https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/key-downtown-cleveland-sale-site-changes-hands

^ Here's a snippet from the article:

 

Quote

Key downtown Cleveland for-sale site changes hands
STAN BULLARD

 

Knez Homes said it has prospective buyers for 10 of the 12 townhouse units above that it plans to construct in the Avenue District in downtown Cleveland.

A site for a long-planned for-sale housing development in downtown Cleveland has changed hands as Zaremba Homes has sold remaining acreage at the townhouse phase of Avenue District to another builder in a $1.88 million transaction.

 

The new owner of the parcels is B.R. Knez Homes, a Concord Township-based homebuilder, which is ready to roll on 12 townhouses on part of the site.

 

For his part, Knez said his company's first move downtown will be at the northeast corner of Superior Avenue and East 12th Street, where Zaremba secured city approvals to build. Some of the 10 prospective buyers, Knez said, were found by his firm whiled others were inherited from Zaremba.
...

Plans for 24 townhouses on the larger of the two parcels, on Superior between East 14th and East 15th streets, will need to be changed and go through the city planning office because of changes in the city's zoning code. The new layout will arrange townhouses in buildings of three or four units as opposed to the current, bigger buildings.

 

"We'll use the same vernacular for the design, but this will meet the current zoning code," Knez said. "It will make the project easier to construct. That will also provide more glazing on the end units." Prices for that phase have not been determined, he said.

 

Edited January 16, 20196 yr by Mendo

Whoa, that's a rough intersection.  Interested to see how this develops.

Be prepared for uninspired, terribly designed townhomes.

13 hours ago, w28th said:

Be prepared for uninspired, terribly designed townhomes.

 

Oh yeah. This was the rendering in the article. At least it looks better than the Zimmerman apartments??

 

 

I wish the corner townhouses could be 4 or 5 stories. 

Quote

northeast corner of Superior Avenue and East 12th Street

 

They meant 13th and Superior, right?

At least a planter box or two would be really nice.  The first 3 feet are just a wall of concrete.

what's the deal with CLE developers building half million dollar townhomes across the street from public housing?  It's a rather disturbing trend IMO.  

Why is it disturbing? My impression is that mixed income neighborhoods perform better in socio-economic terms than income-segregated neighborhoods.

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 My impression is that mixed income neighborhoods perform better in socio-economic terms than income-segregated neighborhoods.

 

That certainly has been the case in Wash DC. "Projects" that segregate large pockets of poor people are last century's history here. Single buildings and portions of buildings or developments are the rule lately.

2 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

They meant 13th and Superior, right?

 

I thought the same thing — they must have. The Citizens Bank HQ building is at the NE corner of E 12th and Superior, while the NE corner of E13th is a parking lot. ?

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Why is it disturbing? My impression is that mixed income neighborhoods perform better in socio-economic terms than income-segregated neighborhoods.

 

hmm...well that's good news.  It's always felt a bit off to me though I never did much research into how it performs over time.  

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Why is it disturbing? My impression is that mixed income neighborhoods perform better in socio-economic terms than income-segregated neighborhoods.

 

Not being argumentative at all... but can you point me to something that supports that? 

2 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

That certainly has been the case in Wash DC. "Projects" that segregate large pockets of poor people are last century's history here. Single buildings and portions of buildings or developments are the rule lately.

Many cities are eliminating ''projects'' that segregate large pockets of poor people.  Residents are scattered throughout a city/county, mixed into a neighborhood/suburb.  Chicago is a great example.

 

The ''project'' in issue is not all that large at E 13/Superior.  I believe its for senior citizens which is most likely why we don't hear much about this ''project'' being a hot spot of trouble, crime, or other negative issues associated with ''projects''.

Edited January 18, 20196 yr by Oxford19

@YABO713 I was going to be flippant and point you to the East Side of Cleveland to reveal how economic segregation creates conditions of hyperpoverty that weakens the entire region.

 

But I started a new thread so we can keep this one on topic.....

 

 

Not much detail....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2019/02152019/index.php#myGallery

 

DF2019-011 - The Avenue Townhomes - Knez Phase 2: Seeking Conceptual Design Approval
Project Location: Superior Avenue between East 14th and East 15th Streets
Project Representative: Hannah Cohan Plessner, B.R. Knez Construction

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man, wish there was some sort of first floor retail in the design since it fronts Superior.  

 

This would raise the value of the other properties too by increasing walkability and amenties. 

I doubt there's much demand for retail around there. Just look the ground floors of all the nearby buildings.

28 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

I doubt there's much demand for retail around there. Just look the ground floors of all the nearby buildings.

 

As the residential aspect increases, so will the demand for retail and nearby amenities.  Which is why this project could've invigorated the neighborhood with the addition of retail.

