1952 Columbus Road is the vine-covered building straight ahead. The connected building to the right is 1950 Columbus and may not be part of this rezoning to permit a residential conversion....

 

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2014/crr11-10-2014.pdf

 

Board of Zoning Appeals

NOVEMBER 10, 2014

 

9:30 Ward 3

Calendar No. 14-200: 1952 Columbus Road Joe Cimperman

11 Notices

Robert Biggar, owner, proposes to convert a warehouse to a single family dwelling on a parcel located in a C3

Semi-Industry District. The owner appeals for relief from the strict application of the following sections of the

Cleveland Codified Ordinances:

1. Section 345.03(b) which states that in a Semi-Industry District no dwelling house can be established

within 200 feet of a General Industry District and the proposed property is within 200 feet of the

General Industry District to the north.

2. Section 357.01© which states that residence buildings in a Semi-Industry District require rear and side

yards.

3. Section 357.08(b)(2) which states that a rear yard of 20 feet is required and a 10 foot rear yard is

proposed.

4. Section 357.09(b)(2)(b) no side yard shall be less than three feet in width for an interior lot, nor shall

the aggregate width of the side yards on the same premises be less than 10 feet and no interior side

yards are proposed.

5. Section 355.04(b) which states that in a “C” Area District the maximum gross floor area of a dwelling

cannot exceed one-half the lot size or 1,855 in this case and 2,470 square feet are proposed (filed

October 6, 2014).

(Yeah, I changed the title. What of it)

 

 

Crews on scene of fire at Detroit Avenue

 

 

CLEVELAND - Fire crews are responding to a fire at a local business on Detroit Avenue.

Firefighters are on scene at Linda’s Superette, located at West 28th Street and Detroit Avenue. The fire is causing traffic issues in the area as people begin to leave work.

Paramedics say they haven’t made any transports.

The Cleveland Fire Department says the fire began while people were working on the roof. Fire officials say the store is not a total loss, however there was substantial damage to the store.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/crews-on-scene-of-fire-at-detroit-avenue

 

 

 

would be great to see the Monroe street cemetery, and the Cemetery near it on Fulton Rd., receive some tender loving care from the city, or somehow.

 

 

 

 

 

^Ah, that make sense, thanks.  You definitely need to prove zoning (and building code) compliance for a new C/O.  Not sure if the lot owner is shady, unsophisticated, or was just asleep at the switch when the 2011 rezoning was proposed.

 

I can see how it looks ugly to crack down, but I don't think it's a nefarious plot- it's pretty much the stated policy of the city now (championed by the elected officials here) to pursue a specific development vision for this neighborhoods.  The 2011 rezoning couldn't have made that any more clear, plus the city's stance on discretionary approvals, like the proposed McDonalds.  And it's really not unfair to incumbent land users who are following the rules.  I guess a hard line on C/Os can seem harsh, but it's a nice bright line rule that also protects (compliant) landowners. And many of these land owners will probably see their land values appreciate quite a bit of the denser, pedestrian-oriented development pattern takes hold.

 

 

So the Plain Press (Near West Side free newspaper) wrote up the resolution to this story about the used car lot at 4157 Lorain. As several folks above surmised, there was no Certificate of Occupancy. An interesting point raised during the commission meeting was that there are apparently three other used car lots in the Pedestrian Retail Overlay that were operating without CO's at that time. From the sounds of things, now that this issue has been uncovered, the city might move to shut them down as well.

 

http://plainpress.wordpress.com/2014/11/07/planning-commission-tells-lorain-avenue-used-car-dealer-it-is-time-to-move-on/

^ This could be very good news for that stretch of Lorain, which I think is the next logical path of development after W. 25. I hope someone acquires that used car lot land and builds some apartments or townhouses.

