a Reminder that the Cool Red Line Greenway Project is Still a Long Way Off

 

This article from 2015 states:

 

“Within a quarter mile radius of the West Side Market, there are 30-plus breweries and restaurants.” Peterson said in his presentation. “What I’m proposing is two restaurants on the Red Line Greenway, a permanent restaurant with a well-established chef, and a pop-up restaurant with rotating chefs, young and upcoming culinary artists who can show off their craft. That way, this project will not only embody the culture of Cleveland but help grow it as well.” 

 

I don't see any other mention of it the possibility though. 

How about capping the tracks between the station and 25th, wouldnt that allow more space for construction? Put a new greenway on top directly over the tracks. 

On 2/8/2019 at 11:21 AM, YABO713 said:

 

As a homeowner on an adjacent street, I'm not thrilled about the high school: a) because I think that was prime development space, b) because that WAS Max Hayes and they just built a new Max Hayes 2 miles away, and c) because it does not look like its really integrating well with the overall streetscape Ohio City and DS are trying to strive for along Detroit. But maybe I'll be wrong when I see the finished product. 

 

Agreed on all accounts.  It's a lousy location for a school.  Schools require lots of surface parking for buses & dropoff/pickup areas, 98% of the kids that go there will have to cross Detroit (not safe) and it's a prime development opportunity for mixed use (office or apartments over retail)

On 2/12/2019 at 7:49 PM, w28th said:

And another dead zone along West 25th is cemented until this thing can be torn down in 40 years...

 

How would this be a dead zone? Is W 25th only supposed to be up market mixed use?Seems to be a great move for the community at large. 

8 hours ago, X said:

The development they are considering though is pretty much going to line the greenway with garage entrances, not active retail.

 

Ugh, exactly as feared. Given the grade change, it's hard to imagine a developer proposing anything other than parking down there, unless their arm is twisted.

 

In a normal city, when a public amenity like this is being planned, there would be accompanying changes to land use regs that would make clear the types of development the city will permit or wants to see alongside it. It's increasingly frustrating seeing proactive planning either totally ignored by the city or outsourced to expensive outside consultants. Every booster bro loves comparing projects like this to the high line (which is dumb to begin with), but no one pays attention to the intense public planning effort that went into the land use regulations surrounding the high line.

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by StapHanger

On 2/13/2019 at 10:32 AM, Sammy Voz said:

The 2 bridges between this site and the Ohio city retail area are a killer for walkability to an existing entertainment district. Same going east to Tremont with no real direct walkable route. The closer you get to the merger of the railways and highways into downtown, the more islands of land like this you get. I think options like this make sense in this area since it doesn't seem to be too appealing for private investment. It's on a major bus route as well which hopefully will help mobilize these residents.

The land between Duck Iskand and the rest of Tremont is sort of a bummer too - small as it is. Even that single parking lot on West 25th in Ohio City on the west side of the street distrupts the flow of shops.  

BTW, the RTA board isn't voting on the proposed sale/lease of their Columbus Road land at today's meeting. 

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by KJP

1 hour ago, StapHanger said:

 

Ugh, exactly as feared. Given the grade change, it's hard to imagine a developer proposing anything other than parking down there, unless their arm is twisted.

 

In a normal city, when a public amenity like this is being planned, there would be accompanying changes to land use regs that would make clear the types of development the city will permit or wants to see alongside it. It's increasingly frustrating seeing proactive planning either totally ignored by the city or outsourced to expensive outside consultants. Every booster bro loves comparing projects like this to the high line (which is dumb to begin with), but no one pays attention to the intense public planning effort that went into the land use regulations surrounding the high line.

 

With the amount of backlash this is seemingly receiving, and if something does get developed, I don’t know how or why anyone would support garages facing the parkway. Seems like the below grade area would be reserved for public use. I don’t see parking flying in design review. McCormack seemingly would be against that as well. And if RTA were really to seek the best design possible for the building I don’t think they would allow a developer to do that either. I also don’t see RTA wanting a 1-to-1 parking arrangement either in the building because that would fly in the face of TOD. 

On 2/12/2019 at 7:49 PM, w28th said:

And another dead zone along West 25th is cemented until this thing can be torn down in 40 years...

Didn't Nestle already set the tone for this area though? They brought "build to the sidewalk" to the extreme. It may as well be a prison. 

