There's no doubt it's "safe", and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.  In it's defense I'll also say, it is tough to judge until all phases of that block are built out, as they all have different materials and will impact greatly the way the block looks.  That being said, I agree with gotribe, right now I'm most pleased that this looks to be a really quality construciton project.  And there's something to be said with that.  Is it a little bland? Yes, but it's also nice.  Also, don't forget the target market of this project.  There aren't too many young edgy people looking to spend 500+k on a condo right now in this city.  This particular portion of the development is mostly intended to lure empty nesting baby boomers back into downtown.  And my guess is an awful large percentage of that population thinks this is a beautiful building.

 

Remember.  Architecture is no different from art, music, and even food.  What's really exciting to one person, could be horrifying to another.  That's the beauty of it, there really is no right or wrong and everyone is entitled to their own valid opinion based on their tastes.  I think going "safe" is a very nice building block for where we're at right now in terms of downtown development.  There will be plenty of opportunities for pushing the envelope in the future.  Personally I'm most pleased with this project on: The quality of the development, it's sense of scale relating to it's surroundings, and solid urban planning principles... i mean what's the last building we had put up in this town that was truly built out to the street like this, hides parking underground AND in the middle of the block, hell they even got the city to alter that horrid 9 lane road with concrete bunkers to be pedestrian friendly... and all this on top of a surface lot.  That's a lot to like.

 

I totally agree! I understand that it's completely subjective. I'm just voicing my own opinions .. I'm certainly not pressing them on anyone. That's the last thing I want to do.

jpop... didn't think you were pressing anything... like i said i think that's the beauty of architecture.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong... or at least usually, unless you want to clad a turn of the century building in aluminum in which case you are so wrong i will send Jim Simone after you.

 

Also cle2032 I completely agree with you.  And I get a little confused at the attacking of FEB, because I think it employees the same principles as this.  I think it's impossible to create an entire neighborhood by one developer and not get this aesthetic.  You're essentially dropping a neighborhood down from outerspace.  Of course it's going to look a little manufactured.  As we grow as a city there will be plenty of opportunities for mixing in some cutting edge architecture in spot surface lots between existing buildings.  And I think that has potential to be REALLY exciting.  But I think that when we're discussing the "mega" projects (Avenue, Flats, Stark) this is what we're going to get. We'll call them "classy" buildings.  Classy = Nice = Safe... Not thrilling, but nice. And once we get more people in here we can start to evolve.

"In addition, what does the home you currently live in look like?    Is it an architectural masterpiece?"

 

MTS, has it ever occurred to you that not everybody thinks it's appropriate to throw credentials out there in some whim of self promotion.  I am an architect (although not yet registered), so I have an opinion about what is being designed in my city.  If you can't handle peoples' opinions, I don't what to tell you.  This has been one of the more tame dialogues in relation to Breuer Tower and a few others, so I don't really see what the problem is.

I personally hate the design of AD and what I've seen so far from FEB.  My opinion for FEB is based on the renderings that are close to what the project will be, and the track record of the design architects.  What else can we go on?  But, I'm glad that these types of projects are happening.  The developers just need to get the right architects in here to give this city what it deserves.  The UC Triangle Development should be the example other developers are striving for.  Contemporary, progressive design talent for a city that wants to be both.

I think people are more touchy about the Flats project because the Flats East Bank has (had) a pre-existing ambience what with the waterfront heritage, brick buildings, and lots of short term memories of hundreds of thousands of visitors.

 

The AD is a blank slate, a parking lot with zero history and no feeling of nostalgia is attached.

 

Plus, with the FEB project being on prime waterfront property, to me its much much more crucial to get that project "right."

 

I think Zaremba thinks it is something Cleveland hasnt seen, and although many cities have seen very similar style buildings built, (I know there a ton of similar ones build in DC the past few years) Cleveland hasnt so much.