A couple of developments on BZA's Dec. 1 docket...... (EDIT: the first item is at Jay Avenue)

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2014/crr12-01-2014.pdf

 

9:30

Calendar No. 14-210: 1810 West 25th Street (Unit 3) Ward 3

Joe Cimperman

13 Notices

Tom Gillespie, owner, proposes to establish use as a café in C3 Local Retail Business District and a

Pedestrian Retail Overlay District (PRO). The owner appeals for relief from the following Sections of

the Cleveland Codified Ordinances:

1. Section 349.04(f) which states that twenty-four (24) off-street parking spaces are required.

2. Section 343.23(i) which states that in a Pedestrian Retail Overlay District the required parking

is reduced by 33%; in this case 8 off-street parking spaces are required and none are

proposed. (October 27, 2014).

 

 

9:30

Calendar No. 14-212: 3000 Bridge Avenue Ward 3

Joe Cimperman

14 Notices

WSCH, LLC, owner, proposes to establish use for four business office tenants in basement floor, total

2,692 gross floor area, in a non-conforming building authorized for 21 apartments and a coffee shop

in a B1 Two-Family Residential District. The owner appeals from the following Sections of the

Cleveland Codified Ordinances:

1. Section 337.03(a)(b) which states that business off ice is not a permitted use in a Two-Family

Residential District. Office is first permitted in a Local Retail Business District provided the use

does not exceed a total of five persons at any one time per Zoning Code Section

343.01(b)(2)(G)(3)

2. Section 359.01 which states that an expansion or substitution of a Nonconforming Use

requires approval from the Board of Zoning Appeals.

3. Section 349.04(g) which states that parking for offices is requires at the rate of one parking

space per 500 square feet of gross floor area; in this case 2,694 square feet of gross floor area

requires six additional parking spaces. (filed October 31, 2014)

 

Looks like the move in date for Mariner's Watch is Dec. 22.

 

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/apa/4790102024.html

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2014/12112014/index.php

 

Cleveland Landmarks Commission   

CITY HALL - ROOM 514 - 9:00 AM

AGENDA - December 11, 2014

 

Ohio City Historic District: Case 14-056

Clinton Apartments 3700 Clinton Avenue

New apartment building construction

 

A few of the graphics at the above link.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ Wow! I don't know how I never heard about that plan until now. It's like a sister building to Mariners Watch, though I would argue that it looks much better.

It's just one block due south of Mariner's Watch. And we still haven't seen the renders for the apartment building to replace the spa on Detroit Avenue at West 32nd.

Whoa, 70 units with underground parking, replacing a major neighborhood eyesore?  And presumably no public subsidy (other than the as-of-right tax exemption).  This is great!

Ohio City is long overdue for apartments.

 

-Sidenote.....did they typo the address? 3700 is the next block. I thought they were demo-ing the gold colored apartments for a moment.

-Sidenote.....did they typo the address? 3700 is the next block. I thought they were demo-ing the gold colored apartments for a moment.

 

Good catch.  Those buildings are between 29th and 32nd. 

The club Cleveland project should come out soon. Also, look out for news regarding the preliminary plans for another project that will be as large as all 3 of these combined.

^You're not referring to Breakwater Bluffs or the apartments on W20th and Lorain are you? 

The club Cleveland project should come out soon. Also, look out for news regarding the preliminary plans for another project that will be as large as all 3 of these combined.

 

Can you drop a little more information please?  Are you able to disclose the general area?

^You're not referring to Breakwater Bluffs or the apartments on W20th and Lorain are you?

 

It is a different project.

^I hate when he does that!! My guess is the old max Hayes school site...or the plaza across from the market?

^Good call- I'm guessing the Max Hayes site.

 

UPDATE:

 

An inside source just reminded me that Max Hayes is technically in DS, and told me that there's definitely a big project brewing in northeastern Ohio City, so definitely not referring to Max Hayes.  Hopefully we'll see an announcement soon, or another one of these wonderful, unanticipated landmarks review surprises.

Max Hayes will be in play, but state law requires the sale of that property will first have to be offered to a charter school. If there's no takers, then it will be offered to developers. The property is probably too large and expensive for a charter school to take it over. And I'm aware of developers already showing interest in that site.

