^I think Docta is right on... Zaremba needs to sell some more units at 1211 before they'll be in position to start more buildings.

 

I love that Zaremba put his money where his mouth is and moved forward with this project.  No risk, no reward!  However he's had some bad luck with his timing.  The real estate market is tough, the building is nearing completion and from what I can tell only 40% of the units sold.  With the way banks are recoiling from developer/contractor lending I'd have to believe Zaremba's feeling some pressure.  Just guessing, as I don't know how his loan is structured, but he's probably has an interest reserve setup until the building is complete.  Then the bank is going to be looking for repayment of principal whether all the units are sold or not.

 

Again, I hope Zaremba's way successful since he had the guts to move forward.  However the timer is ticking.

i'm not sure how this is any different from any other loans a developer would ever get prior to construction of anything? i mean sure the timer is always ticking on loans, this is no different. hellz bellz for one thing remember zaremba put up a major redevelopment in depressed lorain's harbor, so he's certainly not too worried about timing. he must have more loot or more loot access than we think. and yay for that!

 

i'm not sure how this is any different from any other loans a developer would ever get prior to construction of anything? i mean sure the timer is always ticking on loans, this is no different. hellz bellz for one thing remember zaremba put up a major redevelopment in depressed lorain's harbor, so he's certainly not too worried about timing. he must have more loot or more loot access than we think. and yay for that!

 

 

Fair point.  Zaremba may have a ton of loot.

 

I haven't seen the Lorain development so this may be way off base... but the way I'm thinking about 1211 is that the upfront cash flow necessary for this 10-story building and entire development parking deck are much more significant than the cash flow for a low, spread out townhouse development.  For E.13 to E.17 he could probably fund with a decent line of credit as he continually turns over eight townhouses vs. a midrise building coming on-line all at once.

Also keep in mind his land cost was practically zero, so all the money he borrowed for material and labor.  If I remember correctly the land was bought for a buck

i'm not sure how this is any different from any other loans a developer would ever get prior to construction of anything? i mean sure the timer is always ticking on loans, this is no different. hellz bellz for one thing remember zaremba put up a major redevelopment in depressed lorain's harbor, so he's certainly not too worried about timing. he must have more loot or more loot access than we think. and yay for that!

 

 

Fair point.  Zaremba may have a ton of loot.

 

I haven't seen the Lorain development so this may be way off base... but the way I'm thinking about 1211 is that the upfront cash flow necessary for this 10-story building and entire development parking deck are much more significant than the cash flow for a low, spread out townhouse development. 

 

the zaremba lorain haborwalk project was much more than just low-rise housing, it's redevelopment of a serious brownfield, the old amship yard in the black river harbor, where yankee boss george steinbrenner made his nut. it involved building infrastucture, boat docks, rennovation of historic amship buildings, roads, demolitions, etc. so it's serious urban infill & more complicated and expensive than a single apt building on a lot. how zaremba financed all that, given lorain has the 3rd worst housing market in ne ohio (just behind east cleveland & cleveland city, repectively) is a miracle in & of itself. the guy is sitting on some serious cash or high stakes re gambling investors. otoh -- harborwalk vs the whole buildout of the avenue? no.

 

Also keep in mind his land cost was practically zero, so all the money he borrowed for material and labor.  If I remember correctly the land was bought for a buck

 

Ave. Dist.:  The land was sold to the Developer at market rate.  The City of Cleveland can't sell land for less then an appraised value (city charter).  Banks require a pre-sale requirement of 40% (generally) for construction loan.  That percentage varies depending on a number of issues, not the least of which is market conditions. 

 

RE: Harborwalk - Zaremba joined forces with the Spitzer family and the City of Lorain.  Infrastructure is financed by Tax Increment Financing.  It's probably one of the most comprehensive examples of brownfield redevelopment in the State of Ohio. 

 

Oh, and I completely agree with Doc Broc., you should all stop by the sales center and talk to the good folks at Zaremba.  Perhaps you too can be the proud owner of a new loft or townhome in Downtown Cleveland. 

Ave. Dist.: The land was sold to the Developer at market rate. The City of Cleveland can't sell land for less then an appraised value (city charter). Banks require a pre-sale requirement of 40% (generally) for construction loan. That percentage varies depending on a number of issues, not the least of which is market conditions.

 

i thought it was sold for a dollar as well, which is one of the reasons the development went there as opposed to on a parking lot in the warehouse district (for example) which would have added a couple of million to the cost.

 

plus, the city has a land bank where they are selling properties for 1 to 100 dollars in some neighborhoods.  how does that work?

Ave. Dist.: The land was sold to the Developer at market rate. The City of Cleveland can't sell land for less then an appraised value (city charter). Banks require a pre-sale requirement of 40% (generally) for construction loan. That percentage varies depending on a number of issues, not the least of which is market conditions.

 

i thought it was sold for a dollar as well, which is one of the reasons the development went there as opposed to on a parking lot in the warehouse district (for example) which would have added a couple of million to the cost.

 

plus, the city has a land bank where they are selling properties for 1 to 100 dollars in some neighborhoods. how does that work?

 

I remember differently. I figured that the City was going to sell it cheaply, but I was surprised when I heard that it was in the million-dollar range.

 

Landbank--maybe the city can sell if for such a cheap amount because the value of the land combined with back taxes equals out to be about zero. ??

If only there was a web site that aggregated information about major Cleveland development projects so that we could look back later to see how they were put together...Ha!  The answer is in a PD article on page 2 of this very thread: assuming there were no further changes, Zaremba was to pay a total of $11.5MM in stages as he developed the sites.  Which is interesting, because my recollection was exactly the same as urbanlife's (and just like him, I thought this is what distinguished AD from Pesht).

 

As for the land bank: it is authorized by specific legislation - I'm guessing it allows the city to short circuit the normal property disposition process.

A few more informative coolcleveland.com videos for your viewing pleasure.....  Yeah, that's me in the first one.  Damn them for making me take off my sunglasses while looking into the sun!!!!

 

http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php?n=Main.Zaremba

 

 

An article in todays Crain's Cleveland Business, can someone post the full story?

 

In slump, Cleveland condos a (somewhat) bright spot

For-sale housing in downtown Cleveland is a sweet spot in a mostly sour residential market. Downtown condos and townhouses are continuing to sell, albeit slower than previously.

Haha, Mike in the second one is a close family friend.

An article in todays Crain's Cleveland Business, can someone post the full story?

 

In slump, Cleveland condos a (somewhat) bright spot

For-sale housing in downtown Cleveland is a sweet spot in a mostly sour residential market. Downtown condos and townhouses are continuing to sell, albeit slower than previously.

 

Sounds like good news.  By the way, jsz65, is the photo in your avatar your house?  If so, I love your house (and its adjacent twin).

An article in todays Crain's Cleveland Business, can someone post the full story?

 

In slump, Cleveland condos a (somewhat) bright spot

For-sale housing in downtown Cleveland is a sweet spot in a mostly sour residential market. Downtown condos and townhouses are continuing to sell, albeit slower than previously.

 

In slump, Cleveland condos a (somewhat) bright spot

 

  RELATED LINKS 

 

Water Street Condominiums

Stonebridge

The Avenue District

Pinnacle Condominiums

 

 

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

4:30 am, July 7, 2008

 

 

 

For-sale housing in downtown Cleveland is a sweet spot in a mostly sour residential market. Downtown condos and townhouses are continuing to sell, albeit slower than previously.

 

Moreover, rising gas prices are firing up interest in living near work, a potent mix amid Northeast Ohio's largest office market.

 

Robert Rains, a partner with John Carney in Landmark Management in downtown Cleveland, calls gas costs “the best marketer that we have. Over the last three months, traffic has gone up. What's changed? Gasoline is $4 a gallon.”

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

 

 

There was a second article today as well....

 

 

Cleveland in position for downtown living surge

Officials: 2K new units soon will be available

 

  RELATED LINKS 

 

Cleveland State University Center for Housing Research and Policy.

Living in Cleveland Center

Downtown Cleveland Alliance

 

 

 

By CHRISTINE GORDILLO

 

4:30 am, July 7, 2008

 

 

 

With thousands of new housing units under construction or in the pipeline, downtown Cleveland is well-positioned to benefit from a renewed interest in urban living despite the nearly decade-long trend of migration out of Cuyahoga County.

 

“The situation today is better than it’s ever been and more promising than ever before,” said Tom Bier, executive-in-residence at Cleveland State University’s Center for Housing Research and Policy.

 

More than 2,000 new housing units are set to come online in the next two to four years, according to the Downtown Cleveland Alliance.

 

More at http://crainscleveland.com/article/20080707/SUB1/278085207/1004/REALESTATE

 

Doc, they totally cut you off in that video.  What the hell?

 

:)

Eh, he was just doing his job. The interview was really guided, so I wasn't entirely pleased with it, but that's how the media rolls sometimes (sorry KJP).

yeah thats my pad. I've been living here (Ohio City) going on 5 years and love my place and the neighborhood.

No offense taken!

 

And you would have to be a hottie, Docbroc. Another one off the market... sigh    :angel:

Nice place jsz! And sorry KJP. I'm sure you could come to Case and stalk down some hot CivEs if you tried. I had a TA in undergrad who did her Ph.D. On something to do with train tracks :)

No stalk downs for this guy! Track down? OK sure. Semantics? Whatever. I suppose the TA got hitched to a locomotive engineer.

 

OK, sorry for taking this thread off-topic. Back to the A.D.

No stalk downs for this guy! Track down? OK sure. Semantics? Whatever.

 

Weren't you saying something about answering one's own questions, the other day? :)

 

Eh, he was just doing his job. The interview was really guided, so I wasn't entirely pleased with it, but that's how the media rolls sometimes (sorry KJP).

 

Well, yeah, but he could've edited the video a little better. :)

The coolcleveland.com videos are a straight shot all the way through - no editing done.  They warned us beforehand that they were going to keep rolling no matter what.  The Thomas guy asks the questions and holds the camera behind his head or wherever, hence why it's so shaky.

 

EDIT:  I also noticed that the Mike Caito video that wasn't working yesterday is now working.  He doesn't mention specific retailers, but he eludes to there being a "fabulous" restaurant, a coffee shop, a dry cleaners, a bakery, and possibly a wine shop in the 1211 building.  I guess we'll see!

Doc Broc is so cute....back on topic.

So now that you all know my name and where I live, NO STALKING :-P

Don't worry. Many people here know my name, where I work, and generally where I live, etc. But I don't think I've ever been stalked. Though I'll never be confused with Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp or George Clooney!

What the heck is a CivEs?

^Oh, oh, Civil Engineers (my guess)?  My better half is still at Cleveland State in their program. 

Yes, darn you non-Case people who don't know our lingo!

I'm sure you could come to Case and stalk down some hot CivEs if you tried.  I had a TA in undergrad who did her Ph.D. On something to do with train tracks :)

Doctabroccoli, that is amusing to me. Your CWRU CivE TA is a friend of mine :)  I believe she was researching foundation materials to reduce vibrations and noise on railways.  However, I would NOT recommend that men go to CWRU to find women.  Trust me on that one guys.  CSU on the other hand...

 

Moderators, sorry this is so far off topic of Ave. District, but guys need to to be warned about such misleading statements.  That particular TA is not the norm :wink:.  If you must go looking for women at CWRU, avoid the engineering school and try the nursing school :-o or college of business.

I'm sure you could come to Case and stalk down some hot CivEs if you tried.  I had a TA in undergrad who did her Ph.D. On something to do with train tracks :)

Doctabroccoli, that is amusing to me. Your CWRU CivE TA is a friend of mine :)  I believe she was researching foundation materials to reduce vibrations and noise on railways.  However, I would NOT recommend that men go to CWRU to find women.  Trust me on that one guys.  CSU on the other hand...

 

Moderators, sorry this is so far off topic of Ave. District, but guys need to to be warned about such misleading statements.  That particular TA is not the norm :wink:.  If you must go looking for women at CWRU, avoid the engineering school and try the nursing school :-o or college of business.

 

If you're apologizing, you knew it was wrong, so why did you do it anyway?

 

There's a handy little PM function for random chit chat like that.

Today was too nice to NOT snap a few pics:

 

 

 

love it.

LOVE the third picture :-D  I'm off to the Adirondacks for the weekend, then back for our closing next week!!!

Just wanted to give a shout out to all the Wachovia Securities empolyees from the Westlake office (although i doubt any of them read this, but whatever) who actually think positively about downtown Cleveland.  My dad works for Wachovia in St. Louis, and they had a bunch of employees from around the country fly in for some sort of training thing.  They had a dinner last night, and my dad (by some stroke of fate!) ended up being at a table that was all Westlake employees.  He was of course thrilled since he knows all about Cleveland from me going to school and living here, so they spent most of their time talking about The Avenue District.  I don't know how many of them new about it before last night, but they sure do now.  My dad said they all thought it sounded really great, and they couldn't stop gushing about how much fun we were going to have living downtown. 

 

Informing the Cleveland suburbs, one table of securities brokers at a time :-D

Ok, I don't know if I should keep this here or the FEB thread--either one might be ok...

 

There has been much discusssion about the generic, suburban-esque, uninspiring, etc. design of the FEB project.  I too think that a major draw to the project could have been/could be a very progressive, exciting design.  Something so compelling could provide a huge influx of partronage and investment in both projects.

 

 

Moving on to the Avenue District, what do some of you feel about the design of this project-how it relates to the rest of the neighborhood?  Surely, one cannot think that this design pushes the envelope or relates well to the downtown area or is worth the investment by Zaremba IF such mediocre renderings of the FEB warrant all of the criticism we've read on UO.

 

I have a hard time buying the idea of 3-flat townhomes a few blocks from 400 ft. towers... I think that portion of the project is a bit far-fetched.  Needless to say it appears everyone gets all warm and tingly inside when we see pics of this development.

 

Can we just give FEB a chance?  I really don't think that FEB will be of any lesser quality than AD (not that that's saying much but I've seen the worst in Brunswick Lake Town Center development!  BARF!).

 

We have to expect these projects to be only catalysts in downtown's/Cleveland's/NEO's renewal-not the climax of re-investment into downtown! 

Personally, in regards to the design of the Avenue District and the FEB, I think they're both "nice". Do I LIKE "nice"? Personally .. no. But again, that's just me. I'm not bashing the design, necessarily. I'm just one who likes things to be a bit more adventurous and interesting .. how can the envelope be pushed, etc. I'm not seeing this here.

 

I also think they look a LOT like other developments I've seen in other areas, including Cincinnati, Columbus and St Petersburg, FL to name a few. And the cookie-cutterness/lack of originality and creativity are disappointing to me. I'm not saying we need some crazy, spinning building. I think that would be weird and out of place. I just would have liked to see something more .. now. Rather than .. 5 years ago.

 

Now, I understand that they want to market this to people from the Cleveland area, who typically are a bit more conservative and don't really like "free-thinking" in terms of design. I think part of the problem is that people in Cleveland think it IS cutting-edge design. But, if people actually looked at architecture and design from around the world, it's far from it. Clevelanders like what they're comfortable with. And that's fine. But that's also, I think, why we get the designs we do.

 

I'm not saying that any of these designs are bad, per se. They're not. They're just .. uninteresting. Will the designs of any of these buildings be something that will stand out in anyone's mind years from now, once the excitement of the new development settles a bit? Not in my mind. And that disappoints me. Because I feel like both of these neighborhoods have the opportunity to create something truly stunning that will endure years from now .. not just 5 years from now.

 

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I really hope I haven't riled anyone up. I'm just speaking my own opinions on the matter, I guess.

 

Now, I understand that they want to market this to people from the Cleveland area, who typically are a bit more conservative and don't really like "free-thinking" in terms of design. I think part of the problem is that people in Cleveland think it IS cutting-edge design. But, if people actually looked at architecture and design from around the world, it's far from it. Clevelanders like what they're comfortable with. And that's fine. But that's also, I think, why we get the designs we do.

 

I disagree. I think that the high end market depends a more cutting edge design in Cleveland. We're not talking about mom and pop from Parma here.  If we built something cutting edge, I think you'd see a greater demand.

 

OK, now just wait until August when Zaremba and MRN release the designs for Uptown. You want cutting edge? You're gonna get it.

I have to ask, and this is my own person opinion, not to take the topic off topic, but how many folks here are qualified to judge the design, architecture and engineering of our developments?

 

We spend a lot of time complaining about sketches, renderings and markups, not the final product.

 

I'm certainly not qualified to critique the design, construction, etc of these projects, so who is?  If you are qualified, what would you do differently or what would you do to enhance the projects currently uncder construction and/or designed??

If we built something cutting edge, I think you'd see a greater demand.

 

I totally agree! earlier I mentioned how we may have seen more people jump on board-in all aspects of either project-if we kept the status-quo to a minimum.

 

I think part of the problem is that people in Cleveland think it IS cutting-edge design. But, if people actually looked at architecture and design from around the world, it's far from it. Clevelanders like what they're comfortable with. And that's fine. But that's also, I think, why we get the designs we do.

 

Now I don't know what kind of can of worms I'm going to open but we've had very little new construction  in the CBD in the past decade plus.  Sure, we've seen our fair share of rehab in the WHD/E4 and now Prospect/Huron but there has been little opportunity to really flex our muscles when it comes to enlightening the masses as far as what architecture can be.  That's what's so exciting about the University Circle area.  Starchitects may be the easy way out--even seen as selling out to the local community, but we need it.  Fresh blood is good every now and then to keep the locals on their toes. 

 

Again, even the AD must be looked at as a foundation for futher development in the area.  The safe, traditional approach is one way to go about development, right? 

 

I can't wait until August!  Cutting edge?!  The last cutting edge thing built here was Gateway!

I am qualified to critique the construction techniques used in the AD, but not the architecture.  Construction wise, it is above par.  Reinforced, post-tensioned concrete was used which is much more sound efficient and structurally better than structural steel.  I know they also emplyed quality control technicians to test the concrete and soil surrounding the building, so that is a plus.  Also, they went with a seasoned contractor (Panzica) to build it...which is also good.  Bottom line is, they treated the construction process for the AD as though it is a world class building and not some generic infill which I am all for. 

MTS, personally it's frustration with settling with the familar-a generic and safe approach to developing.  Maybe that's why they have the $$$ in the first place...

I think you both have good points.  But maybe its just as well Zaremba/the developers that are rather conservative as well.  I think Zaremba thinks it is something Cleveland hasnt seen, and although many cities have seen very similar style buildings built, (I know there a ton of similar ones build in DC the past few years) Cleveland hasnt so much.  I think the loft buildings are rather attractive, but again certainly not groundbreaking. 

 

I too didnt really think the townhomes were that great a fit for where they were building them, but yet they seem to be selling the best. 

 

The excitement may be as well that these are going up, in an area that people might have assumed would be surface lots forever, and yet a good location, maybe not as prime, unique or exciting as the East Bank.

 

So, I think people are going to be more "touchy" or critical about what they are going to do on the East Bank, in part due to what it was in addition to its prime and unique location.     

   

..how many folks here are qualified to judge the design, architecture and engineering of our developments?

 

We spend a lot of time complaining about sketches, renderings and markups, not the final product.

 

I'm certainly not qualified to critique the design, construction, etc of these projects, so who is?  If you are qualified, what would you do differently or what would you do to enhance the projects currently uncder construction and/or designed??

 

So we should just be okay with bland design, then?

 

I don't understand what's wrong with critiquing design. I personally am a designer, and so design is something I'm naturally passionate about. A lack of criticism only leads to mediocre design. While I'm not versed in architecture, necessarily, I still think my opinions are valid, as are anyone else's who does/doesn't like a particular design. I fully respect people who enjoy a particular vein of design, and if the majority of people like it, then who am I to fight against it?

 

Which is why I've refrained from that, for the most part. The question was asked, so I answered it according to my own opinion. As I've said many times before, my opinions are just as valid as anyone else's.

I think Zaremba thinks it is something Cleveland hasnt seen, and although many cities have seen very similar style buildings built, (I know there a ton of similar ones build in DC the past few years) Cleveland hasnt so much.

 

That's the scary thing-we can't keep nurturing this sheltered, 5 years too late outlook on what a city should be or on what a building can be. 

 

I really didn't intend to attack the AD design--I just wanted to know why it appeared that a lot of people are quick to attack the FEB renderings yet show little negative criticism towards the AD?  Once we see some steel at the FEB sites maybe we'll all move on...

I, for one, don't think it's bland.

 

I would love to see designs, sketches, rendering and markups of a building that those here who don't like this building would build.

 

Put your money where your mouth is! 

 

We all have varied opinions, and yes critiquing, reviewing and setting higher design and construstion standards improves final product, but it's not our money and other than Doc Broc, who HERE has purchased in the building?  In addition, what does the home you currently live in look like?  :?  Is it an architectural masterpiece?   I'm not saying any of this to be mean, but asking those to look at both sides of the situation.

 

I would like to believe that those purchasing had the same questions we've seen here. 

 

Can we wait until the project is done before condemning them?  This conversation is no better than the naysayers that would ask, "why would someone buy downtown, it's dangerous."

I personally think that "uninspiring" or whatever you call it architectural design is almost required at this point in time.  Cleveland can't just create downtown residents - people have to locate from somewhere else (either the suburbs or other parts of the city).  Part of getting people to move downtown is showing them that they can have something remotely similar to what they had elsewhere but in a place where they can take advantage of the surroundings.  It's all part of the gentrification process....

There's no doubt it's "safe", and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.  In it's defense I'll also say, it is tough to judge until all phases of that block are built out, as they all have different materials and will impact greatly the way the block looks.  That being said, I agree with gotribe, right now I'm most pleased that this looks to be a really quality construciton project.  And there's something to be said with that.  Is it a little bland? Yes, but it's also nice.  Also, don't forget the target market of this project.  There aren't too many young edgy people looking to spend 500+k on a condo right now in this city.  This particular portion of the development is mostly intended to lure empty nesting baby boomers back into downtown.  And my guess is an awful large percentage of that population thinks this is a beautiful building.

 

Remember.  Architecture is no different from art, music, and even food.  What's really exciting to one person, could be horrifying to another.  That's the beauty of it, there really is no right or wrong and everyone is entitled to their own valid opinion based on their tastes.  I think going "safe" is a very nice building block for where we're at right now in terms of downtown development.  There will be plenty of opportunities for pushing the envelope in the future.  Personally I'm most pleased with this project on: The quality of the development, it's sense of scale relating to it's surroundings, and solid urban planning principles... i mean what's the last building we had put up in this town that was truly built out to the street like this, hides parking underground AND in the middle of the block, hell they even got the city to alter that horrid 9 lane road with concrete bunkers to be pedestrian friendly... and all this on top of a surface lot.  That's a lot to like.

i meant what's the last building we had put up in this town that was truly built out to the street like this, hides parking underground AND in the middle of the block, hell they even got the city to alter that horrid 9 lane road with concrete bunkers to be pedestrian friendly... and all this on top of a surface lot.  That's a lot to like.

 

And that's the point I've been trying to make.  Look at everything going into the FEB and look at what is today.  Why are we flipping out about a few renderings.  I am not condemning the AD but I refuse to let this slide by when the FEB is being attacked for being generic as not one thing has been built.

 

Ok, going back to putting my money where my mouth is...

 

Well as a recent college grad with 20 years of student loans to pay off, working as an architect nonetheless,  all I can do is rent right now and and hope to buy some cool things at CB2.  Until I can put a down payment down on some property, I guess I'll just keep my mouth shut.  I obviously haven't earned my stripes yet. 

 

Doctabroccoli, I am extremely happy for you and your new purchase!!! This city needs people like you who are willing to invest not only in their lives, but in the life of Cleveland too.