If an intercity rail station is to be located outside of the downtown area, doesn't it make more sense politically and logistically to locate in Norwood or another more central area?  From an operations standpoint, the Lunken location works because that line is the same one which weaves northwest through Norwood (passes under the B&O mainline) to parallel Reading Rd. and then reaches Butler County.  A Lunken terminus versus a Norwood terminus adds maybe 5 minutes to the trip.  But the west side of the county isn't going to be keen on catching trains on the east side.   

But the west side of the county isn't going to be keen on catching trains on the east side.

 

Good point. I just don't know how you keep a passenger train on schedule through the Mill Creek Valley, and that's the fatal flaw of trying to locate it downtown. Norwood is a good idea.

I fear that a location out near Lunken would promote sprawl related development(s)...whereas a location in/around Norwood would promote the TOD we would all love to see.

 

A Lunken location would also set the stage for an uneven distribution of rail if/when it ever happens here.  Light rail would logically build around that location and as you mentioned an electric streetcar line would be in use to tie that spot in with Downtown and the rest of the urban core.  This would leave little to no impetus to connect the westside with rail and would be turning its back on many of the more central city neighborhoods that might not want to transfer 2-3 times to get all the way over to Lunken.

 

In a nutshell, Norwood seems to be a MUCH better option.

^ One problem is, Norwood is one of the most hostile communities in the entire region with respect to rail. If they object to electric light rail there, I'm guessing they will even more strongly object to diesel rail.

^ Let's just Annex . . . or a hostile takeover.  :)  I'm kidding . . . but not really.

^ One problem is, Norwood is one of the most hostile communities in the entire region with respect to rail. If they object to electric light rail there, I'm guessing they will even more strongly object to diesel rail.

 

I think $4/gallon gas might change some minds.

>I'm guessing they will even more strongly object to diesel rail.

 

That despite having the B&O and other freight rail routes? 

 

Also the rail line which originates near Lunken (which formerly ran to downtown) actually heads to Hamilton, then around Middletown's north side, then to Dayton.  It passes under the Norfolk-Southern line near General Electric, and the NS line is the one that heads directly to Middletown.  The B&O in Norwood heads more or less due east out of Cincinnati in Warren County but one branch makes its way to Columbus via Wilmington and Washington Court House.  It has some long straightaways that would allow high speed so my thought is this is the best line for reaching Columbus. 

^ I agree, but for many years a state legislator from Dayton has insisted that the CCC rail go through Dayton on its way to Columbus. When I've asked why it has to go through Dayton in the past -- hardly the fastest way to Columbus, the answer I get is "Politics."

 

Not sure if that still holds.

On the highway side, I think the upgrade of SR 32 in the Eastgate Area is proceeding:

 

See http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D08/Pages/PublicInvolvementMeetingSchedule.aspx

 

Look under * Clermont County I-275 & SR-32 Interchange  (2nd slot down)

 

The I-275/OH-32 interchange is going forward because it is one of the highest accident rates in the state.  I don't think any of the mass transit parts of the plan are involved.

The I-275/OH-32 interchange is going forward because it is one of the highest accident rates in the state.  I don't think any of the mass transit parts of the plan are involved.

 

Of course not...isn't this what John has been saying from the get go.  This project threw in promises of multi-modal transit in order to appeal to those that might otherwise be opposed to just another road project.

Right, and I really don't see mass transit coming through the median of Ohio Route 32 any day. The median would be better used, in that instance, for an additional lane in each direction with a jersey barrier, because the median is smaller than that of most interstate highways in Ohio and it cannot support two tracks with room to spare.

 

The interchange really does need to be reconstructed, but for a reason entirely unrelated to mass transit. The cloverleaf design might have been great 40 years ago, but the lack of an adequate collector/distributor system, the close proximity of nearby intersections and interchanges, and the high VPD count... this should have been done a decade ago.