 

But if the project 3231 is referring to is the one I'm thinking of, take a look at CPC's GIS map (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/gis/cpc.html) and the Pedestrian Retail Overlay districts for the area. That will give you a clue. Note the largest glob of PRO district covers both sides of West 25th between Detroit Avenue and Franklin Boulevard. That includes Lutheran Hospital's surface parking lots. Now what do urbanists prefer as the best way to accommodate parking? And what do you do with the land left over from sweeping up surface parking into a multi-level deck?? The application of a PRO District to this area allows all kinds of creative ideas to become possible.

 

EDIT: here's the PRO at the northeast corner of Ohio City.....

 

Max Hayes will be in play, but state law requires the sale of that property will first have to be offered to a charter school. If there's no takers, then it will be offered to developers. The property is probably too large and expensive for a charter school to take it over. And I'm aware of developers already showing interest in that site.

 

But if the project 3231 is referring to is the one I'm thinking of, take a look at CPC's GIS map (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/gis/cpc.html) and the Pedestrian Retail Overlay districts for the area. That will give you a clue. Note the largest glob of PRO district covers both sides of West 25th between Detroit Avenue and Franklin Boulevard. That includes Lutheran Hospital's surface parking lots. Now what do urbanists prefer as the best way to accommodate parking? And what do you do with the land left over from sweeping up surface parking into a multi-level deck?? The application of a PRO District to this area allows all kinds of creative ideas to become possible.

 

EDIT: here's the PRO at the northeast corner of Ohio City.....

 

 

Hmmm, that's ambitious. 

 

On one hand, I like the idea of growing the healthier part of the neighborhood "block by block" and this can certainly do it.

 

On the other hand, doesn't a PRO district encourage minimal setbacks from the sidewalk with the parking lots in the rear?  Isn't this a little close to Lakeview to be pushing that?

The shaded area doesn't represent the totality of a future development project. The development project would be somewhere within that shaded area. PRO Districts were established as a matter of general land use policy along all major commercial and mixed-use corridors within the service areas of CDC that requested them.

 

How does a PRO and the proximity to Lakeview correlate? If there was any correlation, it would be that improved pedestrian-friendly settings are more appropriate for low-income customers who do not need a car to patronize retailers, restaurants and other businesses.

There was an ambitious proposal years ago for a gay friendly apt building SE corner of 28th and Detroit......several floors if I recall.  Perhaps something similar on that same empty lot.

Totally honest question with no ulterior agenda: What would make an apartment building gay friendly?

There was an ambitious proposal years ago for a gay friendly apt building SE corner of 28th and Detroit......several floors if I recall.  Perhaps something similar on that same empty lot.

Totally honest question with no ulterior agenda: What would make an apartment building gay friendly?

 

More info is here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5948.0

 

^ Wow, that would have been a great asset. What happened? The thread just kind of fizzled out without explaining why the project never happened.

^The local and national economy fell apart, especially the mortgage market, and especially the mortgage market to buy (and build) new-build condos.

^ Wow, that would have been a great asset. What happened? The thread just kind of fizzled out without explaining why the project never happened.

 

The short answer is the recession killed it. It was to be a condo project. Even after the recession, condos still aren't happening. Only rentals.

Is the land on the east side of W25th between Franklin and Detroit being vacated due to issues with the ground being unstable and sliding into the river? I've heard this claim from a few Ohio City residents and stakeholders over the past two years as well as on a Cleveland bus tour. With your discussion of the PRO on W25th near Detroit, it seemed like an appropriate time to ask this!

Is the land on the east side of W25th between Franklin and Detroit being vacated due to issues with the ground being unstable and sliding into the river? I've heard this claim from a few Ohio City residents and stakeholders over the past two years as well as on a Cleveland bus tour. With your discussion of the PRO on W25th near Detroit, it seemed like an appropriate time to ask this!

 

Yes, this is still an issue.  It is very costly to install bulkheads to make that land usable.  Here is some info: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/04/efforts_to_stop_irishtown_bend.html

 

This would likely be an Army Corps of Engineer's job but they don't seem particularly motivated.  This worries me:

The Corps' August 2009 report laid out several repair options, ranging in cost from $80 million to $219 million. It also noted that no single entity has jurisdiction over the Bend, so no one bears sole responsibility for fixing the stability problem. Several private owners have title to parcels on the hillside; the roadways are the city's; the Cleveland Metropolitan Housing Authority owns the buildings and some land; the pipeline belongs to the sewer district; the Corps maintains the shipping channel; and the section of the river below the Bend is part of the Cleveland Harbor, overseen by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority.