The Redline Greenway, and RTA's TOD development are two parallel ideas, each with no thought given to the other.  The Greenway folks believe that absolutely no development should happen on the RTA land.  RTA's TOD plan is to wedge the Greenway between two chainlink fences.  I wouldn't expect anyone to back down or think about how to get the most out of both things happening in coordination with each other.

1 minute ago, X said:

The Redline Greenway, and RTA's TOD development are two parallel ideas, each with no thought given to the other.  The Greenway folks believe that absolutely no development should happen on the RTA land.  RTA's TOD plan is to wedge the Greenway between two chainlink fences.  I wouldn't expect anyone to back down or think about how to get the most out of both things happening in coordination with each other.

Agreed.  

RTA doesn't truly care about TOD imo. If they truly did they would be trying to leverage development at their station that has the most TOD potential, Superior station. 

18 minutes ago, X said:

The Redline Greenway, and RTA's TOD development are two parallel ideas, each with no thought given to the other.  The Greenway folks believe that absolutely no development should happen on the RTA land.  RTA's TOD plan is to wedge the Greenway between two chainlink fences.  I wouldn't expect anyone to back down or think about how to get the most out of both things happening in coordination with each other.

 

I think that planners over at RTA have pretty good heads on their shoulders. Whether anyone listens to them (or they have the resources) is another question. They're pretty intelligent and have put forth some pretty good projects. 

26 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

RTA doesn't truly care about TOD imo. If they truly did they would be trying to leverage development at their station that has the most TOD potential, Superior station. 

 

Why would you say the Superior station...I. e Cleveland ? W 25ths rider ship is twice as high as Superior’s. It’s near the bottom of their ridership for red line. Tower city, stokes, west park, west 25th, and w 117th are their 5 highest used stations. Superior is 13th-14th out of their 18 redline stations for usage. Plus the Superior station is in EC and isn’t developing at nearly the rate that OhC is (it’s dead). 

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by imjustinjk

3 hours ago, StapHanger said:

It's increasingly frustrating seeing proactive planning either totally ignored by the city or outsourced to expensive outside consultants. Every booster bro loves comparing projects like this to the high line (which is dumb to begin with), but no one pays attention to the intense public planning effort that went into the land use regulations surrounding the high line.

 

To be fair, in this situation there have been 2 significant planning efforts (Duck Island Neighborhood Plan and the Market District TOD plan) in the past few years with lots of public feedback/meetings that specifically called for townhouse developments on this land. The TOD plan predated the Red Line Greenway effort, but the Duck Island plan specifically incorporated the trail. 

18 minutes ago, imjustinjk said:

 

Why would you say the Superior station...I. e Cleveland ? W 25ths rider ship is twice as high as Superior’s. It’s near the bottom of their ridership for red line. Tower city, stokes, west park, west 25th, and w 117th are their 5 highest used stations. Superior is 13th-14th out of their 18 redline stations for usage. Plus the Superior station is in EC and isn’t developing at nearly the rate that OhC is (it’s dead). 

That's my point. To boost ridership you should build the area around it. The station right now is surrounded by dead zones or single use fast food chains. To Garner foot traffic those abandoned homes can be torn down into multi use apartments with retail at the bottom and the same goes for the parking lots. That would definitely skyrocket the ridership. In East Cleveland you have to take control of the development yourself because no one else will. 

 

To bring it back on topic, if RTA was serious about TOD imo they would have proposed TOD in an area where land is cheap and the layout is perfect for TOD. If they can't/won't get anything built there then hoping they build something on land as complicated as this Greenway proposal is a pipe dream. 

^^I should have been more specific: the high line planning effort culminated in a major rezoning that ensured some basic building form characteristics for the expected rush of development.  Were there any public policy changes that resulted from the Market District TOD and Duck Island planning efforts, or were they primarily community visioning exercises?  

 

It's possible the flaky discretionary gauntlet of design review, spot zoning, and variances can get us to the same place, but it would be swell if the city could sometimes get out ahead of these things with ex ante rezonings to cut to the chase. Maybe they have in this case and I'm wasting keystrokes.

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by StapHanger

2 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^^I should have been more specific: the high line planning effort culminated in a major rezoning that ensured some basic building form characteristics for the expected rush of development.  Were there any public policy changes that resulted from the Market District TOD and Duck Island planning efforts, or were they primarily community visioning exercises?  