Right, and I really don't see mass transit coming through the median of Ohio Route 32 any day. The median would be better used, in that instance, for an additional lane in each direction with a jersey barrier, because the median is smaller than that of most interstate highways in Ohio and it cannot support two tracks with room to spare.

 

The interchange really does need to be reconstructed, but for a reason entirely unrelated to mass transit. The cloverleaf design might have been great 40 years ago, but the lack of an adequate collector/distributor system, the close proximity of nearby intersections and interchanges, and the high VPD count... this should have been done a decade ago.

 

Glad to see Ohio requesting stimulus money for the Eastern Corridor rail project.  But I definitely agree that US-32 through Eastgate needs to be fixed as well.  I'm not sure of all the history of 32, but it seems like it the new 32 was originally intended to be grade-separated, but they changed their mind and started adding stoplights at some point along the way.  They need add a collector/distributor system, or figure out a way to use Old 32 (actually Old 74) as a local route, as it already connects to 32 on both sides of the mall area (as well as criss-crossing it at several other points).

The City of Cincinnati has submitted a $100 million request for the Eastern Corridor line which can be seen here:

http://zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/article/99999999/DATABASES/90224005?appSession=989151649580686&RecordID=8360&PageID=3&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=4&CPIsortType=desc&CPIorderBy=Estimated_Stimulus_Amount

Just looked at the Preferred Alternative for US-32 here and don't know what I think about it.

 

Phase one of the project adds two stoplights to US-32 at the I-275 interchange, which goes against what I suggested above.  It adds a Superstreet/Michigan Left system to the west of the interchange, and I'm not sure if that's been tried in Cincinnati before.  Phase two removes the path from I-275 to the Eastgate Mall, requiring drivers to go way around the block and use Old 74, but the plan doesn't suggest any improvements for Old 74.  it also requires the acquisition of several buildings, including Eastgate Adventures and its awesome mini-golf mountain!!!!!

It looks like the Riverfront Transit Center is up for grabs -- although if limited freight traffic continues on the Oasis line the LRV's will have to be crash compatible with freight rail, meaning they could share trackage in the transit center with Amtrak.  Of course they'd have to be high platform LRV's in that case.  Or one track in the transit center could have a high platform and the light rail line could have low platform.  Or east side light rail could terminate at Main St. and Amtrak could terminate between Main & Walnut.  The streetcar line will intersect directly above on Main and Walnut.   

Phase two removes the path from I-275 to the Eastgate Mall, requiring drivers to go way around the block and use Old 74, but the plan doesn't suggest any improvements for Old 74.

 

My mistake... it looks like there is an option for drivers on I-275 S to to go through the stop light and exit onto Eastgate Blvd.  The new ramp is only for drivers who wish to bypass Eastgate Blvd.

"Transportation-related requests also include $460 million to rebuild and expand a portion of I-75; $75 million for the proposed Cincinnati streetcar; [glow=yellow,2,300]$19.6 million for the eastern corridor light rail[/glow], bus and road project; $9.9 million for Metro transit centers in Walnut Hills, Northside and University of Cincinnati; and $3 million for the design of a new interchange at I-71 and Martin Luther King Drive."

 

See full article here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9.msg373695.html#msg373695

"Transportation-related requests also include $460 million to rebuild and expand a portion of I-75; $75 million for the proposed Cincinnati streetcar; [glow=yellow,2,300]$19.6 million for the eastern corridor light rail[/glow], bus and road project; $9.9 million for Metro transit centers in Walnut Hills, Northside and University of Cincinnati; and $3 million for the design of a new interchange at I-71 and Martin Luther King Drive."

 

See full article here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9.msg373695.html#msg373695

 

How much is $19.6 million actually going to do for the Eastern Corridor project?

But the west side of the county isn't going to be keen on catching trains on the east side.

 

I think the old Showcase Cinemas lot and adjoining properties that front Norwood Lateral would be a good location, and  part of it is technically in Bond Hill.