32 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

I doubt there's much demand for retail around there. Just look the ground floors of all the nearby buildings.

 

1 minute ago, superior said:

 

As the residential aspect increases, so will the demand for retail and nearby amenities.  Which is why this project could've invigorated the neighborhood with the addition of retail.

 

^Agreed.  No other time than the present to build the foundation of walkable streetscape / urban fabric...especially with the project sitting along the main road of Superior.  Past sins hurt, but there's a trending upward demand to want to live and play in the area...and there's a chance to foster that desire.  Building even another extension of essentially brick wall will be a nail in to the coffin for the area for the next 50 years.

 

Masthead Brewery alone is magnet / cornerstone in the neighborhood that can be extended.

^^Would you invest tens of thousands of dollars of your own money to open a retail establishment in that neighborhood now or even in the future?  Having owned a retail establishment in the past and knowing the in and outs I certainly would not.

Edited February 13, 20196 yr by Htsguy

There's plenty of space around for retail in existing storefronts all around Superior.  This would be a net positive for downtown with more for-sale units, which I'm assuming this will be.  

The retail space on the ground floor of the Avenue District condo/apartment building at St. Clair and East 12th has been on the market ever since the building opened more than a decade ago. Nothing has ever occupied it. So why should they build more retail space they can't fill??

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1211-Saint-Clair-Ave-NE-Cleveland-OH/12049072/

Edited February 13, 20196 yr by KJP

I feel that the townhomes along Superior are bit out of scale for how wide the avenue is.  It's not a huge deal just an observation.  This could be fixed with a street diet which is much needed along the Downtown avenues in general. 

Isn't the bike midway coming through in the not-too-distant future?

2 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

Isn't the bike midway coming through in the not-too-distant future?

I'm not sure TBH. I won't hold my breath. 

Yea, the issue with moving towards residential in the superior area is overcoming the extremely present feeling of industrialization.  It just doesn't feel "homey" enough IMO.  The shear scale of the avenue needs to be reduced to a more neighborhoody feeling.

5 minutes ago, tklg said:

Yea, the issue with moving towards residential in the superior area is overcoming the extremely present feeling of industrialization.  It just doesn't feel "homey" enough IMO.  The shear scale of the avenue needs to be reduced to a more neighborhoody feeling.

I think the industrial adds a cool vibe to the area. Improving the scale of Superior will do wonders. I'd also like to see some streetscape improvement along with a road diet.  Maybe different public art to establish different identities in the CBD core, arts/avenue district, and Asia town and beyond. 

IF they were well-built, substantial and to scale, I think we could all find them homey -- despite Superior's breadth.   I'm not holding my breath.

 

I'm pleased they at least moved the garage access to Lindazzo Ave. instead of Superior. I assume the original plans were for the townhouses to face each other and form a nice little alleyway on Lindazzo but it totally ignored the larger context of the surrounding streetscape. I wish we could rotate the existing ones to face outward as well.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

The retail space on the ground floor of the Avenue District condo/apartment building at St. Clair and East 12th has been on the market ever since the building opened more than a decade ago. Nothing has ever occupied it. So why should they build more retail space they can't fill??

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1211-Saint-Clair-Ave-NE-Cleveland-OH/12049072/

 

They're not even trying to fill it, they're trying to offload it for $1.3 million as a retail condo.  Without a tenant. 

 

"We have zero desire to manage this... it's not worth the effort... but perhaps you feel differently.  The Avenue District."

They only tried to lease if for a decade first.  But seriously, we have this exact same stupid conversation every time there is any news on this project.

I know that this area seems to be right Downtown but it might as well be 1,000 miles away from East 9th Street.  As the residential base builds there will be retail opportunities in the area. 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

The retail space on the ground floor of the Avenue District condo/apartment building at St. Clair and East 12th has been on the market ever since the building opened more than a decade ago. Nothing has ever occupied it. So why should they build more retail space they can't fill??

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1211-Saint-Clair-Ave-NE-Cleveland-OH/12049072/

 

This is apples to oranges IMO.  That spot is completely isolated.

 

Phase I of Knez literally butts up against a city block with storefronts that already include a brewery and a bank....two very solid anchors for walkability and amenities

 

GOOGLE STREETVIEW:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5040407,-81.6851558,3a,75y,252.46h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgIPuYGbKIt7oDsIPxRhSSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

 

 

I personally would be fine with a compromise with something similar to the Langston where some of Chester frontage incorporates retail development, but not all / most.  GOOGLE STREETVIEW:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5039427,-81.6742914,3a,75y,60.11h,97.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scF9_x8ZlK3ApjpqFxaibtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I know Cleveland isn't a Portland or a Pittsburgh, but it often feels like short term visions when rebuilding our urban fabric new.