 

It's possible the flaky discretionary gauntlet of design review, spot zoning, and variances can get us to the same place, but it would be swell if the city could sometimes get out ahead of these things with ex ante rezonings to cut to the chase. Maybe they have in this case and I'm wasting keystrokes.

 

All of Duck Island went through rezoning last year to match the master plan that was put together a few years.

17 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

That's my point. To boost ridership you should build the area around it. The station right now is surrounded by dead zones or single use fast food chains. To Garner foot traffic those abandoned homes can be torn down into multi use apartments with retail at the bottom and the same goes for the parking lots. That would definitely skyrocket the ridership. In East Cleveland you have to take control of the development yourself because no one else will. 

 

To bring it back on topic, if RTA was serious about TOD imo they would have proposed TOD in an area where land is cheap and the layout is perfect for TOD. If they can't/won't get anything built there then hoping they build something on land as complicated as this Greenway proposal is a pipe dream. 

 

The issue with this is that RTA doesn’t have the resources to spur development, and nobody wants to develop around this area. They could give the land they own around the station for free, but nothing will happen. If you look at West Park, however, you’ll see it has higher ridership, but also a lot of potential to be developed. There’s a lot of dead zones on immediately around West Park, but the area is fairly stable. RTA would be smarter to invest time and funds into the West Park area than Superior or a similar station to Superior. But this is getting of-topic. I think that W 25th-W 65th area have real possibilities of development and boosting ridership, especially in the immediate future. 

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by imjustinjk

7 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^^I should have been more specific: the high line planning effort culminated in a major rezoning that ensured some basic building form characteristics for the expected rush of development.  Were there any public policy changes that resulted from the Market District TOD and Duck Island planning efforts, or were they primarily community visioning exercises?  

 

It's possible the flaky discretionary gauntlet of design review, spot zoning, and variances can get us to the same place, but it would be swell if the city could sometimes get out ahead of these things with ex ante rezonings to cut to the chase. Maybe they have in this case and I'm wasting keystrokes.

 

They rezoned most of Duck Island last year. I just saw this, so I haven't had time to read through it. See the last page for a map of the changes (which includes an urban form overlay for the RTA land).

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/zoning/2018/Map2586.pdf

Is this the perfect situation for a requirement on development here to provide  0 off street parking spots? RTA can do that right? The block clubs would lose their shirt though. However it would be a good place to show that the world continues to work without off street parking, especially next to a heavy rail station. 

There was public input into the Duck Island plan, but the townhouses on the RTA land was a very unpopular feature.  NIMBY sentiment certainly doesn't always win out, despite some people's contentions.  Personally, I've always been of the opinion that well thought out development and greenspace will complement each other, but that's a middle ground few want to stand on.

2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

RTA doesn't truly care about TOD imo. If they truly did they would be trying to leverage development at their station that has the most TOD potential, Superior station. 

 

Absolutely incorrect. TOD is a primary goal of the agency.  It is fair to suggest that their execution of that goal leaves something to be desired or that their experience is still lacking, however there is no lack of desire.

 

I'll have a blog posting on this Columbus Road project.

Litt's article suggested that the developer works with the Metroparks/Rotary for a high quality design facing the Greenway, which IMO is a reasonable ask.

 

I wonder if this will end up a townhome project. The article says there is a 30 foot drop-off to the bottom of the hill. That's a substantial amount of fill and retaining for potentially 60-70 townhomes. And the developer would have to pre-sell a bunch of them before starting construction. It would make more sense as an apartment building with below grade parking.

 

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by Mendo

I was annoyingly presumptuous for assuming the city didn't rezone this land (thank you @3231 and @Mendo for setting me straight), but as far as I can tell, the rezoning didn't really add anything special relating to the greenway. Just put the site in a multifamily use district. No form-based overlays or special off-street parking restrictions to prevent the rear of the site from being nothing but garages, driveway, and fences. Here's another document showing the map changes:  http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/zoning/2018/Map2586.pdf

 

Anyway, this site won't make or break the greenway, so I won't get too hung up on it, but wish I had more confidence we'd see something especially well designed. 

 

Question for @X , is the on-street parking on this part of Columbus fairly well used? Or do you think it could handle more cars without disrupting too many existing residents?

Edited February 19, 20196 yr by StapHanger