My impression is that despite lots of similarities, Pittsburgh actually has more neighborhoods and commercial districts which are still intact than Cleveland.  Haven't been there in years, but Squirrel Hill is amazing- incredible housing stock and commercial area- like having an older Shaker Heights within the city limits (plus, unlike Shaker, a great old shopping strip).  It never had to gentrify because it never really declined.

 

I still think Ohio City has great potential.  If that hillside can ever be stabilized, packing the land east of West 25th with residents would sure help.

 

Thats what I usually equate it to.  I always thought (and I have been attacked for saying) that Cleveland has very spread out energy and activity.  Even the areas you think of as good places to go seem to have rather limited activity as well as commercial establishments.  (such as edgewater, detroit shoreway, Ohio city etc...) more specifically on the west side there are funky stores and restaurants spread around from Clifton, to detroit to madison to detroit shoreway, but no real specific/cohesive area to spend an afternoon walking and shopping as you could in the South Side Pittsburgh.  Some of the areas on the east side have a little more going on as was mentioned (coventry, little Italy) which seem to have more focused business/areas, where alot of the west side has storefronts and business districts that seem to go on for miles and tend to be underutilized.   

 

I think my argument before was something like (which MTS didnt like) when you try to make nearly every neighborhood an "arts district" you end up with a lot of "watered down" arts districts,  spread around in too many places, with not enough of a concentration of anything to make them a destination, or even draw enough to make them succesful (yes there are specific exceptions, but even those are not consistent and pretty specific to special events). 

 

Cleveland is known for having off the beaten path treasures, maybe because there isnt much of a beaten path....

Either way, this is one of the things that makes the city unique, if not hard to navigate for someone unfamiliar or unadventurous.     

 

Im not saying the approach in Cleveland to have these initiatives in every neighborhood is bad, in fact in the long run, at least assuming Cleveland will turn a corner, it may be the better approach, but it just seems to result in a lot of watered down areas.  I think Detroit Shoreway has the potential to move beyond this and think it will get there, but I also said this about Ohio City nearly 20 years ago and when I interned for OCNW (It is great, but not what it should be by now).             

My impression is that despite lots of similarities, Pittsburgh actually has more neighborhoods and commercial districts which are still intact than Cleveland.  Haven't been there in years, but Squirrel Hill is amazing- incredible housing stock and commercial area- like having an older Shaker Heights within the city limits (plus, unlike Shaker, a great old shopping strip).  It never had to gentrify because it never really declined.

 

 

 

Straphanger, I agree 100%.  Most cities have some neighborhoods that escaped urban devastation like Squirrel Hill did. 

 

Cleveland has been less fortunate, (although there is always West Park), which could partially explain our habit of hanging at the top of the poverty ranking.  For W. 25th + Lorain to be a mecca for street life, it has to have a good mix of draws, and people have to feel comfortable going there, when they have many other options to choose from.  The times I have been to the WS Market on Saturdays during the day, there does appear to be life in that pocket park across the street.  I love the flan at the Leolai Bakery.

 

 

 

Hi there. As I lived near Squirrel Hill and Shadyside for seven years and have now lived in Ohio City for nearly four years, I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this thread. The main difference that I've experienced is that the city of Pittsburgh does not practice much in the way of scatter-housing (as CMHA does, at least on my street) for its low-income subsidized renters. Instead they concentrate on more old-school housing projects and locate their various social services on site.

 

While both systems have their flaws, one (rather crass but) obvious plus in building a bustling central neighborhood retail corridor is that you don't have the same transient population you have in OC, which can be intimidating to visitors -- and I'll admit it -- and me at times.

It funny b/c we recently stayed at a "boutique" hotel on the Northside of Pittsburgh. We loved it, but it was totally surrounded by several blocks of public housing. It was rather hilarious b/c we strutted through there with an attitude, like "we are from Cleveland D*** it, step back" . And they did.

 

edit: to expand on whay Willy boy said- we are spread out! we have many enclaves with 2-3 blocks of interesting stuff, but that is it. For someone visiting it must be a PITA. Other than OC on market day I would be hard pressed to spend an afternoon in one place

On another note:

 

Ohio City is starting a series of Wine Tasting events. Check them out

 

The Ohio City Run & Crawl is slated for June 21st. Sign up early and get a t-shirt and 25 cent beer ticket for Bier Markt.