Good point. I just don't know how you keep a passenger train on schedule through the Mill Creek Valley, and that's the fatal flaw of trying to locate it downtown. Norwood is a good idea.

ODOT announced yesterday  that approx 20 million in stimulus funding would be awarded to the Eastern Corridor project.

^This strikes me as bad news, since I imagine $20 million can only be used for road expansion.

What's going on with this whole thing...it seemed that this project funding came out of left field.  I too would assume that the $20m is for the road portion of the project.  If we're lucky then maybe they'll throw in that lip service piece of a bike trail.

Cincinnati's Eastern Corridor project picks up speed with $20M stimulus

Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Dan Monk Senior Staff Reporter

 

The lead consultant for the Eastern Corridor transportation plan predicts the engineering and planning firms working on the project will hire up to 20 new employees now that $20 million in federal stimulus money has been guided to the project.

 

“Almost every firm on our team has gone through reductions and would be adding staff,” said John Cox, vice president and Cincinnati division manager for Entran, a Lexington-based firm.

 

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/04/06/tidbits1.html

^This looks like more of the same sort of suburban support development.

ODOT posted an advertisement for preliminary engineering for the Eastern Corridor today.  It includes rail transit and SR-32.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/ProdMgt/Consultant/Consultant/odot.pdf

starting on Page 2 (this is a live document so the page numbers will change)

 

and a Q and A document

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/ProdMgt/Consultant/Consultant/Eastern_Corridor_Questions_and_Answers.pdf

ODOT has canceled ARRA funding for the Eastern Corridor Study

^Care to elaborate?

East Enders Air Concerns Over Hi-Speed Rail Plan

Reported by: Tom McKee

Email: [email protected]

 

East End community leaders and residents sent a strong message to Cincinnati leaders Tuesday.

 

They like the idea for 3-C "Fresh Start" high-speed rail service connecting Cincinnati with Columbus and Cleveland, however, they don’t want a temporary station built along Riverside Drive between the Boathouse and Theodore Berry Park.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/East-Enders-Air-Concerns-Over-Hi-Speed-Rail-Plan/-eqIM9zg4E2QcRxjU1Mq3w.cspx

^Care to elaborate?

 

State now says highway stimulus funds won't pay for any studies

Monday,  June 15, 2009 4:50 PM

 

 

ASSOCIATED PRESS

COLUMBUS -- Ohio will use its share of federal highway stimulus money for construction-ready road projects, giving up the idea of using a portion for studies and design work.

 

Ohio initially passed over some construction projects, steering 7 percent of its $774 million in highway stimulus money for planning and preliminary studies. The move angered some local leaders who hoped the money would build even more new roads and bridges.

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation said today that all $57 million that had been set aside for planning will go toward construction projects. Spokesman Scott Varner says the move was made at the request of federal transportation officials, who preferred to see the money spent on projects that could create jobs quickly.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/06/15/ohio_stimulus.html?sid=101

^Thanks for the information...makes sense.

Note that projects are still moving forward - just under different funding source.

 

From ODOT's press release:

 

"ODOT remains committed to working with local leaders on these three important large-scale projects and will use non-stimulus funds (both state and federal) to invest in the continued planning and design, dollar-for-dollar, as committed to by the department in its March announcement."

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/news/Pages/ODOTsStimulusInvestmentsspurringmoreConstruction-RelatedJobs.aspx

 

Newtown: Nix Eastern Corridor plan

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090714/NEWS01/907150375/1055/NEWS/Newtown++Nix+Eastern+Corridor+plan

 

Don't build a new regional highway through Newtown.

 

That was the clear message Newtown residents and business owners expressed Tuesday to Hamilton County and Ohio transportation officials.

 

"It would destroy homes and businesses," former Mayor John Russell said. "This is unacceptable."

How loud will the east side have to yell before folks at ODOT and elsewhere realize they don't believe more roads are the answer?