 

The fact that there is no clear way to fix this is a huge bummer.  This could be some of the most expensive/productive real estate in Cleveland.  Adjacent to OC and offering river and city views.  But alas, it will likely rot away for some time.

 

The bulkheads are the linings of the river banks which are old and rusting away.

 

The hillsides are related but not always directly so, especially where the river is not directly below the hillside. All the hillsides above nearly all the rivers in Northern Ohio are unstable because they are clay atop shale. Shale are very porous, crumbling rocks. I've written a few articles about houses and condos built atop the Rocky River valley and many of those structures have cracks in their foundations and even sagging decks. In fact, construction of a condo development in Fairview Park was halted because the moving hillside was causing damage. However more expensive townhouses built atop cliffs in the City of Rocky River were built atop caissons sunk deep into the shale. As far as I know, those structures remain solidly in place. I would think the same could be done for structures atop the Ohio City's hillsides.

 

 

The shaded area doesn't represent the totality of a future development project. The development project would be somewhere within that shaded area. PRO Districts were established as a matter of general land use policy along all major commercial and mixed-use corridors within the service areas of CDC that requested them.

 

How does a PRO and the proximity to Lakeview correlate? If there was any correlation, it would be that improved pedestrian-friendly settings are more appropriate for low-income customers who do not need a car to patronize retailers, restaurants and other businesses.

 

We've touched on this before.  Putting the parking lots in the rear in a high crime area is very dangerous.  I don't think it's remotely a stretch to speculate that the areas immediately adjacent to Lakeview qualify and indeed I have heard CPD officers comment that most of the things stolen in the market/GLBC area end up going north of the Shoreway.

 

Point taken about businesses in that area catering to lower income customers, but is this something development money needs to be spent on.

First, west 25 is not a high crime area. Crimes happen everywhere and we hear about them in west 25th because it is surprising when they do happen.

 

Second, yes, parking behind a building can be more dangerous....so you put lighting and cameras back there. But there are also thousands of good people who live and walk around in ohio city. They have their eyes on the street too.

 

And third, saying parking should be on the front of buildings because you deem an area unsafe now misses the point. An area is unsafe when people feel like they cannot walk around safely by themselves. If all of our buildings are set back from the street then no one will want to walk around and therefore it would feel more unsafe. Putting active, bright buildings up to the street improves safety because more people are watching the streets, walking around the streets, and going to businesses. If we all just drove in and drove out, it would make it less safe.

In regards to the hillside bordered by Detroit west 25th and the river I have heard from city and OC officials the money has been found to shore up the hillside in a way it can be used for recreational purposes.  All the buildings from the west 25t/Detroit corner to the Urban Farm will be removed.  Land Studios is working on the plan for an urban park on the site.  Of course lots has to be done before this happens but that is the use for the land that is being pursued.

Ditto with CbusTransit, OC is not a high crime area like it was back in the 70's - 90's. Once W. 25th started to take off, and more people started shopping & dining in OC, the crime rate has gone down.

 

To a person looking to commit a crime, does anyone really thing that person would first think, oh wait, I cannot commit this crime because the parking lot is in front of the shopping center vs. the back of the center.

 

And camera's don't matter to potential law breakers either (in general). Just look at all the great shots we get of bank robbers. If I was thinking of robbing something (and I'm not), it surely would not be a bank. They have more camera's then almost any other type of building in the country.

 

My conclusion of bank robbers is they do it not for the money, but the food, water, shelter, and clothing they get from robbing the bank. And these are only the basic needs "benefits" of robbing a bank if caught (and over 90% are caught).