 

That's the scary thing-we can't keep nurturing this sheltered, 5 years too late outlook on what a city should be or on what a building can be.

 

I really didn't intend to attack the AD design--I just wanted to know why it appeared that a lot of people are quick to attack the FEB renderings yet show little negative criticism towards the AD? Once we see some steel at the FEB sites maybe we'll all move on...

I am not a mod or anything, but can we move this over to architecture and preservation under something titled "downtown mega-development threads".  I hate checking a thread and not getting any info on the actual project. 

I am not a mod or anything, but can we move this over to architecture and preservation under something titled "downtown mega-development threads".  I hate checking a thread and not getting any info on the actual project. 

 

And I hate doing the moderating here because of it!

I agree with Surf on that.

"In addition, what does the home you currently live in look like?    Is it an architectural masterpiece?"

 

MTS, has it ever occurred to you that not everybody thinks it's appropriate to throw credentials out there in some whim of self promotion.  I am an architect (although not yet registered), so I have an opinion about what is being designed in my city.  If you can't handle peoples' opinions, I don't what to tell you.  This has been one of the more tame dialogues in relation to Breuer Tower and a few others, so I don't really see what the problem is.

I personally hate the design of AD and what I've seen so far from FEB.  My opinion for FEB is based on the renderings that are close to what the project will be, and the track record of the design architects.  What else can we go on?  But, I'm glad that these types of projects are happening.  The developers just need to get the right architects in here to give this city what it deserves.  The UC Triangle Development should be the example other developers are striving for.  Contemporary, progressive design talent for a city that wants to be both.

 

It wasn't a whim of self promotion I was asking a real question.  It was not a slam at anyone.  Why complain about this building?  You are capable of answer the question about design, construstion, etc.  Many of us here aren't. some of us are complaining about a building based on what training? 

 

Ironically, I posted pictures from DC, which included pictures from the west end.  People liked the buildings.  The Avenue District would fit in fine there.  Why is it that we like those buildings/neighborhood but say the AD is "bland" or not good enough?

As someone who has worked in the field of architecture for 9 years now and been involved in numerous projects, a lot of times 'cutting edge' comes down to money.  Sure if the developers had unlimited budgets, they could persue cutting edge design firms from around the world to inject designs in Cleveland we haven't experienced before.

 

That does not mean though that we shouldn't try to persue it on some level or settle for bland design.  I agree that we can't judge the FEB on some renderings taken from the 500' view.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is easier to make judgements on the AD project since it is well underway.  Sometimes every new project does not have to have cutting edge design to fit in with the surrounding vernacular.  I personally don't have a problem with the design of the AD project.  I think it will fit in nicely in the area.  Am I qualified to make that judgement because I'm in the field of architecture?  Maybe, maybe not but it is strictly my opinion which doesn't mean it is the 'right' design.

 

 

I don't think one needs credentials to say whether or not they like the aesthetic of a structure.  Some people like it; some don't.

 

I like it.

I like the AD design.  It is well proportioned, features mostly nice/warm materials, hides its parking and service areas, has ground level retail, and breaks up the bulk of the block well.  Architecture is not like art or food or music.  Architecture has to meet the practical needs of its intended users and has to weather decades, even centuries of changing tastes in the eyes of the public and the marketplace.  The last thing that should be important in architecture is titilating a small group of architectural magpies with "cutting edge" design gimmicks.

X you are correct in your comments on the functionality of architecture... I have a degree in the field... I was simply referring to the aesthetics, and relating it to art, music, etc.  People will always have different opinions based upon their tastes.  There is no real right or wrong in that regard.

^The last thing we need are forumers who attempt to titilate a small group of urbanohio magpies with cutting edge term selection gimmicks.

 

Practical needs for shelter could be considered a cave if you want to get down to basics.  But wouldn't it be nice to think that society has progressed enough to realize the importance of good design that looks forward with confidence, something that could have an impact on a self concious city like Cleveland?  But, let's keep selecting the City Architecture beige brick background building and hopefully in time the whole city will be invisible.