What about rail through Newtown and other parts of the Eastern Corridor? 

Route it around Newtown and let them miss out.

Ohio Route 32 does need upgrading regardless of Newtown's stance on the issue. A bypass of Newtown, preferably the the east so it doesn't impact the Little Miami River (which would get the proposal killed very quickly) would be preferable. The highway is pretty much gridlocked from Beechmont to Newtown and is very slow going for much of the day to the four-lane segment. I assume with this, they would completely revise the horrible split and steep grade by eliminating the mid-grade intersection and driveways.

The city and county should fight for stimulus money to get the Oasis line up and running. It would be an excellent feeder for the streetcar.

If the EC rail portion is built how does it get from Sawyer Point to the Riverfront Transit Center? I'm not familiar with the plans.

It's complicated... Basically it would have to cross Pete Rose Way and maneuver between the pilings of Fort Washington Way. The only place for this would probably be near the old ramp from the Purple People Bridge, and would require some land swapping.

It's complicated... Basically it would have to cross Pete Rose Way and maneuver between the pilings of Fort Washington Way. The only place for this would probably be near the old ramp from the Purple People Bridge, and would require some land swapping.

 

I'm not 100 percent sure on this, but I think a light rail line running along the oasis line to the transit center would turn North beneath the walkway connecting U.S. Bank Arena and Great American Ballpark, right by the public landing then cross Pete Rose Way into the transit center entrance. Right about here:

 

It's my understanding that it needs more time to hit the transit center straight on, that's why it requires lining up further back. I don't know if there are any documents saying one way or the other. My understanding comes from discussions with a consultant that worked on the plan.

^Oh, ok, I wasn't sure either. That way just kind of always made the most sense to me, but I'm not really educated on the plan that well. I think the transit center definitely needs to be utilized though and the Eastern Corridor would be a great way to start.

The Transit Center is the perfect place for a Cincy Transit Hub. You could have the EC, Light rail from the south and north connecting all at the same point along with buses. Something like what Seattle has. I think an I-71/75 light rail line makes more sense but the EC could be a good starting point coupled with the streetcar.

If the Transit Center is used for traditional heavy rail commuter rail, it will swing up from Bicentennial Commons on the east side of the L&N Bridge and then travel as single track along the northern edge of Pete Rose Way, where there is now a sidewalk.  I don't think it's really an issue if it runs in-street on Pete Rose Way since there's typically not a lot of traffic down there.  I also don't think there will be enough train traffic to require 2 tracks between the transit center and the Boathouse.  Even at a walking speed, that distance can be traversed in 5 minutes and its doubtful there will ever be headways shorter than 15 minutes. Light rail with shorter cars could swing in front of the Coliseum and then under the pedestrian plaza between it and the Reds stadium.   

 

John Schneider has suggest running a modern streetcar line on the ROW out to or near Lunken Airport, and if Milford ever wants commuter rail, run it as  light rail across the Wasson Rd. line to the inevitable Xavier junction.  I think the modern streetcar would be a great fit for this route, and would be much more compatible with a parallel bike path. 

What's that body of water in the photo above? It can't be the Ohio River... Is that a rare piece of Deer Creek that hasn't been put into a culvert? I had no idea it was there, although I haven't poked around that part of the city very much since the ballpark was built.

No, that's the Ohio River poking up that boat ramp.  The wide angle makes it look wider than it is. 

That's not even a boat ramp...well it is way further down.  That is more what I would describe as Broadway's underpass for Mehring Way.  The Ohio would have had to have been ~40 feet here.

I checked Google Earth and it's visible between the ballpark and the arena, running perpendicular to the river. (In the Google Earth view, the Ohio River appears to be at flood stage.)

 

Now that jmecklenborg mentions it, you can just barely see the paved boat ramp at the far left edge of the photo above. It would have to be a pretty short boat to get under the new Mehring Way overpass and pedestrian plaza, though.