 

Edited February 13, 20196 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

5 minutes ago, X said:

They only tried to lease if for a decade first.  But seriously, we have this exact same stupid conversation every time there is any news on this project.

 

What if it's not stupid?  As you point out, people seem to think it's worth discussing.  I feel dangerously off-topic so that's it for me.

Here's the view this afternoon looking east from the 26th floor of 1111 Superior (former Eaton Building) ...

 

I see it both ways. I do,  however  think this is a pretty crucial pivot point right here though, for downtown. It's Not a huge area being considered... but in context its a full block in a very important place. idk. ugh. Fine.  I say the scale and no retail is a huge miss. I'm sticking with that.  

I remember seeing somewhere pics of some of the standing structures along Euclid Ave. which were demolished for CSU; weren't there stretches of 2-3 story apartments without storefronts there?  I've been trying to find them, but can't locate any.

 

Point being it's ok for this small section of Superior to be only apartments/condos.  There's plenty of storefronts along Superior to fill in.

2 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I remember seeing somewhere pics of some of the standing structures along Euclid Ave. which were demolished for CSU; weren't there stretches of 2-3 story apartments without storefronts there?  I've been trying to find them, but can't locate any.

 

Point being it's ok for this small section of Superior to be only apartments/condos.  There's plenty of storefronts along Superior to fill in.

 

I think those where on Payne. Maybe starting at the now gone point of Sup/Payne 

17 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

Man, wish there was some sort of first floor retail in the design since it fronts Superior.  

 

This would raise the value of the other properties too by increasing walkability and amenties. 

It's a townhouse project though.  How would they work retail into the design?  Why would they want to?

9 minutes ago, viscomi said:

I see it both ways. I do,  however  think this is a pretty crucial pivot point right here though, for downtown. It's Not a huge area being considered... but in context its a full block in a very important place. idk. ugh. Fine.  I say the scale and no retail is a huge miss. I'm sticking with that.  

 

I respectfully disagree, I think no retail will force this development to integrate more fully into downtown, as opposed to trying to make its own enclave. 

Just now, Paul in Cleveland said:

Here's the view this afternoon looking east from the 26th floor of 1111 Superior (former Eaton Building) ...

 

The potential all the way out to E 55th Street...certainly to the Innerbelt at least initially.  Tons of potential business (jobs) and residential development.  Makes sense though given that development is heading north of Playhouse Square.

Edited February 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19

1 hour ago, Paul in Cleveland said:

Here's the view this afternoon looking east from the 26th floor of 1111 Superior (former Eaton Building) ...

 

 

The scale is what gets me. This view is from a 28-story building. To the right is Bohn Tower, a 22-story building. And I know that two 23-story residential buildings are just out of view to the right with a 40-story building just out of view to the left. So, in other words, this view is from a cliff, not a staircase.

I used to work on the 30th floor of One Cleveland Center and the view out that side was always so odd, it literally just drops off. It’s like downtown just ends, most people wouldn’t venture east from here that work in the area except the rare trip to Barristers etc. There’s so much work that needs to be done to bring the scale into what it should be... and this piecemeal Avenue development doesn’t seem to be doing it. I wonder if there’s any possibility of completing the other section of the Avenue tower. 

That's the Erieview urban renewal from the 60's at work.  They demolished a mid-rise neighborhood and replace half of it with high rises, and half with parking lots.  I suspect that as the last few historic renovations are completed, this area will be prime for new construction, but that's still a few years off.

10 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

I used to work on the 30th floor of One Cleveland Center and the view out that side was always so odd, it literally just drops off. It’s like downtown just ends, most people wouldn’t venture east from here that work in the area except the rare trip to Barristers etc. There’s so much work that needs to be done to bring the scale into what it should be... and this piecemeal Avenue development doesn’t seem to be doing it. I wonder if there’s any possibility of completing the other section of the Avenue tower. 

It was a ''no man's land'' and is downtown.

 

This area will eventually be an integrated part of downtown that people will work and live.  The Knez townhomes project isn't designed to bring this area into scale.  It's a piecemeal project yet is only one component of development in this area with tons of potential; the potential is happening.

 

Times have changed if new townhome developments in downtown CLE are creating controversy.  Downtown needs town-homes; everything can't be a high-rise.  

 

That said, would I want to live in a town home fronting Superior Avenue?  No. 

Edited February 14, 20196 yr by Oxford19

^ I have to agree. Given that Superior is far from inviting, and the location psychologically distant, this scale is understandably modest. The complex actually reminds me of residential we've seen sprout up ten years ago in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. For now I'm glad for any positive steps, even though this new stuff is in many aspects underwhelming.    

What is the building on the next street (St. Clair ) with the Rally Together sign.

18 minutes ago, simplythis said:

What is the building on the next street (St. Clair ) with the Rally Together sign.

I forget the name, but it is a data center