 

^The last thing we need are forumers who attempt to titilate a small group of urbanohio magpies with cutting edge term selection gimmicks.

 

lol- Alright, you got me! 

 

I'm trying to say that the functional aspects are the better part of design.  I could take or leave making some sort of architectural statement.  I don't think it is important to making a good city.  Look at Portland, Manhattan, or most medievel European cities.  Few of the buildings are making statements on their own.  Instead they speak as a group, and the message that you're someplace special is more powerful for it.  The few well placed monuments are icing on the cake.

"But wouldn't it be nice to think that society has progressed enough to realize the importance of good design that looks forward with confidence, something that could have an impact on a self concious city like Cleveland?"

 

I say this to anyone who is passionate about anything, and wants to be persuasive in their arguments - try to convince people that your passion has made you a happier and pleasant person. Doing that will make people stop and say "wow, their life is better because of that".

 

What probably won't win anyone to your side: talking sh!t about a competing firm (in a small market like Cleveland, and an even smaller design community - that can bite you in the @ss down the road); making condescending remarks about said firm that come across as envy and sour grapes; making similar remarks about developers (aka the people who could be paying your bills)... those are just a few that come to mind.

X, I see where you're coming from, I just think the "average" of the buildings could be raised.  I do enjoy the "cutting edge term selection gimmicks," by the way.

 

^I say nothing on this board that I wouldn't say in a conversation with anybody when asked what I think about the situation.

 

And by the way, my negative affinity for the mentioned firm is two fold.  First, the lead personality of said firm is the loudest mouth of them all in this city and can certainly stick up for himself, and has no problem venting his opinions of others, so in comparison I see this as rather tame.  Second I feel that projects like AD are pressed through the same meat grinder for no other reason than the efficiency of said firm, instead of being the stewart of the community that an architect should be.  Rant complete.

X you are correct in your comments on the functionality of architecture... I have a degree in the field... I was simply referring to the aesthetics, and relating it to art, music, etc. People will always have different opinions based upon their tastes. There is no real right or wrong in that regard.

 

We agree for the most part McCleveland.  Your comment just brought to mind my thoughts about that oft-made simile.

Hello from the new townhome! I'm currently sitting on my living room floor eating lunch and waiting for utility people. Sounds boring, but there's a lot of people watching to be had! There's the painter on his cherry-picker outside, the landscaping guys, some dudes showing off a yellow corvette across 14th at the union hall, and the window washers scaling the Charter One building. I'm watching you! ;)

Thankfully theres a Mr. Broccoli, or you may be out chatting a lot  :lol:.

Hello from the new townhome! I'm currently sitting on my living room floor eating lunch and waiting for utility people. Sounds boring, but there's a lot of people watching to be had! There's the painter on his cherry-picker outside, the landscaping guys, some dudes showing off a yellow corvette across 14th at the union hall, and the window washers scaling the Charter One building. I'm watching you! ;)

Pictures please!

Okay, how bizarre is it that I also saw the yellow corvette (speeding down Superior):

 

 

 

And what the h#ll, it's Friday (looks like Mr. Painter has some potential ;-) )

 

Pictures of an empty house or one with furniture and decor? It is empty currently until tomorrow!

I meant of the construction and moving going on around but MayDay posted a few.  I didn't realize that they were painting.  I assumed the pieces/materials would come in "color".  I wonder what the cost for maintenance will be?  Oh well thats what the AD HOA will have to figure out.  lol

 

Thanks MayDay!  How tall is that painter?

The strip siding is pre-colored, but the sheets on the bay windows are painted. Since it is Hardie-Plank, it shouldn't have to be painted for 10-15 years. And damnit, I can't see the pics on my phone!

"Thanks MayDay!  How tall is that painter?"