 

 

 

 

links. links. links!

Wine Tasting:

 

http://ohiocity.com/index.cgi?id=131&l=2&p=6345

 

Ohio City Run & Crawl

 

http://www.ohiocity.com/index.cgi?id=131&l=2&p=5700

 

thanks for the link. I rec' and email not long ago about the wine tasting but deleted it when I read the words "Rocky River" before seeing it is in OC. It is actually a pretty good idea assuming the food and wine is good.

Please don't knock the Rock,  lol  Downtown Rocky River from the river to Beachcliff is kind of a cool place to stroll.  That large pinkish condo complex and the bridge stub with the office building on it are visually interesting (to me at least).  In Ohio City, I thought there was a plan (related to CMHA) to humanize W25th St and extend the neighborhood to the Cuyahoga.  The views would have to be incredible from residences on the Irishtown bend.  Sadly the soil was not cooperative.  I think that area would have stroll potential.

 

 

 

thanks for the link. I rec' and email not long ago about the wine tasting but deleted it when I read the words "Rocky River" before seeing it is in OC. It is actually a pretty good idea assuming the food and wine is good.

 

It will be - Elizabeth (owner of Grady's) knows her stuff. :-) And I agree with urb-a-saurus, the area around River's "old downtown" is very walkable and has a great neighborhood feel to it. It's no Ohio City but it's no Brunstucky either.

Oh RR is not bad community esp since it has the metro park. I just don't go to the burbs unless I have too.

As a resident of Ohio City I thought I would clarify a couple of points in Clvlndr's post.  Not all of the empty storefronts mentioned are the result of a poor retail environment in the OC.

 

Kan Zaman has moved their restaurant and expanded to include a bakery. The new location is a great improvement over the prior tenants of the building - most notably a 24hr beer carry-out that was a constant neighborhood problem.  The Hookah Bar continues to operated in the old location. 

 

The Middle Eastern market closed over four years ago.  The building was purchased by someone who has tried for the past three years to turn it into a retail beer, wine, and liquor store.  The neighborhood fought this at every turn and the building owner has now given up and put the property on the market.

 

The owner of the Moda building is currently in prison serving time for drug trafficking and money laundering.  The closure of Moda has been the best thing to happen to OC in the past 5 years. Unless the owner decides to sell it from prison it will remain closed indefinitely.

 

City Buddha, original to OC, expanded to a location on coventry. Last year they decided to consolidate to the much larger space on coventry and closed the OC location.  An Italian restaurant is rumored to be working out a lease for the space.

 

In new OC news, the owners of the Great Lakes Brewery are expanding again.  As a result the Market Avenue Wine Bar next door is having to vacate its space - hopefully they will fill one of the empty storefronts you saw. Zen Salon is renovating the empty storefront next to Amtrust Bank on west 25th for their new spa.  Out on the street has returned to OC with a storefront on Lorain next to the Souper Market.  The new $5 million St Ignatius performance arts building is well under way on Lorian and W 32nd. 

 

Just wanted to say that things in the OC are still progressing along .

As a resident of Ohio City I thought I would clarify a couple of points in Clvlndr's post.  Not all of the empty storefronts mentioned are the result of a poor retail environment in the OC.

 

Kan Zaman has moved their restaurant and expanded to include a bakery. The new location is a great improvement over the prior tenants of the building - most notably a 24hr beer carry-out that was a constant neighborhood problem.  The Hookah Bar continues to operated in the old location. 

 

The Middle Eastern market closed over four years ago.  The building was purchased by someone who has tried for the past three years to turn it into a retail beer, wine, and liquor store.   The neighborhood fought this at every turn and the building owner has now given up and put the property on the market.

 

The owner of the Moda building is currently in prison serving time for drug trafficking and money laundering.  The closure of Moda has been the best thing to happen to OC in the past 5 years. Unless the owner decides to sell it from prison it will remain closed indefinitely.

