Portman wants the streetcar money.

 

Yeah, well, he's not going to get it. No way would Eastern Corridor rail qualify.

Portman wants the streetcar money.

 

Yeah, well, he's not going to get it. No way would Eastern Corridor rail qualify.

 

If Cincinnati kills the streetcar, you can kiss the other rail projects goodbye for the next couple of decades. If Cincinnati cannot even complete a starter streetcar project, who shoud any surrounding jurisdiction want to get involved in anything even remotely having rail in the name?

^I think it actually could go either way.  In the more likely scenario, rail of all kinds is dead here for years, as you stated.  In a less likely but still plausible scenario, the city cancels the streetcar.  The utter waste and disregard for the common good disgusts the public, who in this region normally just accept a lack of rail as the way things are.  They begin to ask, "why don't we have a regional light rail system like every other major city anyway?"  This galvanizes rail supporters and provides momentum for something like Metro Moves, momentum that didn't exist back in 2002.  Much of the anti-streetcar crowd claims to want light rail.  If there's any truth to that, Cranley's antics may be stirring up something unexpected.  That's a long shot, though, so I'm still hoping the current streetcar plan moves forward.

It's a basic law of physics. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. The Denver light rail thread is instructive because their fast-growing, multi-line, multi-billion, voter-approved system started with a very short, basic starter rail line.

 

Do you know why the Red Line in Cleveland was built (the first new rail line built after World War II)? Because west-side Cleveland interests wanted a rail line like the Shaker Rapid on the east side. The "me-too" factor can be very powerful motivation in getting something done.

Todd Portune is running for governor. If he wins im sure this project will get on the way, but bad news for phase 2 of the streetcar.

^LOL no chance Portune wins governor.

What do you think about building commuter rail from the East Side?

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation is considering whether and how to build a commuter rail line from downtown Cincinnati to Fairfax to Milford, and it wants to know what you think.

 

The public has until Jan. 10 to submit online comments on the 17-mile Oasis rail line at www.EasternCorridor.org.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2014/01/what-do-you-think-about-building.html

So far those who have completed the survey are very unconcerned about pedestrian access, bicycle access, and really demanding free parking, on-site security, etc for the stations. They are not concerned about providing amenities near the station. They simply want to park at the station, get to work, and get home. Once you complete the survey you can see how the masses responded. Also, schedule frequency is one of the least preferred amenities for the service. It's like people have never ridden transit before...

 

So we are probably going to get service that runs 5 times/day in each direction with plenty of free parking around it providing no benefit for the communities they serve except to decrease congestion on Columbia Parkway and 275. You likely won't be able to walk to downtown Mariemont, Milford, Newtown, etc. This will be exactly what it says: commuter rail. Personally, this project seems like a huge waste of money if that is the case.

A republican has not lost re-election in Ohio in half a century. Dems get swept out with the economic tide all the time.

 

There is no way Kasich will lose re-election. There would have to be a massive scandal or downturn.

Also, schedule frequency is one of the least preferred amenities for the service. It's like people have never ridden transit before...

 

That's because they haven't.  They don't understand what they should be asking for because they literally have no basis for comparison.  Hopefully if this project does proceed, they bring in an expert with real transit experience that can deliver what the people don't yet realize they need.

Also, schedule frequency is one of the least preferred amenities for the service. It's like people have never ridden transit before...

 

That's because they haven't.  They don't understand what they should be asking for because they literally have no basis for comparison.  Hopefully if this project does proceed, they bring in an expert with real transit experience that can deliver what the people don't yet realize they need.

 

^Yeah. I just know these stations are going to isolated from the communities they serve. It would be nice if you could take the train from Downtown to Mariemont and not have to cross a sea of parking to get to Mariemont. Unfortunately, there will be no stop in Mariemont under the current plan and I bet the station will fully circles by parking and require a mile walk to any real walkable neighborhood. Let's instead invest this money in Wasson Way, Montgomery Road, Madison Road, Hamilton Avenue, etc. and provide real benefits to the communities they are serving.

^I totally agree that Wasson Way, etc. are better routes, but you'll face the same problems with people wanting tons of parking at the station since there's no rail anywhere near Cincinnati and the vast majority of Cincinnatians do not understand how it is actually supposed to work.  You almost need the Eastern Corridor as an example of what not to do, versus the streetcar which will illustrate the value of walkability.  Seems like you could do a mix, with some stations having huge lots and others (Mariemont) having none, but that doesn't sound like what's on the table.