In regards to the hillside bordered by Detroit west 25th and the river I have heard from city and OC officials the money has been found to shore up the hillside in a way it can be used for recreational purposes.  All the buildings from the west 25t/Detroit corner to the Urban Farm will be removed.  Land Studios is working on the plan for an urban park on the site.  Of course lots has to be done before this happens but that is the use for the land that is being pursued.

 

This is good news! I would still prefer upscale housing with awesome views, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. An urban park is probably the best thing that could happen to that area at the moment. If it's designed well, then it could really help activate that area across W. 25th.

When you design a neighborhood with fear as one of your motivations, you end up with buildings that look like bunkers set back from the street, sometimes behind parking, fences and berms (like MetroHealth) or decorative boarding or bricking over windows (like so many storefronts) making it less accessible or assuring to low-income people as pedestrians/transit riders, you reduce the number of people on the sidewalks, and you convey to would-be customers, visitors and residents that the area is dangerous. Thus you end up worsening the economic and safety conditions you think you're attempting to address.

 

Good, inclusive design can make an area safe and vibrant. Fear is the only ingredient you don't include.

Ohio City is rocking!! This is the site currently occupied by Club Cleveland, the vacant purple spa, as reported on here:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/07/vintage_development_group_plan.html

 

Here's the CPC agenda item....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/pdf/NW_Meeting_Agenda_12-10-14.pdf

 

Near West Design Review District

Agenda

(8:30 a.m., Wednesday, December 10th, 2014)

Dollar Bank, 3115 West 25th Street

 

9:15 a.m. 4

NW 2014-026: 3219 Detroit Avenue Apartments ©

3219 Detroit Avenue

Project Representatives – Chip Marous, Vintage Development Group;

Dominic Durante, Principal, LDA Architects; Ben Trimble, Ohio City, Inc.

Revisions to design of a 60-unit, 6-story mid-rise apartment building to include

approximately 4,000 s.f. of ground floor retail and 25 outdoor and 42 covered

parking spaces. Sponsor to present revised building elevations, landscaping and

streetscape treatments based on Design Review Committee input and results of

meeting w/City staff.

Aaaaahhhhhhh!!

 

Snavely Group ties up prime Ohio City corners for 240 apartments, other development (gallery)

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A suburban developer is planting a high-profile stake in Ohio City, where a project at West 25th Street and Detroit Avenue could form a new link between downtown Cleveland and the city's West Side.

 

The Snavely Group of Chagrin Falls has lined up deals to buy two key corners of that intersection for a mixed-use, mixed-income development. On the southwest corner, a pair of historic buildings could be renovated for 35 low-income apartments and ground-floor businesses. To the north, on a site that's largely parking lot today, Snavely envisions 205 full-priced apartments and commercial space.

 

The $60 million investment would remake a prominent stretch of road, where more than 30,000 cars and countless buses pass by each day but there's little incentive to pause, to walk or to hop off a bicycle. Snavely's vision also might set the tone for other projects along Detroit, a corridor seeing a surge of interest from apartment developers and other real estate investors.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_river

This is good news! I would still prefer upscale housing with awesome views, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. An urban park is probably the best thing that could happen to that area at the moment. If it's designed well, then it could really help activate that area across W. 25th.

 

And honestly, some taller new-build apartments on the west side of the street could still take advantage of the views.

Doesnt seem logical that these buildings would be restricted to low income. 

 

So again..."low income" is or isn't section 8?  no?

Aaaaahhhhhhh!!

 

Snavely Group ties up prime Ohio City corners for 240 apartments, other development (gallery)

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A suburban developer is planting a high-profile stake in Ohio City, where a project at West 25th Street and Detroit Avenue could form a new link between downtown Cleveland and the city's West Side.

 

The Snavely Group of Chagrin Falls has lined up deals to buy two key corners of that intersection for a mixed-use, mixed-income development. On the southwest corner, a pair of historic buildings could be renovated for 35 low-income apartments and ground-floor businesses. To the north, on a site that's largely parking lot today, Snavely envisions 205 full-priced apartments and commercial space.

 

The $60 million investment would remake a prominent stretch of road, where more than 30,000 cars and countless buses pass by each day but there's little incentive to pause, to walk or to hop off a bicycle. Snavely's vision also might set the tone for other projects along Detroit, a corridor seeing a surge of interest from apartment developers and other real estate investors.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_river

 

There it is! Huge.