 

City Buddha, original to OC, expanded to a location on coventry. Last year they decided to consolidate to the much larger space on coventry and closed the OC location.  An Italian restaurant is rumored to be working out a lease for the space.

 

In new OC news, the owners of the Great Lakes Brewery are expanding again.  As a result the Market Avenue Wine Bar next door is having to vacate its space - hopefully they will fill one of the empty storefronts you saw. Zen Salon is renovating the empty storefront next to Amtrust Bank on west 25th for their new spa.  Out on the street has returned to OC with a storefront on Lorain next to the Souper Market.  The new $5 million St Ignatius performance arts building is well under way on Lorian and W 32nd. 

 

Just wanted to say that things in the OC are still progressing along .

 

Good to hear... thanks for the clarification.

We have ADHD when it comes to gentrification.  Before we could bring OC to critical mass, we switched over to Tremont being the new cool neighborhood, then Detroit Shoreway.  Up next is Payne-Sterling.  Maybe after that Kinsman?  Of course, Slavic Village will always be "next", but never "it".

^Good point(s) X. Until Cleveland starts getting a multitude of people and businesses coming into the city (I believe this will eventually be the case) we can't expect 'gentrification build-out' in any single neighborhood when there are multiple cool neighborhoods vying for the current steady trickle of people, though having walked through Tremont last weekend, there isn't much in the way of vacant lots or un-rehabbed homes remaining; it just needs some more neighborhood-oriented retail, IMO.

 

My fiance and I spent just about all of Saturday down in OC at the Market and then just walking the dog, and I still can't get over how many gorgeous old homes of all sizes and styles are down there. OC will 'make it all the way back', and I hope circumstances will allow me to own a home there someday. :-)

Of course, Slavic Village will always be "next", but never "it".

 

Ouch, below the belt!  (But unfortunately, probably true.)

The owner of the Moda building is currently in prison serving time for drug trafficking and money laundering.  The closure of Moda has been the best thing to happen to OC in the past 5 years. Unless the owner decides to sell it from prison it will remain closed indefinitely.

 

Correction:  Although the owner of Moda is in prison, he leased the space from the building's owners. They are not in prison.

 

"Having walked through Tremont last weekend, there isn't much in the way of vacant lots or un-rehabbed homes remaining;"

 

North of I-490, perhaps - people forget that Tremont extends south of I-490 and west of I-90/I-71. There are plenty of places that could use some sprucing up, and I can assure everyone that not all of Tremont is gentrified to the point of being unaffordable.

 

 

There are a lot of factors that make Ohio City what it is. In looking at what we expect it to become, a lot of people ignore the strength of those factors.

JSZ, thanks for the clarification on a few points.  Even for us optimistic UrbanOhioans, we can sometimes fall into the glass half empties...  I felt this exact same thing upon visiting P'burgh two summers ago.  The city nabes were hopping and attractive, with commercial districts that extended for several blocks, where back on my very own W. 25th, two or three blocks was all we could muster.  I often wonder what would've happened if the Riverview HOPE VI project had succeeded in filling in the east side of the street up to Detroit.  There is some activity north of Franklin on the west side of the street, but it will still be fragmented.  And south of Lorain has some potential too, but only for a couple blocks before the railroad tracks cut things short.  My biggest hope is to wrap Lorain and get more activity on those blocks.  Lorain and Detroit have lots of opportunity.

 

But yes, the vacancies on W. 25th need to get wrapped up.  Is AP still in discussions about the Moda space?

as someone invested in South of Lorain development (or SoLo) I can say that when we looked at the various buildings available around the one we ended up buying we focused on St.Ignatius and the Urban School going east/west and the various renovations happening north south on Bridge and Orchard as well as all the green building activity in and around the neighborhood.

 

Access to public transportation was important as well.

 

We did not focus too much on West 25th, as it is choked off by Ignatius.

 

One of our next steps is to get with block groups on shared security options for the neighborhoods.

^how does Ignatius choke off W.25th? Did you mean Lorain? If anything, Lutheran and the CMHA tower choke off W.25th.

Ignatius chokes off west 25th. As businesses looking to move into the W.25th area don't want to go further than Iggy, and forget the other side. (I'm speaking in general) It breaks up the development potential in some ways, encourages development on the other side in others.. It's not like I'm thinking: hey lets got get breakfast at w25th.. how about Nick's on 41st?

 

No, Nick's, the bike shop, Morrison Dance.. it's all separated pretty much completely from 25th street activity.

 

Sorry, I meant it chokes off development coming around the corner from west 25th.

^Do you know what storefront is being renovated on the north side of Lorain just to the east of W. 41st?

^Do you know what storefront is being renovated on the north side of Lorain just to the east of W. 41st?

 

The last I heard it's being renovated for re-sale.

^I would imagine there are a number of houses in Ohio City in the same boat TODAY.

I wish I could find one. I'm looking to buy a house in the (very) near future, preferably in Ohio City or Old Brooklyn.  So far, every house I have shown interest in has already been sold to someone from out of town cash in hand. I'm starting to grow frustrated with the lackluster job real estate agents are doing.

I'm looking to buy a house in the (very) near future, preferably in Ohio City or Old Brooklyn.  

 

Two VERY diferrent neighborhoods....i live in OB and there are plenty of homes for sale.  If you're looking to get a deal, try some of the "for sale by owner" homes.  You can bypass the real estate agent and do the leg work yourself.

I'm looking to buy a house in the (very) near future, preferably in Ohio City or Old Brooklyn. 

 

Two VERY diferrent neighborhoods....i live in OB and there are plenty of homes for sale.  If you're looking to get a deal, try some of the "for sale by owner" homes.  You can bypass the real estate agent and do the leg work yourself.

 

my experience is that For Sale By Owner is normally someone who doesn't like the (lower) price the Real Estate agent told them they thought their house would sell for..

^or they are just testing the market..

^Exactly, they are just testing the market.  People use RE agents as a last ditch effort a lot of times.  Everyone tries to save the 7% before they engage with a RE agent.  Actually, right now, a lot of RE agents are pricing houses higher than the homeowners would like, being that they are trying to get out of their house.  I say this only based on things I heard from a few of our friends.

Went to school in Pittsburgh. Beautiful downtown, beautiful and very dense and vibrant neighborhoods. Cleveland has a lot to learn from Pittsburgh in terms of streetlife and density.

I grew up on Pittsburgh and I would agree.  Still, Pittsburgh has some neighborhoods that also went down hill and are struggling to come back.  The difference from what I understand from family who still live there is a more concerted effort and cooperation between neighborhoods and city government.  I have lived in Cleveland for 20+ years and I just have not seen that same sense of team.

^Exactly, they are just testing the market.  People use RE agents as a last ditch effort a lot of times.  Everyone tries to save the 7% before they engage with a RE agent.  Actually, right now, a lot of RE agents are pricing houses higher than the homeowners would like, being that they are trying to get out of their house.  I say this only based on things I heard from a few of our friends.  Could you explain the comment about pricing higher? 

This is my first post, so forgive me if I repeat anything that has already said. My wife is from Pittsburgh and I graduated from Pitt, so I feel I can add a to the discussion. Pittsburgh has some very nice neighborhoods. Some of these neighborhoods are vibrant and dense. However, I think Pittsburgh benefits from its geography. To a certain extent, Cleveland is disadvantaged by its geography. This is why I always hated the Cleveland/Pittsburgh comparison because the two cities are really different. First, some of these Pittsburgh neighborhoods (Squirrel Hill and Shady Side) never experienced the decline seen in most Cleveland neighborhoods. Essentially, Cleveland had to start from scratch in neighborhoods like OC and Tremont. From my understanding, Squirrel Hill and Shadyside never saw the sharp decline OC and Tremont experienced thirty years ago. Also, Cleveland is flat and very accessible. We built extensive freeways that made it easy to get in and out of the city. Pittsburgh does not have an extensive freeway system. The Parkway is the only freeway that truly cuts through the city (279 does run through the city, but is more extensive on the north side of town).  Cleveland’s suburban development is more extensive than Pittsburgh’s. Exiting Clevelanders had a plethora of suburban options. You could move to Shaker or Cleveland Hts, Westlake, Bay Village, Mayfield Hts, Parma, Euclid, Beachwood, Maple Hts, Strongsville or Solon. Pittsburgh on the other hand, is limited by its topography, reducing the number of suburban options. Urban sprawl in Pittsburgh is not as pronounced as it is in Cleveland.

Squirrel Hill is Pittsburgh's Shaker or Cleveland Hts. When Pittsburghers looked to move out the city in the 50’s and 60’s, their options were limited. Therefore, Squirrel Hill and Shady Side stayed the same because there were few suburbs that offered that type of housing. Cleveland has several suburbs that offer “Squirrel Hill” type of housing.  Finally, my mother-in-law has told me stories of how dense Pittsburgh was in the 50's and 60's. The city of Pittsburgh is roughly 55 square miles. In 1950, there were almost 700,000 people in 55 square miles. Cleveland is 77 square miles, at its peak there was 900,000 people in the city of Cleveland. I didn't do the math, but from a quick glance, Pittsburgh was denser than Cleveland was at its peak. Therefore, some of that density still exists today in several Pittsburgh neighborhoods. This does not mean we can’t learn from Pittsburgh. I think Pittsburgh has a few more natural advantages that helps keep some neighborhoods in the city vibrant.

 

The numbers work out that Pittsburgh was only slightly more dense at its peak, but I would say that the neighborhoods are quit a bit more dense since a decent portion of the land within the city limits is unusable due to the terrain.

Parts of Pittsburgh are so hilly, I used to joke that the typical Pittsburgh residential lot would be considered unbuildable in Cleveland.  Ironically, Ohio City has a hill going down to the river, but that slope is apparently unbuildable without expensive modifications.  Go figure.

sir2gees, welcome & great first post.  I agree. 

Parts of Pittsburgh are so hilly, I used to joke that the typical Pittsburgh residential lot would be considered unbuildable in Cleveland.  Ironically, Ohio City has a hill going down to the river, but that slope is apparently unbuildable without expensive modifications.  Go figure.

 

It's not so much the incline, but the conditions of the soil underneath - Cleveland has mostly glacial shale (awful for building) below street level, Pittsburgh has a mix of igneous rock, coal and shale.

 

And yep, sir2gees makes a pretty accurate assessment.

Welcome, sir2gees. Based on that first post, you ought to share your thoughts more often!

I think the key differences in Ohio City vs. the successful 24-7 nabes in Pittsburgh is geography.  Pittsburgh has a lower population and population density than Cleveland, but it has pockets of high density constricted at the tops or bottoms of (often steep) hills, while Cleveland's is spread moderately over flatter, more accessible neighborhoods -- like Ohio City.  I think it's no coincidence that our most successful 24-hour areas, Little Italy and Coventry, fall more into the Pittsburgh model, geographically.  My area, Shaker Square, has high population density concentrated at Shaker Square, but the Square area (including Larchmere), is mainly flat; on top of that, both Shaker Sq and Larchmere really don't want wild, trendy jam-packed areas.  Shaker Sq, esp wants family friendly establishments, that's why bars and clubs in this area are few and the few we've had really don't last (accept for the long-running "The Reason Why" which died in the 1990s)...

 

Ohio City is obviously trying to build population density, but with little success aside from Fries and Shuele which, next to CMHA's Riverview, is the 2nd largest res building, unit-wise (I'm pretty sure its bigger than the West Virginia apts; correct me if I'm wrong)... The bulk of OC's residences are small Victorian houses on individual lots; some small and close-cropped, but OC's density doesn't match a Coventry, Shaker Sq, Little Italy or Edgewater/Lakewood Gold Coast... hence the feast-or-famine bustle as opposed to Pittsburgh's Southside.

 

Chicago is flat and accessible too (which, I know we've compared to Cleveland ad nauseum), but it makes up for it with such extreme population size and densit in most nabes...

 

 

the reason why.....damn

Parts of Pittsburgh are so hilly, I used to joke that the typical Pittsburgh residential lot would be considered unbuildable in Cleveland.  Ironically, Ohio City has a hill going down to the river, but that slope is apparently unbuildable without expensive modifications.  Go figure.

 

It's not so much the incline, but the conditions of the soil underneath - Cleveland has mostly glacial shale (awful for building) below street level, Pittsburgh has a mix of igneous rock, coal and shale.

 

And yep, sir2gees makes a pretty accurate assessment.

 

 

Curses, "soiled" (foiled) again.  :wink:  Irishtown bend could be a fascinating location for homes and a restaurant or two.  I am imagining terraced residences climbing the hill with spectacular views and maybe some cafes where you can sit and watch the boats go by (I miss Max and Erma's and Watermark's patios in the flats).  No harm in dreaming  :-D

You decribed Hoopples...Irishtown bend Condos. I wish there could be more too. a new place is about to open on Columbus rd, just next to the bridge. I think is called Sainatos.

^Columbus road from Duck Island and into the Flats might be my favorite road in Cleveland.

 

So, carrying over a thought from the Cleveland Restaurant Openings and Closings thread inspired by Dishes and Monastary closing down:  Narrowing west 25th north of Bridge was part of the awesome Goody Clancy Hope VI scheme that got shot down by the unstable hillside, but I hope it's revisited some day as part of a serious effort to connect Market Square with the Detroit Superior bridge landing.  The riverview tower is a challenge, but not insurmountable.  Maybe that wide street width could actually be an opportunity to add a curb separated bike lane that connects the DS promenade to market square.  The western side of W25th between Detroit and Franklin would be bad-ass sites for midrise housing taking advantage of those incredible skyline views.

 

For all I know, it's all part of a OCNW master plan so I should really go look at that.

 

But in the mean time I really worry that the northern storefronts of the OC retail district (where Dish and Monastery were) are going to have a very touch time succeeding unless the tenants are home run destinations in their own right or until bigger redevelopment plans come along for W25th.

Ok I noticed a couple things today. One there is a HUGE dirt moving operation going on behind riverview-anyone know what that is about?

 

second I noticed that middle eastern store between the market and National City has a For Sale sign I only just observed. Did the criminal guy who owned finally give up trying to open a crummy liquor store in the neighborhood?

 

In other sad w.25 news, the book store is closing. adding that to the couple eateries already mentioned, it has not been a good month.  Luckily Bar Cento, Bier Markt, Garage, and Old Angle step up to the plate and stay open in Sunday. Notice I left at least one place out.

Phnom Penh, ABC The Tavern, Great Lakes...

I was kind of talking taverns so I missed ABC. GReat Lakes is NOT open on Sunday

Ok I noticed a couple things today. One there is a HUGE dirt moving operation going on behind riverview-anyone know what that is about?

 

 

CMHA is expanding the surface lot behind the towers.

Just as a general heads up on a couple of projects.  They are building a performing arts center of some sort on Lorain across from St. Ignatius, I beleive for the school.  It's actually quite a large project for not having seen it anywhere in these forums.

 

Demo has been going on on 41st and Lorain for the future offices of an architect, can't remember the name right now.  Two buildings are being demoed and one rehabbed.  One house is gone and the other one is almost gone.

 

The rehab construction has started at Bridge and Fulton for the future home of another architecture firm, KB2 something or another.

 

Also over the last year there have been quite a few storefront renovations on Lorain, between 41st and 65th, does anybody know if there is some sort of masterplanning exercise that might have been executed to pull Lorain together?  I know that this is part of that antiques district but not sure if this has anything to do with it.

 

If I get a chance I'll take pics this weekend and post them. 

No masterplanning process has been done recently.

 

WRL did the work on the new Ignatius Performing Arts Center. I believe that it has been mentioned a few times on the OC thread.

 

 

Ok I noticed a couple things today. One there is a HUGE dirt moving operation going on behind riverview-anyone know what that is about?

 

 

CMHA is expanding the surface lot behind the towers.

 

For serious?  What happened to the idea of creating a public park on that land?

The rehab construction has started at Bridge and Fulton for the future home of another architecture firm, KB2 something or another.

 

mbi/k2m  see http://www.gcbl.org/building/green-building/green-buildings-in-northeast-ohio/mbi-k2m-green-renovation