I'm not transportation expert by any means so I can only give anecdotal input.

I currently live in Salt Lake City and we have a commuter rail system called the FrontRunner that connects SLC to Ogden in the north and Provo in the south. It's about 40 miles each way from SLC to the ends of the line.

 

The reason I think a commuter line along the Eastern Corridor makes sense is because the FrontRunner is successful here in the SLC region with a lower population density than Cincinnati. Many of the FrontRunner stations in the suburbs are simple park and rides and aren't located next to shopping or dense residential neighborhoods. There are also some pretty long runs through scrubby desert with literally nothing nearby but it's pretty successful.

 

My question is, where would the Oasis line terminate? I know that ROW was preserved from Sawyer Point to the Riverfront Transit Center but it would require laying track to make the final connection. Is this the plan?

Station-area development is as much as part of the planning and implementation process as the siting of stations. All of the details are spelled out here.....

 

http://easterncorridor.org/projects/oasis-rail-transit/oasis-rail-transit-project-overview/

Look, there still has been zero explanation by Todd Portune as to how construction of this thing is going to be funded or how its outrageous $20 million operating cost will be covered. 

 

Nashville's Music City Star only cost $40 million to get running but this thing is going to cost more than $400 million.  The annual operating subsidy will be $20 million -- 10X more than the streetcar for about the same number of riders. 

 

 

There is no public demand to build the Oasis Rail.

 

Best evidence: this thread stated nine years ago, and as of today, we're on the 17th page. The Cincinnati Streecar thread started seven years ago, and we're on the 668th page.

 

Among people in the know, the story is that former Hamilton County Commission John Dowlin, when he was president of OKI, needed something to do. So OKI staff cooked up the Oasis Rail plan for him to champion. Dowlin subsequently lost an election, and now it has fallen to Todd Portune to carry this torch, such as it is.

 

I'm kind of amazed it has hung around so long with no prospect of ever getting built.

 

 

I don't like how it goes through so much flood plain.

Look, there still has been zero explanation by Todd Portune as to how construction of this thing is going to be funded or how its outrageous $20 million operating cost will be covered. 

 

Nashville's Music City Star only cost $40 million to get running but this thing is going to cost more than $400 million.  The annual operating subsidy will be $20 million -- 10X more than the streetcar for about the same number of riders.

 

You're $20 million operating cost seems a little cherry picked because it depends on how often it runs (late night, weekends, frequent, special events like Reds games, etc) and I have no idea where you got the $400 million start up cost. The number I have heard is closer to $60-$80 million because much of the rail is already in place.

 

I'm not transportation expert by any means so I can only give anecdotal input.

I currently live in Salt Lake City and we have a commuter rail system called the FrontRunner that connects SLC to Ogden in the north and Provo in the south. It's about 40 miles each way from SLC to the ends of the line.

 

The reason I think a commuter line along the Eastern Corridor makes sense is because the FrontRunner is successful here in the SLC region with a lower population density than Cincinnati. Many of the FrontRunner stations in the suburbs are simple park and rides and aren't located next to shopping or dense residential neighborhoods. There are also some pretty long runs through scrubby desert with literally nothing nearby but it's pretty successful.

 

My question is, where would the Oasis line terminate? I know that ROW was preserved from Sawyer Point to the Riverfront Transit Center but it would require laying track to make the final connection. Is this the plan?

 

The line will go approximately 16 miles. Not very comparable to the SLC line that goes 40 miles and connects large communities. Milford is not a large community and I don't see many people in the area driving their car to park at a train station to wait for a train to take them downtown that leaves each direction about 5 times a day and the last one leaves downtown before 6pm. Just doesn't make any sense to me and I'm worried it will be pushed through too quickly by people who don't really understand what they are doing (ie. Todd Portune).

What other cities built commuter rail before they had light rail/rapid transit in place?

^Nashville, Albuquerque, and Seattle, I guess?

>You're $20 million operating cost seems a little cherry picked because it depends on how often it runs (late night, weekends, frequent, special events like Reds games, etc) and I have no idea where you got the $400 million start up cost. The number I have heard is closer to $60-$80 million because much of the rail is already in place.

 

No, the entire railroad between Downtown and Red Bank Rd. has to be rebuilt.  They can't use *any* of it in its current condition.  Trains are currently limited to 12mph due to the condition of the tracks.  They are trying to call the Oasis Line "light rail" because it will use DMU's, which can travel on lighter weight tracks like those being installed currently for the streetcar project, but the problem is that the Oasis Line will still be shared with freight trains, meaning reconstruction will require full-sized freight railroad tracks.  Then there is the horrendously high cost of DMU's. 

 

Here are some old articles where the $400 million figure appears (scroll way down):

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/commuterrail.html

 

Here is what circa-2001 DMU's look and sound like, hopefully new ones will be a little nicer looking and quieter:

 

 

Here's the cliff notes from the most recent Oasis Project documents (Nov. 2013)-

 

Capital Cost- $230-322 million (mid would be $275m)

Operating Costs- $3.5 million for eight trips per direction per day on weekdays. Five  per morning, two in the midday/afternoon and one in the evening going in. The reverse in the pm rush. Last train is at 6pm. Headways are 30 minutes for all peak trips (although there is one section of the schedule where you'll have a 15 minute headway for one train)

Ridership- 3060 (weekdays)

 

Add in weekend and evening service and you're up to $5.5 million in operating costs for 3240 daily riders and 740 a day weekend riders

 

More info here- http://easterncorridor.org/projects/oasis-rail-transit/oasis-rail-transit-documents/

^ And for this, the City of Cincinnati gets a grand total of two regular stops within the city limits - three if you count the Boahouse which may be a stop for some special events.

Part of the reason Nashville's Star was so cheap is because they used old used Metra trains from Chicago. Could we not try something similar so this wouldn't be so incredibly expensive?

^ And for this, the City of Cincinnati gets a grand total of two regular stops within the city limits - three if you count the Boahouse which may be a stop for some special events.

Cincinnatians certainly get no destinations.

Part of the reason Nashville's Star was so cheap is because they used old used Metra trains from Chicago. Could we not try something similar so this wouldn't be so incredibly expensive?

 

While I don't know the details of this proposal too well, the line could also possibly use surplus SEPTA Comet coaches. These are single level stainless steel commuter MU cars, some of which were rebuilt as intercity cars and sent to California. That may address any overhead clearance concerns.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work with NS, CSX, or I&O to use one of their lines to Sharonville, Blue Ash, or West Chester? Hate to keep bringing up SLC, but our commuter rail uses some Union Pacific ROW.

 

I know the main problem is getting the trains downtown.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work with NS, CSX, or I&O to use one of their lines to Sharonville, Blue Ash, or West Chester? Hate to keep bringing up SLC, but our commuter rail uses some Union Pacific ROW.

 

I know the main problem is getting the trains downtown.

 

The key would be to make the freight railroads whole, to not negatively impact their existing operations and allow capacity for future growth.

 

The FrontRunner service in SLC uses the UP right of way, but operates almost entirely on a track separate from the freight track(s). Here is a video showing the new track infrastructure built for the FrontRunner....

 

^

I think this is where we will end up going with both commuter and intercity operations. The freights have consolidated down to a core of very heavily used lines, making expansion of existing service or new service almost prohibitive and if you are going to spend that much, you may as well go all the way with dedicated trackage and be the master of your own house. The question is, as always, where is the money going to come from and that will be answered slowly over time as demand continues to increase.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work with NS, CSX, or I&O to use one of their lines to Sharonville, Blue Ash, or West Chester? Hate to keep bringing up SLC, but our commuter rail uses some Union Pacific ROW.

 

I know the main problem is getting the trains downtown.

 

The key would be to make the freight railroads whole, to not negatively impact their existing operations and allow capacity for future growth.

 

The FrontRunner service in SLC uses the UP right of way, but operates almost entirely on a track separate from the freight track(s). Here is a video showing the new track infrastructure built for the FrontRunner....

 

 

While it operates on it's own tracks for the most part, I am pretty sure that UP runs locals over the FR line during off ours. I know for a fact that they do this on the TRAX light rail line as my daily commute goes by several rail-served businesses with covered hoppers parked beside them and you see railroad signals on the line.