Doesnt seem logical that these buildings would be restricted to low income. 

 

 

Hi there -

 

As the story notes, there will be 35 low-income units in the existing buildings. And then 205 market-rate units in a five-story, newly constructed building on the north side of Detroit. The vast majority of the project is market-rate. (Also, in reference to another question, low-income is not synonymous with Section 8.)

 

Michelle

Ditto with CbusTransit, OC is not a high crime area like it was back in the 70's - 90's. Once W. 25th started to take off, and more people started shopping & dining in OC, the crime rate has gone down.

 

To a person looking to commit a crime, does anyone really thing that person would first think, oh wait, I cannot commit this crime because the parking lot is in front of the shopping center vs. the back of the center.

 

And camera's don't matter to potential law breakers either (in general). Just look at all the great shots we get of bank robbers. If I was thinking of robbing something (and I'm not), it surely would not be a bank. They have more camera's then almost any other type of building in the country.

 

My conclusion of bank robbers is they do it not for the money, but the food, water, shelter, and clothing they get from robbing the bank. And these are only the basic needs "benefits" of robbing a bank if caught (and over 90% are caught).

 

More often than not, they do it because they have a drug habit and are incapable of thinking ahead.

 

The hidden parking lot does not increase the risks to the business.  What it does is dramatically increase the risks to people using the lot.

Aaaaahhhhhhh!!

 

Snavely Group ties up prime Ohio City corners for 240 apartments, other development (gallery)

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A suburban developer is planting a high-profile stake in Ohio City, where a project at West 25th Street and Detroit Avenue could form a new link between downtown Cleveland and the city's West Side.

 

The Snavely Group of Chagrin Falls has lined up deals to buy two key corners of that intersection for a mixed-use, mixed-income development. On the southwest corner, a pair of historic buildings could be renovated for 35 low-income apartments and ground-floor businesses. To the north, on a site that's largely parking lot today, Snavely envisions 205 full-priced apartments and commercial space.

 

The $60 million investment would remake a prominent stretch of road, where more than 30,000 cars and countless buses pass by each day but there's little incentive to pause, to walk or to hop off a bicycle. Snavely's vision also might set the tone for other projects along Detroit, a corridor seeing a surge of interest from apartment developers and other real estate investors.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_river

 

"Mixed income" rarely if ever happens.  The vast majority of people with options do not choose to live in close proximity to public housing.  The exception may be low income senior citizen housing.  Indeed, if I wanted to sell a project and was worried about hearing the "g word", that's what I would do.

 

 

The comment section after Michelle's story are just exceptional today.  LMAO...

The comment section after Michelle's story are just exceptional today.  LMAO...

 

It was cracking me up too.  Imagine logging into a Cleveland.com account with the username "Kenyanidiot."

"The developer envisions the lower-cost apartments as homes for teachers, police officers, artists and restaurant workers."

 

Seems he just wants to make it affordable for people in various professions to enjoy the amenities of Ohio City without paying an astronomical price.

 

EDIT: I also like that commercial space will be apart of the new construction.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/snavely_group_ties_up_sites_fo.html#incart_gallery

"Mixed income" rarely if ever happens.  The vast majority of people with options do not choose to live in close proximity to public housing.  The exception may be low income senior citizen housing.  Indeed, if I wanted to sell a project and was worried about hearing the "g word", that's what I would do.

 

Again, we rejoin the alternate universe of eRocc. Most buildings which use the low-income tax credits are mixed income. There are simply too many to name, just in Cleveland. But one of the largest and longest-continuing is the National Terminals Building on West 9th.

 

EDIT: Don't take my word for what makes a city work....

 

TODERIAN UrbanWORKS ‏@TODUrbanWORKS  4m4 minutes ago

“Mix the city & the people rather than dispersing them. Cities need to be compact & complex." http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/dec/08/jan-gehl-make-cities-liveable-urban-rethinker?utm_content=buffer71bb4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer