June 1, 20178 yr ^ True. The development should be more vertical. But the road still needs to be redesigned. None of the Downtown Avenues need to be as wide as they are.
June 1, 20178 yr ^ True. The development should be more vertical. But the road still needs to be redesigned. None of the Downtown Avenues need to be as wide as they are. I agree with you. And Superior in particular is probably more apt than any other to be converted to a "complete street."
June 1, 20178 yr Anything on a major downtown Avenue should be pedestrian oriented mixed use, and should better utilize its acreage. This proposal could be for downtown Cleveland or for Gahanna, there's no way to tell just from looking at it and that's shameful. Design Review should laugh at it and move on. The time for competence is now.
June 1, 20178 yr I'm actually fine with this. The location is kind of a dog, so I'm just happy to see more population density that can benefit the rest of downtown. Townhouses are a unit type the seems to do pretty well in Cleveland. If we want to see more people and fewer empty lots, we should probably be rooting for a lot more development like this north and east of this project to build some critical mass.
June 1, 20178 yr ^Agree. Build the townhouses along Lindazzo but leave Superior frontage to multifamily, mixed use. Its a no-brainer, we cant be so short sighted. Superior does need to be redone as well.
June 1, 20178 yr Not all mass is equally critical. We should never think ourselves so desperate that bad ideas become good. North and east of this is practically the lakefront and we should be rooting for towers there, not suburban townhouses.
June 1, 20178 yr These are for sale!!! That's good to hear. When these were announced a couple years ago the plan was for rental. The design of these and the "Milton" rentals next door are so disappointing. And the work being done by Horton Harper in Tremont makes these look that much worse.
June 1, 20178 yr Not all mass is equally critical. We should never think ourselves so desperate that bad ideas become good. North and east of this is practically the lakefront and we should be rooting for towers there, not suburban townhouses. There is more than sufficient property nearby to satisfy that need... should it ever come... which currently does not seem likely. If these are a hit, this could result in a nice little "pop-up" neighborhood a stones throw from downtown. The only down side is that most of the zoning over there is light-industrial - autobody shops, supply warehouses and the like.
June 1, 20178 yr Here's the original siteplan from 2005, courtesy of Clevelandskyscrapers.com. Looks like we're still on Site 1 over 10 years later due to the recession and housing crisis. I think we'll have plenty of space to build higher throughout downtown.
June 1, 20178 yr So we should say no to this development until the market demands a more vertical approach?
June 1, 20178 yr I think the site you're talking about in Pittsburgh is across 579 from downtown, something more akin to East 30th here. Avenue District is East 13th. To your point about demand, what if good planning increases demand and bad planning impairs it? Don't look at me like I'm proposing cold fusion. We can't keep blaming our own bad decisions on Pittsburgh having hills. That's an absurd excuse and it needs to go away. Indy and Detroit are both flat as pancakes and nobody is forcing them to build suburbs downtown. The edge of the Civic Center site is less than 600 feet from Pittsburgh's tallest skyscraper. Land use investments are based on what the real estate market, timing, planning and the topography give you. Great plans don't suddenly create strong demand and high rents. Development of a market over an extended period of time does. And sure, those can be the result of great plans when combined with organic market evolution. But if the timing isn't right, a plan is nothing more than a piece of paper or, worse, an empty, pretty building. Detroit and Indianapolis both have single family townhouses along their main thoroughfares next to downtown. Believe me, I'd love to see something more vertical on this parcel. But it's been a dusty/muddy parking lot for decades. The demand for building anything in downtown Cleveland has been so soft for so long that I can think of only seven buildings seven stories or taller were built in the last three decades. And three of those were administered and funded entirely by government (US Courthouse, Convention hotel, County administration building) and two were extensively subsidized by government (Ernst & Young tower, Aloft Cleveland hotel). CSU/Edge apartments and one other building I've forgotten in multiple trips to the living room to care for my sick son while writing this post are the only ones that were primarily market driven. Two -- in nearly 30 years. You take what the market gives you. Otherwise you're building empty, pretty buildings. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 2, 20178 yr I appreciate all the financing/developer concerns and market aspects to these projects.But Is it possible that there is in fact higher demand for more mixed use, multifamily and these demands are not being met in our city? These will be townhouses along Superior because of a decade old master plan, or because that is what the developer is comfortable with? I'm not saying these townhouses wont sell, I think they will (although I would never buy a townhouse on superior) but who decided this area cant bare denser development. I'm really not trying to be a pain, just trying to understand the dynamics to this better. Most people on here seem to be at the understanding this is all the market can handle and i'm inquisitive as to how that was determined.
June 2, 20178 yr ^My gut (and this is pure speculation on my part) is that the type of development you describe and desire is in demand in town and many developers understand this and would like to implement such projects. I think the nut has been, and will be, trying to convince those with the money who are either uninformed, don't have the expertise or are worried about their jobs in what is basically these day a conservative lending environment, especially in northeast Ohio with a stagnant population.
June 2, 20178 yr Developers don't like to beat their heads against a wall (aka ignorant/skeptical/conservative lenders). They exist to make money and the only way they can do that is to build stuff (and sell it). Developers can't make money repeatedly presenting pretty pictures to unwilling lenders. They may want to do something different, but what you want isn't relevant. It's what you can get. Get what you can get when you can get it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 2, 20178 yr Market demand isn't the only reason we get (or don't get) vertical, mixed use development. We are usually at the mercy of the developer's ability to get financing, CDC pressure, developer preference, master plans, etc. Not all of those are a function of a demand.
June 2, 20178 yr I am happy to see Masthead surviving nearby, I just hope those few blocks have a very different feel a couple years from now.
June 2, 20178 yr ^Speaking of breweries, I had no idea until the other day that another brewery had popped up in that same general area, Noble Beast Brewing Co. http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2017/01/noble_beast_brewing_co_looks_t.html
June 3, 20178 yr ^Speaking of breweries, I had no idea until the other day that another brewery had popped up in that same general area, Noble Beast Brewing Co. http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2017/01/noble_beast_brewing_co_looks_t.html Agreed. Thought they were one in the same.
June 21, 20177 yr Erieview Tower owner seeks landmark nomination for 40-floor building June 21, 2017 By STAN BULLARD Downtown Cleveland's fourth-tallest office building, Erieview Tower, is up for a nomination to the National Register of Historic Places, a move that may help with securing federal historic preservation and other tax credits for redoing the 37% empty office building. Historic, really? The 40-story structure dates from 1964 so it qualifies in terms of age for the register, as it's well past 50. A first step in that landmark process is scheduled for Friday, June 23, when the Ohio Historic Site Preservation Advisory Board meets at 10 a.m. at the Ohio History Center in Columbus. If the board approves the move, the state's Historic Preservation Office at the Ohio History Connection may submit it to the U.S. Department of the Interior for final consideration. ...Even though the script for remaking it as a mixed-use of the building seems to be in place by converting a third of the tower to residential, the 834,000-square-foot property is held by a public company engaged in selling other vast holdings to trim overhead and debt and drop a role as a building owner. MORE: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170621/NEWS/170629957/erieview-tower-owner-seeks-landmark-nomination-for-40-floor-building "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 23, 20177 yr I drove past the Avenue District Tower the other day, Does anyone know if this unit is fully rented? Are we ever going to see a phase 2.
June 26, 20177 yr Ohio board recommends downtown #CLE's Tower at Erieview for National Register of Historic Places. #CRE https://t.co/c10DSKd0wu "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 26, 20177 yr I heard that Zaremba is planning approximately 40 for sale townhomes at the 15th and Superior. Anyone know when they are breaking ground?
July 10, 20177 yr Tech could be focus of Zeppelin development near Playhouse Square http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2017/07/tech_could_be_focus_of_zeppeli.html#incart_2box_business
July 10, 20177 yr Tech could be focus of Zeppelin development near Playhouse Square http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2017/07/tech_could_be_focus_of_zeppeli.html#incart_2box_business Doesn't this belong in the general Playhouse Square developments thread? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 11, 20177 yr Tech could be focus of Zeppelin development near Playhouse Square http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2017/07/tech_could_be_focus_of_zeppeli.html#incart_2box_business Sweet plan. Hope to see it happen.
September 20, 20177 yr Joshua Jones @Josh_CLE 14h14 hours ago Construction and permit have appeared for Suzy's Soup coming to a vacant storefront on the E. 12th St. side of Reserve Square – at Reserve Square Apartments "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 16, 20177 yr November 16, 2017 1:14 pm UPDATED 3 HOURS AGO Avenue District Townhomes to rise again By STAN BULLARD For-sale townhomes are back on the table for Downtown Cleveland's Avenue District. Zaremba Inc. of Cleveland in the last couple years had pursued an apartment plan for sites left fallow at the low-rise, for-sale Avenue District Townhomes since the housing bust brought action to a halt. However, the company again is seeking advance sales for the three-story townhouses at Superior Avenue and East 13th Street. MORE: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20171116/news/142526/avenue-district-townhomes-rise-again "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 17, 20177 yr Is there any speculation about seeing more work done with the original plan (site one or site two)? I would love to see the St. Clair site one building actually completed as first envisioned.
December 18, 20177 yr Zaremba brothers revive plans for Avenue District townhouses their father envisioned (photos) http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/12/zaremba_brothers_revive_plans.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 18, 20177 yr Zaremba brothers revive plans for Avenue District townhouses their father envisioned (photos) http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/12/zaremba_brothers_revive_plans.html Blast from the past... love seeing this happen, I was so excited for this "district" when it was first announced.
December 18, 20177 yr this is great news. they mentioned that immediately they have presales of 4 of the first 36 to be built. i bet it will do fine. more of the ownership option is a tough build, but a crucial part of mix for downtown.
December 18, 20177 yr I wish that the condo tower was completed as originally planned. I assume that the Zaremba Bros do not have control of the Tower Ownership.
December 22, 20177 yr Yes, I had high hopes, too, and used to work across the street. Of course that was before many other projects around downtown began and most were very successful. Even the tower has only one commercial tenant, as far as I know. There were supposed to be components all along East 12th, and the beautiful streetscape plan - with flowers, benches, and special paving - gets little traffic even on good-weather days. Then the Gallery isn't drawing many either - nothing like it was in the '80s and '90s. Is the new construction supposed to be facing Superior? I see the parking lot has been gone for a while.
December 22, 20177 yr Heard a rumor of a major investment bank opening a 50-75 person office in Cleveland in 9-12 District to finance Cleveland's emerging biotech industry. If there is truth to this, that could be great for the Avenue's development.
February 6, 20187 yr Sorry if this doesn't belong. Wasn't sure where to put it? Looks like at LONG LAST the Lincoln Building is going to get a renovation. Its not as dramatic as I was hoping but ANYTHING is better than the current state of that eye-sore. The Westin staff must be thrilled. More photos on the Landmark Commission agenda.
February 7, 20187 yr Looks like ground floor retail, which is great. There was talk of removing a substantial portion of it. I'd be happy to see that fake florist from Fast and Furious on that corner spot. That stupid fencing pretty much telegraphs yet another bar.
February 21, 20187 yr Looks like Dimit will be involved with the yet to be announced Erieview Tower residential conversion according to their blog. http://www.dimitarchitects.com/recently-added-erieview-tower/
February 21, 20187 yr Looks like Dimit will be involved with the yet to be announced Erieview Tower residential conversion according to their blog. http://www.dimitarchitects.com/recently-added-erieview-tower/ Wow! I didn't realize the windows at Erieview were floor to ceiling. Very impressive.
February 21, 20187 yr ^The whole of Erieview will be converted to residential? I pray that's not true
February 21, 20187 yr ^The whole of Erieview will be converted to residential? I pray that's not true Top 12 floors only.
February 21, 20187 yr This is the view from the 19th floor, halfway up Erieview Tower "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 20187 yr Did RAIT ever sell Erieview tower? The last story I remember reading was them pausing the residential conversion, and putting the complex up for sale. I wonder if Dimit is working with new owners or if this is part of RAIT's diligence a couple years ago.
February 21, 20187 yr Yes, there is a new owner. They have some plans for the Galleria, too. They want to try to draw some new retailers or other tenants, and possibly even build a hotel upwards out of a section of it- not a skyscraper, just a few stories.
February 21, 20187 yr Very interesting. The Galleria is in desperate need of a complete renovation. I think there is a lot of potential here especially with so many workers in this area.
February 22, 20187 yr Yes, there is a new owner. They have some plans for the Galleria, too. They want to try to draw some new retailers or other tenants, and possibly even build a hotel upwards out of a section of it- not a skyscraper, just a few stories. Nice. Best news I heard all day. Surprised there hasn't been an article in Crains or PD yet (or maybe I missed it).
March 4, 20187 yr Yes, there is a new owner. They have some plans for the Galleria, too. They want to try to draw some new retailers or other tenants, and possibly even build a hotel upwards out of a section of it- not a skyscraper, just a few stories. Nice. Best news I heard all day. Surprised there hasn't been an article in Crains or PD yet (or maybe I missed it). There is some conflicting info out there. In an article about Boyd Patterson moving to Erieview Tower, Bullard said the building is still up for sale. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180304/news/153696/tower-erieview-lands-money-manager Tower at Erieview lands money manager ... Fox said building owner RAIT Financial Trust of Philadelphia was excited to gain the financial firm as a new tenant because "it's a significant deal." The transaction also proceeded despite a deal-stopper for many office leases: The Tower at Erieview is for sale. RAIT is narrowing its focus to lending and shedding its property holdings. RAIT even had pursued plans to convert about one-third of the office tower to residential rentals before its corporate change in course. Gevry said his firm was assured the terms are such that the next owner must satisfy them. "We did not want to lose nine months waiting for a new owner," he said.
November 30, 20186 yr On 12/18/2017 at 10:26 AM, KJP said: Zaremba brothers revive plans for Avenue District townhouses their father envisioned (photos) http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/12/zaremba_brothers_revive_plans.html Any updates on this project. The report on downtown housing and it's mention of the complete lack of home ownership and town homes offered downtown made me think of this.
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