 

Either way, I think that while a commuter line to Blue Ash, using I&O's track or something like that makes sense, the EC isn't as terrible as some make it seem.

The UP tracks parallel the FrontRunner track and host through freight traffic. However UP has operating rights over the FrontRunner track, mostly for serving local customers on the other side of the FrontRunner track.

 

Typically this is done with a time-of-day separation, such as on the RiverLINE between Trenton and Camden, NJ.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work with NS, CSX, or I&O to use one of their lines to Sharonville, Blue Ash, or West Chester? Hate to keep bringing up SLC, but our commuter rail uses some Union Pacific ROW.

 

I know the main problem is getting the trains downtown.

 

Rail traffic on the mill creek railroads is massive, especially from the Queensgate Yard to the Ivorydale Junction.  Nearly non-stop mile-long trains on 3 tracks.  A fourth mainline is necessary before any commuter rail can happen, and it's $100 million just for the fourth track. 

 

Commuter rail between this 3-track yard throat and downtown needs to get around the massive CSX and NS yards, which are a combined 4 miles long.  Back in the early 80s a mile-long tunnel was proposed from the yard throat to CUT. 

 

 

 

A shame that the old CH&D/B&O alignment on the west side of Mill Creek can't be reactivated as easily.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/08/how-many-lanes-does-odot-plan-to-add.html

 

Looks like they are trying to compromise on the Red Bank portion of the corridor project.  I really don't think Red Bank Expressway needs to be widened, but as a resident of the area, I like the portions about connecting Duck Creek through to Madison, extending Old Red Bank, and the new bridges.  I'm wondering, what ever happened to the city renaming Red Bank and changing it to a boulevard, which was supposed to block the state from being able to turn it into a highway?

The key thing is to watch how much right-of-way width they take acquire.

 

Widened by one lane today, freeway tomorrow. That's how these things work. The line gets drawn on the map and is fattened over time.

They do say there will be "accommodations" for pedestrians and cyclists.... so a bike path?

 

Wouldn't be a bad idea to have a bike path in the area, probably would get a lot of use. And it would make sense to have some good bike/walking paths lead to the Eastern Corridor, otherwise what is the point of having light rail if you can't walk to it?

Taking bikes on the train would be a good idea so people can get past the station parking lots when traveling east from Cincinnati.

Sure it would. But a bike or pedestrian path today could easily become part of a widened roadway in the future.

 

I'm sure we'll live to see the day when the Red Bank Expressway -- note the current legal name -- becomes the key segment of an extended I-74 through Cincinnati to North Carolina. Look at a map of North Carolina today. They're building I-74 coming this way already.

 

This is how these things are put together. In bits and pieces, over time. Land is acquired here and there. Bypasses are constructed. Interchanges get built. And then one day the state and local highway marking signs come down, and the greeen IHS signs go up. That is what is happening here and across southern Ohio today.

^Makes sense, but if I remember correctly I-74 will utilize OH 32 from I-275 out through southern Ohio.

 

If Red Bank Expy. is factored into the new I-74, that would mean the highway would somehow have to pass right along the Little Miami River south of Mariemont, and tie into 32 east of Newtown. I could see how it could be done, but it seems politically impossible from an environmental perspective (can't imagine the EIS that proposal would have) and a social perspective with Mariemont due north.

 

Maybe the Eastern corridor rail is being pursued as an alternative to that.

Never underestimate the highway lobby's ability to get what it wants sooner or later. How many freeways, once planned, are never built?

Sure it would. But a bike or pedestrian path today could easily become part of a widened roadway in the future.

 

I'm sure we'll live to see the day when the Red Bank Expressway -- note the current legal name -- becomes the key segment of an extended I-74 through Cincinnati to North Carolina. Look at a map of North Carolina today. They're building I-74 coming this way already.

 

This is how these things are put together. In bits and pieces, over time. Land is acquired here and there. Bypasses are constructed. Interchanges get built. And then one day the state and local highway marking signs come down, and the greeen IHS signs go up. That is what is happening here and across southern Ohio today.

 

That's how these zombie road projects move ahead, a segment at a time, all coordinated by an unseen master plan led with an invisible hand, buried in the bowels of each state's DOT. All done with a wink and a nod.

People are driving less so of course the solution is to build more roads!

 

Genius.

There's several highways that were planned but never built, even here in Cincinnati (Queen City Expressway, Taft Expressway, Colerain Expressway).  Nevertheless, whether part of I-74 or not, ODOT seems hellbent on building a highway to connect Red Bank with Eastgate.  Whatever the form it takes, whether a 4-lane divided highway like US-52 along the Ohio River, a full blown interstate-standard highway like a lot of US-35, or nasty street/road hybrid (a stroad) ala Montgomery Road through Landen (which is what they want to turn the existing part of Red Bank Road into), there's no way the results will be good.  Mariemont is definitely fighting it, but Newtown is the place that will be hardest hit, as well as Madisonville which is also pretty organized in opposition. 

People are driving less so of course the solution is to build more roads!

 

Genius.

 

That's true in the case of motorists, not so true with respect to the trucking industry. I think the truck traffic on I-75 is expected to increase something like 2.5 times in the next 25 years.

The BizCourier article, and especially the map, seem to be answering questions I suspect no one has asked. 

 

Why are they considering upgrading Old Red Bank?  That road has been defunct for thirty-plus years, and Red Bank Expressway is far more direct.  And I can't see much clamor for it in Madisonville, since to use it as an alternative to RBE you'd have to cut through MedPace and make your way through that weird concept of an intersection at Erie/Brotherton/Murray/Old Red Bank.

 

I've also never understood the project's continued emphasis on connecting Hetzell and Babson.  I think this was in various iterations of the plan before MedPace was even a glimmer in Madisonville's eye.  Neither end of Babson or Hetzell is heavily populated, nor can anything on those roads realistically be considered a destination.  Stewart-Amanda-Hetzel-Babson is also far too circuitous to use as a bypass for the Madison/RB intersection.  And to connect those roads would require demolition of a couple of shopping centers and office buildings, the very type of development you're ostensibly trying to help access.

 

And connecting Duck Creek and MedPace way?  Really?  All you're doing there is giving I-71 traffic bound to/from MedPace a slightly faster way around the Madison/RB intersection.

 

I don't get it.  Does anyone see an angle on this I'm missing?

 

Really, the only thing I can think of is they want to ease access to/from Medpace.  That's the only explanation I can figure.  Or, as others have said, this is a tiny baby step toward making RBE a full-limited access highway.

 

^ You need to look at everything they are doing through the lens of "Is this consistent with a long-term plan to bring Interstate Highway 74 through the Red Bank corridor?"

 

 

Why are they considering upgrading Old Red Bank?  That road has been defunct for thirty-plus years, and Red Bank Expressway is far more direct.  And I can't see much clamor for it in Madisonville, since to use it as an alternative to RBE you'd have to cut through MedPace and make your way through that weird concept of an intersection at Erie/Brotherton/Murray/Old Red Bank.

 

Think about it. Red Bank Expressway becomes an access-controlled interstate highway. Old Red Bank Road becomes the new highway frontage road.

I don't get it.  Does anyone see an angle on this I'm missing?...  Or, as others have said, this is a tiny baby step toward making RBE a full-limited access highway.

 

 

You just answered your own question. This project has a very long term goal of being a part of I-74. Local considerations are not relevant since this is really just a roadbuilder cash cow. I thought it odd that "highways-uber-alles" ODOT would care one whit about the Eastern Corridor, but now I see it's just a stalking horse for I-74 and they will steer things in that direction. Oh, we may get a few trinkets thrown our way, but that's the real goal.

I grew up in Georgetown, Ohio and SR-32 is a big corridor through our county (Brown). I can remember when I was in high school in the late 1990s and all of the expansion was going on in Eastgate. Around this time all of us out in the boonies would hear people talking about how SR-32 was going to become an interstate and how great that would be. Just an a story I thought I'd share.

 

I thought it odd that "highways-uber-alles" ODOT would care one whit about the Eastern Corridor, but now I see it's just a stalking horse for I-74 and they will steer things in that direction. Oh, we may get a few trinkets thrown our way, but that's the real goal.

 

Assuming that's true, which I think it is, we should really push hard for the Oasis Line, regardless of how uneconomical it might be.  If they're going to force an interstate through there one way or another, then make them pay for the privilege by supplying a rail line for those that want it.