 

:? I have no idea and I wasn't about to check him out, besides as Positive K said - "I got a man!"

 

Now back on topic!!!  :whip:

Pictures of an empty house or one with furniture and decor? It is empty currently until tomorrow!

 

Before and after! :)

Okay, I'll snap some today and then more in a couple weeks. Hopefully I'll get a chance to post them soon, but no guarantees since my personal belongings are almost all boxed right now.

Take your time.  If I can get away with posting FEB photos nearly a week after I said I would, you can get away with that excuse. :)

Doc Broc

 

Are you excited?  I mean you're a part of a new chapter in Cleveland resurgence.

Of course I'm excited! By the way, I checked out the painter for you. He's probably about 6' tall.

Of course I'm excited! By the way, I checked out the painter for you. He's probably about 6' tall.

Good I hope your recordign your experience.  6'?  perfect size!  lol  ok...back on topic!

Positive K!!!!  lol  I doubt many on here know who that is...but GREAT reference Mayday!  lol

In the PD today:

 

DEVELOPMENT

 

As the Avenue rises in Cleveland, the city's future looks up

Saturday, July 19, 2008

Steven Litt

Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

Cleveland developer Nathan Zaremba is used to being asked what he's drinking these days.

 

He's building the first phase of a $300 million housing development in downtown Cleveland in an economic slump, with credit tightening, inflation threatening and gas at $4 a gallon.

 

But he was quite chipper during a recent tour of the partially completed portions of his Avenue development.

 

More at

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/1216456417121080.xml&coll=2

Hey man, I like my drab townhome. Sigh. I would like my blinds to be installed though, cause the prospect of peeping toms is kinda creeping me out...

that was cool to read -- way to go litt for throwing zaremba some more generally positive press. the avenue projects certainly deserve it and then some. i even agree with his nitpicks about the trees and the a bit drab part, but so what its amazing and will look good and really help pump up downtown residential. i wish zaremba the best of luck with the with uptown project too.

Okey dokey Ipsy, here are the pre-madness pics.  I'll post more after we get all of our stuff unpacked and such.

I like the paint color of the main floor.  The stone tiles look nice as well.  Did you put a light stain on the floors or is that just the way the picture was taken?  They look darker than before.

No stain, same as before.  Different time of day I guess.  And, for your constant remodeling side -

 

The tile is called Rajah and the color is Autumn

Paint -

Kitchen - Sherwin Williams Svelte Sage

Rest of the house - Sherwin Williams Universal Khaki and Wool Skein.

 

I see the UrbanOhio workstation!

Okey dokey Ipsy, here are the pre-madness pics. I'll post more after we get all of our stuff unpacked and such.

 

Wow.  That's all I can say.

 

Thanks for that. :)

Thanks, and no problem ipsilon, and KJP, where exactly is the UO workstation?  I've been wondering since MayDay seems to be able to just pop up over in that area pretty easily....  I was starting to think he could vaporize himself or something.

 

;-)

 

I work one block from 1211 St. Clair, so that's why it's easy for me to get pics. :-)

Is your bathroom counter "soapstone"?

Is your bathroom counter "soapstone"?

 

Corian.

 

;-)

 

I work one block from 1211 St. Clair, so that's why it's easy for me to get pics. :-)

 

It would've been cooler just to say you were Maleficent and you could vaporize yourself or appear in a ball of fire or whatever it exactly is that she does ;)

The UrbanOhio workstation is on your counter in front of the window....  :-D

 

Oooo, I thought you meant outside the front of my townhouse in the picture where you can see buildings :-D.  Yes, that is the UO workstation, except for it wasn't that day because I still don't have internet at home....  AT&T and Time Warner are dragging their heels. 

 

At any rate, back on topic!  The landscaping is going in today (and probably for the next couple of days) 

AT&T and Time Warner are dragging their heels. 

 

Seriously, MTS- hop to it!

Gorgeous place docbroc